micro bevel question

[James Vogts]

Guys,

I am just getting into hand planes. I have a #4 V3 woodriver hand plane, the veritas honing guide and king waterstones. My blade has a microbevel on it. Now when I want to sharpen the blade again, can I just sharpen the microbevel, or do I need to get rid of the microbevel and start over?

[John Coloccia]

Guys,

I am just getting into hand planes. I have a #4 V3 woodriver hand plane, the veritas honing guide and king waterstones. My blade has a microbevel on it. Now when I want to sharpen the blade again, can I just sharpen the microbevel, or do I need to get rid of the microbevel and start over?

Just sharpen the microbevel. Even better, keep a strop nearby and strop often. Your edge will last a lot longer that way.

Anyhow, the whole point of a microbevel is so you don't have to keep sharpening the primary bevel. That's a lot of very hard metal to work!

It's the same with a hollow bevel. Once you establish the hollow, you're really only sharpening on the edges of the bevel....most of it doesn't touch the flat stone. When you start creating a flat that's large enough to take a lot of time to sharpen, you reestablish the hollow.

With a microbevel, when you've enlarged it enough that it takes more than a few seconds to sharpen and hone, just reestablish the primary bevel and start over :)

[James Vogts]

I had a hunch that was the case. I will have to look into getting strop. Thanks.

Another question. I have glued up some soft maple that is about 15" wide by 40" long. I used the hand plane across the grain to flatten glue up, so it was somewhat rough after that. then I ran the hand plane with the grain to smooth it out. It works pretty well but I am getting some tearout, and right when I start the plane on the glue up I get some chatter. Any suggestions?

[Ron Kellison]

What John said! Although I prefer a piece of MDF with either 0.5 or 0.1 micron diamond paste to a strop.

Regards,

Ron

[John Coloccia]

Is it quilted or otherwise figured?

[James Vogts]

Is it quilted or otherwise figured?

Not really. I started with a board that was 13" wide rough cut, and cut it down to 3 pieces so that I could run it through my 6" jointer. Plus another 3" wide board to get to my 15" board. I have glued those 4 board together. It does have a few small knots that are tearing out around them, plus one large knot that is a real pain in the butt. I normally wouldn't worry about the knots, as I always sand the panels flat and smooth. It is pretty straight grained soft silver maple. I can take some pictures of it, if that would help.

[James Vogts]

no pictures tonight. My new camera doesn't come with a cord to hook it up to the computer :mad:

[Jim Koepke]

It works pretty well but I am getting some tearout, and right when I start the plane on the glue up I get some chatter. Any suggestions?

I have never seen or used a Woodriver plane.

Chatter is the blade bouncing in the cut. If it happens with very light cuts, then it could have a few causes.

A thin blade will chatter more than a heavier blade.

How close is the chip breaker set to the edge of the blade?

Check the bevel angle on the blade. 25º is good for softwoods but can be a cause chatter.

Planing around knots is always a pain. Even with the lightest of cuts the wood is prone to tear out, often much deeper than other areas.

jtk

[James Vogts]

I've got the chip breaker about 1/32" from the edge of the blade. The main bevel is set at 25 degrees.

I think tonight I am going to get rid of my micro bevel, and start over. The polished micro bevel did seem like it had a slight crown to it, aka it wasn't straight across the blade. I think I just need more practice sharpening/planing. I do enjoy working with hand planes.

[Terry Beadle]

On stubborn wood, you need a sharp blade. Very lite cuts, as in shavings of 1 or 2 thou. Very knarly wood you want a 1/2 thou shaving if you can get it.

The primary bevel set to 25 degrees is fine. Your micro bevel should be in the 30 to 35 degree range. I would recommend 35 degree micro bevel and a 1 ~ 2 thou cut.

The blade edge should have some crown to it for the type of planing you are doing IMO. Read up on David Charlesworth's information about how to sharpen a plane blade with a curved or crowned cutting edge. A should plane should be straight across but a plane used for jack plane work, even though it's a smoother, should have a crown of about 2 ~ 3 thou. Put a dead flat piece of hard wood ( like rock maple, tight grained ) on the cutting edge and hold it up to a strong back light. You should be able to see daylight at the edges of the cutting edge. More pronounced in jack planes but a smoother should have some light at about 1 ~ 2 thou. This will allow the plane to smooth the surface and not leave blade cut edges on either side of the plane blade cuts.

