Coarse Stone and Flattening Plate

[James White]

I am need of a new flattening plate. My DMT Diasharp has worn out. I would also like to be able to flatten the backs of plane irons and chisels faster than my Norton 220 grit wet stone currently does. So I would like to ask your recommendations. I was ready to get the new dmt Diaflat but I have read some concerns that it is too coarse for finer stones. So what do you all recommend.

A flattening plate that can do all of my stones coarse and fine and a new stone that will cut faster than the Norton 220. If that is even possible. My stones are the Norton 220 and Shapton glass 1000,4000,8000 and a Shapton Pro 16,000? or 12,000? not sure at that last ones grit.

James

[David Weaver]

flatten the backs of your chisels with norton 3x 100. Cut it with a utility knife along a straight edge and stick it down to a known flat surface with spray adhesive (from anywhere, home depot is fine). It must be stuck down. If it is loose, it will either get cut, dub a chisel or do some other thing you don't want it to do. It will outcut a stone, and you'll get three "stones" worth for each sheet. Use it dry.

Get a DMT duosharp (check amazon or google shopping) with coarse and x coarse, use the coarse side for your stones, and xcoarse for metal (or the other way around). Whatever side you choose to use with stones, never use it on metal, and it will last a very long time.

Flatten the norton 220 with 60 grit wet and dry sandpaper or throw it away.

If your pro isn't a 1000, it's probably 1500.

[James White]

Dave,

I left a zero off of the Pro. I fixed it now.

So with your recommendation to go with 100 grit paper. What do you follow that up with? 1000g stone?

James

[David Weaver]

yes, a 1000 grit glasstone will follow 100 grit sandpaper just fine. The benefit of the paper over a coarse stone is that it will actually be flat the entire time you use it. Coarse stones are transient in flatness to different degrees.

3x works well dry and you can brush off or vacuum off the black stuff. Because it stays dead flat, the fairly large step to a 1000 grit stone isn't a problem (it would be if the stone became worn hollow or out of flat).

[Chris Griggs]

I used to use the coarse sandpaper for backs, but have come to prefer coarse waterstones to it. I always felt like the sandpaper wore down too quickly - I would brush it off and this would help, but even when kept clean I felt it would lose its bite to fast. It will certainly work well, but I feel like my Shapton Pro 120 works faster, even with the required flattening and cleanup. There are other supposedly better coarse stones out there too, but I use the Shapton 120 because it was given to me for free. Coarse waterstones do build up swarth very quickly but the ones I've used tend to keep cutting for fast for a while even when they look clogged. Frequent dressing with a diamond stone also keeps my 120 cutting very fast.

(Archie will no doubt be along soon to tell you all about the Sig 120, King 300, Chosera 400 and 600, [which are all fantastic BTW] and probably something else I can't recall - in that order :D)

I agree with Dave that the big jump is fine (Archie will disagree). As Dave said, just make sure your 1k is nice and flat to start with.

[Greg Fletcher]

I've been using the norton3x 100 per David's suggestion in a previous thread on back flattening and it works well.

I just received my order from Stu containing the Sigma power 120, 400, and the 1K-6K-13K stones. The 120 seems to be too agressive for the backs because it leaves some pretty deep scratches. It seems to work well on bevels though.

Before reading this thread yesterday I used the 400 to flatten the backs of some Narex bench chisels and it did a good job. Today I tried an old 2" bench plane chisel and the 400 wasn't cutting it as quickly maybe due to the larger area. I went to the 100 grit and it was much faster. The step up to the 400 wasn't too bad but I think I am going to get some 220 grit to speed up the process. The jump from the 400 to the 1000 is okay.

[David Weaver]

If you go through enough flattening that you get tired of throwing away sandpaper, it might be time to look at loose diamonds on mild steel or iron (which also stays flat).

Loose diamonds that coarse are not nice for bevel work, though.

But for flattening, you can put pressure on a setup like that until your feet come off the ground, and it's no issue.

[Bill Haumann]

I recently got a sigma power 120 grit stone and it is very quick. It is worlds apart from the norton 220 - much much faster, stays flat (certainly doesn't dish when I look at it like my norton 220). I've also been able to go from the sigma to an 800 with little problem.

- Bill

[Archie England]

As Chris mentioned, I've totally converted from sandpaper to low grit waterstones, and I prefer them over oilstones, as well. The Sigma power 120 is a beast on backs but works well on bevels. I, too, have stopped using it to flatten backs due to the deep scratches left. My King Deluxe 300 is a really aggressive stone that gives me good service on bevels and backs, and it works as a splash-n-go and stays incredibly flat. These two stones really have positively changed how I prep blades for sharpening. The Shapton Pro 120 is closer to the Chosera 400 than to my 300; but, as Chris said, if you'll keep it scuffed up it will cut more abrasively.

