ClearVue Owners. Got some questions.

[Brian Loran]

Anyone ever mount one free standing (not against a wall)? I have limited wall space so if I can't squeeze it in I will have to come up with a stable stand for it. I am A little concerned about this. I don't want it tipping over or vibrating around.

Also, is the Leeson motor that they sell made in the US? I asked them and I think they said yes. I want to confirm though because I am not sure if they meant it is a US company that makes the motor or if the motor is actually made in the US. I know Leeson sells motors from Asia as well as US made ones.....

Finally, any info to help push me over the edge to purchasing one? I keep going back and forth between the 3hp Dust Gorilla and the Clearvue CV1800. Tough choice!

Thanks.

[David Kumm]

Fair question and I would pin them down. Ask for the plate efficiency numbers and FLA and compare. The Baldor is a better motor and more expensive but it is a close call. I'm not sure you are comparing equivalent systems though. the 5 hp Oneida is going to produce roughly the same cfm as the clearvue. The clearvue comes with more filter area. the main difference between the Gorilla and Pro systems is the amount of filter area. the more the better assuming the filtration is equal. If you use 6" mains the 3or 5 may deliver the same as the pipe resistence limits the motor. If you use 7" you for sure will benefit from the 5. Dave

[Paul Wunder]

clearvuecyclones.com/Bullentin/attachment.php?attachmentid=395&d=1315169337

The above link to shows a free standing CV1800 cyclone stand that someone built.

Have you considered mounting the mounting board directly to the joists in your ceiling above your shop (using isolator brackets). Cheap, no additional construction and because the cyclone weighs less that 100 lbs there will be no strain on the joists. I did mine that way and it worked out fine. I have no vibration. You can't do that with an Oneida because of the weight.

P.S> I love my Clearvue.

My Leeson was made in the USA

Paul

[Brian Loran]

Cool. Thanks for the info guys! Clearvue is still in the lead.

[Nick Lazz]

+1 for Paul's post. You definitely can get creative with mounting. I for one mounted mine at ceiling height which is just under 14'. I also ran my filters about 18' away using flex HVAC which was to help reduce noise but it is also useful if you can't bunch everything up together.
Im sure you can tell, but I'm with Paul, I really love my CV and my motor was also made in USA.

Good luck in your decision. They're both good choices. I just think the CV was better (for me).

Nick

[Rick Prosser]

I mounted my Clearvue freestanding. The top of the motor is about 10-11 feet above the floor.

http://www.gallery2.clearvuecyclones.com/v/CV1800+and+CVMax/reprosser/

It does not move around on the floor at all.

[Brian Loran]

More great ideas! Thanks. I am definitely getting the clearvue. Thanks everyone.

[David Kumm]

Brian, if you go with the clearvue have you considered talking to them about the Max cyclone vs the regular one. Looks like the price is higher but the only difference is the 8" inlet vs the 6" Given that the motor is the same and the 15" impeller will likely handle a larger main, I would try to negotiate for the larger cyclone to hedge my bets in case I later needed more CFM or as stated in another post, have the ability to run a piece of 8" with a drop that could be left open to serve as an air cleaner before converting to a smaller main. If three years from now you decide on a drum sander, larger planer etc, you don't have to swap out the cyclone to increase the capacity of the system. Even a fan swap isn't that expensive if the housing will fit. If you plan on metal pipe a 7" main will greatly add to the cfm of the 1800 series provided the inlet is 8". Dave

[Jim O'Dell]

I built a stand for mine. I used 4X4 Douglas Fir for a three sided U shaped base. Three 2X4's at the back going up 10', and two 2X4 braces to the front to keep it from collapsing. See this thread for some pictures: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?14427-Coolmeadow-Creations-Shop-Rehab/page2&highlight=coolmeadow+shop+rehab Start with post #49. Hope this helps. Oh, and you won't regret the Clear Vue. And I'm sure my Leeson motor is made in the USA. Doubt that they have changed that. You can go here to where the motors are purchased from and email them to clarify: http://www.electricmotorwarehouse.com/120554.htm Jim.

edit: Oh, and after supper I'll send you two PMs that detailed what I used in setting mine up. Don't go get it until you see what comes with the current units. When I bought mine, I had to order the motor separately, and those that were using filters had to order them separately also. So things might have changed a little. Jim.

