European Table Saw vs Conventional Table Saw like Saw Stop

[John Adank]

I'm going to be in the market for a new table saw next year and can't seem to make up my mind on what kind. I am really sold on the safety of the Saw Stop and was pretty sure that was what I was going to purchase but I started looking at the European saws again and have come to a crossroads. I kind of had my mind made up to buy the Saw Stop for the safety reasons only. I was thinking of adding a Incra fence to it and figured I'd have a great set up when done. I started looking at the Hammer K3 Winner again and the Mini Max. The European saws have had built in safety devices for years and I am kind of attracted to the sliding table for cross cutting and ripping. I know I have a lot of time to make my decision and no matter what way I go, I will have a good quality saw but I was wondering if anyone out there was experiencing the same dilemma as I and could offer some suggestions.

Thanks,
John

[frank shic]

you could always attach a sliding table to the sawstop.

[Neil Brooks]

you could always attach a sliding table to the sawstop.

+1

At that point, I think you're entering "flip a coin" territory, where ... you simply win, either way.

[Frank Martin]

I am on the same boat. I have a Unisaw and thinking about the SawStop with a Jessem Slider (purchased during Woodcraft closeout) and Incra fence. Two reasons for this in my case:
1 - Sawstop has the brake vs. euro machines don't. I know euro machines are inherently safer than american style cabinet saws, but accidents can still happen, no two ways about it. I won't go into a long argument, but to me this is no different from airbags, anti lock brakes, side collision bars, adaptive cruise control etc., on the cars that make them safer. I have never been in a serious car accident other than getting rear ended by women about twice a year with bumper damage, but safety is always a big factor when I purchase cars. So, no different here.
2 - To effectively use the euro slider for ripping in addition to cross cutting, you need a long stroke machine (~8 ft). I simply don't have the space in my 2-car garage for that.

[Stephen Cherry]

First of all, think about dust collection. THe eurosliders have great dust collection both above and below the blade. And the dust can cause serious heath issues, maybe even moreso that cutting off your finger.

Second, the blade gaurd. Mostly you would have a hard time getting your finger under the guard to cut it off.

The rip fence- most of the euro fences have adjustments to position the fence so the workpiece is not trapped between the blade and fence.

The position of the blade- the euro format machines have the blade on the edge of the saw to take advantage of the slide. With a little head scratching, and a few holddown clamps, almost everything is possible with the slide. Add in a swing away feeder and you are set up. THe other saws stick with the obsolete setup of having the blade in the middle of the table- both thumbs pointing at the blade.

Kickback- I think that the eurosaw is the winner in this safety issue, with the wood securely clamped to the sliding table.

Scoring blades- if you do sheet material, the euromachine is better with a scoring blade.

As for the slide length- 8 feet fits in a garage, but it is tight. Also for a normal table saw, you need the same footprint if you want to rip full sheets, the wood has to go somewhere.

[Jerome Hanby]

+1

At that point, I think you're entering "flip a coin" territory, where ... you simply win, either way.

Don't the "real" sliders have sliding tables that come much closer to the blade?

[Greg Portland]

The European saws have had built in safety devices for years and I am kind of attracted to the sliding table for cross cutting and ripping.You can perform virtually all operations away from the blade on a Euro saw (assuming good clamps on the slider). Add a power feeder for long rips for additional safety. I prefer the slider mechanism because you stand off to the side (away from the path of any kickback). The SS is a great saw too... just recognize that you can get injured by any tool in your shop (i.e. your brain is your #1 safety feature).

[David Kumm]

If the issue is about the braking, the SS is the only game in town. If the question is about which saw is the more versitile and the braking is a side issue, the comparison is more relevant. Even a short stroke slider is better or as good at most sawing operations than a traditional type saw. Bevel ripping would be an exception so if that is important you should consider that. An add on slider is a good "if you have no other choice" option but like nearly as handy as a real euro slider where you can clamp the work right next to the blade. You want a crosscut fence that can be removed quickly and return to 90 exactly and easily. For years I used a Rockwell 12-14 and a Hammond trim saw for crosscuts. Even with my slider I still use them but for panel work and bigger crosscutting the slider is light years ahead of a traditional US type saw. If you believe the traditional saw fits your needs the SS is an added bonus, but if not it isn't enough to cause me NOT to buy a slider. In fairness, I would not not give up my 12-14 for a SS, maybe a Tanny or Oliver though. Dave

[James Baker SD]

I think along similar lines to Stephen, if I ever replace my PM-66, I will look first toward quality of cut, second to the best dust collection possible, then to other safety features. While the sudden shock of running a finger into the spinning blade is dramatic (I know from personal experience--no fun, 2 surgeries plus 6 month of PT to regain use of that finger), the slow creeping up on you danger of dust in the lungs scares me a lot more now.

