Which of these vises is best performer?

[Marko Milisavljevic]

I am down to the last design decision for my split-top Roubo workbench: tail vise. I have strong preference for Lee Valley products since they are 10 minutes away. Contenders are these four, functionally similar, choices:

Front Vise (http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=31137&cat=1,41659,41661&ap=1)
Quick Release Front Vise (http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=54873&cat=1,41659,41661&ap=1)
Quick Release Steel Bench Vise (http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=49980&cat=1,41659)
Jorgensen Quick-Release Steel Bench Vise (http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=65572&cat=1,41659)

Right now I'm inclined toward small Quick Release Front Vise. Aesthetically and cost-vise I would prefer wooden-face vises, but I have some concerns about them:

- Quick-release is nice but only of very reliable. How reliable is quick release on this wooden vise?
- Workbench top is around 4.25 thick. My concern with wooden-face vises is that the way face attaches to metal bracket seems somewhat flimsy, with just a couple of small screws, and that it might not withstand racking forces with that much leverage (although I would probably route into the workbench end about 1-1.5", there will only be around 3" of face above the metal part).

Playing with these vises at the store, they seem to suffer similarly from side-to-side racking.

If you think wooden vises are good, would you pick quick release or not?
If you think wooden vises are bad, which of the two steel vises would you pick?

Thanks.

[Jim Neeley]

Marco,

Personally, I cannot see routing your 4.25" thick benchtop down to 2.25 to take the Jorgensen, even though I really like their vises.
I'd expect a similar issue with the quick release steel vise. The wooden jawed vises mount to the bottom of your benchtop, so don't suffer with this *and* offer deeper jaws.

I cannot speak to the merits of the quick-release feature and racking but I have a comment on that.

As for small vs. large, it depends on how you plan to use it (and the width of each half of your top). If your primary usage is a single row of dog holes near and along the front of your bench I'd look for the design putting the screw nearest the dog hole line to minimize the racking force.

Just one guy's opinion here.. YMMV.

Jim

[Marko Milisavljevic]

Personally, I cannot see routing your 4.25" thick benchtop down to 2.25 to take the Jorgensen, even though I really like their vises.
I'd expect a similar issue with the quick release steel vise. The wooden jawed vises mount to the bottom of your benchtop, so don't suffer with this *and* offer deeper jaws.

Are you of the opinion that having wooden jaw stick out 4.5" above the metal bracket is not going to create any major issues considering the way it is mounted to the bracket (screws/bolts that hold jaw have only 1" or less width on solid side of metal bracket, so they will be subjected to quite a bit of leverage when top of the jaw is tight)? This is the main thing I am concerned with regards to using this vise.


As for small vs. large, it depends on how you plan to use it (and the width of each half of your top). If your primary usage is a single row of dog holes near and along the front of your bench I'd look for the design putting the screw nearest the dog hole line to minimize the racking force.

Primary use would be front dog holes, so I would have it flush against the front. Both small and large would fit, but small is cheaper, and it if I extend width of the jaw full 11" of the split top, it would offer about 5" space where work can be held vertically - I can't imagine when that would be useful vs just using the leg vise, but that won't stop me from imagining it might be.

[David Keller NC]

While I might recommend that you splurge and get the Lee-Valley designed tail vise because you're not likely to make another bench again anytime soon, and the extra $100 will be forgotten about long before then, if the choice is between what you've listed, I would buy the Jorgensen. It is what I have mounted to my current bench as a front vise, and it is extremely well-built. What one does with these vises is to rout a shallow mortise into the front of the bench (or the end) so that the inside jaw surface is flush with the bench face or end. Then you simply flush-mount the bottom of the vise to the bottom of the bench, and make an outside vise jaw of wood where you've drilled a hole (or several) that corresponds to the alignment of your dog hole strip. It isn't necessary (nor recommended) to excavate the bottom of your bench so that the top of the metal vise jaw is flush with the top of your bench.

[Marko Milisavljevic]

While I might recommend that you splurge and get the Lee-Valley designed tail vise because you're not likely to make another bench again anytime soon, and the extra $100 will be forgotten about long before then

I'm not falling for that :D The least expensive of my options is $56.60+handle, so that vise is up to $245 more after tax. I am starting up from nothing, so I need everything and have to be cautious with spending.

