"Knew" at Lee Valley!!! Anybody see this yet? [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

Rob Fisher

02-13-2012, 7:38 PM

James Taglienti

02-13-2012, 8:29 PM

That looks like a nice saw, very stout... Fwiw almost all coping saws have two tabs that with a little dexterity can turn the blade without twisting it. Id like to try one but it would have to beat my jewelers saw by a long shot for me to buy it.

On a different note anyone cut waste with a fein multimaster? I tried it a few months ago and i think with a jig or something it would be awesome

Jim Barrett

02-13-2012, 8:51 PM

What is wrong with a regular jeweler's saw for clearing out waste? I can see a light weight frame for fret sawing where you'll be using the saw for extended periods of time.

Come on George...its all the rage! Get on the bandwagon!! ;)

Jim

george wilson

02-13-2012, 11:20 PM

If I want one,I'll make it!!:) I thought all those saws were titanium. Guess not. If they are just aluminum,no problem ,making one. No problem with the titanium either,except for the price of the blank metal.

Allan Froehlich

02-14-2012, 12:30 AM

I wonder what grade of aluminum was used for that. Also, is it stamped or CNC? I can do both. I'm working out the details on acquiring a CNC mill. Maybe I'll start my own high-end woodworking products company. The only difference is that I will take the Roy Underhill/Norm Abrams attitude and not the Rob Cosman/Tom Cruise attitude.

Bruno Frontera dela Cruz

02-14-2012, 7:24 AM

Have you tried a thin kerf Olson blade? I have never had an issue getting it into the kerf left by my wenzloff early Kenyon DT saw.

Picked one up from Highland a little ways back and I wish I had waited for the 8", but honestly the 6" saw is awesome for clearing out the waste. I could never get a coping saw into the same kerf as the dovetail saw so I'd have to cut it out in two pieces, not with this baby. They make a titanium one too for about 3x the price. A little overkill in opinion. $100 is enough for a saw to clean out waste!

Mike Holbrook

02-14-2012, 8:49 AM

I believe the Knew Concepts Saw is a jeweler's saw, made by a jeweler. As I understand it Derek Cohen helped him with a couple design features that strengthened the bodies and blade tensioning system enough so they are uniquely adaptable to fine woodworking. Derek made some posts, on these pages, detailing his involvement in the development process. I think these saws are, or originally were, made by the jeweler who came up with the idea for a better jeweler's saw. Another words, these are not "mass produced" by some tool company, which of course, runs the production cost up.

David Weaver

02-14-2012, 9:24 AM

I have the aluminum one from when they first came out. I wish I hadn't bought it even though at the time, I think it was about $50 (the new one has more contraptions on it and is heavier, I hear). I suppose there will be some point in the future maybe where I do fretwork and it is nice to use then, but as folks contemplate buying a $200 saw to cut waste out of dovetails, i'm starting to wonder what's next.

I still use a home depot coping saw if I cut waste from between dovetails. I can be as rough as I want to be with it, and in the end it takes about the same amount of time to go right down the middle of a tail with it and then cut across as it does to baby a fretsaw blade.

Am I understanding the history correctly when I recall that the maker had originally intended to make the saw for jewelers and metalworkers? (long before any of the current offerings came about).

If someone was buying it to do fretwork, I would understand. If someone is buying it to do 10 sets of dovetails a year, I don't, despite the fact that I'm sure the new version is more suited to dovetails than the one that I got (which is more delicate as it was intended to be used for fretwork).

Mike Holbrook

02-14-2012, 9:37 AM

Here is some developmental history on Derek's site:

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/KnewConceptsFretsaw.html

Joe Leigh

02-14-2012, 10:24 AM

...... but as folks contemplate buying a $200 saw to cut waste out of dovetails, i'm starting to wonder what's next.

+111111111111111

Jessica Pierce-LaRose

02-14-2012, 10:30 AM

. . . but as folks contemplate buying a $200 saw to cut waste out of dovetails, i'm starting to wonder what's next.

Something from Bridge City? :)

Maurice Ungaro

02-14-2012, 10:33 AM

On a different note anyone cut waste with a fein multimaster? I tried it a few months ago and i think with a jig or something it would be awesome

James, I guess that depends on the blade width, and size of the tails. Sounds interesting, and I'd like to try it myself. What are your thoughts on it?

Sean Hughto

02-14-2012, 10:44 AM

I prefer to chisel out the waste. So maybe we need some super specialized chisels for the task - powdered metal alloys and specially optimized angles for initial chops, intermediate chops, end grain splitting off removal, and final chops. It could be a four piece set. And you'd need a seperate set for each width. Could come in a wall mountable case of 28 chisels. Maybe with some special etching or engraving to make the upper blade easier to grasp and control - and also beautify, of course. All for the low low price of $200 per set.

Bruno Frontera dela Cruz

02-14-2012, 10:49 AM

Then a year later, you could introduce a matched mallet set for each of the specialized chisels to optimize the cut. Issue a press release making everyone bought the chisels feel like they need the mallets to complete the kit.

I prefer to chisel out the waste. So maybe we need some super specialized chisels for the task - powdered metal alloys and specially optimized angles for initial chops, intermediate chops, end grain splitting off removal, and final chops. It could be a four piece set. And you'd need a seperate set for each width. Could come in a wall mountable case of 28 chisels. Maybe with some special etching or engraving to make the upper blade easier to grasp and control - and also beautify, of course. All for the low low price of $200 per set.

David Weaver

02-14-2012, 10:59 AM

Something from Bridge City? :)

Somewhere that brand was swimming around in my head when I said that.
:)

And it's not like I'm innocent of tool excess...so I won't even pretend that I'm ever the voice of reason about doing things cheaply, and backing it up with actions.

I think I was excited about my jewelers saw when I first got it, but brute force in speed with a coarse tooth coping saw has won out over the desire to have a delicate touch. Through dovetails are a brute force speed operation, I think, unless they are very small and/or intended to be exposed (which isn't something I have the desire for).

Chris Griggs

02-14-2012, 11:00 AM

I'll stick with my coping saw with the skip tooth blades from TFWW. Don't care if it fits in the kerf, as I just start at the top of the kerf and cut down at an angle anyway. Yes, this requires a second cut to remove the rest of the waste which literally takes an extra 3 seconds. But really I don't care what that fret saw sells for, I'm very unlikely to buy one, but clearly there is a market and since he is a small independant maker, I'm guessing the his production costs are pretty high and its pretty unlikley that anyones getting gouged.

Sean Richards

02-14-2012, 2:29 PM

If I showed some of the guys (all tradesmen - boat builders, patternmakers, carpenters) I have worked with one of these saws and told them how much it cost they would just about die laughing.

David Weaver

02-14-2012, 3:16 PM

Well, there's definitely a different scale on what's justifiable for the hobbyist vs. someone running a business doing work.

Perhaps justifiable for someone who does a lot of fretwork.

But I've seen jameel's fretwork, and I've seen george doing fretwork on video (ask george if the violins were for show!), I don't know if I've ever seen anyone else doing it, because I don't know any jewelers and the veneer fanatics seem to use scroll saws.

Rob Lee

02-14-2012, 3:23 PM

I don't understand the complaining about the price of this saw. It is a premium tool, no different than a blue spruce chisel or a bad axe saw. None of these tools are cheap compared to other options yet many buy them anyways. Premium tools are just another option for those interested.

By all accounts this saw has a very rigid frame and can tension blades well, in addition the blade can be rotated 45* without having to bend the blade, a nice feature unavailable on any other saw to my knowledg. I don't currently have one of these but I definitely plan on getting one at some point.

Can't agree more!

Don't think of it as a tool - it's a low volume craftsman made product - no different from a chair or a piece of furniture. Someone makes their livelihood making these tools, and they deserve to earn a living.

Yes - you can use something else, make your own, or do it another way. Just like you can make your own chair, buy one from Ikea, or just stand...

Honestly - I don't understand the value/craftsmanship disconnect which always seems to arise when looking at tools like this. The prices reflect the resource and skill that went into the product. Firms like us make less selling product like this, than we do on mass produced tools, yet the implicit assumption always seems to be that someone's making out like a bandit.

Want to become a millionaire manufacturing tools?? Easy... start with $5 million, and go at it....

Off my soapbox now.... :)

Cheers -

Rob
(who'll make more selling painters pyramids in one week than he will selling Knew Concepts saws in a year... )

Jessica Pierce-LaRose

02-14-2012, 3:36 PM

I actually agree with Rob on this, and my Bridge City comment was a little tongue in cheek. Probably in poor taste. There are a lot of BC products that seem silly to me, because I can do the same thing for less money (although others are pretty cool and unique) but I cetainly don't begrudge them the prices they sell at, because I have a pretty good idea of what goes into that sort of work, and the same thing applies to boutique infill smoothers, this fretsaw, custom guitars, etc. I certainly don't think any of these folks are laughing their way to the bank, and I think paying extra for something like this may be more than one needs to spend to get the task done, but you have a thing that you may or may not appreciate on another level, and certainly you're helping to support independent craftsmen or small businesses, which is something that has value to me, even if I can't always do it. I do think the fretsaw is a little extravagant for the sake of simply cutting a few dovetails, as plenty of folks manage to do it with coping saws, chisels, whatever, and I don't think the money vs. time and quality of finished product equation works out for me. But certainly it does for some people or Knew wouldn't bother at all with their woodworking version. I do actually want one of their saws for inlay work, as I've never been happy with using the saws I have for cutting pearl, there's always some little niggle that bothers me.

