Kitchen Cabinet Question

[Hal Peeler]

What do you cabinet guys use to build your boxes for kitchen cabinets? I've started new ones for our house and have the face frames done (oak) but wondered if you used 1/2" or 3/4" oak plywood for the boxes. A local shop around here glues 1/4" oak onto 1/2" luan. I don't want to use 3/4" oak on the sides that are not exposed but I don't want the inside of the cabinets to look weird either by using different material on each side. I guess by now you've figured out that I haven't done a kitchen before. Now that I look like I have no idea what I'm talking about, thanks for the help.
Hal

[Don Jarvie]

Stained or painted? If painted use birch ply for all since the grain won't be prominate. If stained use 3/4 oak for the outsides and 3/4 birch for the insides. Use a good quality birch so you will keep the chip outs from the cuts to a minimum.

[John Gregory]

I would not use anything less than 3/4" sheet goods for the box, For the back 1/2" would be fine, but 3/4" can make hanging the uppers easier. Cabinet grade ply, Melamine, or pre finished plywood would be my choice. If you want the inside to have wood grain, use prefinished ply. If a white interior is ok then use melamine. The Melamine can be heavy to handle. Remember that kitchen cabinets carry a lot of weight with dishes, pans, etc. You want to make them strong and lasting.

[Richard McComas]

Over the last 30 years I've built 14 kitchens, five of them using melamine. I've tried all kinds of sheet good of different finishes and thickness. My favorite cabinet box material is 3/4 melamine. I use it for the backs also. I don't use borg melamine. I get my melamine from a business that caters to cabinet makers. It a much higher quality than what you get at the borg. It's flat, stable, and equal thickness. My first melamine kitchen was 19 years ago, it's still in service and no failures. It's so much easier to build square boxes with the melamine than it is with todays bowed plywood. My last kicthen I use pre_finished maple plywood at 82 dollars a sheet. It was a pain because the stuff would bow on me.

[Tim Thomas]

I second the recommendation on pre-finished plywood. I'm building a kitchen island with it right now and it is great to work with. I bought 3/4 inch that was finished on just one side. I don't think it is a problem that the wood on the plywood (probably birch) doesn't match what the face frames are. The pre-finished is a nice light, neutral color that would go well with anything. (My face frames and doors are painted poplar) If you have an exposed end on a run of cabinets you can make an oak panel to cover just that end.

[frank shic]

i prefer melamine as well although the 3/4" stuff is REALLY HEAVY if you're working alone. ditto on not using borg melamine - it seems to be a much more inferior grade than the cabinet quality stuff. rich, how are you cutting your melamine sheets so they don't chip out? i'm using a scoring blade attachment on my table saw. if you do use prefinished plywood, set the sides back from the outer edges so you don't run into a problem like richard mentioned when you screw them together at installation time.

[Paul Johnstone]

I guess it primarily depends on what look you are after, what the budget is, and how much time you are willing to spend.
I would recommend using 3/4" oak plywood throughout (since you like oak). I am assuming you are going to stain or clear coat it.

My personal opinion (if finances allow).. don't skimp. You are doing this for your own kitchen, and investing a lot of time.
If you want something generic or cheap looking, you'd be much better off just buying cabinets at a home center or keeping what you have.

The difference in price between 1/2" oak and 3/4" oak is very little.
I don't think it would be worth all the labor to glue 1/4" ply to 1/2" luan.
Even if you had a vaccum press, why spend all that time?

[Sam Murdoch]

In my opinion (and that of very many satisfied customers) the best interior plywood for the average kitchen or bath cabinet is prefinished plywood. I prefer maple. There are different grades of this stuff so if you have a chance you should ask for a sample before you commit. The finish of prefin ply is as good as you can get without you needing to apply it. This saves lots and lots of work and aggravation especially if you don't own a spray booth. And it is very easy to keep the inside looking great for the life of the cabinet. I always use 3/4" for the sides - prefin both sides - and 1/2" for the back - also prefin both sides, and 3/4" for tops, bottoms and shelves. The 2 sided product is more stable and lends itself well to interior partitions and shelves that show 2 faces. The extra cost is far outweighed by the consistency as you build and the ease of achieving a super durable and great looking interior.

