What if we asked Mfg's to....

[Bill Wyko]

Make at least one tool in the USA? All the big companies use to make tools here in the USA. Heck most of my tools are so old that almost all of them were. Remember when Delta, Powermatic and so many more use to make stuff here. I do, the ones I have are the heaviest things you could ever lift in their catagory. I think it would be cool if the big tool makers made a line of American made tools and promote them as just that. Powermatic has their new black tools, imagine if they were also made in the USA. Even if they were made by mostly by automation, it would still set an example of what we can do here and provide new jobs. What's your take everyone?

[Van Huskey]

Make at least one tool in the USA? All the big companies use to make tools here in the USA. Heck most of my tools are so old that almost all of them were. Remember when Delta, Powermatic and so many more use to make stuff here. I do, the ones I have are the heaviest things you could ever lift in their catagory. I think it would be cool if the big tool makers made a line of American made tools and promote them as just that. Powermatic has their new black tools, imagine if they were also made in the USA. Even if they were made by mostly by automation, it would still set an example of what we can do here and provide new jobs. What's your take everyone?

Consider the PM 141 14" bandsaw listed for just under $2,000 when it last sold, maybe 1997, the question is can they come to market with something we would actually buy. The new Delta TS is an interesting anomoly though.

[Tom Walz]

Many of them do. However some of them also forced to carry some foreign items in order to stay competitive.

These are all US companies and many of them truly are the best in the world.
At CarbideProcessors.com
1. Whiteside Machine Router Bits (most of them)
2. Woodpeckers
3. Incra
4. Southeast Tool router bits (most of them)
5. Niagara End Mills
6. SGS Carbide Burs
7. Vortex router bits
8. Triumph Twist Drill
9. World’s Best Saw Blades (Made in Oregon on US machinery – double points.)
10. Imperial Blades (Oscillating Blades)

We also just went live today with
Motherbearknives.com
A. Columbia River Knife and Tool
B. Leatherman

[Adam Cavaliere]

Heck most of my tools are so old that almost all of them were.

Bill,

Do you think that the fact that most of your tools are still functional from when they were made in the US would affect your decision as to whether or not to purchase a new tool? If they still work, have you been putting off purchasing new because the tools you would consider are made from companies with foreign plants?

I know I would have considered buying American and would have focused on that product much more, but only to certain price point. Just getting into woodworking can be an expensive proposition as you start looking at all of the tools one would want. The manufacturers would have to find a way to be somewhat cost competitive, even if they could justify a small premium for being made here.

[David Kumm]

Good luck with that. US consumers demand low cost above quality except for the small upper end market. Niche companies like Lie Nielsen, Benchcrafted, and Bridge City operate in that world and seem to do well. Large companies need volume and while promoting "made in America" sounds good, it doesn't provide the numbers needed to compete with low cost stuff. I am personally familiar with a small US manufacturer of motorcycle accessories who fight Asian copies and patent infringements daily. The guy who owns the company is an absolute fanatic about quality and his parts all look like jewelry. When he sells or dies it is unlikely that the quality edge will remain sufficient to allow them to charge a premium for the products. The superiority necessary to draw consumers away from price has to be well beyond the upcharge. In the end most get what they want. Cheap stuff that works OK. Dave

[Bill Wyko]

I wouldn't be asking them to make everything, but maybe with automation technology, they could reduce the work force to compete with the imports but still provide jobs. All I would be looking for is a select line of tools to get their feet wet. I buy from over 1/2 the companies listed above and I can tell you, I would put them up against any imported tool of its kind and I bet they would hold their own.

Congratulations Tom, hope it is successful for you. I'll check it out myself.

[johnny means]

I could see it now Porter-Cable launches some awesome new product line and priced a bit above the average. Lowes is swamped with potential buyers demanding them to match the HF 50% off coupon. :rolleyes:

[Van Huskey]

I should have mentioned two other machine companies one of which I bought from and one of which I plan to buy from for my new shoip.

Woodmaster sanders and planer/molders
Vega OES and Lathes

Quite frankly you can outfit a shop with all US made new machines but you don't see people buying them, partly because of cost.

If people had the money and/or got off their wallet the options are there but you don't see people flocking to do it.

[Stephen Cherry]

Vega OES and Lathes



I've got a vega sander, and it's great. I've also got a sanrite sander. Which is also a fantastic tool.

As for buying US- people talk about it, but they just don't do it. Even used. Just look at the big US made saws that are given away, and people line up to buy asian knockoffs of ancient designs.

[Dan Friedrichs]

...and people line up to buy asian knockoffs of ancient designs.