Whether or not the value proposition works for me in this case or the case of any other boutique item, Im thrilled that LV supports companies like Knew, Wenzloff, Czech Edge and others by carrying their products...

Chris Griggs

02-14-2012, 3:42 PM

Yeah right Rob! Next I bet your going to try to convince me that you can't afford to convert your entire line of planes to nickel-resist ductile iron... We all know your making a killing on your rust proof block plane ;)

(For those who don't understand e-humor the ;) indicates that the above statement was not intended to be taken seriously nor was it "intended to be a factual statement" ) [get it, come on, some of you must watch the Colbert Report... anyone?])

Jim Foster

02-14-2012, 3:44 PM

David Weaver

02-14-2012, 3:45 PM

I think (I hope) most of us realize that you'll make far less selling a craftsman made tool than you will something that can be mass produced. I don't think anyone feels like:
1) The maker of the saws is getting rich
2) Lee Valley is making some large amount of margin or money on these saws

It's more like an issue of whether or not a hand built car like a rolls royce is necessary for the average who needs to go 12 miles to work every day. A low margin for all parties involved doesn't necessarily dictate the level of value to a buyer.

As to Rob's (Fisher) comment comparing precise saws and very precise delicate chisels (that are both presumably being used right to the marking line), that's where the disconnect is for a lot of us. Those tools are used right to the marking line or to make a finished show surface (though probably not the saw for a finished surface). Presumably most people are roughing out dovetail waste with their new fret saws, and that's what's got most of us confused.

By no means would I question the decision to buy a great hand-held fretsaw to do delicate fretwork on jewelry or fretwork on instruments, etc. I just don't follow it at all when it comes to cutting out dovetail waste unless someone is cutting right on the line with the saw.

People read these forum posts, and a lot of people who are wondering what they should buy read these forum posts. I see nothing at all wrong with questioning spending $100 or $200 to remove dovetail waste with a precision tool when you will get to the same place with a $10 tool, or with a chisel that you may already have instead.

I have bought a lot of premium tools from people who have never used them, and they didn't think of themselves as a collector. I think that's a shame unless the money someone spent is totally insignificant.

But regardless of whether or not a craftsman or one of my favorite retailers is offended, I don't think anyone should be barred from discussing whether or not it's reasonable to spend for a precise tool to do imprecise brute force work.

Rob Lee

02-14-2012, 3:55 PM

Yeah right Rob! Next I bet your going to try to convince me that you can't afford to convert your entire line of planes to nickel-resist ductile iron... We all know your making a killing on your rust proof block plane ;)

Truth be told Chris (and I'm delighted you picked that example!) we make more on a $69 Detail Rabbet, than we do on the $295 NX60 .....

However, making a $295 NX60 employs more people than making a $69 Detail Rabbet.

Cheers -

Rob

Jerome Hanby

02-14-2012, 4:03 PM

I think we are overlooking or at least glossing over the three biggest points to this saw...
1) It looks really cool
2) It's RED!!!
3) It's something I've seen Chris Schrawz use that I can actually find/afford to buy

I think I saw or read in his blog something about Mr Scharwz getting similar performance out of a "normal" coping saw after using a hammer to flatten out the set in the blade. That might be something to look into to get the performance with out paying the price. here is a link (http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/chris-schwarz-blog/tweaking-an-over-set-coping-saw). Oops, I was wrong, he filled back the set, not hammered...

David Weaver

02-14-2012, 4:04 PM

I have a cheap coping saw that's pretty miserable to use. So whatever I paid was pretty much a waste of money. If I buy three or four more crappy ones before I find a "good" cheap one, I would have been $$ and sense ahead to buy one "Knew" saw.

Huh? Where are you buying coping saws? You would've been time ahead, but not money ahead unless you're buying hand-made coping saws.

I think the one I use is not quite as nice as this one, but it works awfully well for dovetails, and I've made slug of plane totes and saw handles with it.

http://www.homedepot.com/buy/tools-hardware/hand-tools/buck-bros/6-in-deepcut-coping-saw-114952.html

Chris Griggs

02-14-2012, 4:09 PM

Truth be told Chris (and I'm delighted you picked that example!) we make more on a $69 Detail Rabbet, than we do on the $295 NX60 .....

However, making a $295 NX60 employs more people than making a $69 Detail Rabbet.

Cheers -

Rob

I tend to remember really random bits of information, and one such random bit was that when the NX60 first came out you commented in an interview (I think with Chris Schwarz) that if all you sold was the NX60 you'd go broke.

It is interesting that the NX60 employs more people - is this because of the foundry work involved in making the special alloy?

But regardless of whether or not a craftsman or one of my favorite retailers is offended, I don't think anyone should be barred from discussing whether or not it's reasonable to spend for a precise tool to do imprecise brute force work.

Well said Dave. It's sorta like how I cringe anytime time I see anyone say that they are going to buy a LN #5 (or even a Wood River for that matter) only to put a pronounced camber in it to use as their scrub/fore plane. If that's what someone wants then by all means they should get it (heck I might if I had the extra cash). For the task however, (and I think many others would agree) I would consider it overkill, a waste of precision, and money that would be better spent on something else. (No offense to anyone who uses an LN as their scrub/fore - I said that as diplomatically as I could).

Chris Griggs

02-14-2012, 4:20 PM

Huh? Where are you buying coping saws? You would've been time ahead, but not money ahead unless you're buying hand-made coping saws.

I think the one I use is not quite as nice as this one, but it works awfully well for dovetails, and I've made slug of plane totes and saw handles with it.

http://www.homedepot.com/buy/tools-hardware/hand-tools/buck-bros/6-in-deepcut-coping-saw-114952.html

I used a stanley fatmax for quite a while. It worked fine and good olson blades make all the difference. In addition to dovetails I used it to make a couple saw handles. I recently got an olson. I do like it better than the fatmax, mainley becasue its easier to change and retenion blades. In use its a little better/tighter, but its not worlds apart. At this point I'm just used to coping saws for DTs, and really have no desire to buy any fret saw for any price. If when I first learned to cut DTs I had used a fret saw perhaps the Knew Concepts would be of greater interest.

Rob Lee

02-14-2012, 4:28 PM

(snip)
But regardless of whether or not a craftsman or one of my favorite retailers is offended, I don't think anyone should be barred from discussing whether or not it's reasonable to spend for a precise tool to do imprecise brute force work.

David -

No offense taken here.... and I know you "get it".

I find that the real disconnect is between what we pay for goods and services across a spectrum of areas, not just the internal comparators in the woodworking field. People will pay several thousand dollars for aluminum rims on a car they'll drive for 3-4 years, and begrudge $200 for a tool they'll use for their entire life. Two tanks of gas pays for a Knew Concepts saw... (or 10 beers at a sporting event!). I just paid my phone bill last night... $250 for TV, phone, and internet (for two months)....that money's just gone - not much to show for it either.

The thing with good tools is - they really are an asset that holds value - it's the cheap stuff that's the "expense". There's very little in the way of planned obsolescence in the hand tool world... you may not use the tool, but it will more often than not retain a good portion of its value.

As for "collectors" - there's nothing wrong with that at all, as long as the person derives some sort of value from the purchase... just as someone who buys a well constructed piece of furniture to decorate a formal room they never use does.... :)

I have a hard time looking at something like a quality tool that can last at least one lifetime as being conspicous consumption, or a frivolous expenditure. Not appropriate for everyone - certainly - but I think the real "villain" products are actually the inexpensive ones.

Cheers -

Rob

David Weaver

02-14-2012, 4:38 PM

Well, as far as the planes and chisels go, one only needs to try to make one to get an idea of how much of a bargain a precisely made $250 plane is. (i spent more than that for materials for my infill smoother). And that is obviously a finish surface tool.

And as much as some folks like to complain about the price of premium tools (which doesn't make a lot of sense to me, because there isn't some other inexpensively produced current equivalent, anyway), I saw this watching something this morning that had a comment section. Someone had commented that they knew "tool companies were ripping them off" because a craftsperson in a video recommended buying old stock tools.

....and an old stock tool, like a union #6 for example, was $4.75 in 1905 when the average wage was 22 cents an hour.

Which makes it not look so inexpensive.

And I'm all for holding tools as value, especially if they can be used in the interim, but I have to make some guesses about which tools will be the ones that are worth a lot in the future. Often that's the odd (and low-number) because of being odd, or the exceptionally and timelessly pretty.

Everyone will have to make their own guesses about that, I suppose.

Shaun Mahood

02-14-2012, 4:50 PM

A couple questions about the saw
- Is there any reason to buy the 3" model over the 8" model?
- Can it do everything a coping saw can do?
- Are the 15 tpi skip-tooth blades appropriate for non-dovetail work (on the very ungrounded assumption that someday I will be able to do something like Jameel or George)?

Also, it's amazing how quickly the price disparity between "expensive local" and "cheap but with shipping" can disappear. I work right near Lee Valley, and most of my purchases are decided on at my break time and purchased at lunch time. Everything I want from Tools For Working Wood, once shipping is added, becomes significantly more expensive (somewhere near double the price for holdfasts or saw files). Mill files at LV are cheaper than at 2 of the nearby giant hardware stores, and most books are cheaper at LV than at the nearby giant book stores.