If you have glass doors where the inside of the cabinet will show you might then choose to use an unfinished product in that particular cabinet that can be painted or stained to match your exterior.

As you are building face frame cabinets this is a perfect situation to use all prefin maple interiors and then use oak plywood as the exterior for all the places where finished ends will show. Yes, add an oak ply side to the interior side - double up. This eliminates all the potential to mismatch interior panels and shelves etc., while giving your exteriors exactly the look you prefer. Using an 1-1/2" wide face frame allows you to use both 3/4" thick ply layers or use 3/4" on the inside and 1/2" on the exterior with a spacer (or not) depending on if you want to flush the inside of the face frame to the sides.

This could be a very long "how to" post but if you get this far and are interested in more info I'll type more later.

[David Larsen]

I like oak plywood for my cabinet boxes.

This is a test I will pass along: Build a cabinet box out of plywood and build one out of melamine. Now, carry each of them onto the roof of your garage and drop them in the driveway. The results laying in the driveway is why!

3/4 plywood for the bottoms and sides. 1/4 for the back of base and uppers. 1/2 or 3/4 for the back of island cabinets or lazy susan cabinets.

[Mike Cutler]

I'm in the middle of a kitchen remodel myself.
3/4" prefinished maple, both sides is what I'm using. There will be inset doors and drawers of Qsawn and curly cherry. Rails and stiles will be Qsawn Cherry.
I have some additional strength considerations to take into effect. A 300 lb. wall oven will be 36" off the floor, and a 200 lb. Sub Zero 1/2 freezer will also be 36" off the ground. The base cabinets under these two appliances have to be pretty stout.
The counter tops will also be granite, so those bases had to be built stout. There's going to be some weight.
For the uppers, which will be full height, It will be 3/4" sides and a 1/2" back french cleated to the wall. I don't like the visual appearance of a stretcher at the top of the cabinet with screws shot through it into the studs. My uppers will also be deeper than the standard 12", probably 14" deep to the inside of the inset doors. I want more support. for the additional weight.

[Richard McComas]

I like oak plywood for my cabinet boxes.

This is a test I will pass along: Build a cabinet box out of plywood and build one out of melamine. Now, carry each of them onto the roof of your garage and drop them in the driveway. The results laying in the driveway is why!

3/4 plywood for the bottoms and sides. 1/4 for the back of base and uppers. 1/2 or 3/4 for the back of island cabinets or lazy susan cabinets.I would agree in your test the plywood box would suffer less damage than the melamine box . But you test is flawed. Dropping cabinet from the roof is NOT the normal everyday function for a kitchen cabinet. A Melamie cabinet box screwed to the wall and to each other as it would be in a real kitchen will work as well as your plywood box. In addition if you are finishing the plywood box as opposed to the factory finish on pre-finished there no way you going to get as tough as finish as good quality melamine without a special finishing setup and a fair amount of experience.


My day job is a carpentry maintenance worker for the local school district. We have over 100 schools and support building. In those building we have tens of thousands of commercially made melamine cabinets, mostly frame less. Work orders to repair melamine boxes are far a few between.

Throwing cabinets off a roof is not going to convince me that plywood is vastly superior to melamine when used for kitchen cabinets.

[Richard McComas]

i prefer melamine as well although the 3/4" stuff is REALLY HEAVY if you're working alone. ditto on not using borg melamine - it seems to be a much more inferior grade than the cabinet quality stuff. rich, how are you cutting your melamine sheets so they don't chip out? i'm using a scoring blade attachment on my table saw. if you do use prefinished plywood, set the sides back from the outer edges so you don't run into a problem like richard mentioned when you screw them together at installation time.Frank, I also have a scoring unit.

