quick question for the sharpening gurus -- hand sharpened single bevel practical?

[Mike Allen1010]

I read with great interest the threads related to the various sharpening stones currently available and I have a quick question for the sharpening gurus:

For the last 15 years I've used King Waterstone's for sharpening plane blades and chisels primarily because they were readily available and affordable (1200, 4,000 and 8,000 grit). For most tools I use a 25° primary bevel and 30° secondary bevel.

After following a number of threads here and watching the video on Stu's website, I bit the bullet and got a set of Sigma Power stones (1,000, 6,000 hard and 13,000). I noticed in Stu's video he sharpens what looks like at least 2"wide LN plane blade, sharpening the entire bevel (no secondary micro bevel) in what seems like about three minutes in real time (of course there's no way of knowing how dull it was to begin with).

My question is it a practical strategy to simply go with a single bevel? it seems like this would prevent me from ever having to re-grind the primary bevel (which I hate) and makes it easier to freehand sharpen because I have the whole width of the blade to register on the stone.

I generally don't let my edge tools get very dull and strop in between sharpening. How long would it take to put a fresh, single bevel edge on a 2" wide LN (or similar blade) using just the stones? I generally use a Veritas MK II honing guide but think I might be able to go freehand with the single bevel plan (e.g. maybe I don't need to learn how to use that grinder after all!)

Thanks a lot, I appreciate the advice!

Mike

[Chris Griggs]

It works, but for westerns blades anyway, I find it too be slower and more difficult. A hollow ground bevel is the quickest, easiest way to I know of to freehand a single bevel, since your registering a large bevel (well really just two points of the bevel which is even easier), but only remove the amount of steal that you would on a micro bevel. Truth be told I've been lazy about refreshing my hollow grinds lately so I have been finding myself either honing on full flat bevels or if I'm feeling really lazy just freehanding on micro bevels. Freehanding a micro bevel sounds really hard since it hard to be exact with repeatability, but its such a small amount of metal that a little variation from honing to honing seems to get negated, at least until the secondary bevel starts to grow large.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I have a couple of chisels I do this with, simply because with a lot of the shaping work I do with them, I like to have the full bevel on the blade (as opposed to the hollow ground I usually do) as I find it gives me a little more control when working bevel down, as I roll in and out of a cut. I'm probably just crazy. If I keep up on the edge maintenance, it's not really an issue. The widest blade I'm working like this is a 40mm chisel, but being a chisel, it's also a good bit thicker than a plane blade. I find it takes me a little longer to feel a burr when honing (which is sort of how I judge when to go up to the next step) but it's not crazy difficult or long or anything.

Maybe if I was dealing with A2 instead of whatever these are made of, it'd be different, but it doesn't bother me. The only thing I notice is that I find myself going to the 1000 grit stone a lot more with the wider one of these than the blades that I hollow grind, but I'm not sure if that's out of necessity or not - I'm kind of going by my gut.

With most of my blades, if I'm sharpening frequently enough, I use my 5000 grit, and then finish out on the 8000 grit. I'm using Naniwa Superstones because I'm cheap. For a little bit better edge, I often let the 8000 get a little dry and the abrasive a little worn for my final polish before scuffing it up to fresh abrasive for another round of blades.

I like a hollow grind, it makes things easier, but I find the only time I really feel like I need it is for thinner blades - with the thickness of most of my chisels, there's enough that I can make things work without it.

[Bob Strawn]

On my turning tools I use a hollow ground bevel, but on plane blades and chisels, I use a single bevel. On a chisel, I find that a hollow bevel is more likely to wedge into a cut. On a plane, a hollow bevel is more likely to dolphin or chatter. When sharpening by hand, I prefer the broad surface of the single bevel as a reference for stropping or honing.

A double bevel makes long term blade maintenance more complex. If managed perfectly it can save blade. More often than not it does the opposite and forces you to remove more blade for the same amount of cuts. It has been argued that a double bevel is stronger. A single bevel with the same final bevel angle is much stronger than a double bevel. The one place I prefer to use a double bevel is when I am away from my shop. A quick micro bevel will allow fast sharpening. It is a good way to show off and put a good edge on quickly. If I were a typical salesman in a booth showing of my sharpening system I would definitely use a microbevel to sell my methods. The trick would be that I would start the day with a flat bevel on my tools. The bad part of my sales method would be that after showing you how easy it is to sharpen with my system, you would then take it home, have great success several times and eventually end up frustrated with the method. The sacrifice here is that the micro bevel becomes a secondary bevel as you sharpen more and eventually your blade is more obtuse. You will always have to grind the double bevel back to a flat bevel and waste blade material, whenever you secondary bevel gets too large. If your method is to always return your tool to a flat bevel and then put a micro bevel on your tool, you could have gotten twice the life out of your tool by using the blade with a single bevel before you put the microbevel on it.