Jack Curtis

02-14-2012, 6:17 PM

...I find that the real disconnect is between what we pay for goods and services across a spectrum of areas, not just the internal comparators in the woodworking field. People will pay several thousand dollars for aluminum rims on a car they'll drive for 3-4 years, and begrudge $200 for a tool they'll use for their entire life. Two tanks of gas pays for a Knew Concepts saw... (or 10 beers at a sporting event!). I just paid my phone bill last night... $250 for TV, phone, and internet (for two months)....that money's just gone - not much to show for it either...

As a society we know the cost of everything and the value of nothing. Knowing the value requires a certain education and some work.

Sean Richards

02-14-2012, 6:23 PM

By no means would I question the decision to buy a great hand-held fretsaw to do delicate fretwork on jewelry or fretwork on instruments, etc. I just don't follow it at all when it comes to cutting out dovetail waste unless someone is cutting right on the line with the saw.

People read these forum posts, and a lot of people who are wondering what they should buy read these forum posts. I see nothing at all wrong with questioning spending $100 or $200 to remove dovetail waste with a precision tool when you will get to the same place with a $10 tool, or with a chisel that you may already have instead.

+1 couldn't have said it better myself.

Danny Burns

02-14-2012, 11:33 PM

Can't agree more!

Yes - you can use something else, make your own, or do it another way. Just like you can make your own chair, buy one from Ikea, or just stand...

Off my soapbox now.... :)

Cheers -

Rob
(who'll make more selling painters pyramids in one week than he will selling Knew Concepts saws in a year... )

Yes I like to save my money so I can spend it on Hacksaws, and Screwdrivers!!!:eek:

http://schoolofwood.com/node/61

"We were even able to get Rob Cosman to try his hand at cutting dovetails with a hacksaw and a screwdriver, he did a great job(big surprise)!"

Maurice Ungaro

02-15-2012, 8:54 AM

Despite my tongue in cheek quote about the price, I have this to say: if you can't stomach the price of a good, or service, then don't buy it. By the same token, don't belittle it either - it's just not for you, that's all.

Ed Looney

02-15-2012, 10:03 AM

This thread has proven to be an interesting read. It is amazing how people change their perspective when they are buying something versus selling something. When a wood worker sells that fine example of had craftsmanship he or she expect to capitalize on effort and skill that it takes to make a hand crafted item. However when the woodworker goes shopping for that fine quality tool we flinch at the cost of fine craftsmanship.

The truth that resolves this issue lies in the old saying that you get what you pay for.

Ed

bob blakeborough

02-15-2012, 10:14 AM

David -

No offense taken here.... and I know you "get it".

I find that the real disconnect is between what we pay for goods and services across a spectrum of areas, not just the internal comparators in the woodworking field. People will pay several thousand dollars for aluminum rims on a car they'll drive for 3-4 years, and begrudge $200 for a tool they'll use for their entire life. Two tanks of gas pays for a Knew Concepts saw... (or 10 beers at a sporting event!). I just paid my phone bill last night... $250 for TV, phone, and internet (for two months)....that money's just gone - not much to show for it either.

Cheers -

Rob

Hey!!! People NEED those wheels or how will anybody else know how cool they are while sitting at a stop light??? That right there is thousands well spent my friend! lol!

Bob (who feeds his family and handtool addiction by selling wheels for a living...) Hahaha!

Sean Hughto

02-15-2012, 10:23 AM

Sean Richards

02-15-2012, 3:07 PM

bob blakeborough

02-15-2012, 3:53 PM

I didn't think people were objecting to the tool or its expense. I thought people were chuckling about the idea of buying such a tool for the purpose of removing dovetail waste. It's funny in the way that buying a $5000 racing bike and only using it to take leisurely rides along the canal path with your kids on weekends or buying a $500 french saucepan and only using to boil water for your hard boiled eggs. There's nothing wrong with the bike or the pan or their cost, but there is a chuckle in people buying the "best" only to never really put them to their use.

That is all so true. But unfortunately it is an all too common (and completely false) viewpoint that you are not going to be able to do an acceptable standard of work unless you have the very best of tools.

Very true that you don't need the best to do great work, but by the same token, you don't need a dovetailed, curly maple step stool that took 30+ hours and $$$ for the wood just to be able to reach the top shelf in your closet when a milk crate will do the job just fine, but we do stuff like that anyways because it is what we like. We appreciate it for what it is...

One of the reasons I always liked this site is because nobody ever seems to say that we HAVE TOO spend tons of money to do a good job or make people feel bad when they don't have lots of money to "waste" on tools, but lately it seems that everybody gets all upset when people do spend more money on premium tools and feels they have to explain why we are stupid for wanting to do it...

It is a bit frustrating in its own right that one must expect to feel shame for indulging when they are capable, especially when those people are doing nothing to make others feel bad...

*EDIT* - Please note I am not trying to say that either person I quoted is behaving poorly at all... Just commenting on the overall vibe I am feeling from this thread in general, and many others like it...

Rob Lee

02-15-2012, 3:59 PM

Hey!!! People NEED those wheels or how will anybody else know how cool they are while sitting at a stop light??? That right there is thousands well spent my friend! lol!

Bob (who feeds his family and handtool addiction by selling wheels for a living...) Hahaha!

Hi Bob -

I have aluminum rims too.....! Next time... I'll use flatscreens or computers as an example.... :)

Just trying to find a comparator that everyone is familiar with - both cost, and longevity....no value judgements!

Cheers -

Rob

David Weaver

02-15-2012, 4:08 PM

Sean Hughto

02-15-2012, 4:12 PM

Bob, I think the stool is a poor analogy. The fancy stool is being used precisely what a stool is intended for - to its full capabilities (unlike the bike, the pan, of the saw in my examples). In addition, it is doing more than the milk crate in that it is more aesthetically pleasing to have in one's home. It is decoration, or even art, as well as stool.

That said, I have lots of tools that I will likely never task to the max or which have much less expensive, and full capable, alternatives. So I suppose I'm laughing at myself plenty too. But that said, I wouldn't feel the need to get the biggest swing, fully loaded Robust lathe to only turn pens - it's just overkill. There's also the hero worship aspect where folks ape tool choices of woodworking personalities slavishly and at any cost - a Cosman hockey tape mallet won't likely make your dovetails any better. But for most of us, this is a hobby - so make yourselves happy!

bob blakeborough

02-15-2012, 4:37 PM

Bob, I think the stool is a poor analogy. The fancy stool is being used precisely what a stool is intended for - to its full capabilities (unlike the bike, the pan, of the saw in my examples). In addition, it is doing more than the milk crate in that it is more aesthetically pleasing to have in one's home. It is decoration, or even art, as well as stool.

I hear you, but maybe I am a bit out of the norm though, where I get all the other aspects you are speaking of beyond just function. I personally love the beauty of my tools... I love the feel of them in my hand... I can go into my shop and pick up a tool, sharpen it, clean it and put it away without having used it and still have enjoyed myself. Heck, sometimes I will just walk into my shop and just handle a nice tool to make myself feel good! I can assign value to a tool that goes further than just using it, which is why I can justify the stool analogy.

I am a freak and I know it... lol

Rob Lee

02-15-2012, 5:04 PM

So, since you're here Rob, I haven't seen you post about your joining the great woodie build-off (see a few threads below). You game?

And don't be slipping something that looks like a wooden tissue box cover over one of those holtey planes and calling it a woodie!!

Hi David -

Well.... I'm not sure I need any more wood planes....
223835

... but I may take a stab at it....

Cheers -

Rob

Rob Lee

02-15-2012, 5:13 PM

So, since you're here Rob, I haven't seen you post about your joining the great woodie build-off (see a few threads below). You game?

(snip)

I call....

:)

David Weaver

02-15-2012, 5:14 PM

Well, after seeing that, I'll feel better about myself when my wife talks about how much shelf space is "wasted" due to tools :)

David Weaver

02-15-2012, 5:14 PM

I call....

:)

and I fold!

bob blakeborough

02-15-2012, 5:15 PM

So when are you bringing that collection to "CALGARY" for sale??? Hmmmmmmmm???

Hi David -

Well.... I'm not sure I need any more wood planes....
223835

... but I may take a stab at it....

Cheers -

Rob

Shaun Mahood

02-15-2012, 5:16 PM

Make a road trip on your fancy wheels!

Rob Lee

02-15-2012, 5:18 PM

So when are you bringing that collection to "CALGARY" for sale??? Hmmmmmmmm???

Ummmm.... Bob......

Ya gotta click on it and check the file name.... :o

Time to excercise some of those rims.... May 12th weekend.

Cheers -

Rob

Leigh Betsch

02-15-2012, 7:59 PM

I kinda like the saw. I'll probably have one some day, not becasue I need it or that will make me a better craftsman or that it makes some sort of financial sense. But simply because I like it.

Roderick Gentry

02-15-2012, 8:22 PM

I just bought one at LV, and appreciate that I could look it over first. The Scarb store rocks. It does have tension way higher than my other saws, and it is also very much lighter. I got the 5", and am happy with it. But it is so light it would be cool to have the 8". I didn't mind the price, I wish I hadn't had to buy the other two along the way. I will use it for dovetail waste, but I certainly prefer to chisel when possible. There are certain cases where it pays to saw, and if the saw really worked well there would be more. With a bad saw, one is chiseling anyway, so it really doesn't pay to do the same job twice. But these things exist to do other kinds of pierced work also.

george wilson

02-15-2012, 9:11 PM

David and I and some others are saying the same thing: I'd buy the fret saw for sawing fine inlay work,but not for just getting rid of waste in dovetails. Actually,I've never used a saw to get rid of waste anyway. I just chisel it out. If you've seen my harpsichord and violin making movie,you will see me chiseling out waste on a row of angular dovetails,making the spinet harpsichord's case.

harry hood

02-16-2012, 1:51 AM

Thank you for posting that Rob, it motivated me to go buy one from you right now (I already have the painter's pyramids by the way).

