I Need Toothing Plane Design Help

[Leigh Betsch]

I don't want to tip my hand in the Great Woodie Build Off but, I could use a little help to design a toothing plane.
Would a small plane be best, like a coffin smoother?
What woudlbe a good width, 2"?, or smaller?
Is it important to have a tight mouth?
Is a high angle 55 degree plane better than a 45 degree?
Does anyone sell a toothing iron for wooden planes?
If I make an iron myself what should the depth and spacing of the grooves be?
Ive never made a toothig iron, I'm alittle worried if I make an O1 and tourch treat it that it will warp like a snake. Any experience with this?
Any other advice will be appreciated.
I would like to use this plane to prep shop cut veneers and to knock down high figure wood before touching it up with my smoothing plane.
Of course I'm not actually saying I'm going to build a toothing plane for my Woodie build off project. This is all hypothetical.;)

[Zach Dillinger]

A toothing plane should usually be more like 75 to 90 degree bed angle. Every toothing plane I own has a 2" iron. They are also all coffin smoother style planes, but I've seen Continental versions as well, horned planes, etc. Tight mouth isn't integral, since its more of a scraping cut than a cutting cut.

I've never seen new toothing irons for sale, outside of the blades that LN offers for its LA jack. Vintage toothing irons aren't easy to find by themselves. If you like, I'll take a photo of the 3 toothing planes and the 1 spare iron I have and email them to you.

[Sean Richards]

There is some useful stuff about toothing planes here

http://anthonyhaycabinetmaker.wordpress.com/2011/01/29/the-toothing-plane-a-tool-of-our-time/

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

ECE makes one - the only place I've seen it for sale, however, is Dieter Schmid:

http://www.fine-tools.com/G301211.htm

[Dale Coons]

There appear to be several sources still:

1) Woodcraft has a toothing iron replacement for a LN scraper plane, probably not quite what you were looking for:
Pinnacle Replacement Plane Blades for Lie-Nielsen #112 Large Scraper Toothed 18tpi Plane Blade
Item #150632

2) Dean Torges who is a well known boyer used to sell irons (making bows is how I came across them), and up until a few years ago they were available at threerivers archery. I just checked--they are no longer available there, but Dean Torges has this on his website:

"I've been told by its American importer, David Warren, that HBB rescued E.C.E.’s production of this plane and iron. Otherwise, we had seen its end. It's discomforting to see a tool this important to the history of woodwork teetering on the verge of extinction, disappearing like Solingen knives, whose factories, once numbering over four hundred, are a precious few.
You can purchase either the iron or both the plane and iron from David at this contact address: David Warren planemandw@sbcglobal.net. "

Perhaps you can contact David and see if he still has them available. Also, he (Dean Torges) demonstrates how to make a simple body for one in one of his videos/books (can't remember which). I made a body for a friend who had a toothing iron.

3) Ray Isles apparently makes some for block planes--see them at TFWW. Not the same as the old timers, but may work for you.

4) Dieter Schmid - Fine Tools (out of Germany) sells one. Halfway down the page http://www.fine-tools.com/hobele.htm you'll see it. I put one in the shopping basket, it looks like 15 euros (around 20 bucks) plus shipping.

5) ULMIA still has a complete plane in their lineup, but you'll have to sell off a couple of grandchildren.

Probably a few others around. Try googling "toothing plane iron"

Dale

[David Weaver]

Leigh, I think you want to make one toothing plane for scratching veneer, like zach suggests, and then decide with the second plane whether you want to make an iron to fit another standard smoother that you have (to work a figured surface) or if you want to make an entire second plane.

Maybe george will say what he likes for a veneer plane, I know he had to use one a lot at least early on at CW to prepare veneer for glue.

I have a toothing iron for my LA jack. I have not used a planer to dimension wood in about ....2 years maybe? I've still never used my toothing iron to do anything.

I would think the size of the grooves depends on how deep and rough you want to work. 10 or 12 in an inch would probably be a good place to start, as they wouldn't go too deeply into the iron (assuming you'll cut these with the corner on a milling cutter?) which may cause less trouble with heat treat movement.

[Sam Takeuchi]

Traditionally these come with pretty fine teeth, unlike modern so called "toothing" blades many people are familiar with. That is not the same thing. I don't think those coarse modern "toothing blade" are even suitable for veneering as teeth are too big and leaves too wide of a track for each tooth. Not saying you can't use it for veneering, of course. But I don't think modern coarse toothing blade and old fine toothing blade were made for the same purpose nor used the same way. You don't use fine toothed blade for hogging a lot of materials for example.