[Jeff Monson]

I use 3/4" for the sides, bottoms, tops. 1/2" for the backs. I have used melamine and plywood, I dont have a real preference either way. I have noticed a shift towards prefinished maple ply. in most of the BORG cabinet displays in the last year though.

[Mike Goetzke]

As a hobbyist I recently built new kitchen cabinet boxes out of 3/4" oak ply throughout. I used rabbited joints and they are very stout. As mentioned earlier the 3/4" backs are a dream to install the uppers. Put a level cleat on the wall and rout a dado in the back of the cabinet (before assembled) and it holds the cabinet in place till the fasteners are driven. All this being said my old cabinets had 1/8" backs and 1/2" sides and held up for 20 some years - even though some collapsed as I uninstalled them.

Mike

[David Larsen]

I would agree in your test the plywood box would suffer less damage than the melamine box . But you test is flawed. Dropping cabinet from the roof is NOT the normal everyday function for a kitchen cabinet. A Melamie cabinet box screwed to the wall and to each other as it would be in a real kitchen will work as well as your plywood box. In addition if you are finishing the plywood box as opposed to the factory finish on pre-finished there no way you going to get as tough as finish as good quality melamine without a special finishing setup and a fair amount of experience.


My day job is a carpentry maintenance worker for the local school district. We have over 100 schools and support building. In those building we have tens of thousands of commercially made melamine cabinets, mostly frame less. Work orders to repair melamine boxes are far a few between.

Throwing cabinets off a roof is not going to convince me that plywood is vastly superior to melamine when used for kitchen cabinets.

Just sayin that throwin a cabinet off a roof and keepin it intact is a hellofa good test. If the cabinet holds up, then it earns a place in the kitchens I build. If it cannot hold up, then maybe it belongs in someone elses kitchen. Just like building code is a basic standard, but you can still build better!

[keith micinski]

Just sayin that throwin a cabinet off a roof and keepin it intact is a hellofa good test. If the cabinet holds up, then it earns a place in the kitchens I build. If it cannot hold up, then maybe it belongs in someone elses kitchen. Just like building code is a basic standard, but you can still build better!

In this test imagine if you built an emergency parachute for the cabinets... I am pretty sure we won't be seeing that design any time soon. Designing a test that has no bearing on what the cabinet is actually going to be used for makes no sense. This is a classic marketing trick. By the way I have only used Plywood and probably wouldn't use Melamine but not because if I threw it in a volcano it would burn up quicker.

[David Larsen]

In this test imagine if you built an emergency parachute for the cabinets... I am pretty sure we won't be seeing that design any time soon. Designing a test that has no bearing on what the cabinet is actually going to be used for makes no sense. This is a classic marketing trick. By the way I have only used Plywood and probably wouldn't use Melamine but not because if I threw it in a volcano it would burn up quicker.

I do not actually throw cabinets off the roof of the garage. The example was purposely meant to hyperbolize the effect!

Most houses built will never see a hurricane or tornado, but that doesn't mean you wouldn't want to build it to withstand such a force.

I just removed a couple of bathroom vanities that were around 40 years old. I didn't build them. They held up adequately over that period. Once removed, I noticed just how flimsy they were built. Yes, they worked, but there isn't any reason why they couldn't have been built better. Rather than looking for a 40 year lifespan, why not shoot for the 150 year span.

Cabinets don't have to be a disposable commodity.

[scott vroom]

Most houses built will never see a hurricane or tornado, but that doesn't mean you wouldn't want to build it to withstand such a force.

That is true but it's also faulty logic. A home is Florida is built to withstand a hurricane because some homes in Florida are exposed to hurricanes. I've never seen installed kitchen cabinets falling to the ground from 10-15 feet elevation. ;)

[frank shic]

the truth of the matter is that we tend to overbuild and it's not always necessary. how many cases have you heard of a kraftmaid kitchen cabinet failing? have you ever seen one returned at home depot? they juse use 1/2" plywood for the sides! i'll stick with 3/4" prefinished plywood or 5/8" melamine when i'm building face frame and the the doors don't have windows with a 1/4" back and either a nailer on the back for lower cabinets and cabinet hangers for upper cabinets. i'll use 3/4" melamine for frameless which is enormously easy if you have the right set up...

