A Great Woodie Build Off

[Leigh Betsch]

What do you say to a Wooden plane build challenge? Anyone interested builds a plane. Any size, shape, construction, type, anything goes. No voting, no winning or loosing, only rule is you gotta make the base out of wood, and it's gotta be done in 3 months. Any interest? Maybe get some plane maker wannabes mixing in with some old pro's and see what comes up.

[Kevin Grady]

This might actually get me to try my hand at making my own plane. Now the difficult part will be to choose between two good chunks of wood I have to build one with. Either the fat chunk of cherry I have or one of the chunks of zebrawood I just picked up from an estate sale this weekend.

[Shaun Mahood]

I'm in! I've got all the books, an iron, some (hopefully) suitable wood, and I've just ordered a wooden plane for comparison. Of course, I've had most of those for months, so this challenge will get me off my butt to actually build something.

[Klaus Kretschmar]

I'm tempted to jump in, Leigh. Want to make a special woodie since a few months but never found the time. Maybe that build off would be the right motivation to do it finally...

Klaus

[Stuart Tierney]

Why would I want to do that?

(Looks on shelf, sees a full dozen under utilized planes varying from "new, at their new home" to "well used, but not recently"...)

Besides, I'm 2 weeks behind on everything... :(

If I have a chance, I'll throw one together for the heck of it. Not like they take very long to throw together. ;)

Stu.

(Only buys planes because they're quite inexpensive and has the maker on speed-dial. And has an email in his in-box with a list of 'outlet' planes. Or in other words "What the heck are we going to do with these? I know! Scrape off offending identification and flog them off cheap!")

[Chris Griggs]

I'll do it if I can get a big enough piece of wood. 8/4 is the thickest hardwood I can get around here. That's thick enough for a Krenov style plane if the blade is 1 7/8" or less right? I'd really like to build a traditional plane, but seeing as how I've never built one it may be good to start with a laminate.
Question: The krenov planes I see always use those short double irons - why is that? Any reason I couldn't use one of these (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=60009&cat=1,41182,43698&ap=1)?

[Jack Curtis]

...Question: The krenov planes I see always use those short double irons - why is that? Any reason I couldn't use one of these (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=60009&cat=1,41182,43698&ap=1)?

If you use those, I'd consider building in abutments rather than depending on a wedge.

[Chris Griggs]

If you use those, I'd consider building in abutments rather than depending on a wedge.

I was thinking I might try a laminate with abutments like this (http://inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/BuildingAJackPlane.html). I think the HNT Gordon planes are made this way too. Out of curiosity why for a single iron plane would this be necessary over a pin? Do abutments support the blade bettter?

[Leigh Betsch]

I'm not sure if I'll use one of the irons that I made or go with a Lee Valley one. I made a bunch of short irons for woodies but I used a Lee Valley iron on my Anarchy plane, and it was a lot easier since it was already flat. I like the Gordon abutment idea. But I also like the plane I made using a frog I robbed from a transitional plane.
You can always do a glue up if you don't have thick enough wood stock. I'm leaning this way, depending on how my dwindling supply of mesquite looks when I get into it.

[David Weaver]

If I can find any suitable wood large enough to do a one-piece smoother, maybe. But laziness and desire to finish other projects will probably win out. I think building a one-piece coffin smoother would probably be a good skill builder for most of us - me included.

Not a fan of laminated planes, but if I needed to build 3 in a day to do work, I probably would be.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Chris -

I think the "Krenov" style planes usually use shorter blades because that's what Krenov used. His opinion, at least from his books, was that he preferred the low slung style, particularly because it it allowed a variety of grips in different situations, whereas a traditional style plane sort of forced you into a couple of simple grips. I'm not sure there's anything wrong with the grips a traditional plane presents, but if being able to hold the plane in a variety of different ways is important to you, a shorter iron and a low slung body makes it easier to get there. Certainly, if for whatever reason you want the "low slung" style Krenov appeared to like, a longer iron could dig into your hand in certain grips.

Does anyone sell new tapered irons, or is the best source for those either making/tapering yourself or picking up a used vintage iron?

[David Weaver]

I would buy a vintage iron if you want a tapered iron. I think the most I've ever spent on one was $15, and I know i've gotten 3 for $10 on ebay before.

Having built a straight and short infill with a long iron, I agree on why the krenov irons are short - they'd be in the web of your hand on a lot of planes, and I guess he decided on comfort over longevity.

It might be nice to build the kind of smoother george mentioned a while ago - a one-piece coffin smoother with a metal sole in the front.

Who here really needs more smoothers, though?

[Jerome Hanby]

How about a visual glossary to kick things off. Define things like "abutments" in the context of plane making (with pictures of course).

[Stuart Tierney]

Question: The krenov planes I see always use those short double irons - why is that? Any reason I couldn't use one of these (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=60009&cat=1,41182,43698&ap=1)?

They're too expensive?

If you're willing to take a blade with a slot in it (but no chip breaker) let me know and I'll work out a deal. Offer open to all, won't be advertised openly (by ANYONE) though, since it'll be part of this here plane making event.

Stu.

(Who's got a line on some rather economical, very sweet plane blades that, for some unbeknown reason are not given a second look. Dave, they're 'those' blades...)

[Mike Holbrook]

I am finishing up four woodies. Mine are made from old Steve Knight designs. I like Steve's designs better as they are made from two pieces of easier to find 8/4 lumber. Here are two made from 8/4 Purple Heart. Chris these planes do not use any kind of bar or chip breaker.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/16891057@N05/6753523005/lightbox/

I think I need to talk to Stu, my problem is the blades I have are short for the bodies, making it difficult to make small enough wedges.

Here is the basic design for a Jointer. The long thin area is for a tote. One simply glues two boards with the following relief together. The black line indicates the area for the wedge, which is a little deeper in the wood.:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/16891057@N05/6062441322/in/photostream/lightbox/

These planes use a thick 1/4, 3/16 single blade with a wooden wedge, no chip breaker, kinda like many Japanese planes.

[Sam Takeuchi]

Stu, blue steel 2.2mm blade?

[David Weaver]

(Who's got a line on some rather economical, very sweet plane blades that, for some unbeknown reason are not given a second look. Dave, they're 'those' blades...)

gahh! I saw those about a month after I hand cut and filed an iron out of O1. It took me about 3 hours or so to cut the iron, drill and file the slot, flatten it, harden/temper it and then clean it up.

And I checked to see if you had the tsune irons ready yet when I did that....and then they popped up not more than a month later.

I am on the fence and may yet order one (edit...or did order one just now. so much for self control). I do love blue steel and white steel in chisels and planes.

What a waste of 3 hours.

[Stuart Tierney]

Stu, blue steel 2.2mm blade?


Maybe... ;)

Like I said, I don't want to push them but I do want to get them out there. If it'll provoke folks to build some woody planes in the process, I'm all for that.


Me, I've got O1 steel in various widths I use normally, but even that stuff looks pretty sad when compared to what I can get now. Oh well, I still have the steel and will still be making blades for stuff I'm sure.

Stu.

[Bob Glenn]

I'm in. Currently have two in progress. Glued up a 28 inch long blank for a jointer last night and have a smoother blank ready for milling. If it warms a bit this afternoon, I'll go out and cut the cheeks in both. I have a couple 1/4 inch by 2 inch blades of A2 steel ready to go. Just honed two days ago. The first one I did went in the first plane I made out of a piece of cherry I pulled out of the fire wood pile.

[steven c newman]

Already have four wooden planes on hand, including a 1/2" wide Chisel Plane. The other three are types of profile planes, one even uses a FILE to make a profile.223709223710223711 Do you mean make MORE of these?

[Zahid Naqvi]

I'll do it. After having made several Krenovian planes I want to incorporate a few improvements (incorporate some Steve Knight elements and get rid of the cross pin and replace it with a traditional wedge), a deadline attached to a project does wonders for me.

[Trevor Walsh]

I have to finish reading the thread, but I'm in whole horse.

[george wilson]

I'm too busy with other demands to enter this,unless the spirit really moves me. I have things my wife needs done for our business,and another job I need to finish. And,I'm only good for a limited number of hours these days. Then,I can sit down at the computer for a while and post things.

[john brenton]

Good! If George is out then maaaaaaaaaaybe I'm in! Haha. I'd hate to post one of my homemade planes that look like something Merv Warner picked up at a Polish swap meet and have to see one of George's gorgeous works of art right below it! Haha.


I'm too busy with other demands to enter this,unless the spirit really moves me. I have things my wife needs done for our business,and another job I need to finish. And,I'm only good for a limited number of hours these days. Then,I can sit down at the computer for a while and post things.

[Shaun Mahood]

John, I promise to make you look good - join in!

[Leigh Betsch]

I'll use one of the irons that I made or go with a Lee Valley one.
And then Stu goes and tosses out a hook baited with blue steel. PM coming Stu.
Now where do I get info on making a Japanese plane.......

[David Weaver]

Let's see if we can convince those guys at Tsunesaburo to make a couple of those in the ballpark of 3/16ths and 1/4" thick with no slot....anyone? anyone? They would be lovely infill plane single irons, and woodies.

They're using either mild steel or iron as the backing, so it's not like they should be hard to sharpen.

[Leigh Betsch]

I just checked Stu's web site and now see what he's getting at with the 2.2mm blue steel. If they fit a transitional frog we might have a winner here!
But Dave you're right 3/16 - 1/4" thick no slot iron could be just what I need..............

[Jack Curtis]

I was thinking I might try a laminate with abutments like this (http://inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/BuildingAJackPlane.html). I think the HNT Gordon planes are made this way too. Out of curiosity why for a single iron plane would this be necessary over a pin? Do abutments support the blade bettter?

You could do a lot worse than follow Derek and/or Terry. All of the ancient coffin smoothers I have include both the blade and wedge in the abutments, too. I like the way Derek has cut this from the center section of the laminate.

The LV single iron is big, probably very heavy, and needs support to stay in place.

[andy brumenschenkel]

I am definitely in. I've been using my homemade smoother-esque plane recently on a top and i had forgot how much I like that plane. I would like either a #6 size plane for flattening table tops or a rabbit plane. Anyone have som pics of either of these 2 sstyles they've made.

[Pat Barry]

Would you accept a woodie rabbet plane into this build off? If so, that's what I would build. I need one, and this would be challenging enough for me to begin with.

[Federico Mena Quintero]

Yes yes yes! I have a Hock blade for a Krenov jack, and a Two Cherries one for a rabbet plane. This is the perfect excuse to get the damn things done.

[john davey]

I am in. Not to be graded as this will be my first
Build. This has been on my list for a long time so thanks to the op for kicking us in the tukasas to get this going. :).

[Bob Glenn]

I am definitely in. I've been using my homemade smoother-esque plane recently on a top and i had forgot how much I like that plane. I would like either a #6 size plane for flattening table tops or a rabbit plane. Anyone have som pics of either of these 2 sstyles they've made.

I'll show you mine if you'll show me yours. Lets see that smoother!

[Leigh Betsch]

Would you accept a woodie rabbet plane into this build off?
Yes of course, anything goes! I setting in my shop trying to get some inspiration right now. I really want a long jointer, or a molding plane, I have enough smoothers but my wood is screaming at me to make a mesquite smoother.

[Leigh Betsch]

In case someone else needs some inspiration. A couple of really nice to use planes in the mix, also a couple of transitionsal that I like to use real well. Some mesquite, lignum vitae, bacoti, and some blue gum and java plum from a creeker in Hawaii.

[Chris Vandiver]

Sounds like great fun, I'm all in.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I'm in, I have the blades, arrived this week, I just need to find some suitable wood...

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Leigh - did you make the plough? Share more about that!

[Lowell Smith]

No rules? What If...
Somebody enters something like this?:D
223773

[john davey]

If they get fine shavings out of it.... Winner winner chicken dinner :)




No rules? What If...
Somebody enters something like this?:D
223773

[Leigh Betsch]

Joshua, no I didn't make the plough plane. It's an old one I bought from a Creeker.
Lowell, I think if someone can get a Spruce Goose built in 3 months they should get extra credit!

[Shaun Mahood]

Joshua, no I didn't make the plough plane.

I know what I want you to make in the next 3 months...

[Leigh Betsch]

You are right a plough plane would take me three months to make! I did buy it so I could figure out how they work and make one someday, I'm a long way from there. But I do have three old irons........