Well, it's not like the US manufacturers are innovating. I like seeing the euro machines, not because of where they are made, but because of how technologically advanced they are. Take a look at Northfield Machinery, or General Canada's offerings. That stuff has been virtually unchanged for decades.

[Ron Kellison]

I would suggest that the Veritas line of tools from Lee Valley should get honourable mention here despite the fact that it's made in Canada. Some of the individual components are made or machined in the US but the bottom line is that they are made to very high standards, are good value for the money and almost every one of us would love to have them in our shop.

Regards,

Ron

[Van Huskey]

I also forgot to add I use LOTS of US made tooling, I do NOT buy any Asian made tooling ('cept the occasional Japanese piece) if it isn't from the US, Canada or Europe I don't buy it. I also try to buy Veritas when they have a non-powered tool I need. When it comes to tooling and non-popwered tools all one has to do is open the pocket book there are plenty of options.

I would say when people won't even buy US made brad points or forstners I don't know how a company will get them to shell out for the US made press to spin them in. It really comes down to money and if you look at posts here most machine recommendations and purchases end up with the lowest bidder, a company named after a North American animal, namely Ursus arctos horribilis.

[David Kumm]

That's a good point about tooling. I asked the guy at the Fastenal store about US made nuts, bolts, screws. He told me they sell them but about the only people that pay more for them are the various local government purchasers. They like to use tax money for US stuff even though 1/3 to 1/2 more. Dave

[Stephen Cherry]

Well, it's not like the US manufacturers are innovating. I like seeing the euro machines, not because of where they are made, but because of how technologically advanced they are. Take a look at Northfield Machinery, or General Canada's offerings. That stuff has been virtually unchanged for decades.

Dan- this is absolutely true. If you look at the old Fine Woodworking magazines from the 90's, the offerings from delta and powermatic were out of the time machine. This is when minimax was advertising, and Bridgewood was bringing in the Italian bandsaws (I think). Personally, I'm about geared up for my purposes for some time to come, but if I were going to consider a machine, it would almost certainly be european. I have a Felder saw, and I know that Felder is not Martin, but it is smooth as silk compared to the unisaw that it replaced. I also have a little inca saw- equally smooth, on a microscopic scale.

The question in my mind is why would Oliver, Northfield, and even powermatic and delta (I know, different markets) have just stopped in the 1950's? My theory is that the basic machines themselves are largely things of the past as far as industrial use goes. For example, look at irsauctions.com. For every nice jointer and planer, there are several moulders. Not many table saws, but lots of beam saws (whatever they are) and lots of cnc's. I'm pretty sure that the tools that the low production professional, or hobbiest use are a "blast from the past" and worldwide are just sold in very limited numbers.

[Mike Heidrick]

I was going to mention Vega. They make and have made some fantastic equipment!! I still think their miter gauge they do not sell anymore is a $150 work of art!! Its massive.

[John Coloccia]

I would bet money that if we woke up in the morning and Festool was suddenly made a US company, LESS people would buy them, not more. Think about this for a minute. Would you trust Festool more or less if it were bought by a US company and all production and services were moved here? I think the decline in quality and service from US companies due to cost cutting and out sourcing has left a rather bad taste in everyone's mouth that will take years to rectify. This is made worse because you can't trust a brand to have consistent quality anymore. As an example, I can name Porter Cable tools that are still performing superbly straight out of the box, and other tools who's quality has declined to the point of ridicule from those who are familiar with them. Ditto for Delta....and Jet...and Powermatic. It's hard to believe that the same company that makes this:

http://www.portercable.com/Products/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=11053

and used to make this:
http://www.amazon.com/Porter-Cable-310-Production-Laminate-Trimmer/dp/B0000222Z4

also makes this:
http://www.portercable.com/Products/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=11106

What would happen to Festool if they suddenly starting mixing in cheap junk with the rest of their products? It would be more difficult to part with $400 for a sander if you know the same company also sells a $50 sander that is of poor quality. In the back of your mind "Hey, you get what you pay for" is trumped by "I can't believe they put their name on this thing." The whole operation becomes suspect.

You can sell less capable tools. You can sell tools who's fit and finish isn't perfect. You can even sell tools that are clunky and not very innovative. What you can't do is sell junk and then expect people to take you seriously when you try to sell a high quality tool, even if it is Made in the USA. I'm sure they figured this out a long time ago and simply gave up the market because there's no point pursuing it.

That's just my opinion.