[David Larsen]

That is true but it's also faulty logic. A home is Florida is built to withstand a hurricane because some homes in Florida are exposed to hurricanes. I've never seen installed kitchen cabinets falling to the ground from 10-15 feet elevation. ;)

You are missing the analogy of the experiment example. The point I was trying to make is that if the plywood cabinet fares better than the melamine cabinet after being dropped off a garage roof, then it should be able to pretty much withstand anything thrown its way in a kitchen environment. Yes, nothing in the kitchen environment will subject it to such forces, but the experiment was hyperbolizing the example. If I were to have stated the experiment as anything less it wouldn't have created the same value.

I for one consider melamine as an inferior product for cabinet boxes because it cannot hold fasteners and lacks flexibility. The smooth surfaces and stability does have benefits, but I don't think they outweigh the shortfalls.

Put 3/4 melamine and 3/4 plywood to various tests. Give the pros and cons and I would say the plywood will come out on top. IMHO

[frank shic]

i don't think we're missing your analogy, david. i prefer fruity desserts over cakes and cookies btw ;)

[Sam Murdoch]

It is MUCH MUCH easier for a casual cabinet maker (or a pro for that matter) to build a good solid and nice looking cabinet using 3/4" plywood for the box and 1/2" ply for the back, then with 1/2" thick material for the boxes, whether of plywood or any other sheet materials - IMNSHO :)

[Richard McComas]

It is MUCH MUCH easier for a casual cabinet maker (or a pro for that matter) to build a good solid and nice looking cabinet using 3/4" plywood for the box and 1/2" ply for the back, then with 1/2" thick material for the boxes, whether of plywood or any other sheet materials - IMNSHO :)Having use both plywood and melamine for building cabinets I would appreciate a more detailed explication of " MUCH MUCH easier". What/why is plywood "MUCH MUCH easier"? Other than the weight of moving full sheet of melamine I haven't found a significant difference between the two materials.

P.S. How many melamine naysayers in this thread have real hands on experience over a reasonable period of time in using a melamine product. How many boxes have you built and what were your failures with this material.

[frank shic]

i've found that professional grade melamine doesn't bow as much which makes a huge difference if you're building frameless or if you have the carcase aligned with the outer edge of the face frame. the other advantage is that melamine typically comes in sheets that are oversized by 1" in both directions which makes it possible to get TWO 24" panels out of one sheet. that 3/4" melamine sure is a good workout though lol

[Rob Sack]

I have been building kitchens for almot 30 years. Have I used melamine? Sure, but only if the customer insists. It's heavy, it outgases, and frankly it's not as durable or cleanable as it is claimed to be. It will stain and it will be easily damaged if heavy and/or sharp objects come into contact with it. Unfortunately, in commercial installations, it is sometimes required by the Health Department. I did all the cabinetry in one of those juice/smoothy type of stores. One of the sinks had a persistent leak, and as a result, within 6 months the floor of the sink cabinet swelled from 3/4" to 1 1/8" in thickness, a 50% increase. This is not easily repaired. I always recommend prefinished, veneer core, domestically produced plywood for all cabinet interiors. Damages from heavy and/or sharp objects can be more easily repaired. Although it is not impervious to long term water damage, the damage would probably be less severe than the damage to melemine.

[Sam Murdoch]

Richard, my "much much easier" comment was primarily an indictment of using 1/2" sheet goods over 3/4" material, especially for an occasional cabinet maker. Holding screws, holding glue, holding shape, holding other mechanical fastenings or joint aids such as biscuits, dowels or dominos, are all advantages of the thicker material. In lots of years I have built maybe 3 kitchens with melamine so as you suggest, I can't really write with authority about the pros and cons VS plywood construction. Nonetheless, don't you agree that the weight, the need to pre score, and the fact that you can't just drive in screws are issues that could certainly frustrate a one time or very occasional cabinet builder? The introduction of the Festool track saw has eliminated the first 2 concerns, but not everyone has one of those.

