Opinions on the Hammer C3 31

[John Coloccia]

Anyone have any opinions on this machine? I'm seriously thinking about selling off my JP combo machine, my SawStop contractor saw, a motorcycle and some guitars, and replacing it all with one of these guys.It will take up less space, I think, and probably fits my needs a bit better. I need to pick up a shaper anyhow, and I use practically no sheet goods so no outrigger is needed.

I'm looking for a headache free solution that will give me high precision without constant fiddling. Is this it?

Also, does Hammer/Felder sell at list price or is that up to the local sales rep. I'm trying to get an idea for what these things really cost.

Thanks much.

[Neil Brooks]

I'm looking for a headache free solution that will give me high precision without constant fiddling. Is this it?


Go neander.




j/k ;)

[Jerome Hanby]

Isn't that like posting "buy a router" in the neander forum <eg>?


Go neander.




j/k ;)

[John Coloccia]

Actually, given that I work in the shop every day, all day, including most weekends, I'm willing to bet I do more hand tool work than most of the neanders. LOL. Most is hand tool work, actually, but it would be nutty for me to rough out with anything but power tools and routers unless I really didn't want to make any money :)

I need to do something to gain space back. As I'm getting a little busier, I'm running into rather mundane problem like "where do I store guitars in progress and customer repairs". Good question. Nowhere? That's my answer right now and that needs to change. I think a compact combo machine will go a long way to helping me, especially if I add a shaper....I would have done it already, but WHERE?

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi John, which J/P do you own/

I have a Hammer A3-31 and a B3 Winner in a townhouse basement.

I like having the saw/shaper separate from the jointer planer as it fits better in my shop. The J/P fits well in a long narrow area, while the saw needs to be in more of a square area.

I have the 49 inch sliding table which crosscuts a sheet of wood, yet the saw is the same size as a cabinet saw in small rip configuration.

The outrigger detaches in about 30 seconds to make the saw small, or attaches in 30 seconds to make the saw large, however if you don't want it, it can be added later at home as an accessory.

I like having the tilting spindle shaper as opposed to the fixed spindle machine.

The machine will be accurate and precise, as well as safer than a cabinet saw design.

Add a power feeder and the shaper is terrific.

Prices are slightly negotiable, Felder is an excellent company to deal with...............Regards, Rod.

[David Kumm]

don't forget to check out the used market. There have been some really nice combos for sale recently. Many combos are low usage machines. A like new Felder 700 or MM Elite can be had for about the same as a new Hammer. Dave

[Van Huskey]

I don't know if even the highest end Felder is gonna cover the jobs of the guitars or the motorcycle... :D I guess it can have wheels and does have motors and to some makes beautiful music.

[John Coloccia]

Well, I don't ride anymore since I moved to Connecticut. The people around here drive like nuts. As far as guitars, I have more guitars than I know what to do with....I really only play my own now, anyhow....I suppose that's as it should be or I need to start making design changes on mine, so I'm trying to get rid of some of the high dollar ones that aren't getting played. :)

Rod: I responded to you about my Jet JJP-12, but the comment appears to have either been lost or deleted for some reasons. I hope it's just a glitch and not a mod deleting my posts for some reason.

Anyhow, I have a serious love/hate relationship with the Jet. When it works, it works well...I just set it up again yesterday and it's very nice. When it drifts, and it drifts often, I hate it and it's very difficult to get working well again. I like the quick change overs...certainly better than the Hammer....probably the best anywhere, actually. Flip two levers, lift (both tables lift at the same time) and flip the dust hood. It takes me but 10 seconds to fully convert. I hate the fence but I like that I don't have to remove it. It works for me well enough because I never joint at anything but 90 degrees, but if I did ever want to move it, I would be VERY unhappy...it was a bear to get perfect.

It doesn't drift during changeovers as I expected it might. It just drifts because...I don't know....it's not build solidly enough? I don't think so...it feels like a tank. I think it's just an immature design with some whoopsies and annoyances. You DO need to crank it down pretty hard when you switch to jointing. I put a dial indicator on it and found the point where the indicator stops moving, and it's pretty darn tight. I don't care what I break/bend/whatever....it's no more useful out of alignment than it is broken :) There's no real guidance for how hard to clamp it down, so maybe I'm actually doing it right....

The planer is practically without snipe, assuming you control it going in and out (slight bit of upward pressure feeding it in and coming out). Even without that, the snipe is practically nothing and probably as good as anything else you can buy. I've never done a darn thing to the planer. It's as it was when I uncrated it and it's been perfect ever since. Very nice. I almost considered just buying another small jointer for edge jointing, since it's the jointer that gives me headaches, and immediately realized what a stupid idea that was.