A Woodriver #4 set up this way can be used as a jack but you would do well to obtain a #5 or #5 1/2 or a #6 for your jack plane work. A number #7 or #8 would be ideal for planing wood that had just been cross grain flattened with tear out issues as you indicated your was.

Having the right plane for the right job is not mandatory. You can prepare stock with your #4, but it will take more care ( read skill ) to get to flat and it will be much longer to do it with a #4 set up for smoothing as it normally is. With a #7 you should be taking 5 thou to 6 thou shavings where as a normal smoother is taking 1 ~ 2 thou shavings.

I did read a post one time of a guy who only had a block plane. He still got good results but ti took a lot of arm work to get there. Lots of looking down the flat of the work piece, marking with a pencil where it had raised areas, and working them down bit by bit.

Happy planing and keep us posted !

[Jack Curtis]

I've got the chip breaker about 1/32" from the edge of the blade. The main bevel is set at 25 degrees.

I think tonight I am going to get rid of my micro bevel, and start over. The polished micro bevel did seem like it had a slight crown to it, aka it wasn't straight across the blade. I think I just need more practice sharpening/planing. I do enjoy working with hand planes.

I use mostly Japanese planes and chisels, so I never use micro bevels. That's carried over into western style edges, too. They're not necessary and may make it more difficult to do good work when starting out.

[James Vogts]

On stubborn wood, you need a sharp blade. Very lite cuts, as in shavings of 1 or 2 thou. Very knarly wood you want a 1/2 thou shaving if you can get it.

The primary bevel set to 25 degrees is fine. Your micro bevel should be in the 30 to 35 degree range. I would recommend 35 degree micro bevel and a 1 ~ 2 thou cut.

The blade edge should have some crown to it for the type of planing you are doing IMO. Read up on David Charlesworth's information about how to sharpen a plane blade with a curved or crowned cutting edge. A should plane should be straight across but a plane used for jack plane work, even though it's a smoother, should have a crown of about 2 ~ 3 thou. Put a dead flat piece of hard wood ( like rock maple, tight grained ) on the cutting edge and hold it up to a strong back light. You should be able to see daylight at the edges of the cutting edge. More pronounced in jack planes but a smoother should have some light at about 1 ~ 2 thou. This will allow the plane to smooth the surface and not leave blade cut edges on either side of the plane blade cuts.

A Woodriver #4 set up this way can be used as a jack but you would do well to obtain a #5 or #5 1/2 or a #6 for your jack plane work. A number #7 or #8 would be ideal for planing wood that had just been cross grain flattened with tear out issues as you indicated your was.

Having the right plane for the right job is not mandatory. You can prepare stock with your #4, but it will take more care ( read skill ) to get to flat and it will be much longer to do it with a #4 set up for smoothing as it normally is. With a #7 you should be taking 5 thou to 6 thou shavings where as a normal smoother is taking 1 ~ 2 thou shavings.

I did read a post one time of a guy who only had a block plane. He still got good results but ti took a lot of arm work to get there. Lots of looking down the flat of the work piece, marking with a pencil where it had raised areas, and working them down bit by bit.

Happy planing and keep us posted !

Thanks for the info. I will check out Charlesworth's info. I do have a #5 that was my Grandpa's, but I am still in the process of tuning it up. The blade is pretty rough, but the sole and frog are in pretty good shape.

[Jim Neeley]

James,

After tuning up the rest of the plane, consider putting the original blade and chipbreaker aside and replacing it with a more substantial set such as http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2080171/29546/Matched-Chip-Breaker-and-Blade-Set-2W-for-Stanley-Handplanes-4-and-5.aspx as it will *dramatically* improve the performance of the plane. Besides using good modern steels (stay sharper longer), they are much thicker (increased rigidity/decreased chatter) and are a lot easier to control.

The bodies of some of those old planes, once tuned, are pretty sweet! :)

Jim

[John Coloccia]

I thought the Woodriver planes came with some pretty good irons right out of the box. At least I thought it did when I've played with them.

