Opinions on the best values in used tools.

[Biff Johnson]

Hello All,

If you've followed the thread about ideas for upgrading our local school woodshop, you know that we will be in the market for some new, used machinery for the shop.

In your opinion, what are the best values for tools? Consider that these tools don't get a ton of use (compared to a production shop) but they are used by a wide variety of people. Ruggedness, ease of adjustment and ready availability of parts are of paramount importance. Additionally machines so be easy to maintain.

Our wish list is sliding miter saw, bandsaw, cabinet table saw (or new fence/guard system),belt/disc sander combo and router table.

Thoughts?

[Joe Hillmann]

Is there a reason you don't just do a good tune up on the bandsaw you have now? I don't mean to sound mean but it seems like the limited funds you have could go farther repairing the tools you have rather than buying new ones because it looks like that is a pretty heavy duty machine.

[Jerrimy Snook]

I also think repairing what you have would be better than getting different used equipment. Especially if the current equipment is decent, good quality stuff. You never know what kind of repairs may be needed on the "new" used stuff.

You haven't stated what equipment you have, how about listing it and getting opinions on what you already have.

Another thought, rugged is more important than high precision for a school shop. Our local shop teacher quickly learned not to take his personal Forrest blades to use at school. It wasn't as if they were trying to but the kids destroyed them.

Jerrimy

[Tom Walz]

This is one great little school. Rated "Excellent" at all levels.

$250 total, annual budget for woodshop.

Here are pictures of the equipment. The table saw is so old they can't find a guard for it.

223223223224223225223226

Here is the wikipedia info.

Triangle Lake School
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Address
20264 Blachly Grange Road
Blachly, Oregon, Lane County, 97412
United States


Type Public
School district Blachly School District
Principal LeAnne Raze
Grades K-12
Number of students 148
Color(s) Green and gold
Athletics conference OSAA Mountain West League 1A-3
Mascot Lakers
Newspaper West Lane News

Website www.blachly.k12.or.us

Triangle Lake School is a K-12 public school in Blachly, Oregon, United States. The only school in the Blachly School District, in 2006 the school earned an "exceptional" rating from the Oregon Department of Education at all levels: elementary, middle school and high school. In April 2010, the Triangle Lake School Board of Directors voted to accept the proposal of the Triangle Lake Charter School Committee to make the school a charter school. Starting in the 2010-11 school year the school will be Triangle Lake Charter School. The school has 14 students to every teacher, 5 students fewer than the state average.

Academics
In 2008, 78% of the school's seniors received their high school diploma. Of 9 students, 7 graduated and 2 dropped out.

Demographics
The school has 148 students and 11 teachers. In the 2009 school year, the Blachly School District had 11 students classified as homeless by the Department of Education, or 8.4% of students in the district. The student population is 85% Caucasian, 9% Hispanic, 2% American Indian/Native Alaskan, and <1% Pacific Islander.

Going Charter
Due to budget cuts and falling enrollment in tough economic times, Triangle Lake School will become Triangle Lake Charter School starting in the 2010-11 school year. The charter would allow students who live out-of-district to attend the school. More hands-on curriculum and field trips will be added to the school's education plan. The charter board hopes that the new status will allow the school to better support students in the students' chosen fields. Along with the Triangle Lake School Board of Directors, the Triangle Lake Charter School Board will make decisions concerning the future of the school. The charter school will receive a $500,000 grant to help install the new curriculum program. The grant will be distributed over a period of three years. New curriculum will be based more on technology resource, natural resource, and health and fitness classes. A charter school is still a public school.

[Biff Johnson]

We certainly do repair what we have. I have tuned the bandsaw several times and it just suffers from some very worn components. It uses some unique 1/2" steel guides that are badly worn, wheels are worn and have play in the bearings, etc.

However as you can see most of these machines are from the 1960's and parts availability is scarce. I have been trying to source a shaft and bearings for the Delta belt sander for months and there are just no parts available. We could have some manufactured but that would exceed the value of the machine.