As for flattening stones from my 300 to my 13000--I use the iWood 300 that Stu sells (ToolsfromJapan). In the last six months I've flattened blade backs from scratch on about 60 blades, plus used my stones (Sigmas and Choseras) to sharpen dozen of blades for woodworking and the iWood is holding up fantastically! That or the Atoma 400 are my top choices. BTW, I tried the DuoSharp DMT and it doesnt' hold up nearly so well.

[David Weaver]

Nothing will hold up to indefinite use for backs or bevels (though a stone that's burnt out on backs will still work fine for honing bevels if not grinding), but any diamond hone will hold up indefinitely to working stones - waterstones at least (maybe you could burn one out on an oilstone).

I'd consider flatness of a diamond hone the most important for flattening stones. If there is some stiction with one (like the DMT vs. Atoma deal), you can always use more water.

While I like the atoma better, it costs quite a bit more, I guess (I say that pretending i've ever been tight about stones). I think if someone wants to get down to the business of just sharpening things and keeping their stones flat and doing it at a low cost, the duosharp is probably the winner. If cost is no object, I would probably opt for the atoma (I've not tried the $150+ plate that DMT makes, I don't think it's necessary for flattening stones in the shop). I have a knock-off of the iwood (well, two of them), it's a nice design, too.

[Lars Larson]

I have the DMT Dia-Flat and have had no issues with using it to flatten finer stones. I use it exclusively for my water stones and do not use it for back flattening. Currently the highest grit stone I am using is a 10000 Sigma Select II and I cannot detect any flaws after truing it up with the DMT. It takes care of things quickly and gets me back to sharpening (and working) with a minimum of time invested.

Lars

[James White]

BTW, I tried the DuoSharp DMT and it doesnt' hold up nearly so well.

I didn't realize it when Dave first recommended it. But my first diamond stone was a DuoSharp. I paid $100 for it from Rockler. Not only was it not flat. I killed it the first time I flattened my Norton 220 with it. I felt that DMT would not warranty it after that and Rockler is 1.5hrs drive into Boston for me. So I have a bad taste in my mouth after that deal.

How many others have used a diamond plate on there coarse stones with no Ill effects. From what has been discussed so far I think the Iwood sounds good. I could go for the Atoma if there are some who have been able to favorably compare it to the IWood. But if there isn't any reason to spend the extra. I don't think I will.

Before I started this thread I had the Shapton Pro 120 in mind for my coarsest stone. But it seems there may be some better choices. The Sigma power sounds like it may be a bit too coarse. So what is the happy medium? Is it the Shapton 120?

James

[David Weaver]

Couple of things:
* if the duosharp isn't flat, DMT will replace it (maybe it's too late, I don't know, but the worst you can do is at least find out)
* I think the duosharps have a lifetime warranty. I don't know what it warrants against, but I hear DMT's service is good. It's free to call them.
* Most of the woodworking places are very bad places to buy diamond hones price-wise. Stu's probably the exception for the iwood and atoma. I saw what is equivalent to an iwood 300/1000, i believe, for well over $100 at one place (can't remember what brand they put on it, but it was very evident what it was) and the same thing without specifying brand at JWW for over $100. I believe stu's price is about $80.
* For the DMTs, I've bought three of them for $60 from amazon. One for me, one for a buddy and one I sent to stu, because he can't get them over there. Stu's even came with a base. I didn't like the base (it reminded me of a plastic transformers toy), but stu can comment on that. I guess it's better than nothing, but maybe not worth what it cost to ship it. It's not as good as the iwood or atoma bases (I don't know if the atoma base has anything to do with atoma, though, it may just be a marketed hard rubber base in japan).

Any electroplated hone is going to wear out with tools. if you have the discipline to keep a very light touch on the finer ones, they'll last a lot longer. All of them should be OK for working bevels long after you get displeased with how fast they start to see inadequate for flattening backs. Maybe oil or kero on the stones that allow it (not the atoma) will extend their life by reducing the friction between the blade and the diamonds. I hear some of the really coarse stones last longer, but they're not cheap and they are deep scratchers, deeper than loose diamonds on a kanaban from what I can tell. maybe it's in my head, I don't know.

I personally don't like any of the coarse waterstones stones (or oilstones). Not the old (and hard carborundum/silicon carbide stones), not the shapton 220, definitely not the norton 220, etc. But if lots of other folks do, there must be some virtue to them. Certainly for knives where you don't have the back of a tool causing them to load up, they're useful.

[TODD RAYMER]

I use the norton 3x sandpaper to flatten the backs of my chisels and plane blade followed by water stones. I also keep a magnet handy to pick up the metal shavings from the sand paper when it starts to look dark from the shavings. I take a magnet wrap paper around it and when I'm done I take the magnet out of the paper and the shaving fall right off.

[Archie England]

I have the iWood 300; it's $53 + shipping from Stu; the 300/1000 is $80. I've had no problems with mine and I've used it a lot for flattening stones exclusively.

And, yes, there are many viable ways to arrive at the same destination. So, enjoy the venue you've chosen.