[Jerome Hanby]

It's simple, just pass laws that require high end features and quality (as determined by government bureaucrats) and put price restrictions into place to keep the price reasonable and pay the manufactures out of the public treasury to maintain those levels and ...oh wait, that's how we got to the point we are at now...NM

[Bobby O'Neal]

It most certainly comes down to price for most. For me, absolutely. I would love to be able to just go get what I want and not consider the price. That's just not my situation. I have to buy the best I can afford when I need it and if it is made in Taiwan then that is what it is. If I blow everything I have on tools I can't afford any lumber to work with.

[Paul Johnstone]

I wouldn't be asking them to make everything, but maybe with automation technology, they could reduce the work force to compete with the imports but still provide jobs. All I would be looking for is a select line of tools to get their feet wet. I buy from over 1/2 the companies listed above and I can tell you, I would put them up against any imported tool of its kind and I bet they would hold their own.

Congratulations Tom, hope it is successful for you. I'll check it out myself.

I wish made in the USA could be done, but most of the USA citizens don't care.
I remember late 80's/early 90's when the imports first started coming in.
I remember a thread on rec.woodworking. A made in USA Delta jointer was $50 more than the import.
The overwhleming majority of posters basically said "Well, the Delta might be a little bit better, but I'll save the $50".

If we can't get the majority of hobbyists to pay an extra $50, even when the American product is percieved as possibly better, it's a tough road.

Note, maybe the Delta was only partially made in USA, I can't remember all the details, but the point still stands. Most hobbyists are looking for CHEAP.

[Rod Sheridan]

For me it comes down to a few issues,

- it has to meet my technical requirements such as safety, performance, capabilities, quality, future parts availability

- it has to be made in a country with equivalent or better environmental and social conditions to the one I live in.

- it has to come from a manufacturer who owns the intellectual property and therefore could be capable of producing spare parts for me in 30 years.

For the most part that means Canada/USA and Europe as countries of origin.

I replaced a shop full of General machines with a couple of Hammer machines, because they met all of the above criteria, and as others have said price is also a consideration, however it comes after the above 3.

Sure it would have been nice to have a shop full of Martin stuff, however it wouldn't fit my shop or budget.

Unfortunately condition #1 eliminated the Canadian manufacturer of machinery, as well as any US manufacturers, leaving Euro machines.

Judging by the number of cars at Wally world when I drive by, we'll never opt for local or quality products.............Rod.

P.S. Like Van I also buy local tooling if possible such as FS Tools, who are just up the road from me.

[Jim German]

I'm apparently in the minority here, but I don't care where my tool is made. I want tools that are well designed and well built. China can build high quality goods, and Americans can build crap. Quality generally has much more to do with cost then build location.

As for using automation to bring the cost down, the problem is the cost of the initial design and setup time of the automation system. For large volume goods its not that big a deal, but for low volume stuff like higher end table saws, recouping the costs is very unlikely.

[Jerry Thompson]

It is not just cheap labor that drives mfg. overseas. Corp. taxes. The Corps. do not pay taxes the consumer does as the Co. add the taxes they pay into the base cost of the product before markup. Business' do not pay taxes you do. The same with labor, advertising, insurance, etc.
Then you have onrus regulations, e.g., OSHA, EPA, as examples. Also in the markup are things such as reserves for law suites. There is all matter of government intrusion into buiness that does not need to happen. Hence it makes economic sense to explore other avenues to remain competative in the market.

[Rod Sheridan]

Then you have onrus regulations, e.g., OSHA, EPA, as examples. Also in the markup are things such as reserves for law suites. There is all matter of government intrusion into buiness that does not need to happen. Hence it makes economic sense to explore other avenues to remain competative in the market.

Jerry, these "onerous" regulations are why I purchase Canadian or American items as the first choice, rather than from countries that don't protect my environment or well being. Remove them and I then would shop Euro as first choice.............Regards, Rod.

[David Hostetler]

If pricing, quality, and features were competitive, maybe even with a small premium on the made in America name tag, I think companies could do well with U.S.A. made tools if they marketed them that way...

For example. I am eventually going to get frustrated with the limits of my HF 2HP dust collector, and I will want a USA made cyclone... hmmm bad example. I just pointed out Clearvue... But then again good example... That is the machine that the change in my old water jug is being saved for...

[ian maybury]

I spent many years as a management consultant trying to help companies to improve their R&D and manufacturing.

It seems to me that much of the loss of manufacturing in Western countries was not inevitable - that it is instead a result of the rush by corporate management to short term profit. Driven by shareholder pressure focused on next month (never mind next year or after that), and OTT bonuses. Over time though it's gravitated to become a widely held perception that we just can't do it any more.

