Restaurant table tops - long

[Bruce Darrow]

Hi folks,

Long post – bear with me here.

I am about to embark on phase 2 of correcting a long standing problem. My employer has a restaurant (several, actually) that has faux antique cherry table tops – perhaps 30 of them, ranging from 24 x 36 up to 48 x 72 and 72” round. The tops are 1 ¼ solid birch or maple – not sure, as I haven’t taken any of them down to bare wood, but my guess, considering the overall quality, would be soft maple. They are then smeared with someone’s idea of an antique cherry stain, and sprayed with some cheap clear finish.

The finish began failing the first season the restaurant was open, leaving white chips, scratches along failure cracks, and other blemishes:

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Additionally, they suffer from abuse from those darling little dears of today’s negligent parents – I subject I could easily rant on in another post…….:


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I was tasked to fix this. I did the best I could with my limited finishing skills, limited shop space (with no finishing room), furniture polish silicon contamination, and limited time frame – the restaurant’s “shut-down” time. I chose to use Waterlox, thinking that it would be easier to repair again down the road than a polyurethane. My first few I tried to achieve a satin finish, following directions, but was unhappy with the results – couldn’t keep brush strokes out of the finish, so I ended up sticking with the Original formulation for all the rest. I didn’t try to strip/sand to bare wood, not being confident I could get a close enough color match to surrounding tables. Instead, I tried several different blemish repair techniques – dye markers, wax crayons, and colored lacquer, custom mixed and applied with artist’s brushes. The crayons were useless (in this application, at least), the markers were of only very limited utility, and not at all on the bare wood chips and scratches. I never got the hang of getting a good color match with the lacquer repair kit, and had to settle for “darker is better than lighter”. As for leveling the lacquer repairs, I consistently went right through them to white wood again, so I ended up leaving them proud, and running the Waterlox over them.


Other than blemish repair, I learned about solvent and detergent washes followed by shellac to combat silicon contamination, and I learned a lot about Waterlox – slow curing times, jelling in the can, etc.


Despite all my frustrations, I got through about ¾ of the tables, and some of them came out acceptably for the setting:


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Others did not:


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I am assuming that this was the result of putting the table into use before the Waterlox had time to fully cure.


The powers that be have finally, after repeating myself until I was blue in the face, come to accept that dense white wood, under a dark finish, given the usage (and ab-usage), will never stay acceptably attractive. I have been given the go ahead to do a replacement top in stained/dyed cherry (we also discussed walnut and mahogany) as a test with an eye to eventual replacement of all the tops.


Now to my questions:


1) In a commercial application such as this, would polyurethane be a better choice than varnish? Or would a different varnish be a better choice than Waterlox – Behlen’s Rock Hard, or P&L, or other? Given the abuse these tables take, repairability will still be an issue down the road – both the underlying coloration and the clear film topcoat.
2) Will a thicker film (more than 2 or 3 coats over a shellac washcoat and a probable gel stain glaze) add blemish protection, or will it just make the blemish craters that much deeper?
3) I am assuming that the cherry, once it gets scratched into the bare wood, will be easier than maple/birch to recolor to a close match – yes/no/maybe?
4) Will a strong dye, as an initial coat of color, penetrate deeply enough to help with question #3, and if so, how best to go about getting a strong dye onto a large bare cherry surface without severe blotching? I will admit to having limited success with dyes thus far……


Just for information’s sake, this is the “look” they want to maintain:


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Therefore, they don’t want to protect the tables with either glass or hide them with tablecloths.


Thanks in advance,


Bruce

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Those tops look pretty good. I am very surprised about the water rings. Resistance to the rings is one of the stated advantages to Waterlox. The tops were not waxed were they?

[Scott Holmes]

Bruce,

Here's my take on the following:

Now to my questions:


1) In a commercial application such as this, would polyurethane be a better choice than varnish? Or would a different varnish be a better choice than Waterlox – Behlen’s Rock Hard, or P&L, or other? Given the abuse these tables take, repairability will still be an issue down the road – both the underlying coloration and the clear film topcoat.
Poly is a type of varnish not a class of finish by itself. It is the best for floors. There are urethane resin varnishes; urethane resin and alkyd resin varnishes (many polys fall into this group). Alkyd resin varnishes Hard and clear very little yollowing and there are phenolic resin varnishes. Very hard, amber in color and will darken with age.

Behlen's and Waterlox are both phenolic resin varnishes made with linseed oil and tung oil respectively.
Tung oil's true claim to fame is that when it is used to make varnish; the varnish is more waterproof and moisture resistent.

2) Will a thicker film (more than 2 or 3 coats over a shellac washcoat and a probable gel stain glaze) add blemish protection, or will it just make the blemish craters that much deeper?

Not sure I follow here... Wont the shellac and glaze hide the blemish? Filling the blemish with varnish will not make it deeper.

3) I am assuming that the cherry, once it gets scratched into the bare wood, will be easier than maple/birch to recolor to a close match – yes/no/maybe?