Roderick Gentry

02-16-2012, 1:59 AM

"It's more like an issue of whether or not a hand built car like a rolls royce is necessary for the average who needs to go 12 miles to work every day. A low margin for all parties involved doesn't necessarily dictate the level of value to a buyer."

I think the question is which is which. The Knew C I just bought from LV is not that fancy a tool, it is relatively workmanlike, not a lot of bling value, I may refinish the handle. It brings huge practical advantages for speed of use, blade tension, and weight in hand relative to sensitivity. So it it bling or engineering. So far I have bought two other fret saws, both earlier LV bests, I think this one will see more use, and allow me to contemplate more uses.

It is hard to make sense of some of the arguments on price. I know in many fields there are people buying over and over cheap stuff. I looked at my bicycle collection a few years back and at the time I had 4 or 5, and none had better parts than LX with a mix of no-name. I could have bought 1-2 of the most expensive custom bikes in america for that, like a Sachs. There are guys out there who have bought every 1000 dollar Surly bike that comes out, but they will rail on whether a slightly more expensive bike should ever be purchased.

I think I was pretty dispassionate with this saw because fret saws do not turn my crank. But I make as many quirky purchases as the next guy rationality is rarely behind any of it. There has to be some date, like maybe 1976, when the last person to buy anything in America for a purely rational reason died. There is some cut-off point. I remember reading an article that said that the K car was really pretty good, but it didn't mater, because Japanese engineers were working on what the exhaust system sounded like. I thought that was pretty cool. But they were tuning a Miyata exhaust to sound like an expensive sports car exhaust sounded like from a time when that was just how the exhaust sounded. Even the little plastic pyramids that are making Rob rich are designed to appeal to a response that sees that as the embodiment of a need. It isn't that there wasn't a way to paint stuff until that came along, there just wasn't a product that made a statement about it.

Brent VanFossen

02-16-2012, 3:31 AM

I know that when I buy things that are important to me, I buy the best that I can afford, and only buy once. Even if all I'm planning for the current project is to cut waste out of the 5-minute dovetails that I'm practicing on, I know that somewhere down the line, I'll have other uses for that saw or chisel or whatever. If it costs me 2 hours of my income, or 20 hours of my income, what does it matter to anyone else if it's worth that much to me?

I remember my first car. The stereo I put in that thing was worth half as much as the car itself. And I wasn't listening to anyone's idea of fine music, but just rock and roll. Go figure. I'd do it again the same way because it was important to me.

Last night I was building cabinets. Tonight it was a water stone holder. Tomorrow I may just walk out to the shop to smell the wood and look at the tools because I enjoy being there, and imagine what I might do with them. I might not even cut the waste out of anything at all. How's that for the waste of a good saw?

I buy fine tools like I buy fine guitars. My Camry has 295,000 miles on it but it runs just fine, because cars aren't of much interest to me. I spend my money on things that are important to me and don't apologize to anyone.

No offense intended to anyone, but I find this whole discussion a little bit funny.

David Weaver

02-16-2012, 8:21 AM

"It's more like an issue of whether or not a hand built car like a rolls royce is necessary for the average who needs to go 12 miles to work every day. A low margin for all parties involved doesn't necessarily dictate the level of value to a buyer."

I think the question is which is which. The Knew C I just bought from LV is not that fancy a tool, it is relatively workmanlike, not a lot of bling value, I may refinish the handle. It brings huge practical advantages for speed of use, blade tension, and weight in hand relative to sensitivity. So it it bling or engineering. So far I have bought two other fret saws, both earlier LV bests, I think this one will see more use, and allow me to contemplate more uses.

For dovetails, when a coping saw with swivels at HD costs $8, then the knew is the rolls royce. I wouldn't necessarily consider a rolls to be better constructed or more finely finished than a lexus, but it is certainly a price multiple.

I have the very first knew (the aluminum). I figure I'll use it until I break it, if I ever do use it (and no, I don't actually think it'll break). I think it's probably stronger than it looks, but the light weight is no advantage to me cutting dovetails unless the material is thin and light. It just means I have to consciously apply a lot of lateral pressure. It is ultimately not as fast as a coarse coping blade, and the coping blade lasts longer and can easily cut things like 7/8" rosewood (the coping blades do eventually snap, too).

The advantages you mentioned are there, but they are advantages for fretwork, not cutting dovetails (unless you break * a lot * of fretsaw blades).

All I'm making a case for is if a user who is buying the saw to cut dovetails is doing so because they saw someone else using the saw to cut dovetails, there are probably better ways to spend money in your shop. If you've been woodworking 10 years or a lot for even 2 years, then you'll know whether or not it's worth it to you.

If you're one of the more typical newbies to this hobby (and this is how I was) and you go through an accumulation phase where you buy everything everyone says you should have, then you're going to waste a lot of money. I wish I wouldn't have bought half the stuff I have, but when I did buy it, I had more money than time, and the stuff I did buy was nice to use. Now that I have time under my belt, and no needs, I'm more inclined to look back with a critical eye toward what I really needed as opposed to stuff that's just sitting on shelves and will eventually need to be moved to a different house or sold (and selling stuff off takes a considerable amount of time, even if you give it away and spend no time on the "sale" of it).

john brenton

02-16-2012, 9:50 AM

I for one, am somebody who would use it for a lot more than cutting out waste...but David W did a great job of articulating the issue. The action in the photo simplifies its operation too much. It's like advertising a premium chisel as a great paint can opener. I think maybe the foto should be showing something else being done, maybe a full spread with masters of intricate scroll work showing the work they did and singing its praises.

I'm sure this plays to the crowd of those who can't quite cut great dovetails and instead of relying on practice figure they need the most premium tool possible, but for everyone on this forum cutting out waste is a rudimentary task that doesn't require a premium tool.

Jason Coen

02-16-2012, 9:51 AM

I've got the titanium KC saw with the Elk Head cocobolo handle.

Can I do something with it I couldn't do with my worn-out Olson coping saw? Heck no.

But I didn't buy it because I was under some false impression that it was some super wonder-tool that would cure warts, freckles, and over-cut baselines. I bought it because I liked the way it felt in my hands, and I wanted a new tool.

Some people like chisels, some like sharpening stones, some like planes. I like saws. I could afford it, and I wanted it, so I bought it. And really, "wanting it" is the only justification needed - to heck with what anyone else thinks. (Which I'm guilty of - I can't help but catch myself think "WTF?" whenever I hear talk of uber-expensive natural Japenese water stones. But if that's what someone else likes, then that's awesome. I'm not going to ridicule what someone else pays for something that they want.)

That said, I love it, and if it was stolen today I'd be on the phone ordering another one tonight.

bob blakeborough

02-16-2012, 9:57 AM

My disappointment runs deep Rob... DEEP I SAY!!!

:mad:

Okay... Not so much really... Now one must put a happy spin on it (other than a bunch of fabulous vintage moulding planes I mean).... ROAD TRIP!!! :p

Ummmm.... Bob......

Ya gotta click on it and check the file name.... :o

Time to excercise some of those rims.... May 12th weekend.

Cheers -

Rob

Jack Curtis

02-16-2012, 10:24 AM

...I'm sure this plays to the crowd of those who can't quite cut great dovetails and instead of relying on practice figure they need the most premium tool possible, but for everyone on this forum cutting out waste is a rudimentary task that doesn't require a premium tool.

I think a lot of people here have spent far more than the cost of the Knew on speciality dovetail waste cutters. Two Blue Spruce chisels, for example.

Derek Cohen

02-16-2012, 11:30 AM

I'm trying to make sense of this thread. I stayed out until now because it just seemed so out-of-character for SMC. However Lee Marshall is a friend of mine and I feel that his integrity is being impuned here. Lee is passionate about the saws he makes. So am I.

The Knew Concepts fretsaw is a damned fine tool. It is not expensive when compared with other similar saws, such as a dovetail saw. I am referring here to the aluminium version - which is the one I would purchase if I were buying. The titanium is never going to be value-for-money, but then I could say the same for a custom infill smoother. That does not mean it is less of a tool, just that it is one for a more discriminating user.

Whether the user chooses to use it only on dovetails rather than fretwork or whatever also does not diminish the value of the saw for its owner - it is just a tool and as long as it gets used to do a specific task, then what is the problem?

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Bench build/Dovetail4.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Bench%20build/Dovetail26.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

David Weaver

02-16-2012, 11:52 AM

I don't think anyone has questioned Lee's integrity. I likely wouldn't make the saw for $95 (as in, it's not something I would consider a way to make lots of money), but that doesn't mean I would buy it (again), either.

It has somehow become unaccpetable for people on woodworking forums to say they wouldn't buy something and don't think it's necessary. I guess it always has been, i've probably been on both sides of it. I really don't understand it, though.

And the many things I've bought that were not necessary (and there are many..many many), I wouldn't be bothered if someone told me and everyone else thinking of buying some of those things that they were not money well spent (even though I feel some of the vendors are stand-up folks to the max).

At the end of the day, people who read forums need to have some confidence in their own decisions, and the ability of the rest of the world to run itself just fine, without having to have unanimous consent, or even consensus. Perhaps one of the biggest problems woodworking for the purposes of discussions like these is that many ways work just fine for just about anything you can think of.