Stu tells me that the Sigma 400 is a much better stone than the King Deluxe 300. I will eventually buy one, but the King works well enough for now. Another friend thinks the Gesshin 400 is a bit better than the Sigma 400 in terms of speed. He's keeping both, though.

Before I gave the Shapton 120 to Chris, I did a lot of comparative testing with it and it's very much like the Cho 400. Chris spends more time flattening it so it works as a faster cutter that way. Otherwise, it loads up and works much like a Cho 400. The scratch patterns are very similar, yielding an edge that will sharpen quickly. So, my guess is that the Shapton 120/Cho 400 are bested by the King 300, the Gesshin 400, and the Sigma power 400, the latter which also outperforms a Sigma Select II 240--according to Orlando. Now that I've invested in better waterstones my old go-to Norton India stone stays stored and idle. Occasionally I'll pull it out to reassess it's performance but the waterstones continually beat it.

Have fun...

[Aaron Rappaport]

I haven't suffered through as much back-flattening as some of the other posters, but I have suffered. One method I've always wondered about, but haven't tried, are powered options like belt sanders, worksharps, or wet wheels (makita 9820, tormek, and their clones). A bit off-topic, perhaps, but it might save the OP a lot of time compared to stones, especially for backs that need a lot of work. Bob Smalser used to speak well of using a stationary belt sander for this.

In addition to the non-powered options already listed in this thread, I've also tried very coarse drywall screen and very coarse norton blue sanding belts. I can't say that I've been happy with them, although people who do this a lot have recommended them. My criterion for happiness may be too strict. I want, in less than 10 minutes, to have all the pits out of a pretty mucked up old blade so that it's ready for the 1000 grit stone. That may be asking too much of any back flattening option.

[David Weaver]

If you have a belt sander with a flat platen, and it's not super critical that you don't dub anything at all, you can run some of the pits out. The tighter the belt, the better.

I would rather have a belt grinder with a flat platen and a finer belt to do that, though, the cleanup work and getting the dubbing off is not insignificant. If you've got a jack iron or something you're going to camber, it's better because that side/edge dubbing doesn't matter.

I wouldn't do it with most chisels unless you have a good belt grinder with a very flat platen.

Diamonds on hard steel or psa stick down aluminum oxide paper on a long run (4 feet or so) and something to hold the iron will get you where you want to go. The diamonds aren't as fast as fresh sandpaper, but you can pretty much go with them as hard as you want as long as you want and if you do several dozen very out of shape items, you can probably re-lap or file the lapping surface once every couple of years. So it's probably still faster.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

In my experience, 10 minutes seems like an overly optimistic target for rehabbing a "pretty mucked up old blade", but I've probably been scrounging up worse chisels than some folks. David's approach is a good one though - the longer the stroke you can do, the quicker the job. I used to have a 2 foot long piece of granite. Stick some sandpaper on there, and you could get pretty fast. It's easier to make longer strokes (to a point) rather than faster ones to get more abrasion. It's like trying to walk fast - at some point you can only move your legs so fast, but longer strides gets you a little more speed.

A method I've espoused here before, and continue to use, is one I picked up from Garrett Hacks book - I take a small grind wheel, the kind that mounts on handheld drill or whatever - I suppose a dremel one would work, but they feel a little small for the work - and use it to grind out the back of the blade, giving it a hollow grind like the back of a japanese tool. It's not as nice or as pretty as a proper hollow grind, but it gets the work done. It particularly makes it easier if you're trying to lap the back of an old plane blade that's got a "belly" to it. I just remove enough that I'm doing all the working the back of the blade in the important spots, and so that the back isn't rocking if it's convex. It hones out eventually. I go back and forth between the grinding and lapping on the sandpaper to make sure I don't go too far and that I'm removing material from the right spots. Layout dye helps too. If the important parts of the blade by the cutting edge are suffering from pitting, I usually just grind them away from the bevel side now that I have a decent dry grinder.

Honestly, I try to avoid buying anymore vintage tools in iffy condition now that I have a decent working set for most things, as I just don't enjoy restoring them as much as using them. Of course, the operative word here is "try" . . .

[James White]

Some of you are going to laugh at me for this. But I decided to buy American. Despite my concerns about this new product. One that I have not mentioned is that it may be too big! The wear on the diamonds in the center will be more than on the outer edges. Therefore over time it may start to leave a domed surface on the stones. I hope that is not true.
DMT Dia Flat Plate 10"x4" DMT Diaflat XXC 1 159.00
Subtotal 159.00
Shipping 0.00
Tax 0.00
Total 159.00
Why? The manufacturer is recommending it for flattening all grits of stones. I don't believe any of the others recommend that. Stu has a statement on his site that recommends the diamond plates for medium to fine stones. I think I know why. I think my Norton 220 is a diamond plate killer!

Regarding coarse stones. Besides the Shapton. Are any of the coarse stones non soakers? I do not have running water in my shop. That is the reason I decided to go with a Shapton setup to begin with. So far I have been pleased with them. Hence the reason I was going to go with the Shapton 120.