[Sean Richards]

Had a quick rummage through the parts drawer and came up with a few choices for irons

2" I. Sorby tapered iron with a Robt. Sorby cap iron
2 1/4" Marples tapered double iron
2 1/4" Mathieson crescent moon skewed tapered double iron - unused out of a worm-eaten badger plane
2 1/4" Kongsberg (Norway) tapered double iron
1 3/4" EA. Berg tapered double iron - looks like it was wider to start with

The wood part of things is not quite so good - the only wood I could scare up that is large enough for a traditional style woodie is some old Australian hardwood bridge beams - not really that excited about using it for plane making. If I can find something a bit more suitable I might be in.

[Rob Lee]

In.... 'cause David dared me in another thread.

It will be quite different though....and made of ebony.

Cheers -

Rob
(who always has something up his sleeve....)

[David Weaver]

Excellent!

[Shaun Mahood]

Rob, I bet if you can finish it by the time you make it to Edmonton you could convince some sucker to buy it.

[Bob Strawn]

Right when I am getting together the stuff to make my first infill you tempt me to make another woodie! There is no way I can stay away from a tool making epidemic, so count me in!

Bob

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Is there an "official" start and/or end date? Against my better judgement I may have to make a little something just because I go nuts working on these bench parts. My brain isn't used to the size of those things. Although I really should finish this bowsaw.

i'm looking through the parts pile, and all I've got for blades that aren't being used is a Stanley SW block plane blade (that never held an edge very well) and a Goodall blade and chipbreaker from an old #7. I might need to order a new blade. Of course, I'll need to add some things to that order to justify paying shipping costs . . .

and down the slope again . . .

[Leigh Betsch]

Is there an "official" start and/or end date? .


Ready, Set, Go............May 15, 2012 or there about

[Leigh Betsch]

[QUOTE=Rob Lee;1874519]It will be quite different though....and made of ebony./QUOTE]


Ebony, that will put those new floats to the test!

[george wilson]

So,WHO is going to judge these planes?

[Leigh Betsch]

Certainly not me! My original post said no voting, no winners or losers. But if the consensus is that people want to pick the best of the best I can think of nobody better that Mr. George Wilson himself!!!

[Shaun Mahood]

One vote for George judging!

[george wilson]

We need to set up categories under which these planes would be judged. Things like functionality or ergonomics,aesthetic appeal, things like that.

Now all of you have something to contribute about judging categories,so we can make a list. We might also designate first,second and third place winners?

Also,the time limit of when these projects must be finished.

I do think that the judge should not submit an entry into this "competition"(is this a competition?)

All of you should submit whether there should be any judging at all,as Leigh's original post mentioned.

Disadvantage of judging: Hurt feelings?

Advantage of judging: It would encourage entrants to think harder about design and functionality, and do their best.(which I think is a good thing).

Any thoughts on these?

[Leigh Betsch]

I'm open for a judged competition if others are. Maybe the categories should be: Style, Craftsmanship, Cut (if it don't cut it don't count!).
Maybe a member poll? to narrow the field down to say three? (that way George won't be responsible for ticking us all off!). Send the three to George for final evaluation. He can give them the finial Style and Craftsmanship look over, give them the cut test and declare the best of the best! But the international shipping cost might be a killer,
(If I win beers at my house.)

[Shaun Mahood]

I'm up for contributing towards shipping the winners or some sort of prize, as long as you will ship me a beer if you win Leigh.

[Zahid Naqvi]

Let's just build something we can use, competition might scare off some folks. I really don't care either way, I just need a motivational kick in my behind to find a home for the two blades that have been sitting on a shelf for the last couple years.

[Chris Griggs]

Let's just build something we can use, competition might scare off some folks. I really don't care either way, I just need a motivational kick in my behind to find a home for the two blades that have been sitting on a shelf for the last couple years.

I agree. I think the original spirit of this things was "hey, let's all try this together", and I think that's why so many people got on board. In addition to what Zahid said, competition just complicates things. I think the goal here should be to provide inspiration and a resource for anyone who is considering building there own plane(s). I envision the whatever thread the planes end up in will be placed in the FAQs section. Nothing wrong with a competition, but perhaps it would be better as a separate thing later on down the road.

Anyway, I don't think I'm going to end up taking part at the moment anyway, so feel free to ignore my opinion. Life has me with too many irons in the fire at the moment for me put the kind time and effort into doing this thing to do the level of quality I would like. I'll likely wait and just tack a plane onto the thread later on, rather than do it half-a**ed.

[David Weaver]

Give people the option to have their plane judged or not.

I would LOVE to have a contest for coffin smoothers - one piece, but because I think they're somewhat hard to build (and get as good of a plane as you can buy) if you're using only hand tools and removing the waste in them by hand.

[andy brumenschenkel]

I'll show you mine if you'll show me yours. Lets see that smoother!

Heres my smoother-esque plane made from paduak and maple, may not be pretty but my best performer.
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q64/crosley623/713f9d6f.jpg

[Leigh Betsch]

Ok so I let the competition idea incubate for a day. Doesn't look like there is a lot of excitement for a competition so lets go back to the original idea. Make'em, use'em and post a pic, no winners no losers.
George, jump in and add some constructive pointers if you see a opening!

[Leigh Betsch]

Hey Andy that was quick! I got a start on mine too, but I don't think I'll get back to it fro a few days.

[Shaun Mahood]

I don't know about anyone else, but I would love it if some others would do a blog on here about the process. I'm going to try and do one for my build, but I won't guarantee it will turn out to be pretty.

[Ryan Baker]

I'm really tempted to jump in on this too, but I seriously doubt I will have the time to do it in the next few months. I'll have to go dig around a bit this weekend and see what I can scare up in terms of supplies.

[Derek Cohen]

Well, someone's got to represent Australia, so I guess I'm it.

Actually, I have some handle maker's rasps from Liogier to test, and this will be an incentive to get going ... just got to get a bench to work on ...

Not sure I could run to Ebony, Rob. :) I am really looking forward to that one.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Bob Glenn]

Nice, I currently have one in progress. I'll post a picture when it's done.

[Rob Lee]

(snip)

Not sure I could run to Ebony, Rob. :) (snip)

Well - you now know it's not gonna be a jointer.....!

:)

Cheers -

Rob

[Chris Griggs]

Well - you now know it's not gonna be a jointer.....!

:)

Cheers -

Rob

Hey Rob, just so we're clear. You are not aloud to use Veritas designers to help you with this one!

[Zach Dillinger]

I'll see what I can put together. I've been wanting to make myself a plow for a while now...

EDIT: I'm in for a judged competition as well. I would be honored to have George Wilson judge my work, if he agrees to take on the role.

[Rob Lee]

Hey Rob, just so we're clear. You are not aloud to use Veritas designers to help you with this one!

Chris -

No worries there....

I am going to use a Veritas product though.... I'd mention which one, but it's not available for y'all yet.... :)

:)

Cheers -

Rob

[andy brumenschenkel]

Hey Andy that was quick! I got a start on mine too, but I don't think I'll get back to it fro a few days.

Definately not a new plane for the build, someone asked for a pic of my smoother so I posted it. I'm just looking for a design of a #6 sized jack or a rabbet.

[george wilson]

If it was EXACTLY the right length,could it be a jack rabbet??

[David Weaver]

I am going to use a Veritas product though....

The Veritas 3D CNC Pushbutton hands-free "while - u - wait" Plane maker? late 18th century early 19th century design Edition?

Sweet.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Nah, I think David's got it wrong - it's a new Veritas "transitional" hardware kit - like a stanley #26, but with a norris adjuster, set screws to lock in lateral adjustment, and a fully adjustable frog and thick A2 blade. For a small upgrade, available in the same nickel as the NX60 block plane!

just add your own wood!

[Jim Neeley]

the veritas 3d cnc pushbutton hands-free "while - u - wait" plane maker? Late 18th century early 19th century design edition?

Sweet.

lmsao... :)

[john davey]

Actually I would love to see what they came up with. Darned near everything Veritas is Amazing so let them have at it. :).


Hey Rob, just so we're clear. You are not aloud to use Veritas designers to help you with this one!

[Chris Griggs]

Nah, I think David's got it wrong - it's a new Veritas "transitional" hardware kit - like a stanley #26, but with a norris adjuster, set screws to lock in lateral adjustment, and a fully adjustable frog and thick A2 blade. For a small upgrade, available in the same nickel as the NX60 block plane!

just add your own wood!

I would by this in a heartbeat and make a foreplane and then maybe a 24-30" jointer. (minus the nickel upgrade). Seriously, transitional hardware kits would be an awesome idea.

[Leigh Betsch]

Ya mean like this?

[Chris Griggs]

Ya mean like this?

Yes! Exactly like that... Pretty sweet work Leigh!

[James Taglienti]

Ya mean like this?

Nice! Is that high angle?

[Zahid Naqvi]

Took the first steps today. This is going to be a blend of techniques used by Norse Woodsmith and Derek Cohen. A jack, but with a very tight mouth so that it can double as a longer smoother. Maple and Walnut, I realize Walnut is probably not the best choice but I think we make too much of the hardness of wood used in planes.

224216

[george wilson]

The maple will probably minimize wear on the walnut cheeks. I mentioned walnut as a possible plane wood. But,there are hard examples of walnut,and much harder specimens. I meant the hard ones. I have a bunch of black walnut cut in 1941 that is extremely hard. It is the same age I am. It was cut on the farm across the street from where I used to live. The farmer sawed wood for a hobby. He has some great pieces of wood in his barn!!

[Matthew N. Masail]

Took the first steps today. This is going to be a blend of techniques used by Norse Woodsmith and Derek Cohen. A jack, but with a very tight mouth so that it can double as a longer smoother. Maple and Walnut, I realize Walnut is probably not the best choice but I think we make too much of the hardness of wood used in planes.

224216

I made prototype out of pine and it works just fine. probablywon't be used by the next generation though.

[Leigh Betsch]

Nice! Is that high angle?

Yes, The frog is a regular 45 degree from a Stanley Transitional, I mounted it at 10 degrees to give the 55 degree high angle IIRC.

I use a 1/2" steel cross pin, tap 1/4 x 20 to anchor the frog.

[Zach Dillinger]

Here's my progress. This is the result of about 5 hours of layout and benchwork yesterday. All hand tools, of course. I split out the body from a larger chunk of walnut that ended up being nearly quartersawn. Very nice wood to work. I'm making a copy of a possibly-18th century plow that is in my collection, although mine is going to be walnut rather than beech and has square arms rather than semi-circular. There will be one other design change... but I'm not quite ready to reveal that yet!

The first pic is the results of the day's work. Having my bench this cluttered drives me nuts!

224236224237224238224239224240

[Chris Griggs]

Here's my progress. This is the result of about 5 hours of layout and benchwork yesterday. All hand tools, of course. I split out the body from a larger chunk of walnut that ended up being nearly quartersawn. Very nice wood to work. I'm making a copy of a possibly-18th century plow that is in my collection, although mine is going to be walnut rather than beech and has square arms rather than semi-circular. There will be one other design change... but I'm not quite ready to reveal that yet!

The first pic is the results of the day's work. Having my bench this cluttered drives me nuts!

224236224237224238224239224240


Zach, I cannot wait to see the final product. You've got so true grit building a plow for this "event". Very cool! So I take it all the mortising was done with chisels? Can you comment on the process you used for forming the bed?

[Zach Dillinger]

Chris,

Thanks! I've always wanted to make a plow for myself, and this event gives the kick in the tail to get it done. The arm mortises are 3/4" square and were first drilled out with a 1/2" center bit, working from both sides. This gave a place for the chips to go, making the final cleanup much, much easier. The same process was used for the depth stop mortise and the bed, although I used a long nose auger to drill out for the bed. I'm not done paring the bed perfectly flat yet, but I won't do that until I'm ready to fit the wedge, since the iron will only really contact the bed at the top and then on the skate. Two points of contact and tension from the wedge will make a very nice fit. This is the case on several of the old plows that I have, so I'm copying it.

I hope it turns out!

[Chris Griggs]

Thanks for the info Zach. I had been wondering how well one can clear out waste for a plane bed with an auger bit. Good luck and keep posting...

[Klaus Kretschmar]

OK, Leigh, need to have the deadline to know if I can jump in. Please give a fix date:D.

Klaus

[george wilson]

But,Klaus,how long will it take for your broken wrist to heal?