Construction isn't any different from traditional coffin smoother, just bedding angle is steeper. My toothing plane is 7.125" long, 2.7" at its widest point, bedded at 74 degrees, 28 teeth per inch and has 2" blade, mouth opening is 0.040" (sorry, I don't care for fractions). For toothing planes, mouth opening doesn't really matter. The whole point of toothing blade is to plane through grains in small chunks so that grain doesn't have a chance to lift the rest of grain along to cause tear out. Even though mine is one of shallower cutting angle ones, majority of them are vertically bedded (and nearly vertical ones), even without toothing blade, they wouldn't cause tear out in most situations as it's scraping. So don't need to worry too much about mouth opening.

You can buy just buy a junker coffin toothing plane on eBay just for a blade if you want a nice tapered one for cheap. Mine was a decent condition one from a seller on eBay UK, I don't think it went more than $25 altogether including shipping. Another source of vintage blade and possible source of toothing blade is G&M Tools (http://gandmtools.co.uk/catalogue.php) . Email them and see if they have a toothing blade for sale. They have quite extensive stock of vintage and NOS blades for sale. I bought a few from them in the past and they are pretty good to deal with.

P.S. You don't see the teeth on that blade along the edge, because that blade is dull as a blade can be. You can't cut tofu with that blade right now.

[Sean Richards]

FWIW when I was doing veneer work I used a toothed scraper - actually part of the blade from an old gents saw. As Sam so rightly points out above you do want a fine toothed blade for veneer work.

[russell lusthaus]

Lee Valley sells toothing plane irons in 2 or 3 different sizes.

Russ

[Andrae Covington]

I recently purchased the Pinnacle version of one of the LV toothed blades, but I haven't used it yet.

I've borrowed Sam's pic for a side-by-side comparison of the groove sizes:

224044

[Leigh Betsch]

Thanks for the info and links guys. Lots of good stuff out there on toothing planes. The Anthony Hays blog has a lot of good stuff, and good links in the comments. Two planes for what I want to do are probably in order. I have a nice little block woodie scraper plane with a steep bed angle that I can fit up pretty nice with a toothing blade an give it a try. Probably will take a few attempts to get everything figured out right though.
The Lee Valley irons I see are for a scaper plane or a small instrument plane, not what I want. The Lie-Nielson is $65 for a #4 version which is what I want but kinda spendy. The ECE also looks good but with shipping probably will get spendy. I think I'll make one in the morning if I have steel. I'll know by tomorrow night if it's a flop.

[Leigh Betsch]

I recently purchased the Pinnacle version of one of the LV toothed blades,

I must have missed that one of the LV site. I gotta go looking again.


Found it! That could be just what I need for the rougher. I'll need a finner pitch for the veneer work though.

[Leigh Betsch]

Ok I made a toothing iron this morning. I cut the teeth on my metal shaper, 25 per inch. They came out great. The iron is O1, 1/4" x 2" x 5". I've never torch treated anything this large. I don't want to send it off so I plan to try it with my O/A torch. I'm thinking that I'll just harden about 1" of the toothed end and not try to get the entire blade red hot, hoping to minimize the warp. Anyone have experience hardening a 1/4" O1 iron with a torch? I gotta feeling that this ain't gonna work out very well, but I don't have a lot invested either.

[Chris Griggs]

The stuff you do is so cool Leigh! Perhaps you answered this before but.... How do know how to do all this stuff and how are you so well equipped? Are you a metal worker or machinist by trade or something?

[george wilson]

I guess the Anthony Hay article was written by Ed. Wright,the last apprentice(now journeyman) I ever hired there. He's the only "Ed" I know of there.

Leigh: You just might get into trouble hardening that toothed iron. The toothed side has EL MUCHO more surface area than the plain side. Something is liable to warp. The toothed side will cool faster. This is one reason I would use A2 steel for one of those. Air hardening steel is the least treacherous to heat treat. Good luck! Getting a hollow cup across a surface flat is about the worst thing to deal with. I'm sure manufacturers would have had some kind of fixture to hold the iron flat while quenching.

Ever see the video of quenching the large,ring shaped gear in old fashioned differentials? With gear teeth cut on 1 side only,they quickly clamped the gear flat in a steel fixture,then instantly lowered it into a quench.

Here'a what I'd do: I'd clamp the toothed side against a 1/4" steel plate 2" wide,heat the whole thing up,and quench everything together. This may take much more heat than you have available,though.

When the hardened steel is polished off,and heated to a dark straw (brown) color,it can be bent like a noodle,but when it cools,it will snap off if you try bending it. Your trouble is to not damage those nice teeth you made with your shaper(who says shapers are never used?:)) If you had a DEEP faced vise,like a Parrot vise,with smooth steel jaws,you could heat the iron to brown,then clamp it tightly between those jaws. It would be better if you heated the vise up first,though,and let the iron and vise cool together.

Or,maybe you will get lucky,and nothing will warp. There's a LAST idea: Heat the iron up,and just cool it very close to a high velocity fan. Right up against the wire cage. Hold it on edge to the fan. A thinnish 01 blade might cool fast enough to harden sufficiently that you can barely file it with a NEW fine cut GOOD file. If that happens,you are there. Do nothing else. In fact,I DO suggest that you try this method first. You have nothing to lose except the warp.