James

[Chris Griggs]

Regarding coarse stones. Besides the Shapton. Are any of the coarse stones non soakers? I do not have running water in my shop. That is the reason I decided to go with a Shapton setup to begin with. So far I have been pleased with them. Hence the reason I was going to go with the Shapton 120.

James

The king deluxe 300 and the sigma 400 are both splash and goes as well.

[Stuart Tierney]

Why? The manufacturer is recommending it for flattening all grits of stones. I don't believe any of the others recommend that. Stu has a statement on his site that recommends the diamond plates for medium to fine stones. I think I know why. I think my Norton 220 is a diamond plate killer!

Regarding coarse stones. Besides the Shapton. Are any of the coarse stones non soakers? I do not have running water in my shop. That is the reason I decided to go with a Shapton setup to begin with. So far I have been pleased with them. Hence the reason I was going to go with the Shapton 120.

James

Hi James,

Well, the reason being is that the coarse stones I tend to dabble in will, more often than not, chew a diamond plate to pieces no matter who made it.

I've got some stones here that are, from what I understand, cut from the same cloth as the Norton #220. And they're chew toys. (Soft, unremarkable, gutless)

The Shapton #120 is a pretty, rather expensive, non soaking chew toy.

The Shapton GS #120 is a pretty, expensive, thin, vulcanized (hard) chew toy.

The Sigma Power GC (ceramic) #240 is a chew toy (and it's why I won't sell it).

The Sigma Power #120 is what diamond plates have nightmares about.

The Sigma Power #400 is what keeps diamond plates awake at night, so they don't have nightmares more often.

The Sigma Power 'Naoru' #120 is what gives diamond plates heart failure.

(I've never let the Naoru near my DMT, but the iWood and Atoma deal with it, slowly and painfully. The DMT Duo I have (thanks Dave!) wouldn't last more than 30 seconds.)


I'd buy a Dia-flat myself, but they've jacked the price up again to a point where it'd be lunacy to buy one and have it shipped here. A few weeks ago, it was running $150 but they were out of stock everywhere at that price. Now, back up to close $200 at anywhere with remotely tolerable shipping. (Amazon!)


I just wonder, how will DMT react if I tear one up in a week and send it back?

(Yes, I'm quite serious I can do it. Some things I have here are best left off the market at large...)

Stu.

[David Weaver]

I think I'd keep diamond plates away from all of those stones.

What I've noticed is that on coarse stones, I want something at least the grit of the stone or more coarse to make the coarse stone as aggressive as possible.

I've heard people say also that they feel that the coarse stones will work the electroplate even if the diamonds can tolerate the abrasive (i'm not aware of any abrasive that they can't, of course).

That and the experience of my slightly worn 400 atoma on a 400 chosera make me use something more coarse to scratch the chosera the very rare times that I use it. It behaves like a stone finer than 400 grit if I work it with the atoma - to the point that its behavior is nearly identical to a 1000 (or really 800) grit shapton. If I use a cheapie chinese finger diamond stone in the range of 180 grit to scuff it, the 400 chosera stone actually acts like 400 and cuts deeper and faster. It is definitely a very hard stone that could (turn your head and look away for this...) benefit from being just a tad softer.

I don't know why they send the same 600 grit waterstone nagura with it as they do with the 10k chosera.

I wouldn't remotely consider a diaflat for $200.

[Chris Griggs]

Hi James,

The Sigma Power 'Naoru' #120 is what gives diamond plates heart failure.

What the heck is the "Naoru"? I've never seen that listed on your site, Stu.

FWIW, I quite like the Shapton Pro 120. This thread (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?174281-Ebay-Win-Part-2-VBM-424-The-Good-The-Bad-amp-The-Pudding&highlight=) shows what it did to pretty badly pitted blade in about 20 minutes. The key is to keep it dressed and keep it flat - when freshly lapped it cuts very quickly. I use my iwood 300 for this.

That said James, I've learned from experience not to doubt Stu's advice when it comes to stones, and if I were buying another low grit stone, I would purchase exactly what he recommends. I say that with absolute sincerity - he does not recommend or peddle things that do not deliver exactly how he says. While again, I quite like the Sh. Pro 120, I have no doubt that the stones he says are better, really are. Everything he ever told me about the Sigmas and how they compare to other stones I have in time to see for myself was DEAD ON ACCURATE! This includes the time he told me that I would come to regret not purchasing the 13K - he was right, I do...

This probably sounds like I'm in the guys pocket - I'm not, in fact I've only ever placed one order from him, but I was and am just that satisfied. I also happen to think hes just a heck of a nice guy and good businessman, and am happy to shamelessly plug him and his business any day. Take my word for it James, email him telling him what you need to do, and buy what he recommends, you will not regret it.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I probably sound stupid here, but while we're talking flattening - what did folks use to true their stones before diamond plates?