[James Taglienti]

I use mostly Japanese planes and chisels, so I never use micro bevels. That's carried over into western style edges, too. They're not necessary and may make it more difficult to do good work when starting out.

I think a micro or secondary bevel is great, and makes it easier to do good work. Sharpen faster, less wear on stones, easier to repeat. I never understood why some people are opposed to it.

[Jack Curtis]

I think a micro or secondary bevel is great, and makes it easier to do good work. Sharpen faster, less wear on stones, easier to repeat. I never understood why some people are opposed to it.

And I don't. Time to agree to disagree on several issues?

[Jim Neeley]

Please ignore this post. For *some* obscure reason I had it in my mind you were talking about a vintage plane. I don't know if I posted this in the wrong thread (very possible) or simply flipped a floppy (also possible! :) )


James,

After tuning up the rest of the plane, consider putting the original blade and chipbreaker aside and replacing it with a more substantial set such as http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2080171/29546/Matched-Chip-Breaker-and-Blade-Set-2W-for-Stanley-Handplanes-4-and-5.aspx as it will *dramatically* improve the performance of the plane. Besides using good modern steels (stay sharper longer), they are much thicker (increased rigidity/decreased chatter) and are a lot easier to control.

The bodies of some of those old planes, once tuned, are pretty sweet! :)

Jim

[John Coloccia]

Please ignore this post. For *some* obscure reason I had it in my mind you were talking about a vintage plane. I don't know if I posted this in the wrong thread (very possible) or simply flipped a floppy (also possible! :) )

I think it was my fault, Jim. I think you were responding to his antique #5 (his grandfather's). I missed that and thought he was still talking about his Woodriver plane. My bad. :)

[John Coloccia]

Not sure why hollow grinds and microbevels are frowned upon for Japanese planes and chisels. I tend to keep a straight bevel, just because of tradition, but I do have one or two chisels that are hollow ground with no bad effects. Then again, I hollow grind them on my Tormek, which has a larger wheel than a standard grinder, so maybe that makes a difference?

Anyhow, I tend to keep them straight just because of the tradition and for no deep reason...nothing wrong with that, I suppose. They don't mind hollowing the backs, though...

[Mike Henderson]

And I don't. Time to agree to disagree on several issues?
I can't see any problem with a microbevel. The only part of the blade that cuts is the edge. I suppose you could grind your primary bevel so fine (say 10*) that the metal could flex, but with a primary bevel of about 25* I can't see that happening.

I grind almost all of my cutting tools - chisels and plane blades - with a smaller primary bevel and then add a microbevel to the angle I need. So if I have a chisel I'll use for chopping dovetails, I'll add a microbevel at a higher angle, maybe 35*, because I'll pound on that chisel.

Using a microbevel allows me to quickly customize my tools to the work and to re-sharpen faster than if I had to grind the whole bevel again.

Mike

[Jack Curtis]

Not sure why hollow grinds and microbevels are frowned upon for Japanese planes and chisels. I tend to keep a straight bevel, just because of tradition, but I do have one or two chisels that are hollow ground with no bad effects. Then again, I hollow grind them on my Tormek, which has a larger wheel than a standard grinder, so maybe that makes a difference?...

Seems pretty obvious to me. A Japanese chisel is a combination of soft iron, usually wrought of some sort, on top and tool steel on bottom. If you remove metal at roughly the point where they intersect, the structure of the soft steel is weakened, thus rendering it less likely to work as backing for the tool steel. Now this may be more or less severe, several have said they hollow grind their Japanese chisels with no ill effect; but they're not running tests on this. Neither am I, to be honest; but it just doesn't seem smart to weaken the structure, even if by a little bit.

[John Coloccia]

Seems pretty obvious to me. A Japanese chisel is a combination of soft iron, usually wrought of some sort, on top and tool steel on bottom. If you remove metal at roughly the point where they intersect, the structure of the soft steel is weakened, thus rendering it less likely to work as backing for the tool steel. Now this may be more or less severe, several have said they hollow grind their Japanese chisels with no ill effect; but they're not running tests on this. Neither am I, to be honest; but it just doesn't seem smart to weaken the structure, even if by a little bit.

Well, it doesn't seem obvious to me that a microbevel or a hollow grind is of any significance. It's not obvious to David Charlesworth either, as he hollow grinds his Japanese chisels too. It may not be "smart", and you're correct that I'm not running tests. All I do is sharpen my tools and use them to build things.