[Salem Ganzhorn]

I recently picked up a used dust gorilla. If you had asked me before I bought it the clearvue was in the lead. But after getting a look at the inside of my dust gorilla I am happy with my decision.

The Oneida has a better impeller then the clearvue. Combined with the heavy guage steel I am pretty sure the dust gorilla is much quieter then the clearvue. It seems quiter then my old single stage grizzly. If noise doesn't matter to you the clearvue should provide more airflow. Note though with a good 6" pipe layout the dust gorilla should be sufficient.
Salem

[mreza Salav]

My clearvue is setup in a basement shop. I made a closet for it which is also the stand, basically it's a frame that is enclosed all around and sound-insulated (see the pictures below).
The exhaust is from the top to cool down the motor.

223894223895223896223897

[Chris Parks]

David, the Max has a 16" impeller.

[David Kumm]

David, the Max has a 16" impeller.

Chris, my point was that I would buy the cyclone designed for the max even if I bought the regular 1800. The 8" intake can be reduced down- or not- and still serve with the 15" impeller. If needs changed the larger impeller is easier to swap out than the entire system for a fairly small upcharge upfront. Dave

[ian maybury]

One advantage of the CV Max 16in impeller used on a system that doesn't need all the puff may be the option to reduce the rpm using a VFD to reduce noise - even a few 100 rpm is noticeable.

Here's another much less standard Pentz/CV layout that locates the the cyclone inlet at header height (you can see the header heading off between the joists in the shop outside), parks the noisy bits in the loft upstairs, and leaves lots of room for the chip drum underneath.

The soft mount (the pad is polyethylene packaging foam, the lag bolts are sleeved with gas hose with rubber washers under the heads) took a noticeable amount of noise out even though it had all seemed very smooth and to not be transmitting vibration into the floor. The installation seems to work well:

223992223993223997223996223994223995

ian

[Chris Parks]

One advantage of the CV Max 16in impeller used on a system that doesn't need all the puff may be the option to reduce the rpm using a VFD to reduce noise - a few 100 rpm is noticeable.

Most of the Max's in Oz run at 2850 and at least three of them are in commercial workshops, no one complains about the lack of performance. One other is run at 3450 and will utilises a VFD to run faster if the need is there. Bill P recommends no faster than 4000rpm but my gut feeling is the efficiency will fall away before it gets that high. If I get a chance over the weekend I will wind my 1800 up to 4k and see if it blows up or increases/loses efficiency.

[Phil Maddox]

You asked for something to "push you over the edge" - Construction. MDF and plastic vs. steel and aluminum. I don't even have that big of an issue with the plastic cone but an MDF blower housing? No thanks. I looked at all of them but bought the SDG 3hp and haven't looked back. Build like a tank.

I don't ever want to buy another DC again - this one will last me forever.

Good luck!

Phil

[Nick Lazz]

I think the 'plastic' cone is the best feature. You can see whats going on which many times, besides being entertaining, is actually helpful. The MDF isn't an issue, common fear though and many people just can't get past it. The ones that do, I think realize they were pole vaulting over a mouse turd. ;)

[Paul Wunder]

The "plastic" is P.E.T.G.; this is the material that police riot shields are made from.

The "MDF" does the job; allows you to easily adapt the CV to your installation's needs with out acquiring metal working. In "real life" I have never seen a bad word on the iNTERNET from actual CV users re MDF "failure".

We all make choices and there are alternatives out there for most products. I prefer to carefully point out differences.

[ian maybury]

The chances are it'd be possible to get into trouble with MDF in damp/high humidity conditions - but then you can always paint it and that's anyway not the scene in most woodworking shops.

The option if it really bothered you is there too to make your own fan by buying the impeller from CV (around $250), and building your own fan in e.g. birch plywood from Bill Pentz's drawings.

ian

[David Kumm]

The chances are it'd be possible to get into trouble with MDF in damp/high humidity conditions - but then you can always paint it and that's anyway not the scene in most woodworking shops.

The option if it really bothered you is there too to make your own fan by buying the impeller from CV (around $250), and building your own fan in e.g. birch plywood from Bill Pentz's drawings.

ian

Ian, didn't you add some support to your system> Seems like we talked about possible problems related to some of the newer high efficiency motors required in the US due to their weight. Seems like reinforcement would be pretty simple. Dave

[ian maybury]

Hi David. Yes, I did.