In the case of the tablesaw, I have tuned it and it does cut pretty well. However the problem is the fence and guide system was changed years ago. Somebody installed a Portland Tool fence system. Ever heard of them? I sure can't find anything out about them. Problem is, the factory guard wont fit with that fence, so the machine has been running without a blade guard. So do we spend $500-600 on an Incra or Biesemeyer system and a new guard?

The "newest" machine in the shop is a Grizzly G0551 planer circa 1980's. Machine is no longer in production but Grizzly tech support has helped me tune and repair it. I have purchased parts for it out of pocket. The miter saw is a Makita LS1020, which can't cut a board wider than about 4 1/2" and has a warped bed and needs a new guard. Better to spend $100 on it or hold out for a newer model with more capability and easier parts availability?

[Biff Johnson]

Here's some photos of the existing tools. 223227223231223228223229223230

[Jay Jeffery]

I'd see if you can get the word out that your school could use some donated equipment. $250 is not enough just to buy basic project supplies. If you have 3 phase power avliable, you should be able to get some seriously awesome, seriously cheap stuff. Used 3 phase equipment is really hard to sell and some businesses would probably do better getting a tax break than trying to sell or auction the stuff. If you don't have 3 phase power to your shop, see if you can get it as there is a good chance there is a feed to the school.

[Biff Johnson]

Thanks for the assist, Tom! It is a great school and we are really proud of it. I would just like to spend more time teaching skills than working on equipment, LOL!

Tomorrow I get to climb on the roof and see where the dust from the dust collector is going? It seems to be disappearing into space because the hopper is never full? The system has more patches than my boy's jeans!

Here's a table one of our high school students is working on. He found the slab in the woods near the school.223232

[Van Huskey]

I don't know enough about your budget etc to get into telling you how I would handle the situation BUT I can answer the question you proffered. The best values in machine right now are found in the medium duty industrial stuff. The light duty stuff (ie Delta and Powermatic) generally go for a decent price the real light to medium duty industrial stuff (Oliver, Northfield, Yates etc) tends to go cheaper because it is big and has three phase motors. The key is taking the time to look.

[John Lanciani]

Just a comment on the bandsaw; unless there's hidden damage $100 will have it working better than buying another used one. There are 6 bearings that are less than $10 each, guides, and a new belt and blade.

[David Kumm]

Van is correct that the better stuff is the better value, PM 72 vs 66 and Delta Rockwell 12-14 vs unisaw. I'm surprised- but happy- that you are allowed to consider used. Seems like most schools and school boards are throwing out the old and mandating Sawstops, machines with better guards, better dust collection etc with quality being a secondary issue. Not saying right or wrong but it does seem more the norm. Dave

[Joe Hillmann]

I would suggest avoiding any used delta tools in less they are free, even then I might pass on them. They were bought out recently and finding parts for anything that is more than a year or two old is very hit an miss (found this out the hard way) it seems like the only parts they have available are what they have in stock and aren't making new replacement parts for them, which is sad because they are good tools.

[Biff Johnson]

Well, at this point the school doesn't have the budget to fund any equipment, new or used for the shop. We are keeping the program afloat with a part time, retired teacher and two volunteers. There is approximately a $300 a year budget for everything...tools, supplies, etc. At this point we try to do a fundraiser when we can but of course the economy is in the tank, especially in this rural, timber-dependent area and we are also "competing" with other fundraisers for music, athletics, etc.

Some machines are simply out of commission for safety or maintenance. I resurrected the old Delta/Rockwell lathe this year but there is not enough tooling or safety equipment to start teaching the kids on it yet. That may be a project for next year.