While there may be some truth to what you're saying, I'm finding that general woodworking is very much like instrument making. There is a lot of myth and lore that's been handed down. Some of it is correct for the right reasons, some of it is correct for the wrong reasons, some of it has some truth to it but isn't realized in practice, and a lot of it's just wrong. If enough of us start posting that they hollow grind with no problem, eventually that will invent a new "rule" that a hollow grind is okay. Then someday, someone will hollow grind a mortise chisel to 25 degrees, break it and come to SMC declaring that the hollow grind weakened the chisel and that you shouldn't hollow grind Japanese chisels....

[James Vogts]

I've got a buddy coming in town today for the weekend. I am going to try and get down in the shop Sunday night to revisit sharpening everything.

On a side note. We got a Nikon D3100 camera. Didn't come with a cord to hook it up to the computer. So I installed the software from the camera on to our mac book. I just happen to have a usb cord, from my smart phone, that will hook up to the camera. Except now the program won't recognize the camera to import the pictures. My wife is more tech savy, so she is going to take a look at it.

On another side note. I have been playing the guitar, and have became very interested in trying to make one. This is one of the reasons I have been getting more into hand tools, plus the two hand planes I got from my late grandfather. I got guitar making: tradition and technology for christmas, and have read through it. But first, I have a crib to make as my wife is due in August with our first.

So there is my life in a nutshell, lol.

[James Taglienti]

Better start that crib!!

[Jim Foster]

Seems pretty obvious to me. A Japanese chisel is a combination of soft iron, usually wrought of some sort, on top and tool steel on bottom. If you remove metal at roughly the point where they intersect, the structure of the soft steel is weakened, thus rendering it less likely to work as backing for the tool steel. Now this may be more or less severe, several have said they hollow grind their Japanese chisels with no ill effect; but they're not running tests on this. Neither am I, to be honest; but it just doesn't seem smart to weaken the structure, even if by a little bit.

With a 10" wheel, the hollow grind will be about .010" or ten thousandths past where a flat grind would leave you, and this gets diminished with every hone until grinding again. So, I think it's an urban myth at some level, unless you use a 6" or smaller wheel. What I would be more curious about is if you grind with a dry wheel and heat up the blade, if the dissimilar metals may expand differently or be more prone to losing the bond between them.

Disclosure: I will hollow grind my Japanese Chisels on a 10" wet wheel, so I guess I am in one of the two camps.

[Jim Foster]

On a side note. We got a Nikon D3100 camera. Didn't come with a cord to hook it up to the computer. So I installed the software from the camera on to our mac book. I just happen to have a usb cord, from my smart phone, that will hook up to the camera. Except now the program won't recognize the camera to import the pictures. My wife is more tech savy, so she is going to take a look at it.

So there is my life in a nutshell, lol.

If you can plug the camera into the computer, you should be able to see the files as an attached drive via Windows Explorer on a PC, not sure about a Mac. The camera probably has to be turned on also. You might also have a card reader built in to the computer if you look around on it which would allow you to take the card out of the camera and insert it into the computer, where again it should be treated like an external drive with the files in it.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I've usually been able to just plug a camera into my Mac (like you've done) and see the photos using iPhoto, which I believe comes with most macs, without installing any drivers or anything - have you tried that?

[Jack Curtis]

Well, it doesn't seem obvious to me that a microbevel or a hollow grind is of any significance. It's not obvious to David Charlesworth either, as he hollow grinds his Japanese chisels too. It may not be "smart", and you're correct that I'm not running tests. All I do is sharpen my tools and use them to build things....

I would expect almost all used western chisels to have hollow grinds, given wheel grinders. As to myths, there's often a lot to them (Helen of Troy, e.g.), but not always (all the animal parts the Chinese ingest in hopes of perpetual sexual prowess). So take your pick. My Japanese chisels are sufficiently expensive that I don't hollow grind them, as I was taught by Japanese and people who've spent a lot of time in Japan doing woodworking. It seems more rational to me to leave the bevels whole.