Sean Hughto

02-16-2012, 12:05 PM

In so many things in life you end up acquiring much more than you need in the process of getting what you want. My experience is that at least 20% of the clothes I buy are sort of wasted in one way or another because they don't fit like I had hoped or I quickly dislike the style or find something I like more, etc. Same things happens with food that either spoils before we can eat, or we bought too large a package, etc. It's certainly been my experience with tools - especially there, I buy things to try, adopt new techniques, drift to new sorts of projects, etc. which leaves me with lots of extra tools, as you describe Dave. I agree with everyone who says that buying excellent tools is smart and that using nice tools is fun. I also agree with you that it's worth talking about what's actually necessary for certain tasks.

As for the Knew saws, I had the titanium model's price in my head when I wrote some earlier stuff in this thread. The aluminum model at roughly $100, really does seem like a very fair price and a very nice tool. If I had any need for it, I wouldn't think twice about getting one.

john brenton

02-16-2012, 12:48 PM

No offense to you at all Derek, and certainly no offense to hard working and risk taking people who have brought an innovation to a tool that probably hasn't seen an innovation in decades (if not longer!). You are a far better wood worker than I, and I don't have the guts nor the funds to even dream about producing a tool...so hats off and utmost respect to all concerned...

I do agree that the comments about the price though are not really necessary. We can all decide what is worth it and what isn't. That kind of point is made often here and in other forums. Just the other day we had an old timer groaning about people paying high dollar for water stones, or groaning about premium planes and saws, or someone shows a picture of a workbench in Borneo to show us all what pansies we are...it happens. Sometimes it is constructive, and sometimes it isn't. Sometimes it exposes a worthless gimmick and shows an economy that we never saw before, sometimes it's just somebody wanting to groan about a price and show everybody how ingenious and practical they are.

I understand completely. A relative of mine makes very high quality sleepwear for women, and I know what she goes through to do that, and I know how annoying it is to her when someone picks up the item and complains about the price. The price is what it is...and price is relative.

But, since the cat is out of the bag...well, the cat's out of the bag. I think it's a fine looking saw and I'm sure it performs great. I don't think the price of the tool in itself is the issue. For all the materials, man time, the overheard etc, I'm sure it's a fantastic price. I just personally think that it being touted as the perfect precision tool for an application that really doesn't demand precision doesn't make sense. You could have cut the waste out on those dovetails with a $5 home depot coping saw, and they would have been just as pretty. Your well laid out lines, your dovetail saw, your chisel and your skill made those dovetails pretty...the coping saw's role in that was negligible. You could have cut the waste at half height and caddywhompus and still ended up with nice fitting dovetails.

Leigh Betsch

02-16-2012, 1:25 PM

I have one loaded up in my shopping cart as I type, but before I pull the trigger I gotta ask:
David do you want to sell it?

Chris Griggs

02-16-2012, 1:29 PM

I'm starting to think this conversation (which has been a good one) has run it's course. Also, it seems to me that there really isn't any disagreement among folks on either side. There were a few tongue-in-cheek comments made previously, but I think everyone who made them has posted since and stated that they didn't mean to imply it was a bad tool or a rip off in any way.

So let's sum up shall we.

1) The Knew Concepts Saw is a premium saw at a premium price, that reflects the time, materials, and craftsmanship that went in to it

2) There are other much less expensive tools that will no doubt do the same job for which that tool is currently being marketed

3) Despite No.2 above, there is clearly nothing wrong with someone choosing to spend their money that way - even if it for no other reason than it makes them feel good to use it or even just to support the independent maker who produces it

4) The majority of us have tools that do a job that could be done with a less expensive tool, but the premium tool makes it: Easier, may be better in some cases/for certain tasks, or just makes us feel good to use/own

5) Woodworking/dovetailing newbies should not feel that they "need" to own a premium fret saw to cut good dovetails. There are a number of other great options that will in no way take away from the end result. This applies to many things in woodworking and distinguishing between "need" vs "nice to have" is a valuable distinction to make, especially considering how many people rely on these forums for buying advice. Making this distinction should not be considered an admonishment of the tool itself, the maker, the retailer, or those who choose to buy it

6) Even if there were no practical aspect to owning this saw (and I'm not saying this is the case), people who buy this saw should not feel the need to justify owning it to anyone else (except spouses?). Just as no one should feel the need to justify owning an LN/LV block plane, 12k+ sharpening stone, tormek or other [insert unnecessary but really nice to have tool here]

7) We are all grateful that we have so many high quality tools to choose from and that we live in a part of the world and/or have a standard of living that allows us to indulge in the pleasures of using them and the results they help us produce.

Check, and mate!!!!!

Mike Henderson

02-16-2012, 1:40 PM

Just a question for those who have the Knew - I assume it takes 5" pinless fret saw (or scroll) saw blades. Is that correct? Or does it require the blades with pins?

Mike

David Weaver

02-16-2012, 1:56 PM

The jewelers style saws require blades without pins. The blades are retained by pressure with screws (which works quite well).

john brenton

02-16-2012, 2:43 PM

I nominate this post to go in the sticky section, but substituting the specifics with generalities. Well written, Chris.

Jack Curtis

02-16-2012, 3:11 PM

...That does not mean it is less of a tool, just that it is one for a more discriminating user....

Seriously?

Chris Griggs

02-16-2012, 3:16 PM

I nominate this post to go in the sticky section, but substituting the specifics with generalities. Well written, Chris.

Thanks John!

I second this. But mainly its out of my vain desire to see my name in the sticky section every time I log on :D

Chris Griggs

02-16-2012, 3:22 PM

I nominate this post to go in the sticky section, but substituting the specifics with generalities. Well written, Chris.

Per your request...

1) The [insert new, super cool, expensive tool here] is a premium tool at a premium price, that reflects the time, materials, and craftsmanship that went in to it

2) There are other much less expensive tools that will no doubt do the same job for which that tool is currently being marketed

3) Despite No.2 above, there is clearly nothing wrong with someone choosing to spend their money that way - even if it for no other reason than it makes them feel good to use it or even just to support the independent maker who produces it

4) The majority of us have tools that do a job that could be done with a less expensive tool, but the premium tool.... makes the task easier.... is better in some cases/for certain tasks.... just feels good to use/own ....

5) Woodworking/[insert specific task here] newbies should not feel that they "need" to own a [insert new, super cool, expensive tool here] in order to successfully [insert specific task here]. There are a number of other great options that will in no way take away from the end result. This applies to many things in woodworking and distinguishing between "need" vs "nice to have" is a valuable distinction to make, especially considering how many people rely on these forums for buying advice. Making this distinction should not be considered an admonishment of the tool itself, the maker, the retailer, or those who choose to buy it

6) Even if there were no practical aspect to owning [insert new, super cool, expensive tool here] (and I'm not saying this is the case), people who buy this tool should not feel the need to justify owning it to anyone else (except spouses?). Just as no one should feel the need to justify owning an LN/LV block plane, 12k+ sharpening stone, tormek or [insert other unnecessary but really nice to have tool here]

7) We are all grateful that we have so many high quality tools to choose from and that we live in a part of the world and/or have a standard of living that allows us to indulge in the pleasures of using them and the results they help us produce

Sean Richards

02-16-2012, 3:42 PM

That does not mean it is less of a tool, just that it is one for a more discriminating user.

And in what sense would they be more 'discriminating' ? Would it be a reflection of their refined taste or good judgement?

george wilson

02-16-2012, 4:19 PM

That is what it usually means.:)

Sean Richards

02-16-2012, 4:52 PM

That is what it usually means.:)

Very good George :)

I was more wondering if you needed BOTH refined taste and good judgement or just one of them?

Jack Curtis

02-16-2012, 5:24 PM

Very good George :)

I was more wondering if you needed BOTH refined taste and good judgement or just one of them?

Nah, just a lot of money. Discriminating is marketing code-speak, in the US, for rich.

Roderick Gentry

02-16-2012, 6:20 PM

Discriminating is kinda a bad word, because a discriminating buyer might decide the Aluminum one was better. Titanium is not all it can be thought to be, and some magical thinking seem to go into it. That was certainly the case with the 15 ounce framing hammers. Works in drivers to the extent that people want huge ones. It is nearly twice as heavy and strong as aluminum, which basically means that aluminum is actually more efficient in a lot of apps like this one where simply boosting the Warren truss dimensions 44% would get you twice the strength, and better stiffness (whatever rules you can go for). There would have to be a variety of characteristics that need optimization before it would really make sense. For instance you could nearly double the width of the aluminum one and pick up a lot of torsional stability while staying in the same weight range as the Ti one.

I bought the Al one at LV on Tuesday, so I hope that was discriminating:o.

bob blakeborough

02-16-2012, 9:04 PM

Boy oh boy! I am really quite surprised at the life of this thread! I really had no intention of starting such a discussion when creating this thread, but I am a big fan of civil discussion for sure, and I think in the long run it is all good that comes of it!

john brenton

02-16-2012, 9:19 PM

haha, awesome. now, who's (insert erogenous zone here) do I have to (insert lewd act here) to get this put on a sticky?

Per your request...