James

[Jeff Hamilton Jr.]

I was in EXACTLY the same position as you in 2008. In the end, I chose the MM CU300 and got rid of my separate jointer, planer and tablesaw. At first, I must admit, I thought I'd made a big mistake. While crosscutting is unparalleled (no pun intended!) with the euro sliders, the manner of work process was so different than a traditional table saw I was pulling my hair out! Now, I am just a hobbyist, so I didn't have gobs of time to practice. An hour or two here, and hour or two there and that was it. However, now 3.5 years into it, I feel I made the right decision. When you learn to use the slider and add jigs to it, it is FANTASTIC. Further, your hands are never even CLOSE to the blade and, in 99% of operations, your body is never behind the blade.

Someone mentioned that you need an 8+ ft. slider to rip. That is partially true. If you need to rip long boards that sure is ideal. However, there are folks out there that have devised jigs to allow you to rip twelve footers on the 5.5' slider! I've not done it, but have seen, for instance, Sam Blasco's video of him doing just that when he had the CU300. In actual practice, I'm not usually ripping boards longer than 5 feet, even when making dressers and the like. So . . . my 5.5' has served me just fine.

In the rare instance that I do a long rip, I use a circ saw with the EZSmart and that works extremely well.

With the prices in the cellar right now, You will find absolutely great deals on sliders and/or combos. I just saw one here (with more goddies than mine has) sell for 1/2 of what I paid and there was hardly any time on it.

Good luck with your purchase decision. If you don't mind retraining your brain for work process, I don't think you'll regret going with the slider.

[Carl Knapp]

There are a lot of great points in this thread. There are a few things I would like to add or comment on.

I have followed some of the knock down drag out threads regarding the saw stop technology and do not want to go there. I have been using euro style saws now for many years. With a euro saw there is no reason or need to ever put a body part near the blade, its path or put yourself in a compromising situation. After using a slider and I mean one that has been engineered into the saw. I feel uncomfortable when I have to use a US style saw.

1. Frank mentioned euro saws not having a brake, all saws sold under the Felder umbrella including Hammer have motor brakes. He meant the saw stop type lock up.
2. As mention and I agree 150 % You don't have to cut eight feet on the slider to take advantage of the sliders benefits. As a matter of fact in Europe, most people do not have the longer sliders.
3. You can still use the slider even if the cut is longer than its stroke. You just have to remove the cross cut fence and only reference the rip fence.
4. I don't think we should compare car safety to a saw. When I am using the saw, I am in full control, Especially on a Euro saw, If I get hurt, it's because I did something I shouldn't have.
5. You always hear that the splitter eliminates the worst accident, which is when tension within causes the board to close on the heal and then get launched, but what I do not hear is that because of the splitter I can keep my fingers away from the blade especially on those narrow fancy cuts, where as before I would be trying to keep the board against the fence getting my hands too close. Now I let the piece pass the splitter not having to worry. I take my second push stick, placing it against the back of the splitter like a feather board as the piece passes.
6. On narrow pieces, I just lay the rip fence down, which opens up the right side of the blade especially when cutting angels.
7. The other big accident, cross cutting, when the piece on the right cocks between the fence and the blade and launches. The slider and fence eliminates this alos. If you are doing repetitive cross cuts, just slide the rip fence back before the arbor.
8. Being able to clamp something to the slide is great.
9. Any jig you can imagine that you have ever used or seen can be mounted to the slider and used with full control and accuracy.
10. Scoring is great. It's ever good when cross cutting real brittle solid wood.
11. Someone already mentioned dust extraction.
12. Being able to measure on the left side gives you an atvantage.
13. Having an outrigger and large cross cut fence is even better.
14. Euro saws take up less room than the conventional cabinet saw.

[Eric McCune]

you could always attach a sliding table to the sawstop.

With all due respect, this is comparing apple and oranges. A saw designed to be a slider is not the same as attaching a slider to an American style saw.

My slider has an 80 inch slide. Not sure an after market add on can to that. I can so buy many attachments designed for my slider like parallel guides, hold downs, etc. My slider also runs extremely close to the blade, most after market slides are much further away from the blade. This allows for straight line ripping on the slider.

