Unibond 800 alternatives

[Corey Filkins]

My current project is a maple workbench where the top is made up of five sections five inches wide. Each section is made up of three one inch thick boards glued together to form a tongue and groove three inch thick board.

The plans were from fww 209 by Garrett Hack. He calls out unibond 800 but I am not a big fan of using urea formelihide glue indoors with little kids and dogs in the house.

What alternatives would give good results to glue three one inch thick x five inch wide x84 inch long boards together?

How about Titebond cold Press veneer glue?

Thanks in advance for you feedback. Once I get everything ready to start cutting , planing, and glueing I'll get some pictures up.

[HANK METZ]

With Unibond, once you've mixed the two components together you can unmask, so the critical period is actually very short and local. Titebond has a nasty way of separating and requires constant stirring to reincorporate all the ingredients.

- Beachside Hank

[Thomas Hotchkin]

Corey
Plastic Resin Glue now made by DAP. Comes as a dry powder that you mix water with by weight. USE a dust mask when mixing. I have been using this glue for over 40 years. Has some down sides to it as to temperature that glue is useable (open time). Good-luck below 60 degrees F. Very long open time at at around 70 degrees, above that, open time starts getting very short, at 100 F it like 5 minutes. I get my glue at my local ACE Hardware. Is very water resistant., glue drys very hard and brown in color. And it is still used today to build homemade aircraft wood wings. I used it to glue up my work bench. One last thing, read the MSDS. Tom

[Jamie Buxton]

I used to use Unibond 800 for bent laminations, and situations when I need a long working time. But like you I got to worrying about formaldehyde exposure. I now use epoxy. It too can offer long working time. You pick your catalyst to set the cure time. System Three and West are the big brand names. They're available from the usual woodworking catalogs.

[Jamie Buxton]

With Unibond, once you've mixed the two components together you can unmask, so the critical period is actually very short and local...

I wasn't able to find much solid information about when the formaldehyde comes out of the glue, or what level of exposure is okay. Can you direct me to source materials that support your summary?

[HANK METZ]

I wasn't able to find much solid information about when the formaldehyde comes out of the glue, or what level of exposure is okay. Can you direct me to source materials that support your summary?

http://community.woodmagazine.com/t5/General-Woodworking/Gluing-up-bent-laminations/m-p/215907#M49426

[Jerome Hanby]

Titebond has a nasty way of separating and requires constant stirring to reincorporate all the ingredients.

- Beachside Hank

Wish I had read this two weeks ago. I threw out some Titebond that had probably just separated. Guess I also experimentally verified that I just needed to mix it back up, because I had part of a bottle of Titebond III in a similar state, and I mixed it back up and glued a test piece to see if it was still good and it worked fine.

[Jamie Buxton]

http://community.woodmagazine.com/t5/General-Woodworking/Gluing-up-bent-laminations/m-p/215907#M49426

So that guy is concerned about inhaling Unibond's catalyst, which is a fine powder. He makes no mention of formaldehyde, which is a gas. The construction industry is concerned about formaldehyde, which is on the federal list of carcinogens. They've been changing the glues used in plywood and OSB to reduce homeowner exposure to formaldehyde. There are now state and federal laws about allowable formaldehyde content in wood-based products.

[HANK METZ]

So that guy is concerned about inhaling Unibond's catalyst, which is a fine powder. He makes no mention of formaldehyde, which is a gas. The construction industry is concerned about formaldehyde, which is on the federal list of carcinogens. They've been changing the glues used in plywood and OSB to reduce homeowner exposure to formaldehyde. There are now state and federal laws about allowable formaldehyde content in wood-based products.

Jamie, it's always been a matter of pick your own poison, here's West's white paper on their epoxy:
http://www.westsystem.com/ss/health-effects-from-overexposure-to-epoxy/

We have choices every day we must make, balancing the pros and cons of each. Do I cross the street at the crosswalk or since no cars are coming do I cross here? When I get home do I make my sandwich on white bread or healthier whole wheat? I’m not being argumentative, but very often empirical knowledge is an acceptable substitute for facts which can sometimes be hard to find or are completely biased. Along with that same rationale is trust in other's stated experience, which is the nature of well- managed forums such as this one.