1) The [insert new, super cool, expensive tool here] is a premium tool at a premium price, that reflects the time, materials, and craftsmanship that went in to it

2) There are other much less expensive tools that will no doubt do the same job for which that tool is currently being marketed

3) Despite No.2 above, there is clearly nothing wrong with someone choosing to spend their money that way - even if it for no other reason than it makes them feel good to use it or even just to support the independent maker who produces it

4) The majority of us have tools that do a job that could be done with a less expensive tool, but the premium tool.... makes the task easier.... is better in some cases/for certain tasks.... just feels good to use/own ....

5) Woodworking/[insert specific task here] newbies should not feel that they "need" to own a [insert new, super cool, expensive tool here] in order to successfully [insert specific task here]. There are a number of other great options that will in no way take away from the end result. This applies to many things in woodworking and distinguishing between "need" vs "nice to have" is a valuable distinction to make, especially considering how many people rely on these forums for buying advice. Making this distinction should not be considered an admonishment of the tool itself, the maker, the retailer, or those who choose to buy it

6) Even if there were no practical aspect to owning [insert new, super cool, expensive tool here] (and I'm not saying this is the case), people who buy this tool should not feel the need to justify owning it to anyone else (except spouses?). Just as no one should feel the need to justify owning an LN/LV block plane, 12k+ sharpening stone, tormek or [insert other unnecessary but really nice to have tool here]

7) We are all grateful that we have so many high quality tools to choose from and that we live in a part of the world and/or have a standard of living that allows us to indulge in the pleasures of using them and the results they help us produce

Ben West

02-16-2012, 10:06 PM

I hesitate to respond to this thread...so much has been said, I'm not sure I have anything new to add. But I'll try.

I just ordered one from Lee Valley. For me, the decision was easy. Woodworking is my only hobby that I really take seriously. And, I want to get as much pleasure out of my hobby as I possibly can. Part of my enjoyment comes from using tools that make me smile. Sometimes those tools are expensive (like my Japanese paring chisels) and sometimes they are cheap (like my old 20" Powermatic bandsaw that I got for free and restored). My Home Depot coping saw works just fine, but it doesn't add pleasure to my woodworking hobby. The Knew Concepts saw will do that, if for no other reason than it was made by a US craftsman whose passion for making the tool matches mine in using it. For all that, $95 is a bargain to me.

Derek Cohen

02-16-2012, 11:23 PM

dis·crim·i·nat·ing(dhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ibreve.gif-skrhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ibreve.gifmhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gifhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/schwa.gif-nhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/amacr.gifhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/lprime.gifthttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ibreve.gifng)adj.1.a. Able to recognize or draw fine distinctions; perceptive.
b. Showing careful judgment or fine taste: a discriminating collector of rare books; a dish for the discriminating palate.

Using "discriminating" is simply to indicate that there is a reason why some prefer a more expensive version of a tool. There are so many possibilities why. It is not a issue worth pursuing. Perhaps writing at 1:00 a.m. is not a good time to be eloquent! :)

I don't think the price of the tool in itself is the issue. For all the materials, man time, the overheard etc, I'm sure it's a fantastic price. I just personally think that it being touted as the perfect precision tool for an application that really doesn't demand precision doesn't make sense. You could have cut the waste out on those dovetails with a $5 home depot coping saw, and they would have been just as pretty. Your well laid out lines, your dovetail saw, your chisel and your skill made those dovetails pretty...the coping saw's role in that was negligible. You could have cut the waste at half height and caddywhompus and still ended up with nice fitting dovetails.

I would like to comment here. I have confidence in my dovetailing skills and believe that the tool is not an important factor in the outcome at this stage of my woodworking development. I could remove the waste in any number of ways or methods, and do at times. However I prefer to use a tool that affords me pleasure and confidence in the tool itself (and not just my skills). The reason why the KC woodworker's fretsaw came into existence was to develop a saw that cut dovetail baselines with greater ease and reliability (i.e. no wandering of the saw blade and no more snapping of blades). This translates into greater precision in my langauge.

Yes, there are many who will balk at the cost of some tools because of affordability, while others are more fortunate and have a wider range of options. My feeling about this thread was that the cost of the KC was turning into an indictment of the tool itself, and was the reason I responded as I did.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Sean Richards

02-17-2012, 3:51 AM

Yes, there are many who will balk at the cost of some tools because of affordability, while others are more fortunate and have a wider range of options

Derek, I am sure that the saw that was originally the topic of this thread (and I don't think it has actually been the topic for a while) is a superb tool. However I balk at the cost of some Rolls Royce tools based purely on my own personal cost-benefit threshold - my disposable income is not usually a limiting factor. On careful reading of your post you seem to be implying that many of the comments in this thread regarding the aforementioned Rolls Royce tools are sour grapes due to people not being able to afford them - I know for me personally that is not the case and in general I don't think it is.

I sort of wished I had never bothered posting to this thread as I usually keep my opinions to myself - occasionally share them with the dog.

Jim R Edwards

02-17-2012, 6:59 AM

I certainly do not take any offense to your post however I have a different opinion on LN (or any other quality tool maker) number 5 or 6. In my opinion a 5 and/or 6 is one of the most important planes used for woodworking and I would rather have a quality tool that does the brunt of the work as opposed to a 10 dollar Stanley #5 or 6.

I use a jack plane for 90 percent of all my woodworking task and a smoother for about 2 percent. I prefer to spend my money on a jack.

David Weaver

02-17-2012, 7:35 AM

Presumably you are using your 5 after machine dimensioning wood then?

If I were going to use a 5 like that, I probably wouldn't mind spending for the LN to do that work. It's flat, you don't even have to think about whether or not it will be precise, the adjustment is nice and the iron is good.

For jack/fore plane type work, though, I'd rather have a stanley (without even considering cost) - it's lighter.

Everyone has different perspectives, which is good, because it makes stuff like a $100 and $200 fretsaw with a quick release blade available for people who want that.

I slipped down to the shop last night before I went to bed and gave the knew concepts jeweler saw that I have another rip. Tensioned it tight and cut two fake really tight tails (something I wouldn't normally use in a joint) in a junk board, and after the first one, thought "wow, that was kind of nice", and then after the second one, the blade I had in the saw pinged into two pieces - and I remembered why I like to use a coping saw.

Leigh Betsch

02-17-2012, 8:16 AM

I don't see the need for this to be a "sticky". In the end is all a bunch of philosophical mumbo jumbo and not much on neandering. Not even a review of the saw. Don't get me wrong it's an interesting thread and well deserving of a read, or comment, but in my opinion not "sticky" worthily. But maybe I don't have the ability to discriminate sticky worthy mumbo jumbo from everyday mumbo jumbo.:rolleyes:

Dave the offer is still open to buy that saw that you don't like.

David Weaver

02-17-2012, 1:41 PM

Leigh, the jeweler's saw? They're only $49, which I think is how much my saw was when I got it. Might've even been a few bucks cheaper.

http://www.knewconcepts.com/5-inch.php

I think if you want to do jewelry, then it'd be OK. if you want to do dovetails, then you should get one of the woodworking saw because the blade clamps or whatever you'd call the fasteners that hold the blade on mine will not take the bigger fretsaw blades with a lower count of skip teeth, they don't fit in the diameter of the holes in the end of it.

I don't know if I will ever do any delicate fretwork, but I'll set it aside in case I do - it will be nice for that. If they made a woodworking version of the same thing for $50 without the swivel blade clamps and the cam quick release (things you really don't need at all to...well, really to do anything woodworking), then I think it would be nice for people who don't want those options and who are price buyers.

If you're getting into delicate fretwork and you'd want it for that, knowing it will only take the light blades, send me a PM.

In case anyone is wondering why I would get the jeweler's saw, when I got this, there was a jeweler's version or no version and derek and some other folks, if I recall correctly, were working through details with Lee to make the woodworker's version.

James Taglienti

02-17-2012, 2:29 PM

Maybe someone can start a different thread, like vintage Stanley VS Lie Nielsen, so we can have the same exact argument about a different kind of tool... or we could just cut and paste them into this thread and then we could save ourselves the trouble.

This is what happens when so much time and energy are poured into a wealthy hobby market- people scramble to serve it. We get awesome tools, we get gimmicks, we get lavish infill planes, $200 centerscribes, magnetic dovetail saw guides, and chisels with disposable tips. I used to stress about it but now I just dont care- I buy what I think I need (off the hayrack at Bradley's Auction Service) and you call Bridge City- who cares!

This thread has been great, but its the same argument AGAIN

Leigh Betsch

02-17-2012, 2:55 PM

Leigh, the jeweler's saw?

Oh, Gods that will never do! I gotta have all the bells, whistles and the gizmos!
Now I understand why it's not up to glass smooth dovetails.

Just jerking your chain here David. I do have one in my shopping cart though, plan to pull the trigger once I get the rest of my order together.

David Weaver

02-17-2012, 3:13 PM

I kind of like it better without the gizmos (plus I like the price), just wish it held the bigger blades. Maybe I'll drill the holes out a bit (presuming after a look at it, that there's enough thread for the setscrew to do that).

I have to admit that I compared the zona saw and was able to get an awful lot of tension with the zona saw (and way more than I'd ever need to have) after scuffing the surfaces on the zona spine that are held by screws (the zona saw looks an awful lot like Rob C's saw but with no tape, and it's made in the US whereas I think a lot of the same design are made in germany).

I do like the zona's design, you just plop the blade in the ends and fasten the ends, put the butt of the spine one the bench and just lean your weight on the frame and tighten the screw on the spine. You instantly get however much tension you want just by deciding how hard you lean on it before you set the screw. I do believe I could probably break a thin blade just tensioning it that way, without even ever putting it to a cut.