John, I had the same decision 2 years ago. I was sold on sawstop until people like Carl Knapp and Rod educated me on the European tools. I can't even imagine working without a european slider. The precision and accuracy makes it a joy to work with. It's easy to stay away from the blade and use guards.

Call felder and ask for a reference in your area. Go see them and talk to current users.

Good luck.

Eric

[Jerome Hanby]

I was thinking about this after making my post. Other than loosing a little bit of maximum cutting height, why couldn't you combine some of the features of a cross cut sled with an after market (or shop made) add on sliding table and end up with a slider that tracks right next to the blade? Seems like you could make the bar for the miter slot out of UHMW and maybe add some pads of the same stuff to cut down on resistance. The sliding table part could give you a lot more space in front of the blade than a "normal" crosscut sled would. You could probably get really creative and put a slider on both sides of the saw and create a "monster" sled.

[John Adank]

I appreciate all the advice and comments thus far. I will continue to explore the European saws. I would like to look at Felder,Hammer and Mini Max. I do have a small shop so space is a concern but I know that some of the smaller models require the same size footprint as the traditional cabinet saw. I wish I could find some of these saws near by to look at. I also kind of wanted to go to a woodworking show to see some of this machinery. Not sure where that would be possible. Any suggestions would be great. Thanks again everyone. This is a great professional site.

[Jim Andrew]

My buddy's SCM takes up enough room to fill a garage. And he says that parts are a real pain. The dro on the fence quit, and hasn't been able to get it fixed.

[Eric McCune]

I do have a small shop so space is a concern

My shop is 16x18. I went with full combo machine. I love it. Works great for me and the space I have.

[David Kumm]

Mark Duginske has a nice little MM slider for sale in WI. There are always used sliders available at a pretty good price in you are patient. Dave

[John Adank]

Do you have link for that saw in WI or Mark's contact info?
Thank you

[Phil Thien]

I'm surprised at the comments of being more fearful of dust, than amputation.

I don't think there is any evidence that occasional (hobbyist) woodworkers suffer any long-term consequences from exposure to dust.

Mark me as much more concerned about amputation.

[Stephen Cherry]

I'm surprised at the comments of being more fearful of dust, than amputation.

I don't think there is any evidence that occasional (hobbyist) woodworkers suffer any long-term consequences from exposure to dust.

Mark me as much more concerned about amputation.


cough, cough, ..... cough.



http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/ntp/roc/twelfth/profiles/WoodDust.pdf

[George Panagopoulos]

John,

In my experience Saw stop and MM sliders are both well built for hobby use. You can find minor details to point to in each machine to find flaws, but both are good build quality. I would not conclude the MM slider has better dust collection than Saw Stop. Both have under blade and over blade systems. If anything the top blade guard is a better design on Saw Stop than the MM410 Elite combo. A Shark Guard would beat both especially with a 4" dia. feed for the vacuum. I had a combo machine and did not like constantly changing things so I went back to seperates. The best advice I can give is to use the slider and also consider how much sheet goods will you process and if it fits how you want to work. Just focusing on the quality of the machine could cause you to end up with a nice machine that you do not like working with all the time. I'm not trying to start a debate between sliders and cabinet saws. My point is to factor in how you work and what you make and use both before making the decision.

[Jay Winzenz]

John:

Don't know where you live, but I live in south-central Wisconsin and have a MM CU300 Smart if you'd like to take a look.

[David Kumm]

Go on www.allofcraigs.com (http://www.allofcraigs.com) and search " Planer and Saw" and it will come up. Says Wausau WI but looks like Mark's place in Merrill which is slightly North. SC4W I believe is the saw. Dave

[Jim Becker]

Euro slider for me...

[Larry Edgerton]

I have both a SCMI slider and a PM66 in my shop. My slider is a 5'5" so I use the PM66 to rip plywood to width. I do not see this as a safety issue, have never even had a close call of any kind in over 30 years ripping plywood. I have a power feed on the PM66 so for roughing out stock and ripping plywood it works fine, but the saw that I use the most is the slider. If I could only have one I would keep the slider.

Hope this helps......

Larry

[John Adank]

David, I found the link for the MM saw on craigslist. Hopefully he still has it for sale. He's actually only about 3-4 hours from where I live so it would work out really well. Hopefully, I hear something.

[John Coloccia]

FWIW, on an old resurrected thread, I like my SawStop and it's the only western saw I would buy today, but given a chance to go back and do it all over again, a European combo machine is a no brainer. I don't think I will ever purchase another western saw unless I absolutely have to for some strange reason.