The locally available motor was a high efficiency Euro spec. ABB 230V/3phase/4kW item, and it plus my DIY cyclone in 1mm galvanised steel meant a much higher total hanging weight than is the case with the stock CV 1800 Max. (the US Leeson motor is much lighter, as is the PETG cyclone)

I wasn't sure it was needed, and for that matter it's early days yet so I don't know how it'll work out - but it seemed better to be safe rather than to discover any possible issue at some point in the future.

The MDF fan housing had already been delivered, so a 3mm mild steel reinforcing plate which bridges from the motor across the drop-in MDF motor mounting plate to pick up the threaded holes in the outer part of the fan housing (used by the MDF blocks that hold down the motor plate in the stock set up) seemed the easiest option. It was easy while in the area to up the hanger studs to M10 too.

The plate (including all the bolt holes) was CNC plasma cut by a local metal fab place to my drawing, and cost the equivalent of about $30. Programming is quick, and cutting is fast, pretty clean and accurate to within about 0.2mm they said. This demo by an equipment maker on YouTube shows a plasma profiler in action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBBn1K-7p1c

You can see my plate in the photos below, although it's not yet bolted down to the cyclone body. The hole in the MDF motor mount plate in the unpainted shot hasn't been opened up to match the larger mounting flange on the ABB motor yet, although the reinforcing plate is to size.

The other precaution taken was to use birch ply for the top disc in the cyclone (24mm which was overkill, but I had a piece to hand) - the third photo shows it with the fan inlet tube mounted in it. The screws that attach the lower side housing of the fan to it were chosen to be of a decent diameter (5mm) for good grip, plenty were used, and they were placed out close to the OD to minimise any leverage effect.

ian

224137224136224138224139

[David Kumm]

Your modification, Ian, should help those considering the clearvue but worried about the MDF choice. I'm surprised they don't offer an upgrade for those willing to pay for some steel in the system. Dave

[Bob Wingard]

I don't get all the concern about ClearVue's use of plastic/mdf in the blower housing ... how much wear & tear does one expect to occur in these parts ??? Look at the cheesy plastic shroud surrounding your engine's fan assembly which protects you from a big blade attached to about 300HP.

I have a ClearVue, and I applaud them for using materials that make sense for the application at hand. Steel & aluminum might make Tim Allen happy, but I'm quite O.K. with plastic & mdf in this application.

[David Kumm]

I don't get all the concern about ClearVue's use of plastic/mdf in the blower housing ... how much wear & tear does one expect to occur in these parts ??? Look at the cheesy plastic shroud surrounding your engine's fan assembly which protects you from a big blade attached to about 300HP.

I have a ClearVue, and I applaud them for using materials that make sense for the application at hand. Steel & aluminum might make Tim Allen happy, but I'm quite O.K. with plastic & mdf in this application.

Bob, I think the only valid concern has to do with the weight of the motor supported by the housing. Ian has a heavy motor and Clearvue has suspended the sale of their 3 phase unit because they received a shipment of motors too heavy for the current MDF housing. I don't want to speak for them as they may have worked the problem out or perhaps will fill us in. Dave

[ian maybury]

Must say I think that far from being a disadvantage the use of readily available/accessible parts, materials and manufacturing methods (like the MDF in the fan housing) actually results in an incredibly flexible and adaptable design. Even if something does go wrong it's 100% fixable.

The other fundamental point is that it's not like e.g. the fan is less efficient than the commercial version with pressed metal housings. It's not even going to rust dammit! :)

I should say that while I went for a galvanised steel cyclone it wasn't because i'm aware of any problem with the PETG version. What mattered for me was simply that I wanted to go the DIY route to save some money (the cost shipping over the Atlantic wasn't an option), but wanted also to get the blank cone and the cylinder rolled and seamed as i didn't have the kit to do it right myself.

I'd a choice of several well equipped HVAC fab outfits with rollers within easy reach all keen for business, and since i've some metal fabrication experience too it also made it a lot easier for me to handle forming/assembling the spiral, inlet chute, fan inlet, exhaust etc from basic transitions and the like myself.

It's very much a mindset deal. It'd have been nice to have bought a ready to run system from a commercial supplier, and it'd have been even nicer to have been into commercial work months before. But going this route has been very cost effective - it's delivered a top spec set up for the cost of a very basic system; and it really gets you into the engineering with the result that you end up understanding your system much better than might otherwise be the case. For a hobbyist one project is surely as good as another???