[Klaus Kretschmar]

Hi George,

2 days ago I got rid of the $%§/& cast! Now I'm hoping that the damn hurt will go away! But as I think that will be soon so it will be possible to me to start with woodworking again in about 2 weeks... hopefully!!!

Cheers
Klaus

[John Coloccia]

I would love in on this. I really want to make a nice, palm sized carving plane, but I don't know where to start. Could someone recommend a decent tutorial?

[Klaus Kretschmar]

I would love in on this. I really want to make a nice, palm sized carving plane, but I don't know where to start. Could someone recommend a decent tutorial?

Hi John,

there are a few fellows out there that don't need a tutorial at all. You belong to those! I'd say that you could give a tutorial... and probably a very good one!

Klaus

[John Coloccia]

Hi John,

there are a few fellows out there that don't need a tutorial at all. You belong to those! I'd say that you could give a tutorial... and probably a very good one!

Klaus

I'm reminded of that scene in the Godfather where Michael Corleone kills Solazzo...

"You think too much of me, kid".

LOL :D

[Jack Curtis]

I would love in on this. I really want to make a nice, palm sized carving plane, but I don't know where to start. Could someone recommend a decent tutorial?

Start with the blade, all else easily follows.

[Klaus Kretschmar]

I'm reminded of that scene in the Godfather where Michael Corleone kills Solazzo...

"You think too much of me, kid".

LOL :D

You know that I'm right! What you've published is really impressing. So I KNOW that you are laughing about how to do a wooden plane!

Klaus

[John Coloccia]

You know that I'm right! What you've published is really impressing. So I KNOW that you are laughing about how to do a wooden plane!

Klaus

That's quite a compliment coming from you, Klaus. Guys like you and George are 10 times the craftsman I will ever be. Best wishes on a speedy recovery.

OK, OK....as Jack says, I will just procure a blade and just have at it.

[Leigh Betsch]

OK, Leigh, need to have the deadline to know if I can jump in. Please give a fix date:D.

Klaus
May 15, 2012. 3 months from when people started to get moving. Lots of time to find an open weekend. You might not want to wait too long, incase someone slaps down a challenge to build a dovetail saw!!! ???

[Klaus Kretschmar]

I'm in Leigh!

Regardless the sawhandles I've to make I'd like to jump in!

Klaus

[Zahid Naqvi]

If everyone can post their updates (if motivated enough, the build steps) and eventually finished products within this thread I will stick this in the FAQs sticky.

[Zach Dillinger]

Is there a prize for the first completed plane? Mine isn't quite done yet, but I suspect it will be done within the week. Here are pics of today's progress. Most of the woodworking is done (just need to mold the fence) then I have to do some metal working (cutting and fitting the skate, riveting the arms to the fence, etc.). Then finishing / polishing and it will be a very nice plane to use.

224495224496224497224498

[Leigh Betsch]

Looks like you are ahead of the pack. You are making you own prize!

[Trevor Walsh]

In an attempt to force me to complete this project on time I'm kicking it off here.

Though I have a bunch of planemaking projects in progress at the moment there is one in particular I'm interested to make, which is a mahogany iron soled mitre plane. Similar to the plane in the photo's I've attached, which comes from one of the online tool auction sites. I have some really old chunks of mahogany that I've wanted to do something plane related with for a while, any idea how to correctly ID the species? The planes will be designed around a 1" snecked iron. I've got to start on the drawings and get cracking on these, I'd like to make at least three.

[Zach Dillinger]

You are making you own prize!

Indeed. Shaping up nicely!

[Shaun Mahood]

You know, you guys are making this look way too easy. My first ever wooden plane should be coming in the mail this week so I have a model, and I thought I would post some books (with notes) that I know of for wooden plane making for everyone else who is in over their head with me. If anyone has any other really good resources or comments, please join in! These are all from the perspective of a beginner who has spent almost as much on books as tools, so please correct me if I am wrong about anything.

"Woodworker's Guide to Handplanes" by Scott Wynn
I would buy this book just for the drawings and pictures, even if the information was all wrong. This is a gorgeous book, has tons of information about wooden planes and was first published in 2010. I can't comment on the accuracy of the information, but it is very well written and enjoyable to read, over 300 pages long with about 60 pages on plane setup covering metal, wood, Chinese and Japanese planes and another 60 on making and modifying planes. It has planes dimensioned drawings for a bunch of different sizes and types of wooden planes, totes, wedges, and how to fit a movable sole plate among other things. Covers making traditional western body planes but with a cross pin and bearing plate instead of tapered abutments, Japanese planes, chibi-kanna, hollowing, rounding and spoonbottom planes. Not all the way through reading it but it has been an amazing read so far, very deeply thought out and exceptionally well written.

"Making and Mastering Wood Planes" by David Finck
This seems like a pretty good book for making Krenov style planes (foreword by James Krenov, so no real surprise there). I have the 2nd printing, revised edition 2009 and there is at least one page missing that had information I really wanted and had to find elsewhere (aim for a newer edition if it exists). Only really covers Krenov style planes and is probably a good place to start, but the minute I realized I might be able to make a one piece plane in a traditional style I stopped wanting to make these. This was the first book on plane making I bought, but it would also be the only one of the four that I would consider parting with. This may be more of a reflection on my tastes than the book, though, so take this bit with a grain of salt as I still devoured it on my first reading.

"Wooden Planes and How to Make Them" by David G. Perch and Robert S. Lee
Quick and to the point, covers how to make a traditional smoother in 14 pages and doesn't slow down, has 4 additional methods to make a smoother as well. I count over 20 different types of plane construction covered in 182 pages, including 5 different cooper's planes. Not a whole lot of extras in this one, doesn't really hold your hand or go into a whole lot of extra detail. It seems like a great book to me, but I didn't feel ready to tackle any of the planes in here without some other references.

"Making Traditional Wooden Planes" by John M. Whelan
This seems to go into a lot more detail on the individual planes than the Perch and Lee book, and it seems to me kind of like an amateur follow up of that book. In his intro, he states
"My first plane (as you will learn later) was a disappointment, although I had the fine instructions available in the work by Perch and Lee (1981). It appeared that a description by an amateur, rather than a professional woodworker, might be useful. Although I had made a dozen or so planes before (mostly historical replicas), this book began by making all of the planes described herein, keeping a record of difficulties encountered and how they were overcome. No amount of close study of this text, however, will teach you how to make a working plane. You must make one."
This section is a very good description of the feel of the rest of the book, and it made plane making (even a plow plane) seem much more approachable and understandable to me.


My general impressions:
- If you want to make a Krenov smoother, buy the Finck book and get to work.
- If you really know what you're doing, Perch and Lee will probably have everything you need.
- If Perch and Lee are too smart for you, buy Whelan and go to town. I'm really glad I have the Perch and Lee book too, as they really complement each other.
- Buy the Wynn book, just to have it. It is a beautiful, very deeply thought out, well written book about wooden hand planes that was published less than 2 years ago. This book is a work of art.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Is there a prize for the first completed plane? Mine isn't quite done yet, but I suspect it will be done within the week. Here are pics of today's progress. Most of the woodworking is done (just need to mold the fence) then I have to do some metal working (cutting and fitting the skate, riveting the arms to the fence, etc.). Then finishing / polishing and it will be a very nice plane to use.

224495224496224497224498


There might be a prize once we see a shaving !

it looks really nice

[Bob Strawn]

I have put together a spill plane loosely based on Darrell LaRu's walk through (http://www.wkfinetools.com/tMaking/art/spill_Plane/Spill_Plane1.asp). My plane works, but it needs to be cleaned up, oiled where appropriate, shellacked where appropriate and waxed where appropriate. Since the plane stays still and the wood moves, I have been able to clamp the plane down and together, and test it before it was glued up. The shavings are great! I am shaving down wood just to make shavings! I love my new spill plane! I made it to have a duel purpose. It will clean up the edges on cedar picket for when I am making planters. At the same time it makes lovely cedar spills. I took a handful of them in to show my wife and she claimed them as hers!

I made an odd spill plane of my own design (http://toolmakingart.com/2009/08/14/making-a-spill-rabbet-plane/) a while back, but it was more of an experiment and kind of a cute failure.

Here is the new spill plane, parts of it still need to be polished, oiled, shellacked and waxed.

http://toolmakingart.com/images/Spill Plane/Spill Plane.jpg

And just to make the post longer, here are a few spills and the block used to make it.

http://toolmakingart.com/images/Spill Plane/Spill.jpg

Bob

[Ryan Baker]

Nice spills!

[Matthew N. Masail]

very nice .....

[Trevor Walsh]

Here is the rough stock for the iron shod miter. Ground 1018 flat and cuban mahogany. I have to do some thinking, I don't have a blade for this plane, and the place I'm sourcing some from may not be able to get me one in time. It might be bladeless on the due date. :(

Anyways, pictures of the sole/mouth design and stock below.

[Chris Vandiver]

Are you really planning on joining the plane together along it's length(like it shows in the sketch)? It would be MUCH stronger(with this type of constructon)to have the sides go full length.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

If I follow Trevor correctly, that plan is just for the steel piece that serves as the sole?

[David Weaver]

I think where the mouth meets, I might be more inclined to do a finger joint / cope and stick / mortise and tenon type of thing.

But I've never done it. It's something that may make a joint less vulnerable to shearing, and you could do it with a saw kerf from something with a thin blade.

I know i've seen wayne anderson and others use that type of joint on iron infill miter planes.

[Trevor Walsh]

Chris, Joshua is right the sketches are just for the geometry of the steel sole. I had thought through the design so far and based on my starting photos in the first post I neglected to think about how it would appear so someone on the outside.

David, Several planemakers do use the T&G mouth connection, I've seen it in waynee anderson's, Raney Nelson's, historic examples etc. But the detail in the side view for the prototype I pictured does have this angular joint, it will be fairly faithful to this example. After seeing this joint I think it will be easier to get a clean fit than with a T&G, if you think about it the T&G has 10 mating planes and this joint has only 4. I went with thinner material for the sole 3/32" so it may be a bit challenging to do the angular joint, and damn near impossible without some fancy mill setup to cut a T&G in stock that thin.

I'm hoping to make the fixture I want to mill out the bedding angle this week, maybe today I can get some progress on the body.

[David Weaver]

I'm thinking since it's 1018 that you might be able to cut it with a razor saw or something like that with a lot of the rake taken off the teeth. Certainly not something to be done with a hardware store hacksaw blade.

I do think filing the angles will be easier, though, I agree, and should be fine as long as the wood is top shelf in terms of grain orientation.

[Trevor Walsh]

I've got some really good sweedish hacksaw blades and an awesome cast aluminum high tension hacksaw. I usually use it for cutting up 1/8" 1095 plate and assorted O1 and W1 round and bar stock. It will breeze through the 1018. I agree some of the worst blades I've ever used have been the Buck Bros. and HF. One swipe and half the teeth are stripped off.

Layout on the milling fixture is finished. I think I will groove it to fit the flat stock securely, that way orienting the sole stock to the mill will be easy.

[Chris Griggs]

Hey Trevor. Are you gonna blog about this or post a detailed thread on the build? I'm not really understanding the conversation at the moment, and would love to see more details of the steps involved and the actual construction as you go through the build.

[David Weaver]

I've got some really good sweedish hacksaw blades and an awesome cast aluminum high tension hacksaw. I usually use it for cutting up 1/8" 1095 plate and assorted O1 and W1 round and bar stock. It will breeze through the 1018. I agree some of the worst blades I've ever used have been the Buck Bros. and HF. One swipe and half the teeth are stripped off.

Layout on the milling fixture is finished. I think I will groove it to fit the flat stock securely, that way orienting the sole stock to the mill will be easy.

What tooth count are the blades, assuming they are straight back with some set, and not wavy like lenox blades? If they are in the 18-20tpi range and without the wave, I'd like to know what brand they are. I ping teeth off of 18tpi lenox HSS blades on 3/32nd and 1/8th stuff pretty quickly, but they cut faster and don't have the wavy toothline, so I tolerate it. If there was a finer tooth count straight blade, I'd probably buy it.

If you've got access to a mill, you're miles ahead of me. I'm resisting the urge to buy one under the assumption that after 7 or 8 metal planes (in the middle of #4 right now) i will have had enough.

