Need a little framing advice

[Roger Feeley]

I know this isn't exactly a woodworking question but I'm an optimist.

I want to put a door through a load bearing wall. It's in the back of a small closet and will open up about 230 square feet of storage over my garage.

Normally, I would remove a stud, put up a double 2x6 header and a couple of jack studs and thats what I would like to do here. The problem is the top plates. The builder (grrrr) put the splices between the top plates about 1.5" apart right over where I want to take out the stud.

let me elaborate: We have two top plates. If you have to use two pieces of material, you can do that but the joint should be over a stud and nowhere near the joint in the other top plate. In this case, they are over a stud but right together. To cover the error, the builder (grrrr) simple put in three studs instead of one.

Now, what's on top of the top plate. In this case, it's an upstairs closet wall that is supporting roof rafters. So our stud (ok, three studs) is supporting a rafter. In this case, it's supporting two rafters that are sistered together.

To my question: Can I remove the three studs, put in a double 2x6 header and a couple of jack studs? The rafter supports the roof and goes right through the peak of an intersecting roof. It's a pretty important rafter.

[Don Alexander]

double 2x6 header to replace a 3 stud load bearing post ................ don't do it you will regret it

since this apparently supports a significant load you would be well advised to consult a structural engineer before removing anything ..... when 2 rafters are sistered together you can be sure that they are necessary and support a substantial amount of weight i would be hestitant to entrust that load to a header without being 100% sure that the header was more than enough to support the load any sagging is likely to be a serious problem with far reaching consequences; in this case an ounce of prevention is worth thousands of dollars of cure

[Sam Murdoch]

Agree with Don - this requires a study by someone closer to the project than we here in the world wide web. Worth a consult with a structural engineer. A wise man once wrote - "i would be hestitant to entrust that load to a header without being 100% sure that the header was more than enough to support the load".

[Dennis Ford]

Whatever size header you end up with; installing it may be tricky. It sounds like you will need a temporary support wall during the demolition.

[Brian Effinger]

To figure this header correctly, you need more information. First, you would need to calculate the load that is on the wall from the rafters (including possible snow load) & maybe ceiling joists. Second, the span of the header is important. As for the splices in the top plates being too close, it shouldn't be a problem. You could always use metal straps to tie the two halves of each plate together. A photo of the framing may help too.

One more thing to consider - is the ceiling of your garage covered with fire rated drywall? If it isn't, you might be introducing a building code violation here.

[Rob Russell]

I agree that this is a question for a civil engineer (and my brother is one, so I know this is the sort of question that they can answer).

Some things to consider and not get to worried about:
1) The closest above this palce where you want to put in the doorway is already partially spreading the load somewhat. That means it's not like those 2 sistered rafters are sitting on plate joints, unless that upstairs closes was framed so the stud was right on top of the joints. If that's the case - yeah, grrrr.
2) Instead of a pair of 2x6's, consider a 3" x 5 1/2" microlam. That is going to be a LOT stiffer than standard dimensional lumber and will probably carry the load you're looking at.

I'd verify that with a CE.

[james glenn]

What Brian said above is correct, there is a lot to figure for the loading here. The double rafters are supporting some very important roof loading and my guess is that those triple studs are transferring that load so a foundation wall or more ganged studs in the wall below. If you add a header to pick up that load, you might have to add studs in a wall below to transfer that load to the foundation/footing.
If not, if could bend the top plate of the wall below and cause sagging.

You really need to have a structural engineer or architect come look at it all and run the calculations. The last thing you want is a sag in the header after a few years and a door that binds.

He is also right about the code issue. Here in NY, as in most states, the garage area must be separated from the rest of the house by a 1hr. Fire Partition. This means 1/2" or 5/8" fire rated gwb on both sides, taped and sealed. The door must also be rated.

What you want can be done, but not easily. And it isn't just swapping out some studs for a header.