Most of the lumber is donated from loggers and small time mills. As a result we get some beautiful but twisted, warped and rotted lumber that takes awhile to get whittled down to usable form. There is a discount lumber store in town (35 miles) where the teacher and I will pick up remnants when time/money permits. They are a good source of hobby woods like pedra and purpleheart. Of course the kids can purchase lumber for their own projects but most don't have the funds.

[Van Huskey]

I would suggest avoiding any used delta tools in less they are free, even then I might pass on them. They were bought out recently and finding parts for anything that is more than a year or two old is very hit an miss (found this out the hard way) it seems like the only parts they have available are what they have in stock and aren't making new replacement parts for them, which is sad because they are good tools.

Hit OWWM.com and you can probably find what you need. I must admit PM parts are generally easier to find but sometimes the prices hurt but better than not having them.

[Guy Belleman]

I would just like to spend more time teaching skills than working on equipment, LOL!


Biff,

I sympathesize with your plight. As a chemistry and physics teacher, every time I transfer to another school, I spend 3 years fixing stuff, cleaning up other peoples neglected mess, planning, politicking for funds, and educating the rest of the staff on how our programs work together.

I use students in the process. Although I would like students to only work on chemistry concepts, I find I can get a lot done when I explain the importance of an organized and clean area. I have had students paint walls and windows, clean glassware, label cabinets, organize equipment, gather Material Safety Data Sheets, replace parts on equipment, and the list of tasks goes on and on. After retiring from the military almost 20 years ago now, and although I was a tactics, weapons, and flight instructor, I find that I am now a much better teacher, encompassing all facets of the program. Students can get just as much from learning about the maintenance of machines, researching how to fix and tune them up, washing them, painting them, and it goes on and on. It may be your goal to have students work on wood for an entire class period, but it may not providing the best education. You also are not going to fix this quickly, it will take planning and a long term commitment. It generally takes me 3 years to fix a science department after arriving.

I only have your few comments and pictures to use a guide, but I do recommend that a couple of things be considered soonest. First, it appears that the shop is not organized well. Most of the tools have a good safe area, but some do not. Boards leaning against poles, students projects all over the place, stored items at the top of a stairs, long electric cords draping across the room from a ceiling drop outlet, all seem to me projects that need fixing now. Small projects that students could help fix with proper supervision. I know that I may be irritating you by now, but I only suggest that to fix your learning area and take it to a future vision, is going to take time addressing many issues that aren't going to have students always working with wood. But it still will be education, valuable learning and training for the students.

Actually in my own situation, after all of the years of work, I now have many students request to be my teacher aide, because they also have a pride in the science area, the science topics, and know that their time spent helping clean up, organize for upcoming labs, putting together new projects, and research ideas for me, will pay off more than anything else. I get students that I didn't even have, because they want to work with me, consequently, I get a ton more work done during my planning periods, or even during classes, if I have a good independent and able student aide. Nowadays, I am able to have students work on chemistry every single class day, but that hasn't always been the case over the last three years. All too well I remember that first initial shock when looking at what had been left by the previous two chemistry teachers I replaced (both fired), but when visitors come to the school, guess where they are first brought?

Hope I have provided some food for thought.

Guy

[Tom Walz]

Biff,

I picked up some odds and ends at Home Depot. Screwdirvers, drills, bits, insert drivers, hand saws, etc. This is pretty much typical Home Depot specials quality. I figured it was better than no tools at all. If you will assess these tools and let me know which need to be upgraded we can get into the stuff I sell.

I don't sell bandsaw blades but Jerrimy Snook does. We worked out a deal and he will call you with details.

Jerrimy brought up a good point. He is sort of holding back waiting to see what he can do. His point was that if everyone gave stuff at random you would have too much of some and not enough of the other. The tools I sent should be there today or tomorrow. One box UPS and the rest USPS.


Tom

[Biff Johnson]

Thank you so very, very much Tom! I will call Jerrimy today.

I will be sending Jerrimy my personal sharpening business as well, granted it's not much but it's the least I can do for his generosity!