[Chris Griggs]

Hey folks. I just ran across this nice 10 part series of videos (http://www.youtube.com/user/Sumokun/videos)where this guy goes through the process of making a jack plane. He uses a lamination method to make a traditional looking English jack plane with abutments (no cross pin) - its a similar construction style to Dereks jack plane tutorial.

In addition to showing a pretty simple method to make what seems to be a very nice wood plane, what makes the video cooler is that the dude has a very minimal setup - wobbly bench, in expensive vise, some pretty standard Japanese saws, a chisel, and low angle block plane and a flat Iwasaki file.

The videos probably won't be anything special to folks who have built planes before, but to plane making ignoramuses like myself its a pretty cool tutorial.

[David Weaver]

Has anyone else here other than george taken a crack at cutting out one of those planes from a piece of solid stock? I have a book describing the layout process, which is probably more important than anything else for function. It's kind of disheartening that everyone wants to glue two pieces of wood together.

I'm still on the fence about whether or not I want to jump in on this, mostly because I got stuck in the mud trying to make my first two coffin smoothers aesthetically acceptable, and because I don't have a specific example to copy on hand (i have coffin smoothers, just not one old enough and nice enough that I'd want to copy it dead on).

Plus I'd have to make the plane in cherry, or cocobolo, and I'm not going to waste my dry QS cocobolo on a "maybe" shot.

[Chris Griggs]

Has anyone else here other than george taken a crack at cutting out one of those planes from a piece of solid stock? I have a book describing the layout process, which is probably more important than anything else for function. It's kind of disheartening that everyone wants to glue two pieces of wood together.


I thought you had???

My guess would be that getting the right stock is holding people back (and time and skill/difficulty) - getting stock is definitely one of the reasons why laminates interest me. Funny enough, when Leigh first posted this I really wanted to do a traditional English jack or coffin smoother from a solid piece of wood. Then I decided not to "enter" because of time, and inability to get stock (although I do have a small and pathetic semi functional "entry" that I will post later).

Anyway,this thread has prompted me to a lot of online research into plane making and now I'm thinking I'd prefer a low slung krenov plan anyway when/if I dive whole heartily into plane making. Typically, I am drawn to traditional methods of doing things, but there is a perceived ergonomic appeal of krenov planes for me and a growing aesthetic appeal as well (which is odd because when it comes to saw handles I much prefer the looks of the old english handles)

[Zach Dillinger]

Has anyone else here other than george taken a crack at cutting out one of those planes from a piece of solid stock? I have a book describing the layout process, which is probably more important than anything else for function. It's kind of disheartening that everyone wants to glue two pieces of wood together.

I'm still on the fence about whether or not I want to jump in on this, mostly because I got stuck in the mud trying to make my first two coffin smoothers aesthetically acceptable, and because I don't have a specific example to copy on hand (i have coffin smoothers, just not one old enough and nice enough that I'd want to copy it dead on).

Plus I'd have to make the plane in cherry, or cocobolo, and I'm not going to waste my dry QS cocobolo on a "maybe" shot.


I have, several times. In addition to many early, total failures, I've made a wooden miter plane, in the traditional manner, out of beech. Also working on a 34" hard maple jointer plane (not done, its a project that is being finished in spurts). My biggest problem has always been the mouth opening. I usually mung them up pretty hard and have to patch the sole. I haven't patched the miter plane (works incredibly well even with a giant mouth) and it is quite ragged, almost to the point that I'm ashamed of it. But it works great.

Layout, in my opinion, is the easy part. Its cutting to the lines consistently through 3 or 4" of hard maple, or beech, thats tough.

I don't like the laminated plane style. I'd rather try something the hard, traditional way and fail, or minimally succeed, i.e. it works but looks terrible, and learn from it than do something the non-traditional way. My first planes were terrible (I literally burned them in a Bonfire of the Plane-ities), but I've learned each time. The plow I'm working on has actually been easier than the miter plane, although I suspect thats because I had the plow to copy, but no miter plane to reference.

As for stock availability, I've always been lucky, which helps me maintain my attitude about traditional planes. I got what is probably a plane-making lifetime supply (90bf) of 12/4 beech from a local sawmill (for free... gloat) about 3 years ago. Its finally getting dry enough to use. That, and I've got Johnson's Lumber about 6 blocks from my house. They have incredible supplies of any wood you can think of, in pretty much any thickness. Need 12/4 European beech? Not a problem. 16/4 cherry? How many BF?

[Trevor Walsh]

Chris, I do plan on posting process shots, maybe here in a dedicated thread, certainly on the blog. Stay tuned. I'm beginning the layout for the steel momentarily.

David, The old sweedish blades are "The Trust-X Brand" I have 32, 24 and 18 TPI, they have a wave set, but it's small, much smaller than most wavy set blades today. I use 18TPI in 1/8" and 18 or 24TPI in thinner stuff. I usually saw at a low angle, 20 degrees or so, so the length of cut is actually longer than 3/32 or 1/8. This way I don't break teeth much if ever. I've used Lenox, Starrett as well as Sandvik blades and haven't had problems. The Sandvik, Starrett and Trust-x have been the best, Lenox was miles ahead of HF or Buck, but not as good as the first three.

[Chris Griggs]

Norsewoodsmith did a nice little tutorial on making a one piece traditional coffin smoother (http://norsewoodsmith.com/node/22). Has some great info on layout and the building process, but I definitely wouldn't want to do it without some proper floats. Wasting out the material seems time consuming but not exceptionally hard - its the final shaping of the interior that seems particularly difficult. As Zach said, seems like it would be easy to mistakenly open the mouth up into a mangled maw while tuning the bed.

[David Weaver]

I have, several times. In addition to many early, total failures, I've made a wooden miter plane, in the traditional manner, out of beech. Also working on a 34" hard maple jointer plane (not done, its a project that is being finished in spurts). My biggest problem has always been the mouth opening. I usually mung them up pretty hard and have to patch the sole. I haven't patched the miter plane (works incredibly well even with a giant mouth) and it is quite ragged, almost to the point that I'm ashamed of it. But it works great.

Layout, in my opinion, is the easy part. Its cutting to the lines consistently through 3 or 4" of hard maple, or beech, thats tough.

I don't like the laminated plane style. I'd rather try something the hard, traditional way and fail, or minimally succeed, i.e. it works but looks terrible, and learn from it than do something the non-traditional way. My first planes were terrible (I literally burned them in a Bonfire of the Plane-ities), but I've learned each time. The plow I'm working on has actually been easier than the miter plane, although I suspect thats because I had the plow to copy, but no miter plane to reference.

As for stock availability, I've always been lucky, which helps me maintain my attitude about traditional planes. I got what is probably a plane-making lifetime supply (90bf) of 12/4 beech from a local sawmill (for free... gloat) about 3 years ago. Its finally getting dry enough to use. That, and I've got Johnson's Lumber about 6 blocks from my house. They have incredible supplies of any wood you can think of, in pretty much any thickness. Need 12/4 European beech? Not a problem. 16/4 cherry? How many BF?

Zach, presume you're not working with floats? I didn't get as clean around the abutments as I wanted and had some breakout from being too aggresive on the first two I tried. I drilled the mouth out with a cordless drill on one and an auger on the other, and won't have any issue with that. It's, like you say, a matter of some repetition, i guess, making sure to not make the same error twice. It does require a little bit of visualization to cut the mortise and make sure you don't go in past the line on any part of the abutment.

I waffle on this stuff because, for example, I got a 28 or 30" jt brown jointer which is exactly what i'd want if I ordered a plane off a menu in terms of how it's put together and designed, for $25. It's hard to get the lumber for that. I don't think I have another woody plane that was more than $20. It makes it hard to justify buying wood when you need the build for entertainment more than you need the finished result.

[Bob Strawn]

Has anyone else here other than george taken a crack at cutting out one of those planes from a piece of solid stock?

I have made a couple of planes from a bit of solid stock. None of them are as nice as the Krenov Planes that I have made. The Krenov is a fairly forgiving form. I am working on another one now and taking my own sweet time on it. I am copying an old coffin smoother, but making it out of osage. It should hold up forever, but I could not choose a more difficult wood to make it with.

Bob

[David Weaver]

Norsewoodsmith did a nice little tutorial on making a one piece traditional coffin smoother (http://norsewoodsmith.com/node/22). Has some great info on layout and the building process, but I definitely wouldn't want to do it without some proper floats. Wasting out the material seems time consuming but not exceptionally hard - its the final shaping of the interior that seems particularly difficult. As Zach said, seems like it would be easy to mistakenly open the mouth up into a mangled maw while tuning the bed.

Thanks, Chris. That's what I was looking for. That's basically how I went about my business, but I got in a hurry wanting to cut the mortise and do clean up and abutments in an hour. (I usually approach things the other way, taking an inordinate amount of time to do something instead).

[Zach Dillinger]

Zach, presume you're not working with floats? I didn't get as clean around the abutments as I wanted and had some breakout from being too aggresive on the first two I tried. I drilled the mouth out with a cordless drill on one and an auger on the other, and won't have any issue with that. It's, like you say, a matter of some repetition, i guess, making sure to not make the same error twice. It does require a little bit of visualization to cut the mortise and make sure you don't go in past the line on any part of the abutment.

I waffle on this stuff because, for example, I got a 28 or 30" jt brown jointer which is exactly what i'd want if I ordered a plane off a menu in terms of how it's put together and designed, for $25. It's hard to get the lumber for that. I don't think I have another woody plane that was more than $20. It makes it hard to justify buying wood when you need the build for entertainment more than you need the finished result.


David, my first examples were hacked out without floats. Since then, I've made a couple of floats for myself and I also find rifflers handy. I'm with you with regards to the easy availability of high quality wooden planes and their low cost. That's why I tend to make things that I wouldn't be able to easily find, or afford, like a miter plane or a huge jointer. I've got many wooden plows, but none that are exactly what I want, hence the sweet little walnut plow I'm making now.

I've got dozens, more than a hundred less than a 1,000, of wooden planes, but I still find types I don't have. For the kinds that I want, sometimes making them is the only way to go. I'm too cheap, like you $20 is about the limit for a wooden plane, unless its a plow or really special in some other way.

[Chris Griggs]

BTW - have you guys seen the video on FWWs site of George demonstrating the equipment he adapted for plane making (might need the online membership to access it). Not particularly useful for any of us, but it sure is brilliant. The videos not completely in real time but it looks like they could probably complete the mortising for a plane in about 10-15 minutes - its crazy!. I wonder how Old Street/C&W does it in mass.

[Trevor Walsh]

I'm working on a solid beech miter with endgrain mouth closer. I've also built a two part abutment plane. I like single piece planes better, and it's worth finding the stock for, but I think building a prototype plane out of poplar in the two-part abutment style would really help ones understanding of the geometry involved so you can reproduce it in the confined space of a body.

One thing that would be an interesting but even more arcane subject would be how planemakers were trained, not just how to make them.

Anywho...attached are pictures of the hacksaw blades I use, screws, zinc removal and some of the layout so far. Plus pictures of the miter with mouth closer in progress. I've made some floats and they are good tools to have, but I've also used Bill Carter's blunt chisel technique. He has a wonderfully descriptive site, check it out if you've never been, and bring a book if could take a while to get through it all.

David, I'd wait on the mill, I learned how to work on them a while ago, and we have one in the model shop I teach at so I use it with simple fixtures to do things a little faster. Unless you really start making planes I don't think it will be that beneficial and for those of us with more hobby than space or money $100 will buy you blades, files, steel and beer enough to work on a few.

[David Weaver]

Yeah, it was a broaching attachment or head or whatever the folks who work metal with mills call those things.

I know that OST uses machine tools and power tools for some steps, but that finishing is generally by hand.

I wonder how one of those air operated sculptors tools would work with a wood chisel in the end of it.

One of my biggest challenges in the first two mortises I hacked out was paying attention to the chips and making sure I didn't set the plane down on anything as I was turning it around and pounding it out in a hurry. I had several pocks from not noticing a chip was on the table.

I have a new timber chisel to try, and am starting to feel like maybe I might make a plane if I can find something nice to use in my plane wood pile.

[Klaus Kretschmar]

Trevor, I like to follow your posts since my approach in this build off also will be a mitre plane;). Yours looks very good so far...

Klaus

[Trevor Walsh]

Klaus you're too kind, what sort of miter are you planning on? Do you have any progress pictures yet? or an example you're working from? Or are you keeping it under wraps for another few weeks?