This is a great example of my life's song. 'Nothing's Easy'

[Roger Feeley]

Good advice all. I guess I will have to fork over the dough for an engineer. My experience with engineers in the past hasn't been all that good. I have always had an engineer look at any house I was thinking about buying as a part of my inspection regime (general inspector, roof, engineer, grading pro, and termite). The engineers reports read to me like a lot of CYA stuff with what I really wanted to know buried in the fine print.



Do you guys have any advice about finding an engineer?

Regarding the three studs: my assumtion in looking at is that the builder is covering up a mistake. The joint in the two top plates are not supposed to be right together and I guessed that the three studs are to make up for that.

Regarding the sistered rafter: Honestly, I don't know why they did that. It could be really important but, considering all of the other bone-headed things done in the construction of this house, it could be something silly.

I guess that's what the engineer is for.

[james glenn]

1. Try to find an engineer or architect that works for themselves or a real small firm. They will give a better price and information, usually.
If you know any contractors, ask them for names.

2. Where are you located?

[Matt Ellis]

I'm an engineer here in GA, and if I was checking this, I would need to measure the span of the double rafter, the span of the proposed header and a sketch of the associated framing. Load estimates are pretty simple based on the materials used for residential construction. Snow/roof live loads are a look up, and are based on your geographic area. Unless you're in Alaska and have a flat roof with unheated space below, 20 psf DL and 20-30 psf LL will cover most situations.

I like Brian's suggestion of using plate steel/strap to reinforce the top plate. Simpson makes a 1 1/2" widex16 gauge product that would be perfect for this application. I would center the strap up on the splice, and lap it 18" or so each way, both sides of the plate, over both splices.

-matt

[glenn bradley]

The engineers reports read to me like a lot of CYA stuff with what I really wanted to know buried in the fine print.

You can thank all the lawyers for that. No one dares give an honest opinion anymore for fear of being held financially responsible in court for who-knows-what. My apologies to all our lawyer members. I'm sure you are all great guys. :)

[Roger Feeley]

I'm in Overland Park, KS. It's a suburb on the south side of the Kansas City area.

[Roger Feeley]

I would love to join in on the lawyer bashing but my daughter is one and I have to go easy on the lawyer jokes.

[Jim Andrew]

I like the metal strap idea too. You didn't say what size door you plan to install, is height an issue? If it were mine, I would brace the building to hold it in place, install the straps, and put the biggest header you can under the plates. A double 2 x 10 or 12, if your door will fit, nail plywood on both sides of the opening and then put your door in. This is a relatively small opening, if you can hold the roof up while you work on it, and over do the framing you will be fine.

[Roger Feeley]

The door will be just 30" so all I want to do is remove one stud. Like I said in the original post, this would normally be an easy thing to do. double 2x6 with a piece of 1/2" plywood in the middle should be more than sufficient. I slammed on the brakes when I saw those three studs. They aren't sistered together which made me think that they weren't planned. Frankly, I think the two extras are there to cover up a screw up in the top plates where the joints are improperly close together. On the other hand, we have the sistered rafters....

Height is an issue because the top plate is just 6' off the floor because of the roof framing. So I'm starting with a custom short door and a bigger header will just make that worse.

I have a guy coming over today to take a look. It's really hard to just wait. I want to get on with this project!

[Brian Effinger]

Is the guy an architect or engineer? Let us know what he says. Since you said you haven't had the best experience with engineers, I, or someone here, can help you determine if they are full of it or not.

BTW, I'm not an engineer, only a lowly architect. :D

[phil harold]

I know this isn't exactly a woodworking question but I'm an optimist.


Now, what's on top of the top plate. In this case, it's an upstairs closet wall that is supporting roof rafters. So our stud (ok, three studs) is supporting a rafter. In this case, it's supporting two rafters that are sistered together.