[Van Huskey]

OK Tom & Jerrimy have already started this off but we have 60,000 people here. Lets do something about this! Biff, why don't you make a list of everything you could use and I will start a thread about it. There has to be a bunch of us that would give something to the cause. I will. Maybe everything won't be new and maybe it is just something sitting neglected in a drawer but I am sure we can get some stuff you need for the kids. Maybe if it goes well we could adopt a school each year and have a drive to help out shop classes. In any event think about getting a list together and some info about your shop program and we can get something done. I hope I am not breaking any forum rules but I don't think I am.

[carl zietz]

Biff
10 sets Peltor ear muffs (hearing protection) shipping from Sanderson Supply courtesy of Cooper Zietz Engineers Inc, should go out today. being shipped to the school at the above address to your attention.

Keep up the good work

Carl

[Kirk Poore]

I would suggest avoiding any used delta tools in less they are free, even then I might pass on them. They were bought out recently and finding parts for anything that is more than a year or two old is very hit an miss (found this out the hard way) it seems like the only parts they have available are what they have in stock and aren't making new replacement parts for them, which is sad because they are good tools.

From what I can see, I doubt that Delta has stocked those parts for a very long time. The much, much better news is that, unless a casting or something is broken, all you need to do is replace normal wear items (bearings, belts, bandsaw tires, guide blocks). For anything else, you can find replacements by advertising over on OWWM.org.

Kirk

[Biff Johnson]

I am very familiar with OWWM, since my personal shop has a lot of of old machinery. The problem here is that any time we have to devote to sourcing or making parts and repairing equipment is taking away from instruction time. We have taken some machinery to local repair shops before with moderate and expensive results. Naturally service calls that far out are very pricey.

I am all for resurrecting old equipment, especially since much of it is better than a lot of the stuff you buy today. However, at some point you have to cut your losses. Take the belt sander for instance; it is an impressive machine and very solid. However the belt roller shafts are so worn that they constantly walk the belt off the roller. Not good when you already have an inexperienced operator at the machine! I have spent hours trying to repair the shaft, welding and machining but there is no new parts available and buying used parts on an aging machine doesn't make much fiscal sense.

If this was equipment I was using at home I would be more willing to gamble with marginal repairs, especially since I know the nuances of my equipment. However when it comes to experienced kids I don't want to put them in that position.

[Don Jarvie]

Biff, have you checked out Woodlinks.org? Just a quick look at the site says its about woodworking education. At what level I'm not sure but it looks like a good place to look into.

As for tools. Have you looked into what safety standards need to be followed? So even if you got a guard for the TS will it still be enough for insurance purposes, etc. That being said maybe its time to sell some of the old equipment and put the money towards new machinery.

Have you and the teacher done an evaluation of the program to present to the administration to see what can be done money wise? I saw that it is becoming a charter school, any money for the shop?

Have you tried to find alumni of the program who do woodworking for a living or just alumni that have a sucessful business that may be able to contribute? Can items be made for the community that can in turn be sold for money for the school, ie, the Town Hall needs new benches and is willing to pay the school X to build them.

[Biff Johnson]

Just got off the phone with Jerrimy! What an outstanding guy! Between you and Tom Wolz we may have to name a wing after you!

Thank you so much! I hope if you are ever in the area you will stop in and see the difference you are making with these kids, maybe be a guest teacher?

Now I'm off to call Woodlinks....

[Jerrimy Snook]

Something Tom alluded to is my desire to help but not knowing exactly how or how much. It is easy to want to provide everything that you can, more difficult to do so. There are so many needs. I am sure many of you have felt the same. Something that came to mind, especially after Van's battle cry, what if SMC had a scholarship type program? Perhaps members could donate something and SMC could auction or sell it off to benefit schools. Of course I have no idea the complexity of an endeavor like that nor do I know if this is a direction that this community would like to head. What I have seen in the last several months is SMC members approaching this community in an effort to better equip their schools.