- Beachside Hank

[Thomas S Stockton]

Corey
Weldwood plastic resin glue still has a fair amount of formaldhyde in it, I use a product from Pro glue www.pro-glue.com that you mix with water like weldwood but is low in formaldahyde.
I'm not a huge fan of epoxy they have there own toxic risks and can cause allergic reactions plus I always make a mess when using them.
For a bench top any good wood glue will be more than strong enough, sounds like maybe you need the extra open time that some of the other glues give you. If that is the case look at one of the titebond products that have an extended open time.
Pro glue also sells a really nice premixed veneering glue that I've been having great luck with.
Tom

[Howard Acheson]

DAP Plastic Resin adhesive is a urea formaldehyde adhesive so I guess you would have the same objections. UF adhesives have a somewhat longer open time than most PVA's. However, standard white PVA and Titebond Extend PVA both have about the same open time as UF adhesives. The downside is that the wood, adhesive and the workspace must be kept above 70 degrees.

You're only gluing three boards so open time should not be an issue. But on my bench (now 25 years old) I used white PVA and it worked fine. I have never had a seam open up. The white PVA gave me 12-15 minutes of working time. In my case, I had five seams that needed to be glued at the same time.

Couple of hints: First go through a couple of dry fits. Be sure to include tightening the clamps to see if your joints are closed properly. That way you will have your clamps pre-set as to jaw distance and placed in position for ready access. You don't want to be looking for things as after the adhesive is applied. Second, go to a big box and buy a Trim roller set. It comes as a package contains a couple of roller pads, a roller handle and a couple of trays. It's only a couple of bucks. You puts some adhesive into the tray and then use the roller just as would if you were painting. You can get an even coat of adhesive on in a minute or two.

Finally, a 1" thick work bench top seems a little skimpy. What issue of FWW was this in?

[Corey Filkins]

Howie

Fww 209. The top is three inches made from three 1 inch thick boards glued together. This will form one section of five where once all five have been made they will then be glued together.

http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/20552/the-workbench-of-a-lifetime


The long open time and low voc is what I am looking for.

My shop is my basement with radiant floor heating. Temperature is 72 year round in the air 74 at the floor level. Nothing beats 120 deg water running through the floor to warm your feet when working.

All,

Thanks for all of the alternatives. So many choices. I have my homework cut out for me tonight.

[Jamie Buxton]

Jamie, it's always been a matter of pick your own poison, here's West's white paper on their epoxy:
http://www.westsystem.com/ss/health-effects-from-overexposure-to-epoxy/

We have choices every day we must make, balancing the pros and cons of each.

- Beachside Hank

You're right, we do make choices. However, the cons cited about epoxy are contact dermatitis and respiratory sensitivity. Those seem to me to be manageable and transitory. After all, if worst comes to worst, you just stop using epoxy and the effects go away. But the con for formaldehyde is cancer, which seems considerably scarier. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find much info on how much formaldehyde is emitted from ureaformaldehyde glue, nor what the tolerable exposure level might be. Without much real knowledge, I've chosen to avoid UF glue.

[HANK METZ]

You're right, we do make choices. However, the cons cited about epoxy are contact dermatitis and respiratory sensitivity. Those seem to me to be manageable and transitory. After all, if worst comes to worst, you just stop using epoxy and the effects go away. But the con for formaldehyde is cancer, which seems considerably scarier. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find much info on how much formaldehyde is emitted from ureaformaldehyde glue, nor what the tolerable exposure level might be. Without much real knowledge, I've chosen to avoid UF glue.

You mentioned the inability to find a comprehensive data set on formaldehyde exposure and effects, here's a link that may aid you in that quest:
Formaldehyde and Cancer Risk

http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Risk/formaldehyde
Some interesting findings:
"When formaldehyde is present in the air at levels exceeding 0.1 ppm, some individuals may experience adverse effects such as watery eyes; burning sensations in the eyes, nose, and throat (http://www.cancer.gov/Common/PopUps/popDefinition.aspx?id=CDR0000439429&version=Patient&language=English); coughing; wheezing; nausea (http://www.cancer.gov/Common/PopUps/popDefinition.aspx?id=CDR0000390302&version=Patient&language=English); and skin irritation. Some people are very sensitive to formaldehyde, whereas others have no reaction to the same level of exposure."

These seem to be the same conditions you describe as "transitory and manageable" as regards epoxy, so a comparison of exposure levels might be in order just to satisfy curiosity if nothing else.