[Greg Portland]

My buddy's SCM takes up enough room to fill a garage. And he says that parts are a real pain. The dro on the fence quit, and hasn't been able to get it fixed.
Did he call Mini Max? I believe the models are very similar (possibly interchangeable parts)?

[Mike Heidrick]

Part of the awesomeness about euro sliders is the combo sliding shaper and tablesaw you can get.

[John Adank]

David Kumm, not sure if my private message was sent. You can call me at 608-386-0653.
Thanks,
John

[Rob Sack]

If you have the space, I would get the SawStop with an Excaliber sliding table. If fact, I just did that instead of buying a European slide. I couldn't be happier.

[John Adank]

I actually thought about getting a saw stop and adding an Incra fence to it . Still thinking about it

[Mark Roderick]

I've never understood the attraction of the Sawstop, to tell you the truth. The blade stops if you touch it, but I've always thought that kickback and dust protection were the larger safety issues with a tablesaw. Ten years ago the European saws were much more advance on both counts but I think the American manufacturers have caught up.

[Jordan Lane]

I am a recent owner of a sliding table saw and i am not yet convinced i made the right purchase, while crosscuts are dead on and straight-line ripping is very good, i have not learned how to make narrow rip cuts and work with small pieces yet that I was accustomed to on the sled for the cabinet saw i used to own. It IS an impressive piece of machinery though. A saw Stop was on my menu as well and still may be in the future , we'll see the verdict is still out

[Chris Tsutsui]

I had a grizzly cabinet saw with excalibur sliding table attachment. It was difficult to adjust and get it to cut perfect 90 degree angles and I was afraid to look at it because it could lose its settings.

I like Sawstop's technology but after worrying about false brakes and playing around with them at the showrooms, I sort of seemed like I'd be bowling with the gutters blocked. :)

I now have a K3 Winner with the cam action clamp which works great if you have the clamp pull the work piece towards the fence and hold it down. I feel it can be very safe and the only time I put myself in danger is my hands go near the blade when using the rip fence. I definitely feel like there's very little chance of kickback when using the slider, except when trimming small floating pieces like a bad tenon or dovetail. :) I did this one and tiny pieces went flying though I could literally duck and cover with my hand on the handle sliding the table so I'm no where near the "danger area".

I'm 100% satisifed right now with my setup though for other peoples interest, I'm looking into sawstop's sliding tablesaw to come out though i know it's going to cost an arm and a leg... to save a finger or two...

[Chris Parks]

I'm surprised at the comments of being more fearful of dust, than amputation.

I don't think there is any evidence that occasional (hobbyist) woodworkers suffer any long-term consequences from exposure to dust.

Mark me as much more concerned about amputation.

I have spoken to and sold equipment to "occasional, hobbyists" as you term them due to the ill effects of wood dust that they were suffering, in fact few weeks would go by without at least one such conversation. I had a wife of a hobbyist ring me and order a system because of the issue which her husband personally would not recognise, his wife could observe them and became concerned with his constant coughing, sneezing etc and acted to help him. Men are blind to health issues concerning themselves, it is a proven fact that we do not want to address them unless absolutely forced to so I guess you are one of those Phil? BTW none of this belittles the prospect of cutting a finger off, ouch!

[Richard McComas]

"European Table Saw vs Conventional Table Saw like Saw Stop"


A European saw will cut a hot dog in half, a saw stop won't.

[Neil Brooks]

If I were just getting started ... I'd probably start with snowboarding, instead of snow skiing.

If I were just getting started .... I'd probably buy a slider, instead.

I can't really explain either of these, well. I figure ... they either make sense to you or they don't ;)

[Rob Sack]

The larger Excalibur sliding table has the capacity of most short stroke European sliders and with the SawStop's factory fence, the length of solid lumber when ripping is only limited by shop space and front and rear support. As far as the Excalibur is concerned, I think it is every bit as accurate when set up properly as any European slider when cross cutting, and although I try to be careful about banging into it, their latest version seems to stay in adjustment. I had one of their first units, and bumping into it could knock it out of alignment. I have cut panel after panel with the Excalibur pushed to its limits of capacity, and consistently produce panels that are within 1/32" when checking the diagonals. As far as kickbacks are concerned, my SawStop has the best splitter system that I have ever used. Before I bought my SawStop with the additional Excalibur sliding table, I checked out virtually every short stroke European style slider on the market. I have never regretted deciding on the SawStop/Excalibur.

[frank shic]

+1 exaktor/excalibur sliding table on to a contractor/cabinet saw of your choice. i bolted the legs to the floor, rob, to prevent it from getting out of alignment when i invariably bump into it.