[David Weaver]

I thought you had??? i almost did. i cut two bodies with mortises, mouths and abutments but decided i couldn't live with the results and threw them out. figured i'd have better luck with saw kits and infill planes.no real trouble with a dai on the first try, though. just a little slow at making it.

[Klaus Kretschmar]

Trevor, I intend to make a specialized end grain shooter. It shall get a 37 deg. blade angle and it will become hefty although it's a woodie. And it will be a skew bladed one. I've some pictures shot of the very beginning. Need to upload them and will post them later this evening. Klaus

[Leigh Betsch]

Pictures!! Now this thread is getting good.

Just so you know that I'm working on something, here is a sketch of an experiment I have in process. A little block plane that I'm prototyping. I'm not sure if it is a success or a failure just yet.

[Peter Pedisich]

Pictures!! Now this thread is getting good.

Just so you know that I'm working on something, here is a sketch of an experiment I have in process. A little block plane that I'm prototyping. I'm not sure if it is a success or a failure just yet.

COOL!!!! Can't wait to see it.

[Klaus Kretschmar]

Some pics so far I am. It will get a Krenov type shooter. OK, I know that the Krenov style isn't appreciated that much and I can understand that. A one piece plane is by far harder to make. In my case it needed to be a Krenov plane and you'll see later, why. As mentioned already it shall become a specialized end grain shooter, so the blade angle seems to be right with 37 deg. Since I'm convinced that the end grain shooting works better with a skew bladed plane, it shall get such one.

The body is made of a piece of QS Ash that is that straight grained that it begged to become a plane body.

225069

The front of the mouth was reinforced by getting a piece of Ebony. Lignum Vitae would have been the better choice but I didn't have it around. Ebony will do the job quite good as well.

225070225071225072

The main problem I saw with a wooden shooter is the lack of weight. You like to have a plane with authority while shooting. A woodie never will give thw same feeling of authority like a metal plane... as long as will not be loaded. Plumb is the winner! I wanted to load the body with plumb to give it the heft, that I was looking for. But I've not the smallest idea if that really will work. It's just an attempt after all. I casted 2 kg plumb (about 4 1/2 lbs) in handy pieces and loaded up the plane body.

225073225074

That's the progress so far. I really don't know if all will work like I hope, it's a try after all.

Klaus

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I'm assuming by plumb, you mean the what we generally call "lead" (the soft metal) here state-side?

[Klaus Kretschmar]

You're right, Josh. My translator gave me the English word plumb, you know it as lead.

Klaus

[Chris Griggs]

Klaus, I am sooooooooo excited about your plane build. I've always wondered if one could add metal waits to a wood plane. Slickness of a wood plane, weight advantage of a metal plane - it's like a reverse infill. I think this is the best thread ever!!! Keep posting Klaus!

[Bob Strawn]

I think this is the best thread ever!!!

I have to admit, this thread keeps getting better and better! It's keeping me inspired, I am already planning another plane.

Bob

[Zander Kale]

I'm assuming you don't have a mill but if you did, you can make a one piece sole from steel (this is from black mild steel, probably 1018). The screws attach it to the block of wood that forms the rest of the plane.
http://zkprojectnotebook.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/sole2.jpg?w=500

[Leigh Betsch]

Wow I never tough about putting lead in a plane, sounds like a great idea. I did put lead shot in a small hammer, I have a rubber dead blow with lead shot, works great, but my shop build wooded one is still to light. I think your leaded plane is great idea.
Zander, how about a look at more than the sole.?
My little block is coming along quite well, should get a pic up tomorrow.

[Steve knight]

I am finishing up four woodies. Mine are made from old Steve Knight designs. I like Steve's designs better as they are made from two pieces of easier to find 8/4 lumber. Here are two made from 8/4 Purple Heart. Chris these planes do not use any kind of bar or chip breaker.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/16891057@N05/6753523005/lightbox/

I think I need to talk to Stu, my problem is the blades I have are short for the bodies, making it difficult to make small enough wedges.

Here is the basic design for a Jointer. The long thin area is for a tote. One simply glues two boards with the following relief together. The black line indicates the area for the wedge, which is a little deeper in the wood.:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/16891057@N05/6062441322/in/photostream/lightbox/

These planes use a thick 1/4, 3/16 single blade with a wooden wedge, no chip breaker, kinda like many Japanese planes.

way cool. I only used a 19,000 machine to do that design (G) But I did like it as the grain was always oriented well and only two pieces with a great glue joint. No thin sides to expand or contract faster then the body.

[Trevor Walsh]

Klaus, cool plane can't wait to see to glued up.

Zander, a one piece sole does have it's appeal, and for a bevel down plane that would do, problem here is my miter will be a bevel up plane, so the mouth is very very small. I could form the geometry out of solid with a die simker EDM machine, but I don't have access to one of those or know too much about them to do that yet.

[Klaus Kretschmar]

The plane is glued together already. After removing the clamps it had to go on the balance. I was rather curious about it's weight. Well, it ended up with 3219 grams what's a little more than 7 lbs. For comparison: my #8 is 3672 grams, the LV BUS is 2731 grams. So it really is hefty, maybe a little less would have been more. That can't be judged before it will be used however. For now it's a surprising thing every time I lift it although I know that it's a heavy beast. The eye still doesn't accept that a woody is that heavy.

It has to get some shaping now and a few other things. When I'm done, I'll be happy to post a few pics.

Klaus

[Zander Kale]

...and for a bevel down plane that would do, problem here is my miter will be a bevel up plane, so the mouth is very very small. I could form the geometry out of solid with a die simker EDM machine, but I don't have access to one of those or know too much about them to do that yet.
An EDM or water jet would be ideal but you still have to cut the ramp. You can cut a bevel up mouth on a mill and it isn't tooo bad; if you don't mind a bit of space behind the iron it is easier (this miter has ~ a 1/16" total slot width and a few thou mouth).
http://zkprojectnotebook.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/mouth25b45d.jpg?w=300

[Roderick Gentry]

I have a few Krenov style planes with long irons. Mainly because I had them lying around. The only real downside other than the look is just that my hand runs up onto one of them and it isn't all that comfortable at times. That has a lot to do with the shape of the block. Krenov built a few with a bit of a Beavertail to them.

[Stewie Simpson]

The plane is glued together already. After removing the clamps it had to go on the balance. I was rather curious about it's weight. Well, it ended up with 3219 grams what's a little more than 7 lbs. For comparison: my #8 is 3672 grams, the LV BUS is 2731 grams. So it really is hefty, maybe a little less would have been more. That can't be judged before it will be used however. For now it's a surprising thing every time I lift it although I know that it's a heavy beast. The eye still doesn't accept that a woody is that heavy.

It has to get some shaping now and a few other things. When I'm done, I'll be happy to post a few pics.

Klaus

Hi Klaus. Did you think about shaping the wedge before you glued the sides on.

Stewie;

[Klaus Kretschmar]

Hi Klaus. Did you think about shaping the wedge before you glued the sides on.

Stewie;

Hi Stewie, yes I shaped a wedge. Unfortunately it doesn't fit like it should now, after the plane is glued up. I think that it can be saved for temporary use however. That's all I need for the moment because the plane will get another blade. I want to have a thicker one which isn't tapered. Right now I have a vinage one from an Ulmia jointer that is tapered. When the new blade will be inserted I need to make a new wedge anyway.

Klaus

[Trevor Walsh]

From what I've seen of die sinker EDM (at mold making facilities) there isn't a reason why the bed and ware couldn't be formed at the same time. They have formed complex geometric shapes with much larger surface areas. Die sinker EDM is different than "EDM" that most are familiar with, which is spark erosion with a very small diameter wire. Die sinker uses a solid carbon negative geometrical shape to spark erode that shape into something.

[Chris Griggs]

So, just for giggles, I ended up attempting to make a plane from what I had on hand. I didn't have a spare blade around and at the moment I don't have any stock thicker than 4/4 so I decided to pull the blade out of my LV little victor and try to make a wooden body for it. I used two part lamination with abutments (like the steve knight kits) which allowed my to get away with using 4/4 stock. I cut the bed at 40 degrees to make a low angle bevel down plane. The plane is curly maple (soft) but I initially ended up with a monstrous mouth so I glue on a white oak sole and recut the mouth with chisels. The mouth still came out a fair bit bigger than I wanted but it was a heck of a lot better than before. I've been messing about and tweaking it for the past few days and have it working pretty decently - not phenomenally well, but plenty well enough for a little trimming plane. Probably not the worst plane ever made and for a first try I'm pretty happy. I'm not sure if I'll actually end up using it since the blade belongs in another plane, but it works well enough that I may throw spare little victor blade in my cart next time I order something from LV just fun.

Anyway, I really just did it as a learning experience and by doing two part lamination with abutments I really got a better understanding of how the interior of a wooden plane works, and after doing this would be much more comfortable attempting a one piece plane. Truth be told - if I did this size plane again I'd probably still do the two part lamination but use a pin instead of cutting the abutments. On this small plane the abutments seem a bit fragile and a cross pin just seems like it would make more sense and be sturdier for something this small scale.

Please forgive the crappy cell phone pics

In hand for scale
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End grain and face grain shavings on the piece of wood it was made from (plane cannibalism)
225223 225224

[Klaus Kretschmar]

Neat plane, Chris! You did a good job on this one. It's about the size of a block plane so the bed angle is right to my eyes. It's about the angle of a low angle block plane that is primarily designed to cut end grain. On this job it doesn't matter if the mouth is some wider as intended. To cut end grain, a tight mouth isn't needed.

The wood is very very nice and -what I like especially- is the proper blendings of the shape. Especially on a one handed used plane, a smooth shape is very important to make the tool feel comfortable. I think that you will have much pleasure with the little gem.

Klaus

[Bob Strawn]

It's a beauty Chris, cute and functional! It makes a nice shaving and it looks comfortable to push or pull, so I think it's a keeper.


Bob

[Chris Griggs]

Thanks Klaus and Bob,

Regarding the shape. I had originally planned to try to make a mini coffin smoother, but 1) I didn't really have anything to base it on and 2) It didn't seem like it would be comfortable as a one-handed plane. So I just decided to put aesthetics aside start removing material until it was comfortable and the curves were fair. It funny, I wasn't trying to make it look like one of Krenov's planes, but by the time I got it to a place that I thought it was comfortable the shape was darn near identical to a Krenov - it really is a comfortable shape and makes me want to make a few more like it. I also really want to make a miter plane like the one oyu are working on Klaus, but that will need to wait.

Also I agree Klaus, though I wanted a tighter mouth it doesn't matter that its a little wide - if I end up using this plane much it will mostly be for little chamfers and trimmings so the slightly over-sized mouth isn't a big a deal.

[Zach Dillinger]

Nice looking plane Chris! That would make a nice addition to anyone's kit.

[Zach Dillinger]

Here's my finished entry for the contest. All finished now, with the obligatory shavings shot.

The major design change that I used was to use a copper skate instead of a steel one. I thought it would look good against the dark walnut finish, and I feel I'm right. The plane, in person, looks an awful lot like rosewood. Finish is 8 coats of linseed oil and 6 coats of blonde shellac, which was then rubbed out with amber paste wax. Works great!! Total time invested is about 25 hours over 8 days.


225277225279225280225281225278

Just scored a copy of Rosebrook's plow plane book for $20 at an antique store, so I'll probably be making more plows. This was a lot of fun! Now I just need more sets of plow plane irons to make it worthwhile.

[Leigh Betsch]

Looks great Zack.

[Leigh Betsch]

Ok here's what I've been working on. It's a 40 bevel up block plane with a 1/2 wide blade. It's a experimental version. I want to try out few idea's I had on a small plane before getting into something more complicated. I wanted to make a small plane with a fairly open throat, with low and narrow cheeks. So I used steel for them, with the cross pin this close to the edge wood would surly crack. I anchored the steel cheeks to 3/8 dia steel cross pins buried in the beech body, then pinned thru them with 1/4 brass rod. I also used a 1/4 brass cross pin for the clamp. Lignum sole, dovetailed to the beech body. It has an adjustable mouth held in by the front thumb screw. Add some brass strike buttons, some Tru Oil and there you have it.

I will start my real entry into this contest that's not a contest, tonight. Based a bit on this block plane design.

[Chris Griggs]

Zach your plane is so awesome. Beautifully done!

Leigh you've always got something innovative up you sleeve - your block plane is great and I can't wait to see your "real" entry.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Great work all around guys. I'm digging watching this thread.