Mabybe, maybe not. Cherry does not stain well... Mahogany or Walnut would be better choices for the dark color you need... Dye may be the best way to blend the light colored wood in the scratch. These table look as though they were shot with a dark "cherry" toner. The color is in the finih not in the wood. If I had to guess I would say they were finished with a NC lacquer. Which tends to show water marks. Waterlox will not get water marks. Waterlox will not chip peel and crack as easily as these tables do now with the existing finish.

4) Will a strong dye, as an initial coat of color, penetrate deeply enough to help with question #3, and if so, how best to go about getting a strong dye onto a large bare cherry surface without severe blotching? I will admit to having limited success with dyes thus far……

[Chad Bender]

Hi folks,

4) Will a strong dye, as an initial coat of color, penetrate deeply enough to help with question #3, and if so, how best to go about getting a strong dye onto a large bare cherry surface without severe blotching? I will admit to having limited success with dyes thus far……

Bruce

Dying cherry is difficult because the wood blotches very easily. Attempting to wipe on the dye will likely result in unacceptable results. After numerous failed attempts I've achieved some success using a HPLV sprayer to lay down transtint dye in alcohol. Spray in a very methodical pattern, applying light coats. It is important to keep the edges between each spray swath wet (which means you have to work fast when spraying alcohol), or you will get lines showing where the swaths overlapped. Also, let the surface dry completely between each coat (which only takes a few minutes), or you might get some drips. Any drips and runs should be attacked immediately with a rag or they will blotch.

I suspect that achieving an even dye coat will be somewhat easier on your horizontal tabletops than on an assembled cabinet or other piece of furniture with vertical surfaces.

[Howard Acheson]

>>>> I am assuming that this was the result of putting the table into use before the Waterlox had time to fully cure.

Any oil based finish will not develop its full protective qualities until it has fully cured. Oil based finishes like Waterlox Original take 3-4 weeks to fully cure.

Some other comments:

My bet is that the coloring and the finish are one in the same. Commercial furniture of this type is has a finish where the color is mixed into the clear finish. It's not first stained and then clear coated. It's also probably a lacquer finish as it dries fast.

It's also obvious that the finish is not well adhered to the wood. Therefore any finish you put over the top will not adhere well either. It looks like it is very susceptible to chipping and that will continue not matter what you apply over the top. Adding more coats will not improve the underlying adhesion weakness.

The proper fix for these tables is to strip off the old finish completely. Then re-stain and put on a new clear coat.

It would be help if we knew what the existing finish is. Go to the top of this forum section and click on the "sticky". It will tell you how to determine what finish is on the tables now.

[Bruce Darrow]

Good morning folks,

Thanks for the replies. It is clear that I was not particularly clear in my original post as to what advice I am currently seeking. I’ll try to clear a few things up.

I don’t expect to be repairing the finish on any more of the original tops. I agree that the way to do that properly is to strip and sand and apply a whole new finish regime. This, due to time constraints, is impractical. And while I had some success (and obviously some failure) in coloring the blemishes and top coating over the old finish, I also agree that the adhesion problems displayed by the original finish will eventually come back to haunt, even under some of those tops that currently look acceptable.

The most glaring failure is the water rings. They occurred on several of my refinished tops. They are indeed on Waterlox, always on the original formulation (not at all on the satin). Again, I assume that it is because the table was put back into service too soon, that the finish hadn’t been given the 2-3 weeks to fully cure. As far as I know, no wax was used – the restaurant staff swears all they use is an industrial antibacterial spray. A look at the active ingredients label shows something like 95% water, along with 3 or 4 unrecognized chemicals – as an aside, nothing with silica in the name.

Where I am currently looking for advice is on how best to finish the one new test top I am to make to replace one of the originals, to see how it wears over the remainder of the ski season. It will be solid cherry. The powers that be rejected walnut or mahogany. I need to color it to come somewhere close to the red brown that they like, and top coat it with something that is both highly durable and easily repairable after abuse. Success here will result in replacement of all table tops over time, one or two at a time, with the old tops remaining in service until the new ones are fully ready. The advantages here are numerous and obvious.

As for coloration, I intend to use GF or equivalent gel stain, probably 2 layered colors, possibly over dye sealed in with a shellac wash coat. The comment on a strong dye over a large cherry surface has been noted, so I’m rethinking that. It was my thought that if it penetrated deeply enough, it might help with future repairs of abuse scratches into or through whatever topcoat I decide to use. Some reading I have done since posting also leads me to believe that this is a false hope – it won’t penetrate deeply enough to make a difference. I will listen to all advice on the sin of coloring cherry dark.

As for a topcoat, what I need is something with a faster cure than Waterlox, something brushable (spraying is not an option) that will resist the tender attentions of small children whose parents are too busy talking on their cell phones or who apparently think that application of knife and fork to things other than dinnerware is acceptable behavior…..sorry, mini rant here…..something that will take normal restaurant usage in stride. I’m leaning towards a common polyurethane varnish (yes I realize that “poly” is a type of varnish) because of its speed and durability – if it is durable enough for floors, it ought to be fine for my application. Like many others, I don’t care for the plastic look, either, but this just ain’t fine furniture, folks. It just has to look sorta like it, and hold up. My reservation with poly remains repairability. My impression is that a tung oil or linseed oil based varnish is easier to repair after abuse than polyurethane. Can someone speak to this?