I offer my opinion for the consideration of those who come to this forum looking for ideas, advice, or just to affirm the possibilities. My way is not the best or the onlyest, just one way that works very well for me. Hope that my posts are useful and not argumentative, though, as I admit, I am one opinionated little woodworker. :D

[Jim Andrew]

When I was involved in a cabinet shop, we used 1/2" sides and bottoms, and ran the front edges through a router table setup that produced a tongue of 1/4 x 1/4, and the face frames had a groove on the inside, which that tongue fit into. Then we put the face frame flat on a clamping table and put the box together, pin nailed it together and stapled through the tongue into the face frame. Using glue of course. In my home shop I wouldn't consider trying to nail into the edge of 1/2" plywood, and the tongue fit into the face frame was a real pain also, so I use 3/4" ply in the cabinets I build now in my home shop.

[John A langley]

Hal - To answer your question, I use shop birch by Columbia Products for my stain grade face frame cabinets. I use melamine for my Euro cabinets. I use MDF for my paint grade cabinets. My sides, bottoms and tops are 3/4" thick. backs 1/4", I use a hanging rail. Good luck with your project.

[Rob Sack]

Having use both plywood and melamine for building cabinets I would appreciate a more detailed explication of " MUCH MUCH easier". What/why is plywood "MUCH MUCH easier"? Other than the weight of moving full sheet of melamine I haven't found a significant difference between the two materials.

P.S. How many melamine naysayers in this thread have real hands on experience over a reasonable period of time in using a melamine product. How many boxes have you built and what were your failures with this material.


This is one "melamine naysayer," as you put it, who has been using melamine for over 20 years and that crap Kortron before that when I had to. It's not MY failures that have been the problem, it's been the MATERIAL'S failures. Let's see. It doesn't glue well even using rabbets and dadoes. It doesn't hold screws or nails well. It splits very easily when screwed or nailed into an edge. It has much less structural integrity. It won't span nearly as well plywood. The surface will stain. It is susceptible to extreme damage when exposed to moisture, such as in sink cabinets and bath cabinets. I could go on, but I think I make my point. Oh, I almost forgot. If you pardon my sarcasm, there's nothing like a particleboard core that says QUALITY.

[Richard McComas]

This is one "melamine naysayer," as you put it, who has been using melamine for over 20 years and that crap Kortron before that when I had to. It's not MY failures that have been the problem, it's been the MATERIAL'S failures. Let's see. It doesn't glue well even using rabbets and dadoes. It doesn't hold screws or nails well. It splits very easily when screwed or nailed into an edge. It has much less structural integrity. It won't span nearly as well plywood. The surface will stain. It is susceptible to extreme damage when exposed to moisture, such as in sink cabinets and bath cabinets. I could go on, but I think I make my point. Oh, I almost forgot. If you pardon my sarcasm, there's nothing like a particleboard core that says QUALITY.Yes, you made your point. The point I see is you don't know how to construct a cabinet box made with melamine.

You don't nail melamine.

You don't dado melamine.

You don't glue melamine.

You don't use just any ole screw in melamine.


The AWI if you know what that is has certified (when constructed properly) melamine cabinets as a premium grad cabinet. This construction can easily be done in a small shop with out a lot of expensive machinery. All you need is a good saw blade, The right screws and drill bit.

Not being a very articulate person I have take the liberty to copy and past the follow paragraph from the WoodWeb's professional cabinet forum.This should give you a clue on what screws to use.