Zach - I'm assuming the extra wooden bit rising from the plane body (on the forward end, further to the fence than the wedge and iron) is some form of depth stop? Does the depth stop get stopped by the same wedge that holds the arm in place?

[Ryan Baker]

I had a few minutes this afternoon, so I got started on my plane build. I am chopping a traditional escapement in a one-piece maple body. This stuff is really hard. This may take a while. :)

[Zach Dillinger]

Thanks, everyone, for the kind words! Joshua, you're right, that extra wooden bit is a depth stop. It is a friction fit into the body and also locks into place with the wedge and arm for the fence. My next plow (as soon as I get a new set of irons) will be a "Yankee" plow that will be a copy of a Francis Nicholson plow from the 1740s. That one uses a threaded knob to lock the depth stop in place.

[Zach Dillinger]

I had a few minutes this afternoon, so I got started on my plane build. I am chopping a traditional escapement in a one-piece maple body. This stuff is really hard. This may take a while. :)

Good luck with that. I've been working on a large jointer plane in hard maple for about a year. I kept getting frustrated with the effort needed to cut the mouth mortise. Keep at it! I finally got through mine but it was a fight.

[george wilson]

Fast work,Zach!! I can't work that fast anymore!!:) Great job!!

[Jim Neeley]

Here's my progress. This is the result of about 5 hours of layout and benchwork yesterday. All hand tools, of course. I split out the body from a larger chunk of walnut that ended up being nearly quartersawn. Very nice wood to work. I'm making a copy of a possibly-18th century plow that is in my collection, although mine is going to be walnut rather than beech and has square arms rather than semi-circular. There will be one other design change... but I'm not quite ready to reveal that yet!

The first pic is the results of the day's work. Having my bench this cluttered drives me nuts!

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Looking sweet, Zach!!

Jim

[Jim Neeley]

The main problem I saw with a wooden shooter is the lack of weight. You like to have a plane with authority while shooting. A woodie never will give thw same feeling of authority like a metal plane... as long as will not be loaded. Plumb is the winner! I wanted to load the body with plumb to give it the heft, that I was looking for. But I've not the smallest idea if that really will work. It's just an attempt after all. I casted 2 kg plumb (about 4 1/2 lbs) in handy pieces and loaded up the plane body.

That's the progress so far. I really don't know if all will work like I hope, it's a try after all.

Klaus

Klaus,

I think you're on to something good here in adding lead to your shooter and 7# sounds about right to me. I like the feel of my 10# L-N #8 or my 7.5# Veritas BU Jointer for end grain and L-N's #51 beveled angle shooter is 9# ao I think you'll be right in there. I look forward to following your build! <g>

Jim in Alaska

[Jim Neeley]

Nice, Chris!! :)

[Jim Neeley]

Awesome, Zach.. and it certainly looks a lot like rosewood to me too.

[Klaus Kretschmar]

Nice stuff here for sure!

Zach, your plow plane turned out great. A very traditional approach on the making that shows it's overall quality even at the pics. Very nice finish!

Leigh, that is a pretty ingenious design for a block plane. I'm more than curious to get some more detailed explanations and pics. Looking great so far!

Klaus

[Stuart Tierney]

I'd just like to add something here regarding what I'd mentioned earlier...

How would a 50mm wide, 100-150mm long and 5-6mm thick laminated blade sound?

(I think they could even be tapered if that's something desirable...)

Still need to iron out the details, but apparently they'll be easy. :)

I'm not entertaining various widths, lengths or other details just now, it's best to just get 'something' available than to have a myriad of options.

No other details just yet, only that they're a 'go'.

Stu.

[Chris Griggs]

I'd just like to add something here regarding what I'd mentioned earlier...

How would a 50mm wide, 100-150mm long and 5-6mm thick laminated blade sound?

(I think they could even be tapered if that's something desirable...)

Still need to iron out the details, but apparently they'll be easy. :)

I'm not entertaining various widths, lengths or other details just now, it's best to just get 'something' available than to have a myriad of options.

No other details just yet, only that they're a 'go'.

Stu.

Just to clarify. Is this something different than you mentioned previously? Solid?... No holes for chipbreakers and what not?

[Stuart Tierney]

Just to clarify. Is this something different than you mentioned previously? Solid?... No holes for chipbreakers and what not?

That's the plan.

A solid piece of soft steel with a piece of hard steel forge welded on the end and ground to a usable shape.


Basically, something like an old 'cast steel' blade as you'd find in an old woody or infill made within a month of having it in your hands.

Because they're being forged and most likely hand ground to final shape, tapering for length shouldn't be an issue at all. As in thicker at the sharp end, thinner at the blunt end.

(And most likely blue steel.)

And because the not pointy end will be soft steel (not even mild steel I don't believe) if you wanted to add a slot yourself, it'd be easy enough to do with a drill, a hacksaw and a file and you could make it any size you wanted.

Just a really simple, no nonsense blade. That's all.

Stu.

[Chris Griggs]

That's the plan.

A solid piece of soft steel with a piece of hard steel forge welded on the end and ground to a usable shape.


Basically, something like an old 'cast steel' blade as you'd find in an old woody or infill made within a month of having it in your hands.

Because they're being forged and most likely hand ground to final shape, tapering for length shouldn't be an issue at all. As in thicker at the sharp end, thinner at the blunt end.

(And most likely blue steel.)

And because the not pointy end will be soft steel (not even mild steel I don't believe) if you wanted to add a slot yourself, it'd be easy enough to do with a drill, a hacksaw and a file and you could make it any size you wanted.

Just a really simple, no nonsense blade. That's all.

Stu.

Sounds great to me! I bet Dave will order a few and stick them in his infills.

[David Weaver]

I'd just like to add something here regarding what I'd mentioned earlier...

How would a 50mm wide, 100-150mm long and 5-6mm thick laminated blade sound?

(I think they could even be tapered if that's something desirable...)

Still need to iron out the details, but apparently they'll be easy. :)

I'm not entertaining various widths, lengths or other details just now, it's best to just get 'something' available than to have a myriad of options.

No other details just yet, only that they're a 'go'.

Stu.

uh....i've been bugging for these for a while!

The way it goes lately, I'll finally get around to building a few more planes, and then as soon as i get them done, there will be some #1 Blue steel iron on your page!

No taper for infills, should be parallel so people can control the mouth opening.

Of course, the woody folks will want one tapered. 5 or 6mm thickness, either would be fine.

[Chris Griggs]

Of course, the woody folks will want one tapered.

What's the benefit of tapering blade this way?

[David Weaver]

When you tap it, it loosens. It probably stays set in a heavy cut better, too, especially if the wedge fit isn't perfect.

[Zach Dillinger]

What's the benefit of tapering blade this way?

The tapered blade and the actual wedge act like folding wedges, so that as the force of the plane pushing through the wood pushes the iron back, the wedging action gets tighter. Prevents the iron from sliding backwards (losing its setting) in use.

[Tony Shea]

Stu, that'd be great. I also would prefer a flat iron if given the choice. To be able to get a nice no nonsense blue steel blade would be an absolute dream. I have one of the Stanley replacements and really like the actual blade, the plane isn't my favorite though.

But having that thickness and no slots involved would be a very nice thing to have available to us.

[Trevor Walsh]

What's the price point looking like?

[bridger berdel]

this is probably a bit different from what most of you will post. I made this because I really needed a butt mortise plane, and I needed it quick. it 'aint beautiful. I started it with a 5/8 chisel as a cutter, which worked OK, except that it made the thing top heavy and ungainly to use. and the taper of the chisel was backwards, which meant that I had to really slam the wedge in to keep it set, which is probably why it broke. so I fixed it and used a 5/8 plough blade from a multiplane, which is where it is right now. I'll put it to work tomorrow and see how it does.225527225528225529225530

[bridger berdel]

more pix225531225532225533225534225535

[Leigh Betsch]

Sheesh, a butt mortise plane. There must be planes to make planes.
Bridger, I like it. Just wish I knew how to use it.
So many planes, so little time...........

[bridger berdel]

last few of a quick and dirty woodie butt mortise plane...225536225537

[Leigh Betsch]

Stu sign me up for one of those new irons, I need something for a couple of infill's I need to make later this year.

or maybe more..........

[Jack Curtis]

last few of a quick and dirty woodie butt mortise plane...

If you'd just done the mortise with the chisel, you'd be done by now. :)

[Kees Heiden]

I'd just like to add something here regarding what I'd mentioned earlier...

How would a 50mm wide, 100-150mm long and 5-6mm thick laminated blade sound?

(I think they could even be tapered if that's something desirable...)

Still need to iron out the details, but apparently they'll be easy. :)

I'm not entertaining various widths, lengths or other details just now, it's best to just get 'something' available than to have a myriad of options.

No other details just yet, only that they're a 'go'.

Stu.

Hi Stu,

Great idea, but isn't that way too short? When you want to make it available as something for building traditional western wooden planes, then you should look at something like 7" long and about 4mm thick at the business end.

[Stuart Tierney]

Hi Stu,

Great idea, but isn't that way too short? When you want to make it available as something for building traditional western wooden planes, then you should look at something like 7" long and about 4mm thick at the business end.


Hi Kees,

As mentioned "I'm not entertaining various widths, lengths or other details just now, it's best to just get 'something' available than to have a myriad of options", something more tailored to a particular purpose might be available later after the 'need right now' is addressed in some way.

I also need to be able to show that these kinds of irons are wanted in numbers that make them worthwhile. In order to just get something going, I'm leaving a lot of the details up to the folks making them, depending on what they have available on hand so they don't need to get anything in specially, just bash on what they've got lying about.

I'm thinking that a straight on all sides (no taper), 150mm long and 50mm wide, or close to it. Might be a little wider, a little narrower. Just so long as they're easy and cheap to make so we can get them out there at a nice, competitive price. What that price will be exactly I do not know right now, but I'm willing to trim some niceties to hit that price point if it's needed.

I'll do what I can and see what happens.

Stu.

[Jerome Hanby]

I've got a slightly off topic question for you. How well does that Stanley chisel sharpen and retain it's edge? I've got a set of three of those that have been my beaters for years and was considering doing some work on them to get them flattened and sharp.


this is probably a bit different from what most of you will post. I made this because I really needed a butt mortise plane, and I needed it quick. it 'aint beautiful. I started it with a 5/8 chisel as a cutter, which worked OK, except that it made the thing top heavy and ungainly to use. and the taper of the chisel was backwards, which meant that I had to really slam the wedge in to keep it set, which is probably why it broke. so I fixed it and used a 5/8 plough blade from a multiplane, which is where it is right now. I'll put it to work tomorrow and see how it does.225527225528225529225530

[Jerome Hanby]

When it comes to hollows and rounds, there are definitely planes to make planes <g>. I can't recall the term used for them, but they are basically negative versions of the hollow or round you want to make. Used for shaping the sole. All of this based on my personal experience....surfing the web and scrounging fairly useless information <g>.


Sheesh, a butt mortise plane. There must be planes to make planes.
Bridger, I like it. Just wish I knew how to use it.
So many planes, so little time...........

[David Weaver]

I think they're called mother planes. But i don't have any mother planes, so I'm not sure. (it would be nice to have them!)

[David Weaver]

I'm thinking that a straight on all sides (no taper), 150mm long and 50mm wide, or close to it. Might be a little wider, a little narrower.

I think that'd be the best size to start with. 175x50 might not be bad, either. I'm assuming that everything other than two inches at the cutting edge would be mild steel. I'll get back to you on how long my two commercial 2" wide infill irons are, unless someone else provides the courtesy of doing it earlier.

An iron like that could go in krenov style planes and infill planes, and if it's mild steel or iron backing and the krenov people don't like the length, they can cut it with a hacksaw and file the end decorative of whatever they'd like - something that's not nearly as easy to do with a full thickness fully hardened iron.

Mild steel or iron back would also get the people who hate to sharpen thick irons less trouble.

[Zach Dillinger]

I think they're called mother planes. But i don't have any mother planes, so I'm not sure. (it would be nice to have them!)

Yup, mother planes. You can use a scratchstock as a mother plane, if you're careful to rough out the profile you want with gouges / chisels, then finish off the profile with the scraper. If you really wanted to get crazy, you could make the scratchstock to make the mother plane, then use the mother plane to make the actual plane, but unless you're going into business making a certain profile, this probably wouldn't make much sense.