I like Waterlox, and will continue to use it, but it is just too slow in this application. If any of the other non polyurethane varnishes are faster to full cure, I’ll consider them. Anyone?

Thanks,

Bruce

[Chad Bender]

Despite my earlier warnings, I still think dye is the best way to get an even color AND match the color of the existing tables. Why can't you spray? If you don't have a HPLV unit, the Harbor Freight one works well and the cost (compared with the amount of lumber and finish you're talking about for a project of this magnitude) is negligible. Overspray is minimal as long as you're careful, and once you get the hang of it the work goes much much faster than brushing.

I've got no recommendations on a fast curing, hard, durable, and easily repairable top coat. I suspect if such a beast existed we'd all be using it.

As for the water rings, I suggest coasters.

[Scott Holmes]

All varnishes including the "fast dry" polys still need ~4 weeks to completely cure in the right conditions; longer if it's too cold or too humid. The fast dry varnishes use a faster evaportaing thinner this does not change the curing phase. You could get away with putting them in service after a couple of weeks if you put a fan blowing across them to speed the curing. ( FYI- Don't use the fan until it's dry to the touch)

Another option is to use a conversion varnish much more durable but most need to be sprayed and personal safety is a major concern with these finishes.

Maybe Jim B. will jump in a talk about the EM 6000 by Target. It's a waterborne finish.

[Howard Acheson]

>>>> The most glaring failure is the water rings.

It's at least as likely that the "water rings" are being caused by hot plates and cups.

[Sam Murdoch]

>>>> The most glaring failure is the water rings.

It's at least as likely that the "water rings" are being caused by hot plates and cups.

One of the most impressive aspects of Waterlox is its extreme durability when properly cured. I once needed to lift a pretty severe dent out of a solid wood top finished with Waterlox and my treatment was a damp (nearly full wet) towel pressed over the dent with a hot steam iron. Let the steam jet of the iron push the moisture into the wood to raise the dent.Multiple treatments. Got most of the dent lifted but sadly not enough that the top didn't need to be refinished. BUT I never even remotely damaged the surrounding finish with the heat or moisture. And the actual sanding and blending in of the repair was easy with the Waterlox. Proper cure is the key, and yes, unfortunately, it takes Waterlox several weeks of real drying time before being put into such service. Worth the wait in my estimation.

[Henry Ambrose]

I consider all poly to be essentially non-repairable - the repair is to sand it all off and start over. Its tough until its breached, and once breached it'll let moisture through and start peeling. Before too long you have what you showed in your first post.

I'd start with cherry and rip out all the sap wood, give it a couple of passes of oil stain to get it close to the color your client wants, then a coat of Waterlox with a bit of the same stain mixed in. Follow this with a few brushed coats of straight Waterlox to finish off. I'd sand the last one to flatten and remove dust specs and such, then spray the final coat. You don't have to have an expensive sprayer to do this. The end result will be a durable and reasonably repairable finish.

If you are infiltrating the new tops into service, I'd think you'd have time to let them harden. Just start earlier to include the curing time. To speed this up you might rig up a little curing chamber to keep the top extra warm and dry. A 100 watt lamp inside a box of some kind will do the trick for almost no money.

[Jamie Schmitz]

Maybe the owner should just purchase/rent a couple of temporary tables so that you can do your buisness, that is put in place the temps so you can take a couple home-maybe see if they unbolt from the base for easy transport.Pour on epoxy is the most durable finish and not terribly hard to apply. Also a UV finish will give you a very high build within minutes but the equipment that is used to cure the finish is very expensive.
My thought on the original failed finish is that the glaze was probably put on to heavy and thus top coat failure. People make the mistake of trying to get it too dark in one coat.
http://youtu.be/JDJKzbJSfmA

[Bruce Darrow]

Well.....

Long cure times, no matter what finish is used, oil or water, apparently. Sigh......

One confirmation of my worries about polyurethane repairability. Anyone else, pro or con?

A glowing testimonial for Waterlox, supporting an earlier post.

Some dying advice.

Lots to think about. The cherry will be in the shop tomorrow, so I should have a raw top and some testing scrap soon. Other projects are also in the works, so some time yet to decide on a regime.

The real difficulty, I will bet, will be holding on to the finished top until it's ready to be put into service. They really want to see how it will perform, the season is nearing its end, and they won't want to hear about weeks for a cure. It will test my communications skills! Perhaps some intentional heat +/or water abuse on the test samples will help.

Keep the responses coming, if anyone is so willing. I'll be watching.

Thanks,

Bruce

[Mike Null]

For this application I would use a more utilitarian wood like red oak. It is hard and durable and can be stained and finished pretty much however you like.

For this application I would use poly--it's hard, durable and resistant to darn near everything but cigarettes. I built a kitchen table 15 years ago that is only now showing enough wear to be refinished and we take all our meals in the kitchen. No table cloths or placemats either.

I am far from a finishing expert and I know the bias that woodworkers have toward poly but the fact is--it works.