Anyhow, it's not a bad tool by any means and many JJP-12 owners are very happy, but I wonder how it stacks up against Hammer A3-26, for example, which is only a few bucks more (but it's 10" as opposed to Jet's 12" if that matters), and I wonder how it stacks up against the A3-31 (12") which is about 30% more.

How do you like you A3-31? Do you get perfect joints and do you have to fiddle with it ever?

[Mike Archambeau]

Anyone have any opinions on this machine? I'm seriously thinking about selling off my JP combo machine, my SawStop contractor saw, a motorcycle and some guitars, and replacing it all with one of these guys.It will take up less space, I think, and probably fits my needs a bit better. I need to pick up a shaper anyhow, and I use practically no sheet goods so no outrigger is needed.

I'm looking for a headache free solution that will give me high precision without constant fiddling. Is this it?

Also, does Hammer/Felder sell at list price or is that up to the local sales rep. I'm trying to get an idea for what these things really cost.

Thanks much.

Sell the TS. Sell the motorcycles. Both sales will lead to a longer life.

THEN, get a good bandsaw. Keep the JP combo (you would be getting this combo if you bought the C31 so why spend the money a second time?) A good bandsaw will have a footprint smaller than your TS. Get the shaper, and spend the money you save on the power feeder, it will help you keep your fingers. You will end up with fewer changeovers this way. Happy woodworking!

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi John, the new Hammer has both tables flip up as a unit, not two operations as on the older machines.

Mine has never come out of adjustment, seems to be typical for the line, everyone I've spoken to only has good things to say.

For you it would come down to shop layout, to use a five function combo you have to have a square, larger shop.

If you can put the J/P along a wall, the separate saw/shaper can have the right side against a wall also as the cut piece is on the left. Saves a lot of shop space.........Rod.

[John Coloccia]

Hi John, the new Hammer has both tables flip up as a unit, not two operations as on the older machines.

Mine has never come out of adjustment, seems to be typical for the line, everyone I've spoken to only has good things to say.

For you it would come down to shop layout, to use a five function combo you have to have a square, larger shop.

If you can put the J/P along a wall, the separate saw/shaper can have the right side against a wall also as the cut piece is on the left. Saves a lot of shop space.........Rod.

Actually, my J/P is along a wall now and it's taking up space I need to free up for storage. Because of how it's designed, the small combo machine takes up a LOT less space than my 36" table saw, outfeed/storage table and J/P against the wall. Lots of wasted space considering I'm typically ripping items under 20", and usually more like under 10". The footprint is actually less than the TS and outfeed, plus I get a shaper and J/P.

The only thing I really loose is the router table in the TS. It's really only a problem for some of the pattern routing I do that requires a 1/2" cutter to get into the tighter curves. Not sure I can do that on a shaper.....can I? I don't know. I can always just do it with a handheld router, or just build another small router table dedicated just for that.

[Peter Aeschliman]

As a fellow Sawstop owner, I thought I'd just raise the safety considerations... i have no bias either way, but it's something to consider.

Without any accessories (or the larger capacity slider) on the Hammer, the Sawstop is a safer saw for rip cuts.

On the flip side, if the C3 31 positions the power feeder (assuming you spring for the feeder) in such a way that you can use it for shaping, ripping, AND jointing, then I think switching to the C3 31 would make your shop much safer overall since you'd gain safety for shaping/routing and jointing operations, and your ripping operation wouldn't involve your hands (making the safety of the brake system unnecessary).

I can't tell how the power feeder gets positioned when you use the hinged fold-down accessory... so you'd have to talk to Felder's salespeople to figure that out. If you do happen to figure that out, please fill us in... that would make me seriously consider selling my PCS and Laguna jointer/planer, and getting rid of my router table!

[Eric McCune]

John,

I have the cf531. Couldn't be happier with the performance and how it fits in my 16x18 shop. It takes some getting use to, but I find I'm planning my work better and actually get more done even with the switch over times.

The fit and finish is exceptional. I can't imagine working without a slider. Straight line ripping and dead accurate cross cuts makes work much more efficient.

[Mike Archambeau]

lots of wasted space considering i'm typically ripping items under 20", and usually more like under 10".
.

band saw!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ryan Mooney]

I like the quick change overs...certainly better than the Hammer....probably the best anywhere, actually. Flip two levers, lift (both tables lift at the same time) and flip the dust hood. It takes me but 10 seconds to fully convert.