What is difficult for a beginner to understand, after just playing with vises in the store and reading books, is difference in actual use on a variety of projects. It seems to me that Veritas tail vise, compared to a simple vise I am considering:

+ Can support a workpiece fully on the bench, as opposed to partially unsupported as it extends over the gap (while it can still extend up to 7" out to hold a long piece)
+ It can clamp a piece up to 7" wide along front of the bench
- It cannot assist in holding an irregularly shaped object as can be done with 2 bench dogs on a more traditional vise (ok, I might never do that)
- It doesn't extend as far out as some of the other options (up to 14" with large vises which can come handy on occasion on a relatively short 72" bench)
- It cannot clamp a piece along end of the bench
- Rear side of front of the bench doesn't have as stable edge as a solid bench
+- Quick release is done with a lever rather than twist of the wrist.

At least that's what it seems like in theory. But as we all know, in theory, theory and practice are the same :)

[Archie England]

I have experience with Jorgensen and it's really a great vise. Compared to my other face vise, the green mfg face vise--not listed by you--the Jorgensen is a 10; the green, a 4. Best wishes to you.

I think that any will work. Face vises are simple to install and work quite well. I've installed wood pads on the inside so that no metal touches the wood. So far, so good!

[Matthew Hills]

This is being used as an end vise? If so, and you are working against bench dogs, you probably aren't going to clamp with as much force as you would with a face vise. (the bench provides the support, and the vise is just to stabilize it; clamping too hard can cause bowing)

How much overhang do you have between your leg and the end of your bench?
Almost all tail vise designs use quite bit of space; even the quick-release vises can use quite a bit, trading off against capacity. A thick chop can help if you are

I'm using a Jorgensen with a 3.25" top. I inset the fixed portion of the vise, but the top of the vise does not reach the top of the table. I've got a thick chop, with a dog hole in the chop, rather than using the metal dog that is built in to the vise (and which is almost too low)

I'd previously used this vise as a face vise, so was already familiar with the quick release style (loosen a turn or two, and the vise then slides freely). Some people don't like that style because you can't use the vise for spreading... I haven't missed this yet.

Paul Sellers (http://paulsellers.com) was recently recommending the Lee Valley quick release vise (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=49980&cat;=1,41659) for his students' benches. (they mount it as a face vise)

Matt

[Maurice Ungaro]

Marco,
A wonderful bench like your Roubo should have an equally nice vise to the front. Have you considered a wooden screw such as this? http://www.lakeerietoolworks.com/shop/category_2/Wood-Vise-Screw-Kits.html?shop_param=cid%3D%26
The basic kit is $120, and very customizable to fit your style of bench.

[Greg Berlin]

I';m putting a Lake Erie leg vise on mine. I received it but haven't installed it yet but it's an impressively large screw. Also, Lee Valley sells very large vise metal vise screws for around $30 a piece I think. That would make a nice leg vise too to save on cost. I'm use a 7" Non-Heavy duty vise that I picked up at an estate sale very cheaply as an end vice. It's a columbian vise. I mortised it into the end and put a large chop on it which will have a doghole drilled through it. My top is approx 3 1/4" thick.

http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m552/Berber5985/photo1-40.jpg
http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m552/Berber5985/photo2-40.jpg
http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m552/Berber5985/photo3-33.jpg

[Trey Palmer]

Are you of the opinion that having wooden jaw stick out 4.5" above the metal bracket is not going to create any major issues considering the way it is mounted to the bracket (screws/bolts that hold jaw have only 1" or less width on solid side of metal bracket, so they will be subjected to quite a bit of leverage when top of the jaw is tight)? This is the main thing I am concerned with regards to using this vise.


I don't think it will be a problem.

Like several others, I have a Jorgensen mounted with the face well below my benchtop and a tall wood vise face attached. It's a thin chop due to being mortised in (probably dumb) and the screws are quite short, though heavy (maybe #12?). I've only had it a year, and I haven't had any problems so far. And then he clamping pressure for an end vise should normally be considerably less.

I think the Jorgensen is a high quality vise and have no real experience with the others. I think it was kind of pointless to buy a metal vise that I was just gonna put a big wood chop on.

Whichever vise you get, I'd think you want the 7" version. Not only is it less expensive, but you can clamp on dog holes 2" from the front edge without racking it very much.