[Ricky Rater]

A European saw will cut a hot dog in half, a saw stop won't.[/QUOTE]

That's funny right there, I don't care who you are.

I'm hoping for a Euro slider myself but we will have to see what happens. I'm watching Craigslist patiently and saving up.

[johnny means]

I've never understood the attraction of the Sawstop, to tell you the truth. The blade stops if you touch it, but I've always thought that kickback and dust protection were the larger safety issues with a tablesaw. Ten years ago the European saws were much more advance on both counts but I think the American manufacturers have caught up.

In all my years as a professional woodworker I have never seen one substantial injury or disfigurement from a kick back that didn't involve being cut by the blade. I have, however, seen dozens of amputations and disfigurements from table saw blade contacts. I am sure people are hurt by flying lumber all the time, but those injuries just aren't changing lives and causing the amount of suffering that blade contacts do. As far the health affects of wood dust, as far as I can see the studies tend to sound more alarming than the numbers bare out.

[John Coloccia]

I am a recent owner of a sliding table saw and i am not yet convinced i made the right purchase, while crosscuts are dead on and straight-line ripping is very good, i have not learned how to make narrow rip cuts and work with small pieces yet that I was accustomed to on the sled for the cabinet saw i used to own. It IS an impressive piece of machinery though. A saw Stop was on my menu as well and still may be in the future , we'll see the verdict is still out

I'm not sure I understand. To the right of the blade, using the fence, it is the same as a western saw. To the left of the blade, you have a sliding table that can be configured to act like any sled. I'm thinking of upgrading to a slider myself, so I really am curious why it would be a limitation.

[Jordan Lane]

using the fence on my slider is not the same as an American cabinet saw.....the undercarriage on the slider sticks out a good 24" beyond the table top so you are leaning over the slider to use the fence for ripping ....its slightly uncomfortable but i am sure its just a learning curve....as far as crosscuts...the minimum crosscut without jigging up ia about 6 or 7 inches. I'll either have to figure out a few jigs , or adapt a different way of working for handling small crosscuts on small pieces. Don't get me wrong i like the machine, there's just not an abundance of help ( that i can find) with techniques on a European saw like there is on a cabinet saw. Its got me scratching my head until i figure this beast out. There are accessories like the parallel rip fences for the slider but very expensive. With one of those you would rarely use the traditional fence at all. The slider would do everything.

[John Coloccia]

using the fence on my slider is not the same as an American cabinet saw.....the undercarriage on the slider sticks out a good 24" beyond the table top so you are leaning over the slider to use the fence for ripping ....its slightly uncomfortable but i am sure its just a learning curve....as far as crosscuts...the minimum crosscut without jigging up ia about 6 or 7 inches. I'll either have to figure out a few jigs , or adapt a different way of working for handling small crosscuts on small pieces. Don't get me wrong i like the machine, there's just not an abundance of help ( that i can find) with techniques on a European saw like there is on a cabinet saw. Its got me scratching my head until i figure this beast out. There are accessories like the parallel rip fences for the slider but very expensive. With one of those you would rarely use the traditional fence at all. The slider would do everything.

Is this a sliding table saw or a cabinet saw with a slider attached? All of the sliders I've seen are close to zero clearance between the blade and the sliding table, so there shouldn't be any problem crosscutting much less that 6". Even sliding table attachments have bars that can be set for almost a zero clearance, so I'm still a bit confused. Which model do you have?

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi John, on the large sliders the cabinet is best described as a square with a long rectangle on the left side. This can make some ripping tasks awkward if you try to stand in the "normal" position for ripping.

A small slider like mine is a single square, so it works like a cabinet saw, except it's easier since the sliding table often provides infeed/outfeed support..........Regards, Rod.

[Jordan Lane]

the way the fences are set up on the Felder k700s, crosscuts under 6 inches need to be jigged out ...Mine is a 9 foot slider with a 1500mm outrigger..its a wonderful saw i just need to figure out the small cuts...this is a learning process for me as it is a whole new way of ripping and cutting.. the longer sliders John have a extension to support the sliders at the back of the saw. You cannot assume the stance of a traditional cabinet saw

[John Coloccia]

OK, gotcha. I'm more familiar with the small, square saws so I was not picturing what was going on correctly :)

[John Adank]

Jay, I was just reading through some of the posts again and saw yours. I live in La Crosse WI. I know you said you had one of the larger mini max machines. Where exactly do you live?