Heh, that actually is spot on for describing my A3-31 turnovers (minus moving the table up and down). I have the new style with the tables tied in the back. Basically flip two levers and lift. The reverse is flip the stop out of the way, lower, push down and lock the two levers. I believe that the fence was also improved and now adjusts/locks from the middle (I have no complaints about the fence on mine so far). I honestly haven't had it long enough nor used it hard enough to give you meaningful lifespan feedback.. but so far its been great. I haven't had any measurable snipe in either mode, the turnover is relatively speedy and overall I really just love the machine. I also got the "digital gauge" for setting the planer depth which is really really handy (actually haven't calibrated it, just use it for repeatability - note the size and you can get right back where you were before), its much more accurate that I am with the pointer indicator.

It can "bump" a little on the infeed (kind of like you describe), but doesn't seem to on the outfeed - and the infeed is more me not feeding flat (when I feed perfectly flat it seems 100% ok). I sometimes get a slight ripple from it in jointer mode, but not meaningful in planer mode - so I suspect that its because I'm feeding to fast. In planer mode there is a wee ripple but its small enough that only a couple of passes with 220 grit or a smoothing plane removes all evidence (definitely glue ready, not quite finish ready).

I have no idea if the JP on the C3 is basically the same or not (it looks the same, but .. heh).

I also have a B3 with the 79" slider and the 1100mm (~44") outrigger. The slider and outrigger do take a fair bit of space. I suspect that for instrument making you may well be just as happy or happier with the shorter slider as I suspect that you are mostly working with shorter stock? From what I can tell the shorter slider allows you to use the machine somewhat more easily like a traditional as you don't have as much extrusion sticking out the back with the table in the locked position. One feature I'm really glad I bought is the "heavy duty" felder style bar fence, its substantially heavier than the aluminum hammer fence. I also like "high/low" feature on the fence compared to the more traditional Bies style, mostly mine stays in "low" mode as it allows you to get in and use push sticks, etc.. much safer without worrying as much about them getting caught between the fence and the blade. I didn't get the fine adjust but am considering it - if I can justify it to myself at some point :rolleyes:, its not hard to dial in pretty close without, but.. hehe.. The outrigger is like the worlds best mitering setup (ok maybe not, but I want to see the manual one that's better :D - maybe the felder digital or equivalent), you really can set it to fractions of a degree accurately and repeatably. I often slide the fence back to behind the blade and use it as a stop for repeatable ripping (unless the piece is short enough then I use the flip stops on the outrigger - also very useful, get a second flip stop and you can have two preset offcut positions which is pretty sweet if you're half as disorganized as I am).

One possible downside compared to your current setup is that the slider is just a wee hair higher than the table. This means that for ripping narrow pieces in "traditional saw" mode (not using the slider) in order to get them 100% square you really want to cut them a hair wide and either take two passes or run it back through the planer to thickness and shave the (very) slight bevel off. Various fixes have been proposed for this - the simplest being to put a strip (or two) of UHMW tape on the table so that its leveled with the slider (haven't tried this yet.. again.. next time I'm doing that...).

Not in love with the ripping shoe, overpriced for what it is imho, planning on making my own that rides closer to the edge of the slide eventually.. (likely will get done about when I really need it, hard to justify any time otherwise).

I would consider a power feeder mandatory for the shaper, I don't use the shaper much because of the lack (been watching for one used locally with little luck). I suspect that you could use the power feeder on the jointer as well to improve the consistency of the cut quality to similar to the planer. I don't personally see as much value with the TS feature, but that's probably my lack of imagination.

Also consider joining the FOG and ask any specific questions you have over there, lots of help that way (and I spent a fair bit of time reading past posts there before buying as well). Getting the unofficial survival guide is probably worth it if you spring for the machine.

It appears that Felder has periodic sales, although I don't know the frequency.. and also often has woodworking show discounts (the AWFS discounts last year were pretty good if I recall correctly - no guarantee of same this year obviously).

On thing to add on is tooling, all your existing saw blades will need to be re-bored or replaced (also not that the dado feature is an option on the machine, requires special blade). I didn't get any blades with my machine by default, but ordered a hammer rip and cc blade with the machine until I decided what I wanted. The Tenryu cut quality is quite a bit better than the hammer "standard quality" blades for around the same price. Lots of people have made their own ZCI's (I haven't yet - need to soon, finally ordered a dado blade today) and they don't look that hard but are kind of weird and special. Not in love with the default plastic insert so once I make one I'll probably do 4-5 at the same time to be able to replace the stock one (the dado option comes with one laminated wood one I'm saving as a template). Also the stock knives on the J/P are .. not as good as the cobalt ones you can order separate (~$70 a set), although that's moot if you go spiral.