Chris Griggs

02-17-2012, 3:16 PM

This thread has been great, but its the same argument AGAIN

...and it's only February! I think were on track to beat last years record! Of course we will never top the record from the year Woodriver planes first hit the market - I still get the shudders....:eek:

David Weaver

02-17-2012, 3:24 PM

Dangerous to bring that up, it might start things up about that again -we don't need that! (though it is entertaining to see some of the absolutism that comes out of it).

Jim R Edwards

02-17-2012, 9:52 PM

I use my jack with rough lumber and demensioned lumber. I think I go against the conventional wisdom of how certain hand planes are suppose to be used. My jack happens to be a bevel up plane and I use it as a rough plane, small jointer, shooting plane, and a smoother. If I didn't have this plane I would buy a LN #5. I was using one today and it is absolutely wonderful to use and feels great in my hand. It's heavy, which I like for roughing up lumber. The weight of the plane seems to plow easier threw the wood.

I like the jack plane for its versatility. I have a blade with a camber that will flatten a board in no time, swap out the blade, close the mouth and it smooths and flattens the board and most of the time leaves a finish just as good as a smoother. A Ln #5 will do the same thing with an extra blade and 55 degree frog. I don't think a smoother is nearly as versatile. My smoothers were the last premium planes I bought and will be the first ones I sell if for some reason I had to.

I understand that a lot of people would not buy a premium jack plane and that is fine with me! Makes them easier to get!

Derek Cohen

02-17-2012, 10:33 PM

I don't think anyone has questioned Lee's integrity.

Hi David

My apology for not replying earlier than now.

I don't think anyone was doing so, not directly at any rate. And I know you would not intensionally do so either - I hold you in the highest esteem. You speak your mind and almost all the time we share the same views - often its uncanny. There is a fine line between a tool and its designer/manufacturer, and comments here were edging too close .. which was when I felt the need to speak up.

My view on tools are that - ideally ...

(1) they need to do the job (have function)

(2) they need to be ergonomic

(3) they need to have pleasing form

Cost is not a factor here, but not unexpectedly, #3 is typically associated with the "premium" end of the spectrum. It does not have to be so. Actually, in the case of the KC fretsaw, the costs go to #1, where I do think it does the job better than the opposition owing to materials and design. (A lot of thought went into the design - including the blade holding adjustment. It is a unique design for a fretsaw). However this does not mean that "better" is the only way to go. It just is so for some. Others have different priorities. Each to their own.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Jim Neeley

02-17-2012, 10:57 PM

Very true that you don't need the best to do great work, but by the same token, you don't need a dovetailed, curly maple step stool that took 30+ hours and $$$ for the wood just to be able to reach the top shelf in your closet when a milk crate will do the job just fine, but we do stuff like that anyways because it is what we like. We appreciate it for what it is...

One of the reasons I always liked this site is because nobody ever seems to say that we HAVE TOO spend tons of money to do a good job or make people feel bad when they don't have lots of money to "waste" on tools, but lately it seems that everybody gets all upset when people do spend more money on premium tools and feels they have to explain why we are stupid for wanting to do it...

It is a bit frustrating in its own right that one must expect to feel shame for indulging when they are capable, especially when those people are doing nothing to make others feel bad...

*EDIT* - Please note I am not trying to say that either person I quoted is behaving poorly at all... Just commenting on the overall vibe I am feeling from this thread in general, and many others like it...

+1, sadly...

Ed Looney

02-17-2012, 11:16 PM

Perhaps we need to get to the real issue. Why is it that some people think they get to say, frown upon or disparage how other people spend their money? If a person earns money it belongs to them it is their property to use as they see fit. What other people choose to do with their property is really none of anyone's business. If a person thinks any tool is too expensive then don't buy it and find a cheaper substitute. Heck forget about that expensive tape measure and find a local supplier that sells the stick and string measuring device the ancient Egyptians used. The cheaper substitute worked for centuries so anyone who buys a tape measure is wasting their money aren't they. Should I keep going or mind my own business and let people spend what they earn like they darn well please?

Ed Looney

Sean Richards

02-17-2012, 11:59 PM

Its a public forum - people have differing views and opinions and are entitled to voice them. That is sort of the point of it isn't it?

Jim Neeley

02-18-2012, 2:11 AM

Entitled.. hmmm...

For someone to come on here and disparage people who haven't graduated from college as stupid, disparage people who aren't earning $250,000+ as stupid, or disparage someone because of the color of their skin may be a *right*, but it shows horrible taste and a total lack of class, in my opinion.

Such is the same of anyone who disparages others here whether they are woodworking on a shoestring (because it's what they want or can afford) or buying only custom-made infill planes (because it's what they want and can afford).

This thread is not without value. There's (in my opinion) good advice about not *needing* to buy every gizmo and gadget out there and not *needing* to buy $5,000 custom-made planes to do good woodworking. It's when we disparage others who *choose* to do any of the above that it drags the community downward.

Again, my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

Jim

Shawn Russell

02-18-2012, 5:30 AM

Just had to add.. I worked with Lee @WIA in 2010.. Lee is a great guy who put a lot of effort into this saw. And, no he is certainly not getting rich selling this saw or any of the jewelry saws he sells. He is a one man shop trying to take care of a very sick wife and doing as much as he can to make a top notch tool.

I won't even bother to comment on the price of the tool.. if anyone owns a home or drives a car, is that 'tool' worth the price you paid for it? I just leave it at to each his own. What I will defend is the guy making the tool.

Joe Leigh

02-18-2012, 9:22 AM

Defend him from what? Who's attacking him?? And what does his wife have to do with this thread???

Boy this forum is getting tough to read lately. If its not some guy tooting his own horn all over the place its another making racial analogies in a fret saw thread...geeze...

Besides, what does it matter what a "great guy" the maker is? Rob Lee sounds like a decent guy but that had nothing to do with my BU Low angle Jack purchase.

I think we need to focus less on what goes into our shop and more on what comes out of it.

Steven Lee, NC

02-18-2012, 10:17 AM

http://www.talkfestool.com/vb/knew-concepts/3779-titanium-fretsaw-arrival-2.html

this is definitely on my order list next time I order from Lee Valley. Well, the aluminum one, the titanium one just isn't as pretty :p

george wilson

02-18-2012, 12:39 PM

Actually,nearly all of the posts I have ever put up have been about things that came out of my shop. I have always made the posts educational,describing how the work was done and encouraging others to make tools.I know my posts have helped some people,like Stewie,to gain ground in their work. I don't think Stewie would mind me mentioning his name. He has gained by huge leaps and bounds. So have some others.

I cannot recall once mentioned anything about how beautiful my work might be,or claimed any artistic merit. It's been presented as educational. And,yes,I do want to know if others are learning from or enjoying these posts.

I have always encouraged others to post pictures of their work.

It has made this forum more interesting to a number of people,and I think it must be better than 8 pages of debate on buying,or not buying a fret saw,or endless debate on sharpening your tools.

If this has offended Joe,I am sorry. This is the 2nd time he has mentioned me. I've always been a teacher. I taught shop and drafting for 6 years before being picked up by Wmsbg.. Then,I taught apprentices. I try to teach here.

I am not the one who pulls up old posts . It apparently takes up too much space. If someone else does so to ask a question,he will get an answer from me. Especially now that the plane build off has gotten going.

If a forum becomes such that it is not good for blood pressure,or otherwise detrimental to well being,the only logical thing to do is to read elsewhere. What else can you do?

Hopefully,this reply is gentle enough to be acceptable to the forum.

bob blakeborough

02-18-2012, 12:47 PM

Holy Mackerel!!! 8 pages and 109 (now 110) posts! All from a thread started about noticing Lee Valley now carries Knew Concepts...

If there was an award for making a tidal wave from a ripple I think I would have a shot!

For real though, I am really surprised at how far this discussion has gotten based on the very simple beginning. I had ZERO intention of this being a ideological debate of the merits of waste vs want. Nobody could ever accuse us of not being a passionate bunch hey???

If anything, at least Rob and Lee are getting a bit of advertising mileage out of all this...

And George... Your threads rock!!! Please never stop...

george wilson

02-18-2012, 2:12 PM

I have re read-scanned-these 8 pages. Where did I miss the posts calling people stupid,racial remarks,etc.? Maybe I didn't read thoroughly enough? it is hard to focus on 8 pages about something I don't find particularly interesting? I'd buy the saw for inlay work,not for sawing out dovetail waste. I went to college,but never made $250,000 a year,for sure.

David Weaver

02-18-2012, 2:36 PM

If its not some guy tooting his own horn...

Who toots their horn? If anything, this forum has little of it. And thankfully, the practice of setting up a blog and then constantly going to a forum to generate traffic by leaving a post to say "hey, i put a new post on my blog, you have to read it!!" is not allowed.

If there's any issue at all, it's that this board tends to go back toward talking about sharpening stones and plane irons if there isn't enough good content coming up.

Sean Richards

02-18-2012, 3:04 PM

george wilson

02-18-2012, 3:23 PM

Do Klaus and Pedder toot their own horns? Toot away,I love their pictures. And,if you don't think they know they are extremely good,you must be wearing blinders!! They are inspirational. Do the guys who do T.V. shows about woodworking toot their own horns? Toot away. They are entertaining(a LOT more so than those 2 shows about guns that have started lately. And,I am a shooter.)

Sean Richards

02-18-2012, 3:57 PM

George keep on posting - I love your pictures they are inspirational.