After talking to Tosh, I am aware that what has been posted is not all that has happened for this little school. Phone conversations, private messages, and shipments have filled Tosh's time in the last week. The response has been joyfully overwhelming. He is currently wading through the suggestions, making phone calls, finding suppliers and resources that have been out of his radar. All this while teaching the students, his regular job and living his personal life.

Tosh, Thank you for the kind words! I'm glad to be of service. I am just sharing what my Father and my dad have given me. However, Dave Snook, my dad and employer, deserves your thanks not I.

Jerrimy

[Biff Johnson]

Thanks Carl! You folks are all fantastic!

[Biff Johnson]

Fellow Creekers,

Allow me to say that I have been overwhelmed at the genorosity that has poured forth. When I made that post a few days ago it was a little bit out of frustration. I had hit a road block with the wood shop program and didn't know where to turn. In fact, I was a little disheartened that I couldn't do better for the kids!

Well, let me say that you all have restored my faith! Now there are so many acts of kindness pouring in that I'm a overwhelmed in a very good way!!!

The consensus is that everybody wants to help but I haven't been clear on our precise needs. I'm going to ponder over the weekend and discuss it more in depth with the teacher. In the next few days I will make a post of itemized needs. If you wish to donate you can PM me and I will remove the item from the list. Maybe forum mods could help to organize these posts in a clearer fashion?

Thank you everybody. You are a fantastic group!!!

[Bruce Wrenn]

A couple of observations from a former teacher who also had no budget. Do you have some one who can weld. The Biesmeyer fence is all stock size steel. 2 X 3 14 ga rectangular tube, a piece of 2 X 3, 1/4" angle iron, and a piece of 2 X 2 1/4" angle iron., plus some misc parts for locking mechanism, which will fit into a flat rate box from post office. I built mine while teaching as the old one on the saw was a royal PITA. The guides on BS just need to be dressed. Bearings can be bought dirt cheap at Fasten All, and McFeelys has the tires for bandsaw for about $30 with dollar shipping thru March. PM me if you want locking parts and plans to build a Biesemeyer clone. Nice thing about kids helping to restore machines is they take ownership pride in them.

[Mike Henderson]

If it's for a school, and you need a cabinet saw, I'd highly recommend spending the money for a SawStop. I believe SS will give you a break on the price (for a school). Using a cabinet saw without the protection of a SS could get you into a lawsuit that will cost a lot more than the cost of the saw.

Mike

[Biff Johnson]

A SS would definitely be a dream saw for the shop, unfortunately they are way out of budget right now. I have contacted them and they offer some school discounts but are still pretty spendy. A much larger school in this region sold a bunch of their equipment to raise money for a SS.

[Augusto Orosco]

Biff,

I was trying to PM you but your inbox is full!

[Stephen Cherry]

One thing that I would consider is just asking for a machine. If I was involved with a program like yours, I would cruise the local craigslist for the machine you want, and shoot out an email and ask for it. Include an invitation for the seller to come and tour the school and see the program, and maybe meet some of the kids. Maybe contact local businesses or woodworking clubs, and ask.

Lots of machines are just sitting around waiting for someone to use them, and some of their owners would be delighted to donate these machines.

[frank shic]

panel master 3 would be a great and safe way to let the students build raised panel doors. it's a little less than $4k though!

[Biff Johnson]

Hi...I'm not sure what's going on, it says I have room for 70 messages?

You can email me at: iwouldworkwood@gmail.com if easier.

Thanks!

[Biff Johnson]

Heck yeah! I will chip in $1 if you can cover the rest!:)

[Augusto Orosco]

Odd... anyway, just sent you a PM and it went through this time!



Hi...I'm not sure what's going on, it says I have room for 70 messages?

You can email me at: iwouldworkwood@gmail.com if easier.

Thanks!

[Biff Johnson]

Glad we connected, Augusto! Thank you so much for your generosity!