It's not even like it's an unproven route - there's literally 1000s have done something similar (built systems based on Bill Pentz's designs) and ended up similarly satisfied. There's a whole community out there that like to play with dust systems - so there's always help available.

I'm just very grateful to Bill for the work he did in setting it all out. I knew from about 18m ago that I had to get a decent system, and started searching. Bill's pages and his basic integrity switched the light on for me. I actually came very close to putting out a similar amount of money for a larger bag filter set up than the one I had that could never have come close to performing like these do.

Anyway. End of commercial.

ian

[John Coloccia]

Considering that current owners seem to have nothing but praise for the Clearvue product and the company, it's difficult to attribute any criticism about construction and durability by non-owners to anything but sour grapes. If anyone knows of any real failures or problems, I'm sure we'd all like to know, especially owners like me, but they're either not happening or no one is reporting them.

[David Kumm]

Considering that current owners seem to have nothing but praise for the Clearvue product and the company, it's difficult to attribute any criticism about construction and durability by non-owners to anything but sour grapes. If anyone knows of any real failures or problems, I'm sure we'd all like to know, especially owners like me, but they're either not happening or no one is reporting them.

John, Don't put me in the critical of Clearvue camp. I think they are the best value in the market. They note some design limitations with the use of heavier motors and in fact have received a shipment of new high efficiency motors that came in too heavy for their current design. That is good knowledge for someone doing their own thing. There are things I like and dislike about all my stuff, just preferences. Dave

[Phil Maddox]

I think the 'plastic' cone is the best feature. You can see whats going on which many times, besides being entertaining, is actually helpful. ;)

I agree - the "clear" cone is very cool - I have a 24" section of 10" flex from my cone to the dust bin - the dust swirls in there and looks pretty cool, I can imagine it is even better with a CV.

I am aware of the properties of the PTEG material - I did a fair amount of research before I bought my Oneida.

The OP asked for something to push him over the edge so I presented my opinion. I don't like the MDF used for the blower housing. I can think of no advantage to it other than it is less expensive (quieter?). Why aren't part of other machines made from MDF? Other than outfeed tables and the like, MDF is not really used in any important structural piece of equipment.

The CV was originally developed by Mr. Morgano to the specifications of the "Pentz" cyclone with regard to dimensions, ratios and such. PTEG was chosen specifically because it could be made into a cylinder at room temperature without expensive equipment. The use of MDF for the blower housing was merely a cost savings measure - it was not deemed to be a superior material.

It has been well documented that the CV performs very well - it may be the best performing cyclone out there. But it is also made from materials that are not as stout as steel.

A CV with a steel impeller housing? That would be awesome!

Phil

[Phil Maddox]

I don't get all the concern about ClearVue's use of plastic/mdf in the blower housing ... how much wear & tear does one expect to occur in these parts ??? Look at the cheesy plastic shroud surrounding your engine's fan assembly which protects you from a big blade attached to about 300HP.

The cooling fan in a car engine is electric on most vehicles these days and is not attached to the engine. Very few engines are 300hp either.

Regardless - these are completely different animals.

A motor and fan wheel weigh a lot. The CV uses a product which is known to sag under it's own weight let alone having a motor on it and also does not handle moisture well. These are facts. Is it strong enough? Certainly for the short term but I want my DC to last the rest of my life.

If production has stopped due to increased weight of motors, it is obviously a problem that CV is addressing - maybe they will come out with welded steel housings.

Phil

[Phil Maddox]

Considering that current owners seem to have nothing but praise for the Clearvue product and the company, it's difficult to attribute any criticism about construction and durability by non-owners to anything but sour grapes. If anyone knows of any real failures or problems, I'm sure we'd all like to know, especially owners like me, but they're either not happening or no one is reporting them.

Sour grapes? About what? Again - no one ever said they weren't good - in fact I stated that they may be the best performing on the market.

That being said, why is it impossible to admit that steel is stronger than wood pulp and plastic?

My decision to buy the SDG was made on longevity. I know steel lasts a long time. I know that welds are stronger than caulking. I know Baldor motors last a long time (this one killed the Grizzly from contention for me). I don't know if an aluminum impeller lasts longer but I like the non-sparking nature of it.

I buy for the long haul - at least when I can afford to.

Phil

[John Coloccia]

And titanium is stronger than steel. What of it? The question isn't which is stronger. The question is whether or not the MDF and "plastic" in strong enough and appropriate in this specific application, and all the evidence seems to indicate the answer is "yes". The sour grapes is implying that it is an inferior product with absolutely no evidence at all to back it up.