Jim Neeley

02-18-2012, 5:44 PM

"That is pretty strong stuff Jim and your racist analogy is rather repugnant."

re·pug·nant/riˈpəgnənt/
Adjective:
1.Extremely distasteful; unacceptable.
2.In conflict with; incompatible with.

Some find my racist analogy repugnant according to definition #1, yet mention nothing of the financial analogy being repugnant.

To repeat and expand, I find disparaging someone over race, wealth (or lack thereof), religion, skin color, language they speak or preference for self made*, old Stanley, LV, L-N or custom-made infill planes repugnant. Thus I feel it a fitting analogy and IMO definition #2 does not apply.

The analogy being made is based on disparaging others whose features or actions have in no way broken any laws or infringed on others rights.

YMMV.

Jim

* While I have never used or made a wooden plane, I'm *really* looking forward to the plane build-off!!! <g>

Wes Grass

02-18-2012, 7:30 PM

Hmm ... oh well, why not ...

I kinda think if there weren't people, and I'm one of them, willing to spend the money on premium products that don't do anything a cheaper one will, that there won't be anything but cheap stuff left in the world for anyone to buy. And I think that would be a shame.

On a lighter note, you can see one of these in action in a really nice video of Romero Banjos on the Fretboard Journal site.

george wilson

02-18-2012, 8:10 PM

Well,I WAS using my fancy schmancy all polished Veritas block plane today,being VERY careful to HOLD ON to it !!

Bob Strawn

02-18-2012, 8:21 PM

I play around and make the majority of my own tools. A lot of them are my own inventions so I have a very good idea of what goes into something like this saw. I am cheap, cheap, cheap, but I also have a very good idea of the value of this saw.

It would be easy enough to make a turning saw with a cam lever to tension it, that could hold a blade by clamping it. So the basics of this saw are far from difficult to match. Except for the most basic things of all. Weight and stiffness are king when it comes to the jewelry saw.

A light saw means less effort, so you have more focus and control. A tired hand is a sloppy hand. A really stiff and stable jewelry or fret saw for fine sawing is like having a heavy and stable workbench for planing. A typical jewelry saw is more like a card table. The blade bends because the arm gives. A bent blade breaks. The over tight blade that bends will break, skip, twist and take twice as much work and concentration to do half the job half - ***. Even with a gentle hand, a stiff saw is amazingly better. As it is the best way to protect a blade is often to over tighten it. The sloppier the saw the more tension you need. So, while I cannot afford it right now, in a few months if no horrid expenses show up, I will be buying one of these. In the long run it will save me time, money and frustration.

Bob

george wilson

02-18-2012, 8:47 PM

We used to have trouble with jeweler's saw blades just being too hard. Hercules were like that. A journeyman asked me what could be done about his breaking blades(he knew how to saw,wasn't him). I took a roll of them and put them on top of the guitar side bending iron,whose egg shaped chimney was wide enough to take the whole length of the blades. I carefully watched until the blades turned from medium brown to blue. Then,they were fine for sawing wood.

Dave Anderson NH

02-19-2012, 9:08 AM

I am not going to close this thread because people have generally been polite in their disagreements. I will however admit to some of the angst that others have expressed about beating a dead horse. Personally, to me everyone makes their own choices and such abbreviations usch as "YMMV" mean exactly that your mileage may vary. Each of us comes to this hobby both for different reasons and from a slightly or widely varying vantage point. What is right for one can easily be anethma to another and yet each viewpoint is either right or wrong for a particular reason known only to each person. Tool choices are personal and nothing will ever change that. Lets move on to something else. Geesh, 5 pages?

David Weaver

02-19-2012, 10:04 AM

I am not going to close this thread because people have generally been polite in their disagreements.

Dave, you have no idea how much a lot of us appreciate your moderating efforts, because of statements just like the above.

Folks may say they think this thread isn't interesting, but we learn directly and indirectly about a lot of things in a thread like this, and sometimes even after a few five round salvos (as in five identical posts) have been fired by some folks back and forth, something really useful to everyone else gets said.

If the thread gets buried, then everyone is afraid to even bring up the topic and nobody learns anything. Not how we can resolve differences in opinion (or let them remain as such), and not anything about the topic to begin with.

Peter Hawser

02-19-2012, 9:59 PM

george wilson

02-19-2012, 11:19 PM

The millwork shop bought one of those multi fingered fences on their shaper. Cost big bucks,too. I had to re machine the thing because the infeed and outfeed fences were not properly aligned. You might not be missing out on too much without that fence. For the price,you'd think it would be accurately made.

David Weaver

02-20-2012, 7:47 AM

I remember seeing this video/article by CS about a surgeon who built an amazing shop - http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/chris-schwarz-blog/european-dreaming-a-visit-to-kent-adkinss-shop

CS closed the thread due to all the posts with jealousy/envy based replies (all deleted now).

That's a nice shop! I've never used the martin stuff, but I've seen a bunch of it close up. It is really fantastic stuff.

Not the kind of shop maybe a lot of us on this side of the board would want, but still nice nonetheless!

Jessica Pierce-LaRose

02-20-2012, 9:54 AM

Honestly, if I had a shop of that caliber, I might not mind using power tools as much; although I still think the bandsaw might be the only thing in that I'd use regularly. That said, when I saw that video, the thing that immediately jumped to me is regardless of the tools in that shop, I want that space. His shop is bigger (and nicer) than my whole house!

David Weaver

02-20-2012, 10:17 AM

If you've ever seen a live demo of a martin machine by a martin rep (who knows how to use it), you wouldn't mind using one at all, I can assure you of that.

The trick is to afford the machines and to afford to be able to build a good stable and open space to use them.

The precision version of the sliding table saw with the touch screen is otherworldy. Every cut you want to make, the machine adjusts its parts itself (tilt, height, width of the scoring blade, etc), and confirms the readout on the screen and shows you a visual of the cut (if I'm remembering correctly). If you want an 8 foot sliding dovetail (dont' know why you'd want that, but just a for example type of thing), you dial it up on the screen and the machine will cut it with the TS blade without changing anything, both tilt directions, and the picture on the screen shows you where the saw is adjusted and what the progress of the cut is.

Jack Curtis

02-20-2012, 10:28 AM

...If you want an 8 foot sliding dovetail (dont' know why you'd want that, but just a for example type of thing), you dial it up on the screen and the machine will cut it with the TS blade without changing anything, both tilt directions, and the picture on the screen shows you where the saw is adjusted and what the progress of the cut is.

I'm not at all jealous of this guy's shop or machines. See, I just don't see how working on a production line equates to fun. I also don't begrudge this surgeon his money or machines, at least it's a case of trickle down working to a certain extent. In this time, when any old man who can do two things well is labelled a renaissance man as if he were Leonardo....

Or, as my girl Janet asks, what do you call women who can do 10 things with aplomb and elegance? Certainly not renaissance women, since that's no compliment. Certainly not renaissance men, as that would be inaccurate. So, what?

george wilson

02-20-2012, 10:28 AM

David:That automatic saw sounds like it would take all of the fun out of woodworking,though if you are making money with the shop,it would be a help.

Well,I hit 71 today!!

Jack Curtis

02-20-2012, 10:30 AM

...Well,I hit 71 today!!

Well, felice navidad to you. Will you be celebrating?

Charlie Stanford

02-20-2012, 10:33 AM

Looks like Rob has added another great tool to his ever growing stable of premium products!

http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=69090&cat=51&ap=1

http://www.leevalley.com/en/images/item/Woodworking/Saws/02T1041s01.jpg

Well, surely this must be a 'jump the shark' moment for hand tool woodworking when *mostly* everybody is salivating over a tricked up $100 coping saw.

I actually thought this was one of Lee Valley's spoofs but it's not April Fool's Day. Some sort of fools day apparently, just not April's.

george wilson

02-20-2012, 10:36 AM

Thank you Jack. My wife is sick,and I'm not sure if 71 is worth celebrating!!!!:):):) Well,considering the alternative.......

David Weaver

02-20-2012, 10:50 AM

Jack, it's definitely not assembly line working. It's more like one off manufacturing.

I worked in a cabinet factory that did truly have assembly line manufacturing, at least sub assemblies (doors, face frames, finishing), and assembly of the final cabinets was in a line where we put together 70 an hour on each line, with 5 lines running. They were far beyond the production rates of the martin type equipment where the parts for everything was cut using CNC machinery, even 20 years ago. Basically, the orders came into a computer system, and the system printed ticket orders and simultaneously sent the order stacks around the factory (i.e., everything in the entire place was made in the same order) to the different areas. If there were 30 48 inch long vanities in an order, then panels, etc, were fed into a CNC production machine on rollers, trimmed in stacks and came out the other side in a couple of minutes for all of the sides and backs, same for the face frame parts, etc.

The martin stuff is more one-off kind of stuff, to work materials to strict tolerance on the first try. If you ever felt like you wanted to put a piece of material into a machine and get exactly what you expected out of it every single time to perfect spec, it's that kind of machine. Perhaps it would download order specs from an ordering system, but you still wouldn't want to do high volume work with it.

If I was into the power tool ideal to do one-off project work where you could make the dimensioning more efficient and to a work order or computer program listing, that would be the pinnacle of tooling from what I've seen.

I think I would get bored with it, like george says. But if you knew how to use it and had to make a kitchen full of cabinets dead on spec first try and far above the quality of fit you would get on anything purchased, it would be really useful. Especially if someone else bought it and you got to use it!