[Mike Henderson]

I don't have a dog in this fight because I don't use Japanese chisels. However, I will comment that I've never heard a single story of a Japanese chisel failure because someone hollow ground it, or put a microbevel on it. It seems that all we hear is that someone "said" don't hollow grind them, or don't put a microbevel on one. I can't even think of a theoretical reason why either would be a problem, unless either the hollow grind or the primary bevel was done to great excess.

Mike

[Stuart Tierney]

I don't have a dog in this fight because I don't use Japanese chisels. However, I will comment that I've never heard a single story of a Japanese chisel failure because someone hollow ground it, or put a microbevel on it. It seems that all we hear is that someone "said" don't hollow grind them, or don't put a microbevel on one. I can't even think of a theoretical reason why either would be a problem, unless either the hollow grind or the primary bevel was done to great excess.

Mike


I cannot say I've ever heard anyone say the above to me personally, at least not those whose opinion would be something I'd pay attention to.

And, I've never asked.


However, here's my opinion and the opinion of the folks who probably made the Japanese chisel.

It's ok to hollow grind them if you wish. It's your tool, you can do with it whatever you like. Contrary to popular belief, there are very few examples of something needing to be 'correct' when it comes to Japanese tools, and even going off the reservation won't result in anything more than perhaps a raised eyebrow.


When it comes to hollow grinding a Japanese blade however, there will be a raised eyebrow and a "why are you going to that much trouble?" and depending on how you go about it "why are you taking such a big risk?"

That soft backing is not there solely because of tradition although that's one of the key original reasons why blades were made in this manner. Now, the reason is partly ease of forging and partly ease of sharpening. The soft steel is easy to abrade on any abrasive you can care to name, and focuses sharpening efforts where they're best executed, right at the edge.

Because a solid blade, such as a relatively modern Western/European blade does not have that soft metal forming part of the edge and the steel is generally less sensitive to heat, it's quite reasonable to hollow grind or microbevel these blades. You do lose the ability to use that bevel face as a reference surface if you microbevel, and you do need to re-establish the un-sharpened area occasionally, but that can be either a benefit or detraction depending on how you look at it.

(And while we're on microbevels, every solid HSS chisel made here in Japan recommends grinding a primary bevel and then sharpening a secondary bevel.)

In the end, the simple fact of the matter is this;

If you have good quality Japanese chisels, then hollow grinding is unnecessary, adds complexity and potential risk to what should be a simple operation. If you have good quality, fast cutting stones, then hollow grinding a Japanese blade is even more pointless. Even a massive tataki (striking) chisel is no trouble for faster stones to deal with, and often you'll get the job done before a grinder gets to speed.

But, you're allowed to do it to your heart's content.

(I was hoping to stay right the heck out of this, but things were starting to look like they needed a kick in the right direction.)

Stu.

[Mike Henderson]

So what I understand from your posting, Stuart, is that there's nothing wrong with hollow grinding a Japanese chisel, but because of the softer lamination on the top, sharpening the full face of the bevel is somewhat quicker than if the whole chisel was harder steel, as in a western chisel. Is that interpretation correct?

And further, from your posting, it appears that a microbevel on a Japanese chisel is essentially the same as in a Western chisel. That there's nothing basically wrong with it but some people may feel that it's not necessary because they can sharpen the whole bevel fast enough that they don't see a speed advantage in the microbevel.

So the whole thing (both hollow grinding and microbevels) comes down to how fast you can sharpen the whole bevel of a Japanese chisel compared to how how fast you can sharpen the whole bevel of a western chisel. Those who believe that the hollow grind or the microbevel on Japanese chisels speeds up their work are just as correct as those who wish to re-establish the whole bevel.

Am I paraphrasing you correctly?

Mike

[Stuart Tierney]

By paragraph...

#1, Yeah, pretty much.

#2, Yeah, pretty much.

#3, No, not really

The thing is that on a proper chisel with proper, wrought iron or specially made soft steel backing, it's so rapidly sloughed off when sharpening that the perception that a micro/hollow bevel will be faster is so unlikely it's not worth the extra steps to establish that second bevel or hollow grind.

However, if you find yourself with chisels that are not quite up to that standard, then it is definitely possible you could save some time using a not-flat bevel. Cheaper chisels use mild steel backing, which isn't anywhere near as easy to abrade with stones.