National leaderships have become so politicised, caught in so many pockets and so much about about short term power that they don't seem to be capable of originating or implementing the sort of strategic thinking needed to offset the greed driven stuff - or of leading the development a national culture that won't wear it as the norm. (populations won't wear short term pain for longer term gain anyway - or at least they have been led out of that sort of thinking by generations of politicians outbidding each other)

The other myth that has driven a lot of the change has been the perception that banking, financial 'services' and stuffing lots of kids into grunt jobs behind PC screens and mc jobs amounts to progress, to a transition to higher value wealth generating business. Which it isn't except for a very few owners that get fabulously wealthy. Many of the applications into which the resulting equipment is sold is only fluff or churn - entertainment; or stuff that doesn't deliver real productivity, or stuff like banking that feeds off our populations.

It's in many ways the selling of our seed corn, and leads to a dumbing down and a reduction in the capability of workforces.

There's of course highly labour intensive tasks that are not feasible in a high labour cost economy, but germany is a very good example of one that has managed to stay pretty effectively in manufacturing and engineering. By taking a longer term and more inclusive view, by controlling the growth of government cost, by investing and being very creative in the integrated use of management thinking and technology, and in greatly upskilling their workforce. All despite a highly progressive approach on matters to do with the environment, and employee conditions. Companies like Hettich, Hafele and Felder (Austria) are all examples we know doing very well in products which most western economies would regard as metal bashing and best exported.

This isn't to argue for fundamentalist style values (we need something much more holistic and inclusive), but it's going to be interesting to see over the coming years if it's a trend that's reversible - if it's not a failure made inevitable by a weakening of our cultures. If the short term thinking can be replaced by a more reality based, wiser and more value led approach. Is it the decline and fall of the Roman empire yet again (led by non productive vested interests coming to call the shots), or just a dip in our fortunes which will tip us into wakening up again????

ian

[Ray Newman]

“ Good luck with that. US consumers demand low cost above quality except for the small upper end market.
--David Kumm
I wish made in the USA could be done, but most of the USA citizens don't care.
I remember late 80's/early 90's when the imports first started coming in.
I remember a thread on rec.woodworking. A made in USA Delta jointer was $50 more than the import.
The overwhelming majority of posters basically said ‘Well, the Delta might be a little bit better, but I'll save the $50‘ ".
--P Johnmstone
Ian Maybury: agreed!
BINGO! We have a triple winner here!

[Van Huskey]

Jerry, these "onerous" regulations are why I purchase Canadian or American items as the first choice, rather than from countries that don't protect my environment or well being. Remove them and I then would shop Euro as first choice.............Regards, Rod.


+1 or since it is a NA produced idea +3, even in this case I must pay extra (willingly) for quality that doesn't ruin bodies and environs.

[Jerry Thompson]

It is not axiomatic that sane regulations would lead to all the dire results predicted. As a matter of fact where are the Consitutional mandates allowing for all of the department in the U.S. Gopvernment that now enact laws without legislation but by merely printing them in the Federal Register?

[Van Huskey]

It is not axiomatic that sane regulations would lead to all the dire results predicted. As a matter of fact where are the Consitutional mandates allowing for all of the department in the U.S. Gopvernment that now enact laws without legislation but by merely printing them in the Federal Register?

But, I think it is axiomatic that there was a lot more human and environmental devastation in the US prior to environmental protection be it sane or not.

We must be careful as we are straying dangerously close to politics and I am sure the mods are watching.

[Jerry Thompson]

I agree we are bordering on an "Off Topic" subject.

[Michael Moscicki]

This is one thing people fail to realize. They think short term rather than long term. Sure I save $50 now, but when when my Chinese jointer breaks in a few years and I need a new one, then what. Those few who brought the American jointer won't have to spend double. I mean just look at all the old US made unisaws that still work, heck some even after 50 years.

In order for me:
1. Buy American.
2. Buy Canadian.
3. Buy European.

I myself don't have much as far as tools go, but I sure love my Canadian DeWalt Scroll Saw. The one they make in Tawain has so many QC issues, it's just sad.

Lee Valley makes all of the stuff they sell in either the US or Canada. That even includes leather aprons, rope, washers, knobs, etc.

Delta makes their Unisaw, Line Boring Machine, Radial Arm Saw, and Biesemeyer Fence in the US.

[Pat Barry]

John, you've made some good points here about quality and pricing. We know you make guitars. I bet they aren't inexpensive and are high quality, well constructed and have good tone. There are lots of cheaper competitors making guitars in high volume. Why do American's choose to buy from you? I bet its because you cater to a very narrow segment and those folks appreciate your product, recognize its value, and are willing to pay. You are only capturing a small segment of the market. This basic business model can work for tools also. The tool manufacturer could choose to cater to a narrower market, make high quality tools, and get paid correspondingly couldn't they?