[Marko Milisavljevic]

How much overhang do you have between your leg and the end of your bench?
As much as needed - I'm waiting on vise decision so I can finalize bench design and start cutting the wood.


I'm using a Jorgensen with a 3.25" top. I inset the fixed portion of the vise, but the top of the vise does not reach the top of the table. I've got a thick chop, with a dog hole in the chop, rather than using the metal dog that is built in to the vise (and which is almost too low)

Any pictures? How did you handle bench side of the vise face? I find metal faces unsightly in a woodworking vise, so I was considering, if I go with a metal vise, to go bench > vise > end cap | wooden chop < metal face. That is, I was thinking about mortising the end cap on the inside rather than more typical outside.

[Marko Milisavljevic]

I think it was kind of pointless to buy a metal vise that I was just gonna put a big wood chop on.

Interesting you should say that... so far not a person in this thread voted for budget wooden-faced vises, regular or quick-release. On paper they seem perfect for the application - low cost, low weight, simple to install, should be good enough if main use is as a movable bench dog. In store they seemed to perform smoothly, easy to spin, without excessive racking. Why are they getting shunned? I'm assuming there is something wrong with them that is not obvious to a novice.

[Maurice Ungaro]

One reason is that a leg vise will give you more clamping space for holding boards vertically. Plus, it won't rack like a twin rod vise.

[Marko Milisavljevic]

One reason is that a leg vise will give you more clamping space for holding boards vertically. Plus, it won't rack like a twin rod vise.

Maurice - sorry about confusion, but the thread started about tail vise - the title doesn't make that clear. I'll try to change it. I will be using leg vise with LV metal screw and mounting in the way that makes it possible to easily switch to Benchcrafted should I become dissatisfied or rich.

[Maurice Ungaro]

Marko, sorry about that! I probably misread your post.

[Trey Palmer]

Interesting you should say that... so far not a person in this thread voted for budget wooden-faced vises, regular or quick-release. On paper they seem perfect for the application - low cost, low weight, simple to install, should be good enough if main use is as a movable bench dog. In store they seemed to perform smoothly, easy to spin, without excessive racking. Why are they getting shunned? I'm assuming there is something wrong with them that is not obvious to a novice.

Good question, Marko.

In my case I was (and still am) a n00b, and not living 5 minutes from Lee Valley, my access to good vise hardware was limited. My particular 5-minutes-away wallet-danger-zone is Highland Hardware, which is quite awesome in many ways but has a surprisingly limited vise selection. I knew I needed a vise but not quite how I was gonna configure it, and they had sale that was basically 25%-off-any-item-except-really-cool-stuff (like LN or Auriou or Festool). So I bought the only good QR vise they had which was the Jorgensen, the biggest-ticket item they had that I needed.

For my particular need I now think a wood QR face vise would have been better, if of equal quality. I ended up pretty much trying to imitate one anyway. See photo below.

The Jorgensen is a very good vise and I still think you might be best off with it. The reason is I think you want a narrow vise so you can use dog holes near the edge of your bench with minimum racking, and I think in real life the metal vises are narrower. But you can see them in person and I could be wrong. The metal vises are actually 7" wide and you can put a 7" chop on them, and they won't rack much with a dog only 1.5" off center. To me it looks like the smaller wooden vises will need at least a 9-10" face on them -- it's hard to tell, but I think the green QR Veritas face vise has about 7" between centers of the chop attachment holes.

Here's my Jorgensen 10" face vise -- you can probably see why I'd prefer a good quality QR wood-face vise if I had to do it again:


http://gtf.org/trey/ww/visechop2_small.jpg

[Zahid Naqvi]

I have a QR front vise, which I use as a tail vise, the front is a leg vise. I find the QR function to be quiet handy (and reliable), although I was perfectly fine on an older bench which had a small vise without the QR feature. Once you get used to a tool small nuances don't matter, but once you get used to the QR function you dearly miss it if it's taken away (something I notice when I switch between the leg vise and the QR tail vise). As for support through screws, I feel that's a non issue as well. In normal use there should be minimal vertical force on a vise, you should do all chopping on the table and not while the work piece is held in a vise. Racking is something you have to learn to manage, 90% of the vise hardware will have racking no matter how they are built, but with a large vise with two/three bars supporting the jaws the structural impact is much less. Still wouldn't recommend over tightening anything while holding it in the left or right 1/3rd of the vise.