[Phil Maddox]

And titanium is stronger than steel. What of it? The question isn't which is stronger. The question is whether or not the MDF and "plastic" in strong enough and appropriate in this specific application, and all the evidence seems to indicate the answer is "yes". The sour grapes is implying that it is an inferior product with absolutely no evidence at all to back it up.

Not an inferior product - inferior materials. How long have CV mdf housings been around? According to the website - about 8 years - maybe they'll last forever - maybe they won't. Steel has been around in pressure blowers for longer than that - by a lot.

How often do you use MDF in your woodworking? Just curious.

Phil

[John Coloccia]

Not an inferior product - inferior materials. How long have CV mdf housings been around? According to the website - about 8 years - maybe they'll last forever - maybe they won't. Steel has been around in pressure blowers for longer than that - by a lot.

How often do you use MDF in your woodworking? Just curious.

Phil

It's my product of choice when I need a template or a jig. I don't make guitars out of MDF, if that's what you're asking, but it gets used quite a bit.

[John Coloccia]

Okay, let's be clear about the path of the airflow. After the cyclone, which is all of the MDF in question, there will only be relatively clean air...only the dust that didn't drop will be in that airstream. After that, all of that air dumps into paper filters. On some units the clean out is just a plastic bag. If paper and plastic bags can survive the onslaught, MDF can too. It's a non issue.

If the motor or the cyclone is heavier, sure weight might be an issue....but it's not heavier so it's not an issue. Incidentally, mine lifts up the trash can when I turn it on, even if it's full of saw dust....and it's HEAVY when it's full of saw dust. That mount can take quite a bit of weight, so I doubt a few extra lbs here and there would make a difference on the mount. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know why they rejected the motor just because of weight.

[Greg Portland]

Considering that current owners seem to have nothing but praise for the Clearvue product and the company, it's difficult to attribute any criticism about construction and durability by non-owners to anything but sour grapes. If anyone knows of any real failures or problems, I'm sure we'd all like to know, especially owners like me, but they're either not happening or no one is reporting them.
I have one of the earliest models and did have some trouble with the MDF splitting. I did not finish the MDF so I'm sure moisture was a factor. I replaced it with some (finished) Appleply and have had no problems since that time. The PETG material shows zero sign of wear. Note that sealing up all the joints (part of the install process) is time consuming and you could make a cost argument if you factor in time. Remember, when CV started up there were no Dust Gorilla options... there were only poorly designed cyclones and commercial Oneida equipment.

[Phil Maddox]

Okay, let's be clear about the path of the airflow. After the cyclone, which is all of the MDF in question, there will only be relatively clean air...only the dust that didn't drop will be in that airstream. After that, all of that air dumps into paper filters. On some units the clean out is just a plastic bag. If paper and plastic bags can survive the onslaught, MDF can too. It's a non issue.

If the motor or the cyclone is heavier, sure weight might be an issue....but it's not heavier so it's not an issue. Incidentally, mine lifts up the trash can when I turn it on, even if it's full of saw dust....and it's HEAVY when it's full of saw dust. That mount can take quite a bit of weight, so I doubt a few extra lbs here and there would make a difference on the mount. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know why they rejected the motor just because of weight.

I'm not sure what you mean by the airflow. Did someone indicate that the MDF would be worn away by the airflow? I could see the plastic cone being worn away because it sees the un-separated dust and air and that may be abrasive enough over time to wear away at the inside but I doubt that the cleaner air would do this to the mdf, especially since it is 3/4" thick.

The weight is an issue as evidenced by CV stopping sales of the newer, heavier motors until they come up with a solution. This is what a good company should do and I applaud them for it.

It seems that everyone (except for Greg,who had an MDF blower housing failure) is intent on making the point that MDF is "good enough". I'm not sure that is true or not but I have not heard of a significant number of failures in the relatively short time it has been used for this purpose so it stands to reason that is may be adequate for the task. The real point, and the only point I tried to make is that I (me, no one else) think that steel is more durable than MDF and plastic. I would think, although I don't know this for sure, that most would agree with this statement.

I'd like to see a steel blower from CV that can be used with all motors, regardless of weight. I think that would be a HUGE advantage to those who don't care for the DIY nature of the CV. It won't matter to me because I have what I hope will be the last DC I will ever need.

Phil