[Bruno Frontera dela Cruz]

How often do you really need to flatten things??? I went the cheap route and bought a flat piece of granite from woodcraft for less than $40, then bought silicon carbide automotive sandpaper at Carquest for a reasonable price $(forgot exactly how much) and have flattened everything that I own that needs flattening. Probably for less than $50, and I doubt I will need to do it again this year.

[Stuart Tierney]

I probably sound stupid here, but while we're talking flattening - what did folks use to true their stones before diamond plates?

I used to use loose grit on a steel plate.

Still send the stuff out (loose grit) regularly since some stones don't talk nicely to diamond plates.

To a point, my source for little bottles to stick that grit into has ceased to exist and I need to find another one ASAP. It's a stupid, inconsequential little thing that I can get all excited over some small, cheap plastic screw cap bottles, but it's the kind of thing that's important to me. They're available nearly everywhere though, so not difficult to find by the dozen. More troublesome by the thousand.

(Work great for anything not volatile/postal system safe.)

Chris.

Naoru?

Don't ask. Big, hard as hades and nasty. Supposed to be a flattening stone, and it does work but when it's out of flat, gad knows how to get it flat again...

Stu.

[David Weaver]

I probably sound stupid here, but while we're talking flattening - what did folks use to true their stones before diamond plates?

* rub stones together
* rub stones on the side of a grinding wheel
* consciously make an effort to use the surface of the whole stone
* use a coarse hard stone to flatten softer stones
* don't work with flat stones unless necessary (I'd guess that in a lot of shops that used two stones, the stone used for bevel work may not have been kept too flat in the length, a finish-level oilstone can be kept very flat by skill)
* there were probably people somewhere who did the job with lapidary powder, but who knows if that was a cheap thing to do? Maybe it wasn't common.

it's hard when you find an old stone that's out of flat to tell who used it and how. it's also hard to say how a craftsman used stones 200 years ago and how they cared for them, unless you have an account of it in writing, and even that is probably somewhat anecdotal. Anyone have such a thing? Any *good* stones have likely been used pretty hard since then, and there are *many* fine natural stones that most of us have never heard of.

I shaved the other day with a razor honed off of purple slate (it gave me razor burn, but it was sharp, all the synthetic stones give me razor burn, too). I sharpened a chisel with it last night compared to stu's 13k stone, which is my finest synthetic stone (the slate was extremely fine, maybe unproductively so with oil). I think the 13k is finer by a whisker, esp. with water, and it's about 3 or 4x as fast. But the slate is definitely hard and will stay flat, makes a cool purple slurry if you bother to abrade it, and you could use it for years with some care if you could tolerate the cutting speed knowing there are lots of fast and fine options now.

There may have been some emphasis long ago in harder stones (like the slate, like the charnley forest, hindostan, etc..) that were easier to keep flat, who knows?

[Rob Parsons]

Stu,

I enjoy your insights into the world of waterstones. What was your recommendation for a coarse stone for the original poster? And how do we flatten these coarse beasts? Thanks

[Bill White]

I'm gettin' a headache. It all seems like brain surgery.
I just don't understand how sharp is sharp. In my shop, if it cuts, its sharp. What am I missin'?
I have water stones, a Makita horizontal sharpener, fine/coarse grinding wheels on the grinder, diamond paddles, a honing strop, and I can hurt myself without other stuff.
Oh well.............
Bill

[David Weaver]

Well, I guess there's a never ending level of sharp. I saw someone mention (i'll try to get my decimals right) .01 micron abrasive the other day? Maybe I'm mistaken but I'm absolutely sure someone was extolling the virtues of .05 micron abrasive powder (this is in a razor forum).

Such sharpness will remove every single thing that even threatens to not be perfectly even with the skin in general on your face. Weeper city, get out the styptic.

As far as the shop goes, paring chisels are nice to have blindingly sharp, so are smoothers, to a point (though we do go overboard). The rest of it...well, I still haven't made anything that I couldn't have made with one single hard arkansas stone. With paring chisels that are ultra hard, it's not like you'll want more sharpness if you haven't seen more sharpness, but once you have that level of super sharpness, you don't feel like moving back down if you don't have to - as long as it doesn't take eons to get that sharp.

But let's say you have something like stus 13k stone, which isn't by any means necessary for woodworking in general and you work every chisel and smoother iron it as a last stop - regardless of necessity, if you do have it, you sure won't mind what it does.

[James White]

Dave,

That is a good way of describing the desire for a keen edge. It is not essential. But once you use a few planes or chisels with that degree of sharpness. You will love it. If it is obtainable without too much additional effort. Why would you not want it? In fact I think it really isn't any additional effort once you get your blade or chisel properly conditioned.

Thank you all for your input. I decided to hold off on the coarse stone. Until I give the dry paper on granite a try. I hate getting the granite out because it reminds me of the scary sharp process and the mess it created. But I think once a new blade is done. The granite will get put away till next new item arrives. By the way that will be this.
http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=50251&cat=1,41182,41187&ap=1

It is already ordered. I don't have any high angle smothers. So this will be my first. Lets hope it turns out to be a winner.