"Confirmats are vastly superior to assembly screws - this is why they are accepted as AWI premium grade joinery, and assembly screws are not. Confirmats are designed to be used without glue. The larger diameter of a Confirmat screw improves joint strength because it allows the threads to bite into the denser outer edges of particleboard. It is also more rigid than an assembly screw. Confirmats make sense whether you manually bore the pilot holes with a step drill bit, or you pre-bore with an assembly boring machine. Either way works. An assembly boring machine is not a prerequisite for Confirmat assembly."

My typical melamine is constructed as in the picture take notice of how I like to install the 3/4'' back panel. It is screwed from both the back and the sides. AWI also has specs on the screw spacing and distance from the edge to qualify as a premium grade cabinet.


The cabinet top and deck are cut narrower than the cabinets sides.


http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o159/rmccomas0043/cabtop.jpg

[John A langley]

Gentlemen - The OP's original question was what do you use. Everybody has materials they like and materials they don't like. It is fine to point out the disadvantages to each material, but we have to keep in mind these materials were all developed for a purpose and they all work very well in those systems. Melamine is an excellent material for Euro-style cabinets. Shop birch plywood is an excellent material for stain grade cabinets and it is my opinion that MDF makes a great paint grade cabinet. Even particle board has its place. It is a great sub straight for laminate tops. This is my opinion and knowledge of the materials based on 50+ years of cabinet making experience. I will freely share my experiences and knowledge with anybody that wants it and if you read Sam;s post #26, in his last paragraph, that's pretty much how I feel too.

[frank shic]

this debate reminds me of the arguments that'd keep us up til 2 am in the morning back when i was a college student: mac vs pc! in the end, does it really matter as long as you're making sawdust?

[John A langley]

Frank - Spot on about making sawdust. And in case you're still taking votes, PC.

[Richard McComas]

this debate reminds me of the arguments that'd keep us up til 2 am in the morning back when i was a college student: mac vs pc! in the end, does it really matter as long as you're making sawdust?Your're right Frank and I'm bowing out of the debate. Sometimes there are good bits of information is a debate.

[frank shic]

Frank - Spot on about making sawdust. And in case you're still taking votes, PC.

lol john... now let's go build something gentleman... or just go buy another tool! ;)

[John A langley]

Frank - There's a few people that would like my wife to kill me but I didn't think you were one of them yet. Buy another tool? That would get me killed.

[frank shic]

...only if she finds out!

[John A langley]

Frank - When I used to go to gun shows and I wanted to buy a new gun I'd carry an empty case out in the morning She'd think I was taking a gun with me to sell and I'd bring a new gun home that night. An empty drill case might work jiust as well. :-)

[Brian Ross]

I build kitchens full time but being retired I do 4 to 6 kitchens a year. I use 3/4 maple for my boxes and the same for the back. I realize 3/4 is overkill for a back but the price difference is very little and it saves me stocking 1/2 in. material. I only use domestic material with a veneer core. I build a Euro style cabinet and do my own spraying of the boxes. I have an Kremlin air assist system and it takes no time to spray the boxes.I attach my backs with screws to the back edge of the boxes. It works quite well on the uppers as the inside of my uppers are a full 12 inches deep. At the end of an exposed run I apply a panel to match the doors. When attaching the backs I put a type 17 assembly screw every 6 inches. I use 2 in screws. I realize 12 inches is a standard depth of upper but the extra 3/4 in has not caused me any problems. My bases also have the back attached in the same manner but I maintain the 24 inch depth which is standard. This avoids any problem with counter tops as they are manufactured for a 24 in base. I have found that clients prefer the maple for the cabinets over the melamine as most say " it looks nicer". I do charge a premium for the maple and I must admit it is a lot easier to handle as I am a one man shop.

Brian

[David Larsen]

in the end, does it really matter as long as you're making sawdust?

GLUE DUST if you are cutting melamine! LOL... I couldn't resist!

[frank shic]

LOL... but plywood has glue in it too, doesn't it? :)

[David Larsen]

LOL... but plywood has glue in it too, doesn't it? :)

I think we can classify the stuff holding plywood together as glue. The stuff holding melamine together is probably in a class all by itself.