A pleated fine filter for a pieced-together DC system?

[Mark Burnette]

I have a 2-stage DC in a small closet in my shop. I'd like to swap out the felt bag for a pleated filter but I haven't seen how I can mount it to the wall & connect via 4" hose. Is there a filter available configured for remote mounting or is this going to be a fabricate-a-thon?

222986

[Stew Hagerty]

I'm thinking you're going t be fabricating at least part of it. But I would call & talk to Dick Wynn at Wynn Environmental. He helped me out a lot when I was setting my system up. This is the website: http://www.wynnenv.com/index.htm, and here's his number: Tel (215) 442-9443.

[Alan Schaffter]

I wouldn't really classify that as a two stage DC. Where does the dust/chip separation occur? Unless you get good chip and dust separation, you are wasting money on a cartridge filter.

Almost any cartridge filter can be adapted to any installation. You need to decide if you want the air to flow "out-to-in" or "in-to-out." Some filters should be used in one direction of flow only, most can be used either way. To adapt an "in-to-out" just use some ply to make a cover for the end of the filter and cut a hole for a 4" hose/fitting. For an "out-to-in" filter installation, you will need build and and put the filter in an airtight enclosure with access door. Mount and seal the filter to hole in the enclosure. Run the DC discharge into the enclosure. There are plenty of examples here on SMC.

Filter enclosure for "in-to-out," or "out to in":

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/1329/medium/P10100513.JPG

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/1329/medium/P10100502.JPG

Remote filter mounted to an adapter for "out-to-in" flow for cleaning:

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/1329/medium/P6290034.JPG

Remote filter for "in-to-out." (upper right)

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/medium/Shop_21.JPG

[Mark Burnette]

The picture doesn't show the bag hidden by the wall (connected via 4" flex hose). It's a standard old-school Cincinnati 2-stage with the motor/impeller sitting on a barrel. The intake flows into the lid & what doesn't fall out goes through the impeller & into the bag.

http://home.comcast.net/~mburnette/Shopdustcoll.jpg

[Alan Schaffter]

What you have is not a true two stage DC. That barrel provides little to no separation of fine dust which will clog a cartridge just as quickly as a bag, but can be harder to clean. Again, unless you add a true cyclone, Thein, or other separator, IMHO you are wasting money on an expensive cartridge filter.

[Mark Burnette]

Can someone tell me if the flange end ("Farr flange") is stiff enough to use toggle clamps to suspend the filter or does everyone run a long through-bolt up the center to hold the endcaps on?

[Mark Burnette]

What you have is not a true two stage DC. That barrel provides little to no separation of fine dust which will clog a cartridge just as quickly as a bag, but can be harder to clean. Again, unless you add a true cyclone, Thein, or other separator, IMHO you are wasting money on an expensive cartridge filter.

This type has always been called a 2-stage system. Just because a cyclone is way more effective doesn't change the nomenclature.

So you also wouldn't advocate using a cartridge filter in a single stage bag-over-barrel system? I thought many were converting their systems & enjoying the benefits.

[Alan Schaffter]

This type has always been called a 2-stage system. Just because a cyclone is way more effective doesn't change the nomenclature.

So you also wouldn't advocate using a cartridge filter in a single stage bag-over-barrel system? I thought many were converting their systems & enjoying the benefits.

Just because the filter is separate from the bag or has a barrel instead of a bag, doesn't make it a two stage DC. Unless there are some unique attributes to the plumbing and the barrel that we can't see (Thein baffle, etc.), it is a single stage unit. Some of the uniformed are adding cartridge filters to single stage DC's, much to their eventual regret- plenty of threads about this, you don't have to take my word for it. Manufacturers are willing to sell you whatever you'll pay for! The Vortex Cone is an attempt by Jet to make a single stage DC's work more like a two stage DC, but it comes no where close to what can be achieved by a true two stage unit. Other than possibly a little better flow for the first few minutes and ability to trap finer particles, there are no real "benefits" to putting a cartridge on a single stage DC. It is not worth the considerable cost. It clogs just as quickly and sometimes more severely than a bag. Not only doesn't it improve collection at the source it reduces it since it can clog more fully- you need to think about the intake side of dust collection. While cleaning a bag is no picnic, cleaning a cartridge filter can be even worse, especially when dust gets lodged deeply in the tight pleats. Just read the threads about cleaning cartridge filters posted by folks who have them on single stage DC's or have over-flowed their cyclone barrels!