[Van Huskey]

Lee Valley makes all of the stuff they sell in either the US or Canada. That even includes leather aprons, rope, washers, knobs, etc.

.

Not even close, but they do sell a lot of US and Canadian made goods. I think if you say Veritas instead you would be very close of not completely accurate.

[Gary Herrmann]

Made in the US can work. But the companies have to be willing to invest in all the necessary areas to continue to deliver a quality service and product. I think US consumers would buy, but as has been said, it may be a narrowly defined or high end market. I might have to buy offshore in the short term, but I'd save for US made in the long term. I try to keep my purchases to US and Canadian made. I'd buy the big European stuff, but it would probably never make it down the stairs to my shop.

Mindsets have to change in order for this to happen. I hope it does. I'll vote with my money.

[Van Huskey]

. I'd buy the big European stuff, but it would probably never make it down the stairs to my shop.

.

Thats when you buy a new US built shop! :D Keep Woodmaster in mind when it is time to add stuff to your shop, just on the other side of the state from you!

[John Coloccia]

John, you've made some good points here about quality and pricing. We know you make guitars. I bet they aren't inexpensive and are high quality, well constructed and have good tone. There are lots of cheaper competitors making guitars in high volume. Why do American's choose to buy from you? I bet its because you cater to a very narrow segment and those folks appreciate your product, recognize its value, and are willing to pay. You are only capturing a small segment of the market. This basic business model can work for tools also. The tool manufacturer could choose to cater to a narrower market, make high quality tools, and get paid correspondingly couldn't they?

There are companies out there, like Festool and Mirka, that are doing exactly what you suggest and are doing quite well apparently, but they aren't in the US. A Festool sander might cost $400, but anyone who's used one will tell you that it really IS close to 8 times better than a cheap $50 sander. If Festool made a $400 sander, and all it had going for it was that it's a little better and isn't made in China, no one would buy it. A lot of people I know that are flocking to Festool are doing so because they are cost effective. They use these things all day, every day, and they're sick of buying new sanders, routers, drills, etc every 5 or 6 months because their Dewalts, Porter-Cables and Boschs fall apart from just moderate use. That makes Festool not only a great performing product but also a great value.

I couldn't tell you why we don't see more domestic tool companies. The ROI just isn't there, I suppose. Personally, I could never put my name on a piece of junk and justify it by saying, "Hey, whadduyouwant? It's cheap!" There was a time when even cheap tools could be counted on to function properly....even a cheap tool wasn't junk. Robert Benedetto, a rather well known archtop guitar builder, still uses a little carving plane he made himself many decades ago. For the iron, he stole one of his dad's putty knives, broke off the blade, shaped it and sharpened it. He's still using that today as far as I know. Imagine that. The stupid putty knife was of such high quality that it could be used as a plane iron for 20 or 30 years!

Fast forward to today and I challenge you to find a church key that functions properly for ANY price. Just try opening some cans of soup with it. I went through a BUNCH of them....I'd use them once or twice, they'd sorta kinda work to poke holes in the soup can, and then they just bent so much as to be useless. I realized that my mom had just one my whole life and that it still works today like new. I immediately went out to my local antique store, found a box of these things in a corner and bought one for $.50. Mine says "Rheingold beer" on it, so it probably wasn't even a high quality one....just a cheap giveaway. They shutdown in 1976, so this thing is at least 35 years old, and yet it works better today than any of the new one's I've purchased in the last 10 years.

A US company needs to bring me that kind of quality before I consider spending money with them. I don't mind paying a premium but I need to be paying for a higher quality product, not just another piece of junk that happens to be made here as to opposed to elsewhere. I'd like to see that happen. I'm still waiting for someone to build me the drill press *I* want. LOL.

[Van Huskey]

There is always Northfield, not high on innovation but your great great great grandchildren will still be trying to wear it out, it will likely still be on its factory set of bearings. They may not be sexy but they will do their job.

John, it seems the DP is the machine we can't seem to find just what we want no matter what the price.

[Bill Wyko]

Keeping it simple and no politics. A tool maker would make and promote a tool or a line of tools as their American made line up. This would also be their finest and most creative products if they were smart. W/o offering it as a cut above the rest, it would be an embarrassment to them and the made in the USA title. IMO if done correctly, it could do a lot for a company. Possibly increase product sales overall and create jobs. Out of all the tools I own that are made in the USA either old or new, the quality of them is superior to the rest. (Except for my Festool sanders and hand held saws.)

[Van Huskey]

Bill, when you made the post were you thinking about machines or hand held power tools or...

Just curious.