James

[Stuart Tierney]

I'm gettin' a headache. It all seems like brain surgery.
I just don't understand how sharp is sharp. In my shop, if it cuts, its sharp. What am I missin'?
I have water stones, a Makita horizontal sharpener, fine/coarse grinding wheels on the grinder, diamond paddles, a honing strop, and I can hurt myself without other stuff.
Oh well.............
Bill

Brain surgery?

Wow, that difficult?

A little secret of mine is that while I have oodles of stones, a couple of bench grinders, belt sanders and various other gadgets and doohickeys there are 7 things that get pulled out most often when I've got to sharpen something, up to and including preparing new chisels and plane blades, repairing small nicks and chips and all the other minor surgery that blades need as part of their daily grind. They'll fit in a shoe box, need no special care, no power and need no special skills other than a little stamina and (when things are in bad shape!) time.

And there's no chance of permanently screwing up a blade if you goof, only needing some more time to fix any added errors...

5 parts I sell as a set. No surprise there and I don't want to mention it again.

6th part is the Sigma #400. Just coarse enough to get most stuff done like flatten backs quickly and fix bevels well, easy enough to use because it has no bad habits that I can pin on it (other than being hard and a little troublesome to flatten, but once flat it stays that way) and it's just a great compliment to the 5 bits above.

Final part is a cheap honing guide. When I have a new blade or one that's obviously out of kilter, I want to get it into something resembling correct, so further sharpening doesn't exacerbate any bad traits. Call me obsessive compulsive if you must, but I like things to be right and correct so I use a guide to get things rolling nicely, and from then on out, freehand.

That's it.

I will slip in other stones and bits of kit occasionally, especially if I need to find something out, test new gear or otherwise want to learn something new, but when time is money, those 7 parts come out, get used for however long it takes (not very long usually) and then get put away again until next time.

If I didn't have the above, then I'd sort out from what I did have what works well, what doesn't work well at all and what is junk. Lose the junk and replace it with known working kit. Consider the not-so-good stuff to be 'lost' and replace that with known working stuff. Keep the good stuff and get to work and forget about all the noise, naysayers and wannabes so I could just make my stuff sharp and get back to work.


No tricks, no BS, no special skills required. So long as it works, every time and makes my blades sharp no matter what they are or how I want to sharpen them.


Works well enough that I'm willing to sharpen stuff for folks and send it out. If I couldn't get something sharp enough to openly say "this is sharp" I wouldn't offer that.

(My standard of sharp has been used as a yardstick by others. Not everyone gets there, but that's not because I'm not trying to make it easy...)

And that's the thing, sharpening shouldn't be difficult. It shouldn't need any special skills or abilities. It shouldn't need any magical materials or gear. For the most part, making tools (especially!) sharp is a completely mechanical process that can be done well by numerous methods, all of which will get that blade sharp enough to do most classes of work very well.

It's the extra little bit, the OTT, split atoms/space time continuum stuff that starts getting a little odd at times. You can get there by various methods once again, but often there's a bit of fudging and fiddling going on or some coin being spilled. It's not always essential to have things "this sharp", but when all else is failing, I find having stuff that's on a whole new level of sharp lets you get away with much, much more than an otherwise 'sharp' blade will.

(And I'm blessed that I've had most stones that'll pull this off either pass through my own hands at one point or another, on their way to a new home or I have them in part of my own kit. I've got a whole other bag of tricks to choose from as well. ;) )

Stu.

[les winter]

I have been considering the xx coarse dmt. I note that dmt sells a smaller version than the $200 monster. It's 3-3/8 x 8. And it costs less than $80. Has anyone tried this smaller size on 8x3 waterstones?
thanks
Les

[James White]

Brain surgery?

(My standard of sharp has been used as a yardstick by others. Not everyone gets there, but that's not because I'm not trying to make it easy...)

Stu.

Stu,

Thank you for that. Could you elaborate on what is used as a yardstick for sharpness. I am not sure what you meant by what was quoted above.

James

[James White]

I have been considering the xx coarse dmt. I note that dmt sells a smaller version than the $200 monster. It's 3-3/8 x 8. And it costs less than $80. Has anyone tried this smaller size on 8x3 waterstones?
thanks
Les

Les,

That is the one I am currently replacing. It works. But has stiction issues. Had I not used it for a 220 grit stone. I am sure it would still be giving me good service. $80 is on the high side for that stone. I think I scored mine for $40. But I think I got lucky on a closeout or something. It was a vendor on Amazon.

How about one of the Iwood models from
http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=335_462_463

On the left side you can change the currency to US dollars.

James

[David Weaver]

If you're having stiction issues, add a little bit of dish soap to your water.

That goes for pretty much anything hard and synthetic that ever troubles you.

[Stuart Tierney]

Stu,

Thank you for that. Could you elaborate on what is used as a yardstick for sharpness. I am not sure what you meant by what was quoted above.

James

223774

Hope that works.