The metal flange on a Farr style 9L300BL is fairly heavy duty steel, sufficient to suspend the filter and attach it using toggles, wing nuts, nuts & washers, etc.

[Mark Burnette]

Alan you continue to imply that a cyclone separator is the ONLY 2-stage system and that just aint so. It is one of many variations. My commercial unit was given to me about 25 years ago by a friend who was foreman in a large machine shop that was disposing of 2 DCs. Mine does have a curved elbow that imparts spin to the airstream but I'm not going to call it a Thein baffle because it predates his published idea...and the internet...by many years. I have only had to empty my bag 3-4 times in all those years, and that was due to over-filling the barrel. The spinning vortex of debris packs so tightly in my barrel that most of it doesn't pour out when emptied--I have to dig it out by hand. IT WORKS.
I'm only interested in the cartridge because it traps the very fine dust that my bag doesn't.

[David Kumm]

I have the Onieda retrofit 13x39 cartridge on my cyclone along with four 8'x12" filter tubes. The cartridge flange attaches to a plywood plenum and the cartridge attaches to the flange with a threaded rod to the bottom. It allows for enough movement that the filter can be shaken without removal and the bottom canister attaches with star bolts. You could make a plywood mount and use it. If I had the room I would use four more tubes rather than the cartridge as overfilling causes the cartridge to fill rather than the tubes. I have considered putting a screen over the cartridge as the tubes are MUCH easier to clean. Fine dust is a problem with cartridges and I'm in Alan's camp that good separation is needed or cartridge maintenance will eat up what is the rest of your life. Only you know how effective your system is for fine dust. If I still used a true single stage collector I would put a huge felt bag from American Filter rather than a cartridge. In my world the only advantage of the cartridge is space saving. I prefer cloth or a combination of both. The air coming from the tubes and cartridge is the best I breathe so I don't consider cloth a disadvantage in that respect. I like about 40-50 sq ft filter per HP so that helps a lot. Dave

[Alan Schaffter]

Alan you continue to imply that a cyclone separator is the ONLY 2-stage system and that just aint so.

Don't recall every implying anything. You can call it anything you want and claim you have only had to clean your filters 3 - 4 times in 25 years, but I've been around long enough to know you are getting little to no separation except for the big chips and if your bags aren't clogging and your system is as old as you claim then you likely have a very nice dust pump with 25 micron or larger filters, or are sucking up little from your machines. Sorry, but if you do a poll, you'll find that folks who do any amount of woodworking and have a single stage bag unit or even a unit with Thien baffle or cyclone, you'll see they must clean their bags 2 -3 times a year if they want to maintain suction.

I was just trying to save you some money, but, by all means spend a $150+ on a cartridge and not see any improvement in dust collection. I suggest you read the threads here and spend a little time on Bill Pentz's site.

[Phil Thien]

Absolutely a two-stage system. That unit is the epitome of the classic two-stage system that home workshops employed before cyclones became all the rage.

I do agree with Alan, though, that the reason your existing bag may not be filling is that it doesn't capture the finer (5-micron and smaller) particles. OTOH, that closet looks pretty clean. Shops w/ inadequate filters are pretty obvious as you see a layer of talc-like dust on everything.

In terms of adding a cart. filter, it requires some creativity, but can be done. I'd look at the Wynn site and pick a filter that you can simply close-off the open end and add a collar for your exhaust pipe.

Your profile doesn't list a location, but if the climate is moderate, another option is piping the exhaust right outside.

Yet another option is to build a small plenum and use some "socks" which are bags that are open on both ends. You connect the bottom to a bucket and you can shake the bag to release cake into the bucket, and then remove/empty the bucket. Just make sure that your socks are the better, finer felt material.

[Mark Burnette]

THANK YOU Phil for weighing in. This was getting frustrating :) I'm absolutely aware that my bag is not catching the finest dust and it's the only reason I'm interested in a cartridge. But what my bag does accumulate is ONLY fine dust so the separator is doing a good job. I started this thread because I couldn't find much information on a ctg retrofit for this type of DC. Performance-wise a bag filter catches the finer particles after it has accumulated a decent "dust cake" on the inside but the better the separator is doing, the longer this takes. Obsessively cleaning the bag will keep CFM at peak, but hurts fine filtration. I know the ctg will load up quicker--if it didn't it wouldn't be working.

(added location to profile--in MI pumping 800CFM outside isn't an option)