[David Weaver]

I have been roughing out the round with an infill panel plane and roughing the center of the hollow out with a plow as larry did, and then going back and forth with the two on sandpaper until they match and are approximately at scribe lines on each end of the plane.

I think that's exactly how larry did it in his video. It's easy to get a bit of twist in the H&Rs if you're not careful doing it that way, though. I did that on my first pair, and ultimately scrapped them. I think if I built 200 pairs of them, I could get to where I didn't have to check, but since then, I've checked progress on the hollow with a square to make sure both runners (for lack of a better word) are square to open side of the plane (can't remember what the open side is called).

If we were all more productive, a set of mother planes could be made and passed around. I'd have it for 3 years before I finish my half set, though. So that's just a happy pie in the sky thought to even suggest something like that. Building them would be out of style before I passed the set along to someone else.

[Zach Dillinger]

Couldn't you make one, say the round, first, then use it as a mother plane to make the sole of the mating hollow? This would ensure that they match. I think that the mother plane technique is really only useful for complex shapes.

[David Weaver]

Yes, you can. that's basically what you do. I guess you could finish the round better than I do. I jack the round, and then use it in the plowed hollow to work the hollow enough until it's ready to work the round. Then check the profiles on both and see if the round needs any correction geometrically (same with the hollow) and work them back and forth a little bit until the profile is uniform and square to the open side of the plane.

I'm not sure if that's exactly how larry did it in the video, or if he does do a better job of finishing the hollow first. Regardless of how coarse it is, even with 220 grit paper, whatever undulations are left on the round, they come off fast.

I think my mother plane on any detailed profile planes (if I ever make such a thing) will probably be a router bit. I've used a router once in the last three years, but I think I could turn one on again if I had to do it to make a plane :rolleyes:

[Kees Heiden]

Hi Kees,

As mentioned "I'm not entertaining various widths, lengths or other details just now, it's best to just get 'something' available than to have a myriad of options", something more tailored to a particular purpose might be available later after the 'need right now' is addressed in some way.

I also need to be able to show that these kinds of irons are wanted in numbers that make them worthwhile. In order to just get something going, I'm leaving a lot of the details up to the folks making them, depending on what they have available on hand so they don't need to get anything in specially, just bash on what they've got lying about.

I'm thinking that a straight on all sides (no taper), 150mm long and 50mm wide, or close to it. Might be a little wider, a little narrower. Just so long as they're easy and cheap to make so we can get them out there at a nice, competitive price. What that price will be exactly I do not know right now, but I'm willing to trim some niceties to hit that price point if it's needed.

I'll do what I can and see what happens.

Stu.


Yes, one size to start, good idea. It would be great if there was a new iron available along the lines of these perfect irons of old, made by a knowledgable blacksmith. It looks like there is quite an interest in antique wooden planes. So make the iron that fits in that line. It would be a pitty when you go through all the hassle and just miss the boat. The old ones were 7" long and not so rediculous thick. 4mm is plenty.

But maybe I am all wrong and nobody is interested in all that old shit.

[Zach Dillinger]

I'm with you, Kees. I'd be interested in getting my hands on some proper "old school" blades. Preferably with round tops...

[David Weaver]

I personally would rather have a 6mm iron (if the backing is soft) than 4mm. We have a better array of abrasives to grind an iron, and a thicker iron makes the planemaker's job easier with the mouth of the plane, especially if like me, you open the mouth with a cordless drill and files.

That's also assuming that people would want these to build an infill plane.

I can see where folks might want to use a lighter iron (especially folks who never use anything to power sharpen) and have a lighter feeling plane. If it was a double iron, I'd be pleased with 4mm.

[Stuart Tierney]

Yes, one size to start, good idea. It would be great if there was a new iron available along the lines of these perfect irons of old, made by a knowledgable blacksmith. It looks like there is quite an interest in antique wooden planes. So make the iron that fits in that line. It would be a pitty when you go through all the hassle and just miss the boat. The old ones were 7" long and not so rediculous thick. 4mm is plenty.

But maybe I am all wrong and nobody is interested in all that old shit.

One of the best in world be good enough? ;)

You know, it's being able to say that with complete honesty and to also call that person a friend that makes this little niche I've carved out for myself just a little bit extra special.

Back to work.

Stu.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Okay, I'm interested in these irons now, too. What's the shipping cost apt to be for sending something like that 'cross the ocean?

[bridger berdel]

I've got a slightly off topic question for you. How well does that Stanley chisel sharpen and retain it's edge? I've got a set of three of those that have been my beaters for years and was considering doing some work on them to get them flattened and sharp.

Jerome-
I'd say that they are all over the place. the steel is good enough that they can be gotten shaving sharp, but keeping them that way is the road to frustration. I have a few of them of varying ages, and have worked on/sharpened a few more. I might go out on a limb and say that the older ones are harder. I'd say that they range from decent to waaay too soft for bench work. remember, they're designed for smacking with a hammer and digging/ prying about on framing lumber. most of them can be sharpened with a file, though I have found a few of them a bit too hard for that. I keep a set together for site work/ carpentry. recently I needed a couple of sizes for fitting some hardware in soft wood which I didn't have in bench chisels, so I lowered the bevel angles on some of the stanley butts and honed/stropped them for bench use. they worked fine for that job, but I'd sure rather have decent bench chisels for that sort of thing.

I have an old one that the plastic handle disintegrated from. it's just hard enough for a sharp file to bite a little. I'm considering hardening/ tempering it and grinding it to some other shape, maybe thin the edges for close quarters paring. I suspect that the steel will harden up fine.

[David Weaver]

By itself, the shipping is cheap enough that you can just think of it as domestic shipping for a package not over 2kg.

It's definitely cheaper for them to ship to us than the other way around.

[Kees Heiden]

Well, if it's going to be a replica of an old fashioned western woodie iron, then I am all over it.

It's a pitty the Great Woodie Buildoff is now, because I am in the middle of a big renovation project at home and don't have time for this. Otherwise a nice wooden jackplane like George pictured on the forum would be a great challenge for me.

[Bob Strawn]

Since George Wilson has decided not to enter this, we are going to end up with a serious lack of George Wilson plane pictures. So as a public service, here are a few threads that have not been seen for a while. Only the second one is a woodie, but I think they are all good inspirations:

This one is metal, and not the best picture, but Wow! (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?180986-An-engraved-bronze-chariot-plane-I-made)

This one is a classic wooden jointer! (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?168167-A-large-jointer-plane-I-made)

This one is made of silver! (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?109305-A-solid-silver-miter-plane)

Here is an Infill Smoother! (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?108187-A-dovetailed-smooth-plane)

Bob

[Chris Griggs]

Since George Wilson has decided not to enter this, we are going to end up with a serious lack of George Wilson plane pictures. So as a public service, here are a few threads that have not been seen for a while. Only the second one is a woodie, but I think they are all good inspirations:

This one is metal, and not the best picture, but Wow! (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?180986-An-engraved-bronze-chariot-plane-I-made)

This one is a classic wooden jointer! (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?168167-A-large-jointer-plane-I-made)

This one is made of silver! (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?109305-A-solid-silver-miter-plane)

Here is an Infill Smoother! (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?108187-A-dovetailed-smooth-plane)

Bob

I'd never seen the silver one, that's way cools. And the fact that its silver means you can use it to fight werewolves as well as plane wood? What a great multitool!

[Mike Allen1010]

I'm in. Currently have two in progress. Glued up a 28 inch long blank for a jointer last night and have a smoother blank ready for milling. If it warms a bit this afternoon, I'll go out and cut the cheeks in both. I have a couple 1/4 inch by 2 inch blades of A2 steel ready to go. Just honed two days ago. The first one I did went in the first plane I made out of a piece of cherry I pulled out of the fire wood pile.

Very cool Bob! I love the curves, contours and facets!

I've never built a woodie plane before and yours is a great example of the inspiration I need to take the leap -- thanks for sharing!

Come on you guys, we need more plane pictures!!!

Mike

[Klaus Kretschmar]

Since George Wilson has decided not to enter this, we are going to end up with a serious lack of George Wilson plane pictures. So as a public service, here are a few threads that have not been seen for a while. Only the second one is a woodie, but I think they are all good inspirations:

This one is metal, and not the best picture, but Wow! (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?180986-An-engraved-bronze-chariot-plane-I-made)

This one is a classic wooden jointer! (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?168167-A-large-jointer-plane-I-made)

This one is made of silver! (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?109305-A-solid-silver-miter-plane)

Here is an Infill Smoother! (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?108187-A-dovetailed-smooth-plane)

Bob

He's so good!!! Had to save some pics in a sudden, thank you for providing the links.

Klaus

[Leigh Betsch]

Bob, thanks for the link to Georges jointer. I knew he posted a pic of a tote I liked but didn't find it when I searched. Now that you found it for me you have given me pause in my process and now I'm back to wanting a toted jointer.

[george wilson]

Leigh,I posted a nice handle for you. See new thread.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Okay, you guys have got the wheels turning in my head - if I can find time between all the other things I should be working on, I'm going to try and come up with something. I just stumbled across my old #102 - my first plane, which hasn't been used in what seems like forever. I'll cannibalize that iron and kick myself later for not using something with a bit of taper.

[Trevor Walsh]

Well, that time has come, the time when working on something you realize the current tools at your disposal can not complete a specific operation you need for the project at hand.

Looks like I'm making an abutment saw sometime soon. I have an edge float which I use as an abutment saw, but the mouth on this plane is small, and the 1/8" thickness of the float will not fit through the mouth (without a big whoopsie).

The sole plate is roughed out, it just needs to be split and have the bed, wear and mating geometry filed into it,

[Chris Griggs]

Looks like I'm making an abutment saw sometime soon. I have an edge float which I use as an abutment saw, but the mouth on this plane is small, and the 1/8" thickness of the float will not fit through the mouth (without a big whoopsie).


Am I correct in assuming an abutment saw is essentially a really small keyhole saw?

Edit: Would this work? (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=32933&cat=1,42884,50321&ap=1)

[Trevor Walsh]

Yes Chris, that would do it.

[Jack Curtis]

Am I correct in assuming an abutment saw is essentially a really small keyhole saw?

Edit: Would this work? (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=32933&cat=1,42884,50321&ap=1)

I suppose, but a keyhole may be too wide to handle the abutment bottom. I use a purpose built saw that's about 1" height the whole length, very thin; which, of course, wouldn't work for planes narrower than 1" or so.

[george wilson]

A sharp,old English "pad saw" might do. It is a type of keyhole saw,but narrower. They come up for sale fairly often. I never had one.

[Zahid Naqvi]

that came out really nice Zach.

[Zahid Naqvi]

Chris, I am visualizing showing your plane to a 14 yr old girl and getting the obligatory "aww! that is so cute" remark. I think this plane has the potential to play the same role a puppy or a toddler play when it comes to attracting the finer gender of homo sapiens.

[Stuart Tierney]

Just a little update.

I've got a picture of the prototype blade mentioned earlier.

I'm not going to post it, because the blade is not what I had in mind, and is maximum overkill.

And it's massive. 200mm long, 6mm thick the full length, and made with wrought iron with blue steel laminated onto the end.

Because of all that, it's going to be rather more expensive than I had hoped, so I need to nail down the details a little better to try and minimize what they'll cost and make them a little easier to swallow, price wise.

(FWIW, the blade I'm looking at is 'as forged' and ugly, but when cleaned up and stuck in a plane, there'd be no excuses about the blade being 'not solid enough'. I think the blade probably weights a couple pounds... :eek: )

I wish I was closer, because if I was I'd make one myself to show what's really needed. I'm sorry, but I can't afford to drive for 6 hours at the moment. :(

Stu.

[Zahid Naqvi]

despite being embarrassingly crude compared to some of the other stuff posted earlier, I am going to throw out some pictures of what I have been working on. Typically this is the stage of a project I start loosing interest in, specially shop tools. the functionality has been achieved the rest is all aesthetic refinement. Chances are this plane will be finished with sweat, some minor splattering/streaks of blood and a lot of patina. The technique used is pretty obvious, as stated in my earlier post a mix of Nordic and Derek. Wood as you can see is whatever I had at hand, Maple in the middle, sides are Walnut and the handle and tote are Ash. The length matches a Stanley #6

225786 Note the stubby knob. I don't have a lathe so this had to be done on a drill press via a hex bolt screwed through the wood and held in the jaws of the drill. Shaping was done with hand held rasps, so it was a very slow and jarring experience.
225787
225788 I measured the mouth and I think it comes out to around 1/64, super sweet.
225789 Closeup of the stubby knob
225790
225785 I will probably round out the tote some more. I wasn't very careful about the slightly angled back end of the mortise, kinda eyeballed it instead of accurately measuring it on both the tote and the mortise, hence the gap. If motivated enough I might fill the gaps with some shellac and sawdust mix.