White steel chisel, 30 degree bevel, hair is in one piece, thinned slightly in the middle where it bends back on itself...

Completely pointless really, but puts the "what is really sharp?" argument to rest pretty easily.

Or I could put in a pic of my shaving with a plane blade too. Shaving my sideburns that is...

Stu.



(Caveat, it's been said a pretty sad edge can do this. That edge there did it because it was smooth, refined and very, very sharp. Too sharp for a chisel really. It's a tad dangerous.)

[Augusto Orosco]

Brain surgery?

5 parts I sell as a set. No surprise there and I don't want to mention it again.


Stu.

Stu,

I understand -and appreciate- your reluctance to advertise your own products, but I have been searching for this set in your website with no luck. Could you point me to it? (feel free to PM me so as not to violate the TOS)

Thanks!

[David Weaver]

Not too sharp for a chisel! Great for a parer, and won't hurt anything else.

As stu points out, you can do the HHT with a fairly coarse stone, but you have to fiddle with it where as a good fine steel and a fine stone will do it without question anywhere on the edge.

There are people who insist that you should be able to do the HHT with your razor before you leave the 1000 stone and move up from there (which is a total waste of time). I think there's a large element of chance in whether or not you get HHT success at a coarser grit like that, but it can definitely be done.

With a *good* razor edge, you should be able to get it anywhere on the edge from either side without any trouble, and cleanly across the hair, and then turn around and shave with the razor and get no razor burn and no unexpected weepers.

[Chris Griggs]

I've never passed the HHT with any stone, including using the 13k. I go from shaving arm hair, to popping arm hair, to very comfortably popping arm hair, but when I try the HHT, nothing. Yes pointless, but its one of those things I want be able to get my blades to just because/just in case - what gives? I want to shave my face with a chisel!

[David Weaver]

I want to shave my face with a chisel!

round the corners first!

It might be your hair that's the trouble. One of the criticisms of the HHT is how different the results are just with different peoples' hair. Could even be how you hold your hair, how much you wet it, etc.

Have you read Coticule.be and their extensive discussion of the test?

If you have sharpened your chisels to the point that there are no lines and an endgrain surface looks like wax, then you won't gain anything passing the HHT. A chisel or Plane edge wil be blasted into sub-HHT level in extremely short order in use.

(if you want to pass it just for fun and you're not using something like white steel, which has near no tendency to hold a wire edge, just give an edge a couple of very quick palm strops off the 13k and your hair should catch and break)

I would never have done any of the above except I was trying to figure out how different the edge is in the "popular" finish stones. I can get HHT results with all 3, though I think the 13k is just a tad finer than both the chosera 10k and the shapton pro 15k.

Totally pointless to talk about this in regard to woodworking, but entertaining nonetheless.

[James White]

223774

Hope that works.

White steel chisel, 30 degree bevel, hair is in one piece, thinned slightly in the middle where it bends back on itself...

Completely pointless really, but puts the "what is really sharp?" argument to rest pretty easily.

Or I could put in a pic of my shaving with a plane blade too. Shaving my sideburns that is...

Stu.

Stu,

I hope you will not be offended. But I did not understand what was done to the hair in your post. I also find that your web site is best for an "educated shopper". In other words. I feel lost in a sea of options that I have no idea on what is what. Again it is not meant to be offensive. But as a constructive criticism.

I also could not find the kit you mentioned on your web site. That would be a great category for your web site. Stu's recommendations for the beginner, enthusiast, elitist etc... :p



(Caveat, it's been said a pretty sad edge can do this. That edge there did it because it was smooth, refined and very, very sharp. Too sharp for a chisel really. It's a tad dangerous.)

I hope you will not be offended. But I did not understand what was done to the hair in your post. I also find that your web site is best for an "educated shopper". In other words. I feel lost in a sea of options that I have no idea on what is what. Again it is not meant to be offensive. But as a constructive criticism.

I also could not find the kit you mentioned on your web site. That would be a great category for your web site. Stu's recommendations for the beginner, enthusiast, elitist etc... :p

After googling HHT test I found on youtube what it meant. So I do understand now. Sorry but I just don't know the lingo yet.

James

[Kent A Bathurst]

Stu,

I understand -and appreciate- your reluctance to advertise your own products, but I have been searching for this set in your website with no luck. Could you point me to it? (feel free to PM me so as not to violate the TOS)

Thanks!

I can help you on that one............http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=335_404_403&products_id=1667

[Chris Griggs]

Totally pointless to talk about this in regard to woodworking, but entertaining nonetheless.

Indeed!

I think I read that when I was researching stones, but must have missed that part about different folks hair. Mine is very fine so that could be the culprit - I imagine coarse hair works better. Sometimes I think about going totally off the deep end and trying out straight razor shaving - especially since my fiancee made me shave off my beard so now I have to shave more often. If I've got to do it, might as well find some amusement from it, and once I order a 13k I'll be very equipt to sharpen them. Bah! As if I need something else to distract me from the things I should be doing - maybe I'll add straight razor shaving to "next years list" - it will be just below building a moxon vise and just above building an infill plane.