I over sharpen my tools, I consider them dull the moment I can tell they are no longer as sharp. a flat bevel maintained by constant stropping helps me keep from quickly grinding my tools down to nubs.

The real advantage of a single bevel is that it allows you to use your chisel in more ways. By sliding the bevel along a flat surface that needs cleaning up, your chisel can act as a flush cut plane or float. A double bevel cannot do this. A hollow bevel might dig in and damage the surface. A large flat bevel will do this wonderfully. A flat bevel on a chisel will make for straighter mortise or dovetail walls because a flat bevel can be used as a reference. A micro bevel on a chisel means that the edge of the blade will be offset from a surface when the main bevel is placed against the surface. This means that cuts that continue the surface plane are more likely to crush grain or drift away from the surface as the cut is made.

Bob

[Jim Koepke]

My question is it a practical strategy to simply go with a single bevel? it seems like this would prevent me from ever having to re-grind the primary bevel (which I hate) and makes it easier to freehand sharpen because I have the whole width of the blade to register on the stone.

I generally don't let my edge tools get very dull and strop in between sharpening. How long would it take to put a fresh, single bevel edge on a 2" wide LN (or similar blade) using just the stones?

Wow, some good answers on this. I'm just going to add my 223770.

The advantages and disadvantages of the hollow grind are good. It is much easier to get the feel of metal on the stone with a hollow grind. It also removes a lot of metal when a blade is hollow ground. My shop doesn't have a wheel grinder at present. Most of my experience with hollow ground blades are ones that I have bought used.

If my blades are sharpened before they get overly dull, they can usually be touched up on an 8000 stone quickly. Most of the time with even a light chip the blades do not need anything coarser than a 1000.

My most difficult blade to sharpen is from my LN #62. It is a quarter inch thick and sometimes has stiction with the stones. This is the blade most likely to get a secondary bevel.

A flat bevel is a bit more difficult to feel on the stone. I tend to give the back of the blade a few swipes on the stone and then work the bevel. The edge contact can be recognized by the reaction of the water or oil on the stone.

jtk

[Jack Curtis]

On my turning tools I use a hollow ground bevel, but on plane blades and chisels, I use a single bevel. ... The real advantage of a single bevel is that it allows you to use your chisel in more ways. By sliding the bevel along a flat surface that needs cleaning up, your chisel can act as a flush cut plane or float. A double bevel cannot do this. A hollow bevel might dig in and damage the surface. A large flat bevel will do this wonderfully. A flat bevel on a chisel will make for straighter mortise or dovetail walls because a flat bevel can be used as a reference. A micro bevel on a chisel means that the edge of the blade will be offset from a surface when the main bevel is placed against the surface. This means that cuts that continue the surface plane are more likely to crush grain or drift away from the surface as the cut is made. ...

Finally, someone else agrees with me. My problem is that I've always used flat bevels (and backs), so I don't know all the reasons I've never had these problems. A message for the ages, Bob.

[Richard Jones]

I'm sorry , but who is Stu?

Thanks.

[Stuart Tierney]

I'm sorry , but who is Stu?

Thanks.

Don't ask me who that masked man is... :confused:

(No, really. I'm highly infectious with Influenza type A and Mrs. Schtoo is making me wear a mask.)

That blade was serviceable, but not really sharp. Doesn't matter, since the #1000 wiped any edge off it anyway. Blade is for a LN #164, so it's no chintzy little, soft petal of a blade.

(Pity I didn't catch myself doing the sharpening one handed, gesticulating with the other...)

Bob! Long time no see anywhere. :)

I keep that one with a full flat, 25* bevel because, well, I can sharpen one handed with it like that. Not recommended at all, but not impossible and it's just something I do sometimes when bored/showing off (to nobody).

The other blade gets a 50* microbevel, primary at 25* and both started on the #1000, the edge finished with whatever I'm using at the time.