It was incredible how much the comfort level during use increased due the knob, despite its not so refined shape. The tote still needs some rounding to become comfortable. I have a wooden jointer (Sandusky I think) without a knob at the front (as was tradition) and it gives me fits after a few minutes of use. This plane during trial runs for tuning definitely illustrated the value of a knob.

[Zach Dillinger]

Ok, so I'm on a planemaking tear. This is a second entry. It is a miter plane, bedded at 35 degrees, based on an earlier attempt that didn't turn out as I'd like. This one is beech with a cherry wedge and a pink ivory strike button. I had to use a little bit of sapwood in order to make the most quartersawn grain out of the piece I already had cut. I patched the mouth with heartwood so it would wear better. My poor lighting setup made the gauge lines look extremely dark, but in person they aren't that noticeable.

225792225793225794225795225796

Finishing schedule was my normal 8 coats of linseed oil followed by 5 coats of blonde shellac. This was rubbed out with a cloth using first amber paste wax, then Johnsons clear paste wax. I especially like the wedge profile on this one, and I feel that I finally got the chamfers right, at a sharp angle in front, and smoothly rounded in the back. The mouth opening measures out to be just shy of a gnats wing... perfect for a miter plane. I'll shoot some shaving pics this weekend (won't get back in the shop until Saturday).

Total construction time on this one is about 10 hours since Monday, but I had already cut a rough sized blank a few months ago for seasoning (hence the small splits at the heel and toe).

Zach

[Leigh Betsch]

Zahid, I was just going to log on a rib you a bit for not getting that plane finished up but I am too late!
I like the style. I know what you mean about the front knob, much more pleasurable to use with one. I don't have a wood lathe any more so I steel knobs off old transitionals when I need one. I'm also in the process of using up some scraps to make my next plane. Usually I spend way too much time trying to find the exact wood, shape, and construction method so this time I'm just going to use some scraps and get building. The center wood comes from a tree I cut down in my grove, been drying for two years, not very good wood but this is kind of an experiment anyway. Attached pic is a preview. There is a hint of the type of plane it will be.

Zack, gotta like that miter plane, looks great.

Stu, keep me on the list!

[Roy Griggs]

Here ya go...225810225811225812A pair of drawer bottom (ala PWW)planes and a couple of low angle planes, the big one is #4 size the little one the size of a block plane. The machine bolt has been replaced with something more appropriate.

[David Weaver]

Back to the question about an infill iron that I said I'd answer - I thought that was in this thread. If I'm wrong, someone can correct me.

STUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

STUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

STUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUART TIERNEY!!

Are you reading?

190 mm long for the single-iron infill irons that I have (I believe they are made by hock, but i don't think anyone could go to hock to get them). They are 1/4th thick, also, or a bit over 6mm.

Longer than I thought, but the length is important because the length of the iron rides on the plane tote (or very close to it, it's bedded lower) on a single iron toted infill smoother.

I got the tsune iron in the mail last night. Didn't get a chance to delacquer it, and flatten the back yet. I was relieved to open the box and find just the iron in it, gets me off the hook for creativity for a while!

[Stuart Tierney]

Back to the question about an infill iron that I said I'd answer - I thought that was in this thread. If I'm wrong, someone can correct me.

STUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

STUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

STUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUART TIERNEY!!

Are you reading?

190 mm long for the single-iron infill irons that I have (I believe they are made by hock, but i don't think anyone could go to hock to get them). They are 1/4th thick, also, or a bit over 6mm.

Longer than I thought, but the length is important because the length of the iron rides on the plane tote (or very close to it, it's bedded lower) on a single iron toted infill smoother.

I got the tsune iron in the mail last night. Didn't get a chance to delacquer it, and flatten the back yet. I was relieved to open the box and find just the iron in it, gets me off the hook for creativity for a while!

You see, that's the thing.

The blade that's been forged, as it is, isn't what I'm after but I know that someone would want it anyway, even at the price it needs to be.

Stu.

[David Weaver]

Well, set them lasers up to cut them longer! :)

Until someone over here starts putting high purity carbon steel onto something soft, I don't know that there's going to be any price point to compare them to.

You can get really big carbon steel irons from hock, maybe custom, I don't know what the terms are there, but I'd imagine they'd be in the ballpark of $100 each (that's a total guess, I don't know what they'd be). The US made custom hock irons are as good as any O1 iron that I've ever seen, perhaps tied with steve knight's old irons (which were too short for infills, anyway). Knight's irons were also exceptionally good O1 irons - like ice.

But blue #1 or Blue #2 done right should beat them for longevity and have an edge as keen or more keen.

[Zahid Naqvi]

Roy, where did you get the irons from. I want to make these but don't have a good source of iron. I used a Stanley 45 recently to make drawer bottom dadoes and the channels were not very crisp, probably because the 45 doesn't have a proper mouth in front of the blade.

Here ya go...A pair of drawer bottom (ala PWW)planes

[Chris Griggs]

Roy, where did you get the irons from. I want to make these but don't have a good source of iron. I used a Stanley 45 recently to make drawer bottom dadoes and the channels were not very crisp, probably because the 45 doesn't have a proper mouth in front of the blade.

I'm the wrong Griggs, but..... Lie-Nielsen sells them in pairs listed as "Grooving Plane Blades". They are listed with their moulding plane blanks (http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?cat=548), which aren't hardened, but these irons are.

[Zahid Naqvi]

$50 for a pair:eek:, maybe I should raid Dowd's and buy some 45 irons and make planes to accommodate the shorter irons. I can get those from Lynn Dowd for $5 a pop. Or maybe I should trade the couple of LV rabbeting plane irons I have with the "grooving plane blades", any takers?

[Chris Griggs]

$50 for a pair:eek:, maybe I should raid Dowd's and buy some 45 irons and make planes to accommodate the shorter irons. I can get those from Lynn Dowd for $5 a pop. Or maybe I should trade the couple of LV rabbeting plane irons I have with the "grooving plane blades", any takers?

Better yet, order some small plow blades from Lee Valley - they're $16.50 a piece( = $33 for a pair) and sold in both left and right handed, so you can still make complementary planes

[Chris Griggs]

Chris, I am visualizing showing your plane to a 14 yr old girl and getting the obligatory "aww! that is so cute" remark. I think this plane has the potential to play the same role a puppy or a toddler play when it comes to attracting the finer gender of homo sapiens.

Ha! I just saw this post Zahid. I already have two cats, a little white curly haired dog, and a beautiful better half, so perhaps I should give the plane to someone less fortunate than myself in those areas.

BTW - Nice work on your plane - I love this thread!

[Leigh Betsch]

Roy, they look great. What is the small block plane iron clamp made of? Looks like wood, if so did you tap the wood or use a threaded insert? Do you see much deflection of the sole with the low bed angle? I built a low angle block plane a while back and got quite a lot of sole deflection. So I made the clamp screw bottom out on the iron when it reached the proper tighness, this way the plane would always 'spring' the same amount, then I just lapped the sole flat with everything tighten up. Been working fine.
I made a new block plane for this thread but I bedded it at 40 bevel down, just so the sole would be thicker and not spring.

[Roy Griggs]

Zahid,
I made mine from a #4 Stanley blade; cut to width with a Dremel and cut-off wheel. A little light grinding to clean-up, being careful about color (heat) near the cutting edge. Simple and CHEAP! The other blades are made from 01.

[Kees Heiden]

Well, set them lasers up to cut them longer! :)

Until someone over here starts putting high purity carbon steel onto something soft, I don't know that there's going to be any price point to compare them to.

You can get really big carbon steel irons from hock, maybe custom, I don't know what the terms are there, but I'd imagine they'd be in the ballpark of $100 each (that's a total guess, I don't know what they'd be). The US made custom hock irons are as good as any O1 iron that I've ever seen, perhaps tied with steve knight's old irons (which were too short for infills, anyway). Knight's irons were also exceptionally good O1 irons - like ice.

But blue #1 or Blue #2 done right should beat them for longevity and have an edge as keen or more keen.

David,

There are some O1 blades for infills overhere: http://www.toolbazaar.co.uk/Spares.asp#1a
They don't mention the length though.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

You can get really big carbon steel irons from hock, maybe custom, I don't know what the terms are there, but I'd imagine they'd be in the ballpark of $100 each (that's a total guess, I don't know what they'd be). The US made custom hock irons are as good as any O1 iron that I've ever seen, perhaps tied with steve knight's old irons (which were too short for infills, anyway). Knight's irons were also exceptionally good O1 irons - like ice.

Doesn't The Best Things sell Hock irons for infills? I don't seem to remember them being 100 bucks a pop, but still a bit expensive.

Those snecked irons on the page Kees linked too are nice looking.

[David Weaver]

Thanks, Kees. The style I'm looking for is like the snecked iron on that page more or less. The two large ones that I have are from Brees (the style at the following link).

http://www.breseplane.com/Plane_Kits.html

Your link does also give me another possible source for a parallel iron for an infill plane that I have.

[David Weaver]

Doesn't The Best Things sell Hock irons for infills? I don't seem to remember them being 100 bucks a pop, but still a bit expensive.

Those snecked irons on the page Kees linked too are nice looking.

They do. I think they're in the neighborhood (for a parallel iron) of $100 for A2 and $70 for high carbon.

$70 is about the price where I'm willing to rough one out myself and file the slot and harden it in the back yard (or I'd have one already). The shepherd kit irons are serviceable but they are not impressive compared to Hock/LN A2 irons.

[Matthew N. Masail]

whats wrong with these in A2 ?
http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=60009&cat=1,41182,43698&ap=1

[David Weaver]

Nothing, actually. They would be a good choice, too.

I wish they were offered in 2, 2 1/4 and 2 1/2 in 1/4" thick, though.

[Leigh Betsch]

I used on of those Lee Valley irons for the infill I made. It's very good blade. Just keep in mind if you want to have an adjustable plane you will need to figure out a way to attach the adjuster. I built a clamping system into the adjuster for mine, but that more machining than most folks have the capability for.

[Kees Heiden]

whats wrong with these in A2 ?
http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=60009&cat=1,41182,43698&ap=1


Too short, not tapered.

Well, when you want to make a free style woodie, no problem in using these. But when you look to making a traditional plane, these irons just don't cut it.
Another source for plane blades is the plane iron shop. http://stores.ebay.co.uk/The-Plane-Iron-Shop
They sell old irons. I bought some single iron ones and of course, they need work, but they are a good choice for not much money.

[Leigh Betsch]

Ok fellers here's my toothing plane. It works OK, pushes harder than I thought it would, I guess because it's bedded at 70*. I think it's tuned pretty well but it is hard to get the exact depth set. Once I get it set it makes some nice spaghetti curls. I also made the iron.

[Klaus Kretschmar]

My shooter is nearly finished now. It came out nice. The downside is, that it doesn't work nice with the vintage blade that was intended to be used. This blade is from an Ulmia jointer and was former combined with a chipbreaker. I thought that it should work without CB as well since it is about 4 mm thick. It doesn't however. The blade chatters cruelly so I owe you some pics showing some shavings until the blade was replaced with a new one. It will get a 1/4" thick A2 blade that Gerd Fritsche will custom make for me.

Some pics so far:

226126226127226128226129226130

Klaus

[Chris Griggs]

Wow Klaus, that is great looking. Just a really cool design! Too bad about the chatter, are you sure its the blade not a bed or wedge issue? Just curios, what kind of trouble shooting you've done. Looking forward to seeing the shaving when you get it totally up and running

[Leigh Betsch]

Very nice Klaus. I knew you'd have something special for us.

[Peter Pedisich]

Klaus,

That is just wonderful; the straight grain, contoured handle/grip, and punctuated by neat strike button. Design is all about balance, and you have struck just the right balance here.
Thanks so much for sharing.

Peter

[Trevor Walsh]

Nice Klaus. The bevels on the topside are really classy. Do you have a side view of the grip/throat and escapement area?