P.S.: The pictures Ed put up of the toothing planes are fine examples.

[Leigh Betsch]

Thanks for the info George. I know that the professional heat treateres will fixture you stuff to keep the warp down but I don't think I could heat the fixture and the iron with just my small torch. So I just took it slow and watched the color uniformity real close. Well I guess I got lucky the blade didn't warp much at all. I indicated it before I heat treated it, about .0005 TIR. After heat treating just the toothed end it indicated .001 TIR. Guess I just live right! The only issues was that the 30 degree bevel was already cut on this blank before I started and it dipped off about .001 after heat treating. I think you warned everyone about this in a previous post, and yup it does happen! But about and hour on the diamond, and ceramic stones and it's now flat and shines like a mirror.

I also got lucky and didn't burn the shop down, it was looking like a real possibility for a while. I learned (actually I know better but didn't think), you gotta have more oil when you quench a bigger part. I use a soup can with oil (everyone knows that front fork oil from a Triumph motorcycle works best;)). Well when you stick a 5" hot iron in 4" of oil your gonna get flames on the top of your soup can about 6" high, engulfing your vise grip and hand. So then what do you do? Drop the blade and vise grip and tip the oil over, get a real fire going? Pull the blade out and get even more hot iron at the top of the oil surface to keep the flame going? You have the torch in your left hand firing away. Gotta keep the iron vertical else your gonna get warp. You gotta sick it out and let the flame burn out. Takes about 3-4 seconds I suppose, while your trying to salvage your iron testing arm hair from shrinking up like a eunnuch in a cold shower.
I actually do my torch work on a stainless steel bench in my metal shop and I keep this bench pretty clean of cutting oil and flammables. I actually prepared in case I spill the oil and have a fire. When ever I fire my torch I get prepared, no flammables close, I know where spilled flaming oil is going to run, bag of floor dry 4 feet away, and a fire extinguisher 3 feet away (by the door out). And I did put the gallon of acetone in the cabinet just before firing the torch!
Well, alls well that ends well I guess. Now I gotta get bigger oil can and some more of that Triumph fork oil!

Chris, Thanks. I watch other people do cool things and try to be like them. Actually I do stuff. Most people watch football and go golfing. I do stuff instead. Sometimes I even make things while I'm doing stuff. And when I'm making things I often get sidetracked into learning new stuff needed to make the things that I make while I'm doing stuff. And when I'm done making the things that I make while I'm doing stuff I just go back and do more stuff.
Actually I spent 5 years as a tool and die maker, did tool design work for a few more years, learned CAD/CAM, and ran a shop for few years. Now I'm a manager for a large international company. But once you learn the tool and die / machining trade the stuff gets in your blood and you just can't get it out. Like George once said of himself, I am also "Tool Pig" I have a fully equipped wood shop, Euro slider saw, 16" jointer, 20" bandsaw..... and I have a metal shop with a bunch of old time rebuilt machines (newest one is a '74 horizontal mill (and one newer bench top cnc mill). I like wood working but I just can't stay out of the metal shop for long, it just has the power over me I guess.

I don't say that I am good at making things but it's the stuff I'm made of, so I don't fight it I just buy more tools!

[george wilson]

Thanks for your background info. Sounds like you are well experienced. Congratulations on making the iron. Did it get hard enough in the small can? We kept 5 gallon quenches of auto. transmission fluid and a 5 gallon brine quench at the shop. I must get my quenches here at home going. Right now I have a 1 gallon quench.

For those who want to know: a brine quench is made by dissolving ice cream salt in water until a potato will float in it. This is a 7% solution,but the potato thing is easier to do. We used distilled water for the water,because you never know what is in tap water in the way of minerals. I don't know why ice cream salt is better,unless it just isn't iodized.

We kept a heavy duty stainless steel bucket with heavy stainless wire mesh bottom at the bottom of the oil quench. We could drop parts in and retrieve them easily. Yes,that quench caught fire too. But,we had it in our welding room. Only cinder blocks and metal in there,and the quenches were under a big hood with 2 powerful exhaust fans to get the smoke.

[Leigh Betsch]

Anyone know what the bevel angle should be on a plane bedded at 70 degrees? When I tried this iron out in my scraping plane, the edge didn't last long. I'm figuring that at 30 degrees the bevel angle is too acute for a steeply bedded plane. My scraper is about 5 degrees over center IIRC and my toothing plane will be bedded at 70 degrees so I figure that should help. Unless someone has some good advice I think I'll put a micro bevel at 55 degrees and try it in my soon to be 70 degree toothing plane. Or it could be that my tourch heat treating process failed me and my iron is just to soft, although the file test gives me some confidence that the edge is hard.