Is it actually true you don't have a bandsaw as others are implying? That would be a tough call all right!

Ok I've already said way more than I'd planned. Shutting up now.

[David Kumm]

Have you checked out the MM combo on CL? Illinois. Dave

[John Coloccia]

Is it actually true you don't have a bandsaw as others are implying? That would be a tough call all right!



I have a G0514X2. I thought briefly about replacing the TS with a BS entirely, but there's really no reason to. If I could only have one, I would only have a bandsaw, no doubt, but that's not my situation.

BTW, for ripping narrow pieces, why not pull the fence back (so it doesn't pinch at the blade) and clamp the work to the sliding table, and then slice pieces off like that? When I want narrow strips off my table saw, I peel them off the left wide of the blade, but it's even more convenient with a slider because you call pull the fence back and peel them off the right side, never having to reset the fence. I would think that the slider should be much easier and safer than any table saw.

The only time I could see the slider getting your hands anywhere near the blade is if you're working with tiny pieces, but I wouldn't do that on my SawStop either. I'd either use my bandsaw and clean it up by hand or simply find a bigger piece to work with.

Thank you for your very thoughtful comments, by the way.

[Ryan Mooney]

I have a G0514X2. I thought briefly about replacing the TS with a BS entirely, but there's really no reason to. If I could only have one, I would only have a bandsaw, no doubt, but that's not my situation.

So basically every one is channeling Van and working on the to many bandsaws is never enough theory :D



BTW, for ripping narrow pieces, why not pull the fence back (so it doesn't pinch at the blade) and clamp the work to the sliding table, and then slice pieces off like that? When I want narrow strips off my table saw, I peel them off the left wide of the blade, but it's even more convenient with a slider because you call pull the fence back and peel them off the right side, never having to reset the fence. I would think that the slider should be much easier and safer than any table saw.


Yep I do that as well... Using the rip fence as a stop for pieces clamped on the slider does work really well (as you noted slid back so its behind the blade) - I've actually been thinking that a short rip fence would be handy for that, but if I got everything that looked handy, we'd be short on groceries :rolleyes:. However.. I've had a few cases where I was cutting some thinner pieces that were to narrow to clamp on the slider (and yes probably should have used the BS but.. well... heh). The board actually has to be relatively wide (?4"+? or thereabouts) with the stock setup (the rip shoe is a fair ways from the blade). There are a few parallel rip jigs (most do angles as well) that folks have put pictures/descriptions of on the FOG photobucket that look pretty useful for this sort of task that I haven't tried yet and would likely work better.

[John Coloccia]

So basically every one is channeling Van and working on the to many bandsaws is never enough theory :D


Well, I am lusting after a Minimax MM16, but I would dedicate it to resawing, rips and other straight cuts. I would either keep the Grizzly or sell it and pick up a smaller bandsaw dedicated to curve cutting.

[David Kumm]

Well, I am lusting after a Minimax MM16, but I would dedicate it to resawing, rips and other straight cuts. I would either keep the Grizzly or sell it and pick up a smaller bandsaw dedicated to curve cutting.

The two bandsaw idea is pretty efficient and doesn't take up a lot of room. My big saw has a biesemeyer fence and a 1" Lenox blade. The small one a1/4 bimetal with a Kreig fence. Allows for two setups which seem to get used together a lot. Dave

[Jamie Buxton]

I have a first-generation A3-31, about twelve years old. I use it a lot. (I generate one 32 gallon bag of J/P shavings every ten days or so.) In those twelve years, I've tweaked the jointer table alignment three times. I dunno what causes the misalignment. I just notice that it is off, so I correct it.

[Ryan Mooney]

There are a few parallel rip jigs (most do angles as well) that folks have put pictures/descriptions of on the FOG photobucket that look pretty useful for this sort of task that I haven't tried yet and would likely work better.