[Augusto Orosco]

I can help you on that one............http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=335_404_403&products_id=1667

Thanks, Kent!

In my initial search, I read the description as 1000-6000-13000 set and thought "it's a 3 piece set; not what I am looking for". Should have read the detailed description to find out it included the 5 components Stu talked about.

[David Weaver]

Indeed!

I think I read that when I was researching stones, but must have missed that part about different folks hair. Mine is very fine so that could be the culprit - I imagine coarse hair works better. Sometimes I think about going totally off the deep end and trying out straight razor shaving - especially since my fiancee made me shave off my beard so now I have to shave more often. If I've got to do it, might as well find some amusement from it, and once I order a 13k I'll be very equipt to sharpen them. Bah! As if I need something else to distract me from the things I should be doing - maybe I'll add straight razor shaving to "next years list" - it will be just below building a moxon vise and just above building an infill plane.

If you are not overly sensitive, you'll be able to shave straight off a 13k without anything other than a good quality and very smooth bare leather strop (you can do with less, but good smooth leather is important for shaving).

Straight off of any of the good synthetic stones (with leather only) my face will light up like a christmas tree. But with a little bit of hand american chromium oxide, i can shave comfortably. Still might make a couple of weepers.

I have only one stone that allows sharpness > SP13k and is a little bit smoother than chromium oxide powder yet, no weepers.

Shaving with a straight razor can be another slippery slope, but you can do it relatively on the cheap, too, if you make your own strop and just add the green chromium oxide to whatever your synthetic stones are.

[les winter]

The Norton 120 grit stone arrived today. I used it on my Norton 1000, 4000, 8000. Great results. The 8" size is no problem. I'm going to keep it dedicated to the water stones. I hope it lasts.

Les

[Rob Lee CT]

Brain surgery?

Wow, that difficult?

A little secret of mine is that while I have oodles of stones, a couple of bench grinders, belt sanders and various other gadgets and doohickeys there are 7 things that get pulled out most often when I've got to sharpen something, up to and including preparing new chisels and plane blades, repairing small nicks and chips and all the other minor surgery that blades need as part of their daily grind. They'll fit in a shoe box, need no special care, no power and need no special skills other than a little stamina and (when things are in bad shape!) time...
Stu.

Illuminating thread(s) here - and as noted elsewhere, a tad challenging for newcomers to sharpening mania.

What would you recommend for a weekend wordworker who wants sharp...and has no running water in the shop? Is there a similar "gang of seven" that would work for me?
Thanks,
Rob

[ian maybury]

Another. So if it's accepted that coarse waterstones chew up diamond plates, then what's the best method of flattening them? (even if my problem is only a wimpy Shapton)

ian

[David Weaver]

Loose grit on a hard surface or very coarse sandpaper. I'd vote for using the coarse sandpaper instead of the stone in the first place.

[Harold Burrell]

Loose grit on a hard surface or very coarse sandpaper. I'd vote for using the coarse sandpaper instead of the stone in the first place.

How coarse is "very coarse"?

[David Weaver]

How coarse is "very coarse"?

1/3rd the grit of the stone or so. Anything similar to the stone ends up grading the surface to a higher grit if a stone isn't friable.

A 2 foot run of PSA 60 grit sandpaper (decent quality stuff, like mirka) makes a better grinder for anyone who doesn't like to use a power grinder, anyway. Always has for me at least. I tried that route with a 3 foot run actually. You can grind pretty well with it, but then you have to put it somewhere when you're done. The virtue is that you never worry about flatness and once the initial "smartness" of the paper is gone, it works on bevels effectively at the same pace for quite a while.

I would never forgo a grinder if I didn't have to, though - only if I was in a place where I absolutely couldn't afford to have grinder swarf floating around anywhere at all.

[ian maybury]

Ta David...

[Jonathan McCullough]

I'd just like to add that David knows sharpening and that it would be hard to go wrong following his very sensible advice. There's a lot of info out there about sharpening but David has personal experience with almost every technique and medium. Some might say he ought to write a book.

[Bob Deroeck]

Hi,

I'm new to Neanderthal land, making a slow creep from powerville. This thread has been very educational.

I'd like to followup on Ian's question about what to use to flatten coarse waterstones since they seem to chew up diamond plates. I've used wet/dry sandpaper on glass with water to flatten an 800 grit waterstone and it worked fine, though it's a bit messy. Assuming a coarse waterstone only needs to be used infrequently for grinding, I don't see using wet/dry sandpaper as a problem for flattening that stone. But, it would be more convenient to use a diamond plate to flatten medium and fine grit water stones since they are used more frequently. I'd appreciate recommendations for the minimum grit size water stones that you would flatten with a diamond plate witihout fear of significantly shortening the lifetime of the diamond plate. For purposes of this question let's consider two diamond plates, the Atoma 400 and the DMT duosharp coarse (325 grit).

Thanks.

Bob