(Note, can only do one handed, full bevel on Sigma Select II, Sigma Ceramic, Naniwa Chosera/Snow White, King and a few other stones, all soakers. Wouldn't try it with a Shapton GS or Pro, Naniwa SS or anything like that.)

That 3 minutes was about normal, slow speed for a thorough re-hash of the edge. I want to get fresh metal in the edge, then that's about how long it takes. Probably less, maybe more. For a touch up, with stones all ready, a quick lick on the #6000 and then #13000 (or whatever I'm using) and off again.

I hate leaving remnants of a dead edge on things, and I hate having to add anything 'sporadic' to things. If it's the same every time, I'm happy. I suppose I could slip a grinder in there if I wanted to use a hollow grind or whatnot, but I do have some Japanese steel kicking about (like that's a shock!) and most of my sharpening is done here at home now, no grinders.

But the short version is I like flat, smooth bevels and they're not difficult to have with decent sharpening gear.

And there's also no such thing as a free lunch. No matter what the edge is, you have to grind through steel to get and keep it. Either do it in big bites or little nibbles, you still have to get through it.

I prefer to nibble. Back or bevel, I nibble.

Stu.

[David Weaver]

If you want to do a full bevel, you're better with laminated blades.

You can sharpen the entire bevel in a non-laminated blade, especially with modern stones, but the first time you get a nick in the iron from something predictable or unpredictable, you're going to be wishing for a grinder.

Even hard wear (without nicks) to a plane iron that is no longer cutting will take a while to remove.

Once in a while, you will see someone say they prefer thin irons because thick and hard irons are too hard to sharpen. Usually, that will be someone who is maintaining the entire bevel by hand.

If you want to do it entirely by hand, you're better off talking to stu to find out what a good coarse stone would be to maintain the primary bevel and putting a secondary bevel on freehand (which isn't hard to do). You put only a small bevel on by hand, and when you regrind the iron on a coarse stone, you do so until you've nearly run that second bevel off, so there is no real complexity to it.

[James Owen]

....My question is it a practical strategy to simply go with a single bevel? it seems like this would prevent me from ever having to re-grind the primary bevel (which I hate) and makes it easier to freehand sharpen because I have the whole width of the blade to register on the stone....

In a word, yes.

I use a single bevel on everything except mortise chisels and turning tools, and free-hand sharpen everything except mortise chisels and turning tools. (I use a slow-speed grinder and a Wolverine Jig for my HSS turning tools, and a Veritas MkII to get a consistent secondary bevel on the mortise chisels.)

My experience has been that a flat bevel makes it very easy to register the bevel to the stone and keep a consistent bevel while free-handing it; the bigger the bevel (i.e., the thicker the iron/chisel), the easier it is to register. Thinner irons, such as the original Stanley plane irons, give me the most difficulty (relatively speaking).

I look to re-hone or re-sharpen whenever the iron or the chisel starts dragging a little in the cut. For plane irons, the difference in the sound as the iron slices shavings away is one clue that it is getting dull. By not waiting until the edge reaches a point where it is truly dull, it takes only about 30 to maybe 90 seconds -- most of the time -- to re-new the edge; most of the time, it takes longer to dis-assemble and re-assemble the iron from/to the plane than to re-sharpen it. Chisels tend to be on the faster end of the scale for obvious reasons.

Most of the time, I use an 1800 grit and a 2000 grit Spiderco ceramic stone to re-new the edges; quick, easy, clean, nice polish, and gets the tool end-grain-pine-shavings sharp. If I slip-up and let the edge get too dull, then I run through the grits (800, 1200, 4000, 8000), as necessary, on a set of King water stones, and finish on the 2000 ceramic.

[Don Jarvie]

For what its worth. I'm currently taking a course at the North Bennett St School and a 1/3 of the class is sharpening. We've been taught and quite well I might say to use a single bevel at 28 degrees. As you all know, flatten the back, hollow grind on the grinder and then hone on the stone.

The justification of the 28 degree angle is its high enough of an angle that you won't have to keep sharpening you tools as often with often being how much you use them.

[Bob Strawn]

Don't ask me who that masked man is... :confused:

(No, really. I'm highly infectious with Influenza type A and Mrs. Schtoo is making me wear a mask.)

Stu.

It is great to hear from you! :) but sad to hear that you are not well. :(

Bob