Recently posted on the FOG, Brian Lamb generously took some pictures to show how he uses the airtight clamps and a parallel rip jig on his slider. Pretty cool.

http://youtu.be/4xcjWUX4QqM
(http://youtu.be/4xcjWUX4QqM)
http://youtu.be/M4BB5IonNvM

[Chris Tsutsui]

The biggest hindsight for going with a C3 31 for me would be as follows:

1. Transition time between functions. Will this interrupt your work flow? Then consider splitting your combo into 2 machines like Rod, or perhaps 3 machines by isolating the shaper... etc... If you don't mind making the transitions between functions then a space saving combo is the way to go.
2. Are you extremely nit picky about 0.001" tolerances because although Hammer is a cream of the crop machine, it's not going to be perfect. Felder is a step closer to engineering perfection than Hammer. Some people can't imagine how their machine could be improved, but when they pay attention to detail and work with a better machine and the details becomes obvious which makes up for the price difference. :)
3. You must pay extreme attention to detail during setup, It's manadatory to spend the 8 hours or so getting your adjustments perfect because the machine will hold its settings and reward you with excellent craftsmanship.

My dream is to own Felder quality separates, not Hammer. However budget steers me to Hammer and space constraints forces me into some combo machines. Ultimately I let logic decide what machines to buy, not emotions and brand names... If you find a used high quality machine of a different brand then go for it. :)

For me, the shaper would be one tool that takes the most setup time, therefore I'd like to have that separate. I remember setting up an old delta shaper with feeder took me a long time and several sample cuts untill I could get it to make the cut I want. I don't really want to ever run into setting up the shaper and then having to take it down just to use another function.

Converting between a jointer and planer on an A3-31 takes me about 30 seconds on average depending on how fast I want to crank the table to lower it or raise it. I somewhat miss having a separate jointer but it makes me think about the build process more to minimize changeovers and add efficiency to your work flow.

FYI, I have the Hammer mobile bases on both my K3 winner and older A3-31, and my A3-31 is taller by perhaps a 1/4" than the K3 winner. Therefore I can joint and plane boards so the outfeed puts the board on the tablesaw extension table.

Oh, and the digital readout dial for the Planer is one of those "must have" accessories.

If you can't choose whether a combo is for you, Felder can arrange for you to try out one at a nearby owners shop. I've demo'd my saw for a potential buyer and it's always a good time talking about tools and woodworking. :)

[Larry Edgerton]

I shouldn't even ask, but what is this motorcycle that you speak of..........

Larry

[Greg Portland]

don't forget to check out the used market. There have been some really nice combos for sale recently. Many combos are low usage machines. A like new Felder 700 or MM Elite can be had for about the same as a new Hammer. Dave
Agreed, although those may not be an option given his space limitations (depends on the model).

[trevor adair]

I have been looking at this same thing for the last 2 months, as well as the MM. I am fortunate to live in MD 40 mins from the Delaware location so I was able to drive up and see the Hammer and some of the Felder machines. I am going back and forth because the C3 31 offers very little in the way of discount and once I started adding accessories I was over my budget. I am however still looking at the JP combo and separate K3 winner saw, The JP combo currently has $600 off and the K3 has $2,624 off putting the two of them under 6K combined. This makes my situation different as I am not so sure I will use the shaper much.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Trevor, I can't imagine not having the shaper, especially with the sliding table.

Template copying, edge mouldings, raised panels, cope and stick.......On and on.

You can even use sanding drums on the shaper..........................Rod.

[trevor adair]

I have never had a shaper, have the full Kreg table, lift etc that i get a lot of use from.. A shaper may very well be in my future..

Don't want the hijack the thread, I commented because I did not see anyone mention the deep discounts Hammer has going on the saws and JP combos right now.. I am dealing with a guy in Delaware named Geoff Doubet.. Very patient and has been a lot of help with the 10 different quotes I have had him do for me in the last two weeks

[John Coloccia]

I have never had a shaper, have the full Kreg table, lift etc that i get a lot of use from.. A shaper may very well be in my future..

Don't want the hijack the thread, I commented because I did not see anyone mention the deep discounts Hammer has going on the saws and JP combos right now.. I am dealing with a guy in Delaware named Geoff Doubet.. Very patient and has been a lot of help with the 10 different quotes I have had him do for me in the last two weeks

He actually called me tonight and is trying to set me up with a local owner in the area that's been accommodating to tire kickers like me. It's going to be a while until I can really consider bringing something like this in. Just the logistics of selling my current table saw and jointer/planer, bringing in a new machine, learning to be efficient on it, and doing it all while not interrupting my work seems impossible. It will take me months just to get ready. Hopefully I can make the switch this year.

[John Shuk]

I shouldn't even ask, but what is this motorcycle that you speak of..........

Larry
Didn't you just make a vehicle trip Larry?