I could go on here explaining a few more things, but I'm running a fever (flu) and am generally out of sorts. I also find myself thinking that anything else I write here now will either fall on deaf ears or be twisted into something removed from what the actual reality is. The simple fact is that you can whatever you want to your own tools and anyone telling you to do otherwise is only background noise. At the same time, there are on occasion good reasons for doing something in a particular way and to disregard them is a folly best avoided.

Stu.

[Jason Coen]

Nice post, Stu.

Get well.

[Mike Henderson]

By paragraph...

#1, Yeah, pretty much.

#2, Yeah, pretty much.

#3, No, not really

The thing is that on a proper chisel with proper, wrought iron or specially made soft steel backing, it's so rapidly sloughed off when sharpening that the perception that a micro/hollow bevel will be faster is so unlikely it's not worth the extra steps to establish that second bevel or hollow grind.

However, if you find yourself with chisels that are not quite up to that standard, then it is definitely possible you could save some time using a not-flat bevel. Cheaper chisels use mild steel backing, which isn't anywhere near as easy to abrade with stones.

I could go on here explaining a few more things, but I'm running a fever (flu) and am generally out of sorts. I also find myself thinking that anything else I write here now will either fall on deaf ears or be twisted into something removed from what the actual reality is. The simple fact is that you can whatever you want to your own tools and anyone telling you to do otherwise is only background noise. At the same time, there are on occasion good reasons for doing something in a particular way and to disregard them is a folly best avoided.

Stu.
Okay, I'm confused as to why paragraph 1 & 2 are correct but paragraph 3 is not. As I wrote it, paragraph 3 is simply condensing the material in paragraphs 1 and 2 into a single paragraph.

Your comments below the initial comments on the paragraphs say that "it's not worth the extra steps to establish the secondary bevel or hollow grind" but that's an opinion. If someone else felt it was worth while they would be just as correct as the opinion you expressed.

Mike

[I suppose I'd phrase it something like this, "Many people believe that the backer iron on Japanese chisels abrades so quickly that very little time is gained by using a hollow grind or a microbevel. But there's nothing inherently wrong with using either."]

[David Weaver]

I think Odate mentioned in his book that a microbevel and a hollow grind are not appropriate. I don't have the book handy to confirm that, but it's not much of a concern. The reasoning behind that is (if it isn't stated directly) that if the hollow grind is deep or if the primary grind is shallow when microbeveling, that the iron or soft backing steel (whatever is used) won't be over the edge to support it.

But if you have a tormek, the hollow is shallow and of no consequence really (and any fear about it being of consequence can be taken away by increasing the bevel angle very slightly). With a microbevel, if the primary bevel is where it would've otherwise been without a microbevel, and the microbevel a couple of degrees steeper, the chisel will still be just as tough as it would've been at a single primary bevel.

Stu is exactly right about the cheap chisels with mild steel vs. the chisels where a pure grade of wrought iron has been chosen deliberately. The wrought iron will come off on any stone so fast and in a way that's pleasing (in terms of tactile sense) that there's no reason to fool around with a hollow grind, especially on something that will not fiddle with the temper of a very low temper temperature like white steel (i'm sure blue's temper at rc65 is also pretty low).

The cheaper chisels aren't that nice to sharpen (the ones with mild steel or a grade of iron that's not that soft), but they can be sharpened fine. The only time they're really obnoxious is when the lamination of the hard steel is both really hard and really thick. Even some of the mid grade chisels that are promoted, if they don't have a wrought backing and they are super hard, they can be a booger in regular use. Never to a point where you'd come close to saying you can't sharpen them, but to a point where if you have spent some times on chisels with a nice backing, you'll really prefer the chisels with the nice soft backing no matter which of the two holds an edge longer.

[Mike Kelsey]

I have the Woodriver #4 & #5 and the both perform quite wonderfully. I was using the jack the other day to flatten a board & it was taking pretty thick slices easily. The #4 is simply smooth as silk, fine shavings. I put a micro bevel on both. For their purposes, they seem to perform as well as my LN #8 jointer

[Mike Henderson]

I have a WoodRiver block plane and it works great. It's the copy of the Stanley 65. Of course, some people love a knuckle joint lever cap and some people hate them.

Mike