In closing, and a final exit from this thread, it seems good work habits and protective equipment are more than adequate to deal with the possible effects of close quarter contact. The O.P. indicated he was concerned for his children and a pet and rightfully so, perhaps this information will aid in his decision process.

- Beachside Hank

[david brum]

You might also look at Titebond Extend. According to their msds, it isn't particularly dangerous but can be an irritant at worst. Their stated open time is 25-30 minutes. Their quote:


Titebond Extend Wood Glue is a slower setting version of Titebond Original Wood Glue. It offers superior performance in a broad range of applications, including edge and face gluing. It is particularly useful in complex operations such as curved railings and other assemblies that require more time to align.

[Jamie Buxton]

You mentioned the inability to find a comprehensive data set on formaldehyde exposure and effects, here's a link that may aid you in that quest:
Formaldehyde and Cancer Risk

http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Risk/formaldehyde
Some interesting findings:
"When formaldehyde is present in the air at levels exceeding 0.1 ppm, some individuals may experience adverse effects such as watery eyes; burning sensations in the eyes, nose, and throat (http://www.cancer.gov/Common/PopUps/popDefinition.aspx?id=CDR0000439429&version=Patient&language=English); coughing; wheezing; nausea (http://www.cancer.gov/Common/PopUps/popDefinition.aspx?id=CDR0000390302&version=Patient&language=English); and skin irritation. Some people are very sensitive to formaldehyde, whereas others have no reaction to the same level of exposure."

These seem to be the same conditions you describe as "transitory and manageable" as regards epoxy, so a comparison of exposure levels might be in order just to satisfy curiosity if nothing else...

Yes, those effacts are transitory and manageable. However, you're dodging the cancer issue.

[HANK METZ]

Yes, those effacts are transitory and manageable. However, you're dodging the cancer issue.

You say! But calling your dogs tail a leg doesn't mean you've got a 5- legged dog.

You seem to be an earnest individual Jamie and I believe it (the link) does indeed answer your question if you but assimilate it, parse the information and draw your own conclusions. Perhaps it’s because what you solely, distinctively and in particular want to know just isn’t in the realm of the likely - no matter how hard one may wish for Unicorns to be real, they just aren’t.

Anyway, the O.P. has already stated his satisfaction with the scope and depth of answers to his original question and wishes to reflect on those, so this thread is now expired in my opinion, not to be revisited. Feel free to begin another with a fresh posting, perhaps others will weigh in with their own specifics too.

Respectfully.

- Beachside Hank

[Thomas L. Miller]

Corey,
I built a Benchcrafted Roubo bench using ash. I used Titebond Extend. I made multiple laminations each measuring 87" long by 4.25" wide for the top sections and large mortise tendons on the base. I had plenty of time to spread glue and get the lamination(s) into clamps. It is much easier to clean up than plastic resin glue. You can't go to Starbucks in the middle of the glue up, but there is time to get everything done without stress or having things "lock up" on you.
Good luck,
Tom

[Jeff Duncan]

Maybe consider gluing up a section or 2 at a time? There are times when a "special" glue is needed, like for instance exterior work, or complicated assemblies requiring a long open time. Most things however can be glued up with plain old yellow glue and be fine. I'd recommend bypassing all the worry and assemble in a couple sections at a time if possible. Make your life a bit simpler.

good luck,
JeffD

[Rob Lee CT]

Why not use Liquid Hide Glue? Seems to be plenty strong (close to Titebond, much stronger than polyurethane), has reasonably long open time, no creep, and no toxins. Is there a good reason to use epoxy or formaldehyde glue vs hide glue?

[Curt Harms]

Why not use Liquid Hide Glue? Seems to be plenty strong (close to Titebond, much stronger than polyurethane), has reasonably long open time, no creep, and no toxins. Is there a good reason to use epoxy or formaldehyde glue vs hide glue?
I was having the same thought as long as the bench isn't going to get wet. I have some Titebond II Extend from 2008. A couple days ago I said "Self, you should probably throw that out" but decided to try it on some scrap. Glued two narrow pieces together face to face, let 'em sit overnight, clamped one end in a vise and smacked the other end. The failure was all in the wood, no failure of the glue joint. Of couse the glue lives in a basement where temperature is pretty stable.