To my question: Can I remove the three studs, put in a double 2x6 header and a couple of jack studs? The rafter supports the roof and goes right through the peak of an intersecting roof. It's a pretty important rafter.
How big of a door?
I am a fan of overkill in framing remodel situations
If it was my house and I needed a 3-0 door I would
strap the joint
Install an 1.75 x 9.5 lvl that extends 2 studs past the opening on either side with what I call laser lags (http://wedo.hillmangroup.com/item/wood/e-construction-lag-screw-star-drive-ceramic-coated/47871?)add jacks under the lvl
then remove triple stud
add 2x6 header and jacks
block sheath and turn the upper closet wall into a box beam

it is over kill but it transfers the weight to more than one spot
There has been now mention of footings under this wall...

without pictures this what I wood do in my house

is the closet wall above his tripled stud aligned with each other or perpendicular?

without actually seeing it all we do is assume
and you know what happens when we a assume?!?!!


oh yea and engineer my be cheaper

[Justin Jump]

I agree with all the comments, hire an engineer, and go overkill......

However, if it were my house, I would probably put in a header, as shown in my attachment.

Build a temporary wall to distribute the load while you cut out the exisiting.

Do you have 8' foot ceilings, then if you do, you have plenty of room to put in a double 2x10 header, with a 1/2" piece of plywood sandwiched in between, glued and screwed, or glued and nailed together.

For a 30" door, you will need a rough opening 32" x 80", so even at 8' ceilings, you'll need to add some framing to get to the 82" r.o.

If you dont have 8' ceilings, plan it out, but I wouldnt go below a 2x8 doubled header.

The 2x10 or 2x8 doubled header with the 1/2" plywood is done to get to the same dimension as a 2x4 - 3 1/2".....if you have 2x6 construction, then you need to add to it to get to the same thickness - 5 1/2"......

If you're understanding all of this, then you know what to do, if not, hire a framer, he/she should be able to accomplish this for you in less than a day.....

[Justin Jump]

just a small correction - your r.o. would need to be 32" x 82", not 80".....

[Justin Jump]

sorry - just saw your note on 6' to the top plate.....thats a really short door, even with a 2x6 header.......

Looks like your going outside to get to your shop!

[David Sharp]

The two rafters may be sistered so the decking would have something to nail to. You might consider using steel for the header or in the header to make up the height issue.

[Mike De Luca]

A picture would be helpful...

[Roger Feeley]

Thanks to everybody. I called a very experienced handyman friend and he pointed out that it was easy to wiggle all three studs I was worried about and therefore, they weren't carrying much weight. I had the header made, a saw, framing nailer and stud material handy. 10 minutes later the job was done.

I worry too much.

[Sam Murdoch]

Thanks to everybody. I called a very experienced handyman friend and he pointed out that it was easy to wiggle all three studs I was worried about and therefore, they weren't carrying much weight. I had the header made, a saw, framing nailer and stud material handy. 10 minutes later the job was done.

I worry too much.

Yikes, we just had to be there :D

[Phil Maddox]

A double 2x6 would almost never be strong enough for a load bearing wall. I wouldn't worry about the splicing in the plates, if you have the right header, it won't make a difference. The double rafter thing usually means that there is a pretty good load at that point. What is the maximum width of the header you get in this place? You mention 2x6 but I'm not sure that is all the room you have or just what you are used to doing. If you have enough room, like 12", you can get double 2x12 with plywood sandwiched between, that'll carry just about anything. a pair of 1 3/4 microlams would also be sweet.

If the load is severe, the engineer may have you doing something below the jack studs you install to hold up the header. You are transferring the load to them and they may need something directly under them to carry the load to the foundation. Probably not.

Good luck!

[Todd Crawford]

Better than the strap idea would be a 3" steel plate spanning the joint in your double top plate on each side. The moment of inertia on a plate turned on it's side is greater than a plate laying flat. Span the joint 18" in each direction. And use an engineered header (LVL) instead of 2x6's. You'll also want to check to see what your jack studs will be supported by under the floor to make sure the load is transferred correctly.

[Jim Andrew]

Why don't you guys back up a step and think about the location of this opening. It is in the attic. Most of the load of the building would be under the floor, not above the ceiling.