Woodworking disaster...well to me it is!

[Warren White]

This may end up being long, but yesterday turned out to be a disaster. I finally go the courage up to do the dovetails on my daughter's blanket chest. I have had the front, back and sides milled up for quite a while, but this little voice kept telling me YOUR OVER YOUR HEAD! :rolleyes:

I quit listening to the little voice, watched my Leigh video again, set the machine up, measured everything several times (I have done dovetails successfully several times before). I used a 1/4" shank Leigh dovetail bit because the wood is only 5/8" thick. I started the tails on one end, but when I went from one end of the board to the other, the bit had dropped 1/8". The bit was chattering a lot. I cut the end off, tightened everything up real tight this time. Started over, and only got two tails cut when the bit had dropped again. This time, in spite of a backer board, the wood split out in back (which is the front of the case). I should mention that this is a new M12V Hitachi router which uses a sleeve for 1/4" bits, but the collet was REAL tight. I suppose I could buy a new bit, perhaps even an 8 mm bit that wouldn't chatter as much, but if I keep cutting the ends off I will end up with a jewelry case. :(

So, I have given up. What do you recommend as a method of joining the corners of this project? I have tried a joint that uses a small dado in one piece that matches a tenon on the other. I can do that fairly successfully. I have also thought of glueing up some 4/4 stock into 8/4 and making legs into which I m/t the front and sides.

At this point I am past trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. I just want to salvage some of my pride (not to mention the quite costly cherry/maple wood).

Not that you would ever find yourself in my fix, but what if you did....

What would you do?

Thanks,
Warren

[John Scane]

Hey sorry to hear about the mess up but that's woodworking. Anyway have you thought about a box joint ? There are a lot of ways to make em and they are pretty easy on the TS. I would go as far as to say I like the way they look better than dovetails but that's just me. Here's an example of a box joint.......



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v325/js040667/gold_bench_side2.jpg

[Warren White]

Hi John,
I had thought of box joints, but I am not comfortable with trying to keep a 40" side perpendicular to the fence/miter/table. You must have solved that problem though, because your box joints are excellent! I actually have plans for a box joint jig that I will make some day, but it is for smaller projects.

If you do them on the tablesaw, do you have any problem with getting the inside of the joint flat? I have a set of Freud dado blades, but the ends are not as even as the joints you have on your very massive, very nice piece.

Thanks for the suggestion, though. You are right about their appearance, especially on your table. OUTSTANDING!

Warren

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Warren, I have heard similar storeies about slipping bits in the MV12. Do you have another router you can use? I think I'd try to salvage the project making four "legs" and using frame and panel construction. It'd be strong and pretty easy to join.

[Ed Blough]

I think the problem your having is your allowing the bit to bottom out in the collet assembly. If you think about it you will see the problem. The collet nut must move down to tighten, however it also grips the bit. Now if the bit is on the bottom of the collet with no where to move once the collet nut gets tight enough not to slip down the bit shaft you can't tighten it anymore.

Lift the bit a 1/16" off the bottom and tighten the collet nut. Also make sure your 1/4' sleeve slots line up with the slots in the collet. I think you can get it tighter this way.

The first time I used my Hitachi the bit slipped but once I figured I had to keep the bit from bottoming out in the collet I never had the problem again. I found a small rubber o ring that would fit. Now the bit sits on it but as the collet tightens it bit compresses the o ring and everythign gets tight.

Do some cuts in scrape wood to make sure the bit will stay put.

[Ernie Kuhn]

To second Ed's response. The "O" ring thing is exactly what is recommended. Helps when switching between the dovetail and straight bits in setting them at the correct height too.
Go luck
Ernie

[lou sansone]

dear warren
I am one of those guys who cuts all my dovetails by hand. I do have jigs and can use them, but I have found that one screwup and you end up with a mess like you have. My personal preference is to do them the way they were done for the last 200 years.... with a hand saw and other hand tools, and not use a router jig. Now you might be thinking, yea right, I am having problems with the D4 jig and he wants me to do them by hand?

You can spend some nice relaxing time working on practice ones using scrap that is laying around until you get the confidence to go for the real thing. I agree that with a mechanical jig the joints will be perfect. When they are cut by hand they will have a little more slop in them. So what!

If you are interested in doing them by hand here is the way I have developed over the years. BTW I do use power tools for a lot of it.

1. lay out the tails first ... I know that other guys like to do it backwards and start with the pins, but it is much harder that way.
2. I use my scroll saw on a lot of smaller pieces to cut the tails out, The blanket chest might present problems. A good dozukie (sp) saw will make this pretty easy.
3. Use a knife to score the bottoms of the tails and then remove the rest of the material with chisels or a coping saw
4. now you can lay out the pins from the tails. I use a real stiff and sharp exacto knife.
5. Cut them out with a saw or you can set up a little jig and rout most of it out using a straight bit and then tune it up with a knife or chisel
6. Try a dry fit and see where it is hanging up. relieve the hidden edges with a knife and try again.

you can do it.

best of luck

lou

[Richard Wolf]

Warren, I feel its like getting back on the horse that you just fell off of. If you don't solve that problem with the dovetail jig now, it will end up in the corner covered in dust.
Ofcourse the problem is not the jig, but the router or bit. The tip about not bottoming out the bit maybe your problem. Even if you don't use the dovetails on this project you should solve the problem while it is fresh in your mind. Good luck.

Richard

[Silas Smith]

Warren, I know this may sound crazy, but do you suspect the bit? The only reason I say this is because I had the exact same problem with my Makita and the leigh bit. I had everything tightened, the bit was not bottomed out and it would drop. I was going crazy trying to figure it out. Finally I bought a 8mm Whiteside set and I can't believe the difference. The extra mass to the bit helps tremendously with chatter and makes a smoother cut. I am currently working with Honduras Mahogany and at over $6 a BF, I can't afford to keep making mistakes. The last set that I cut fit togeather like a glove. This is all part of the learning curve for the jig. It seems like you can't mess it up because it is such a simple jig, but then again maybe it's just me.

[Charlie Plesums]

I had trouble tightening and loosening the collet on my M12V. The slots that allow the collet to compress around the shaft didn't seem to be flexible enough - weren't cut deep enough. To get my bit out, I pushed a screwdriver into one of the slots- and the collet broke. It was late and I was in the middle of a project and didn't have another suitable router, so I tried using the broken collet...The two parts threaded into the shaft nicely and were secure, and held the router bit better than any other collet I had used. No more problem releasing the bit either. And with more flexibility on the 1/2 inch collet, the 1/4 inch adapter held tighter also.

Bottom line, that accident (that happened a couple years ago) was a huge improvement to the M12V. A modification that I recommend to every M12V user. The only downside is if you take the collet all the way out, it is awkward to thread back into the shaft. The answer is that you never have to take the collet all the way out. And I never had another bit slip in that collet.

When you wear out the bit with the 1/4 inch shaft, I do recommend that you upgrade to the 8 mm shaft, but that is a different issue.

[Bob Smalser]

Why not begin your dovetails with simpler ones at a pace that's more step-by-step?

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5732475/73537002.jpg

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=13905&highlight=machine+dovetails

Learning through dovetails done by machine followed by blind dovetails by hand is a better route to understanding the needs of the joint than jumping straight to production jigs.


Those with router jigs should cut a couple drawer sets over long by an inch or more so you don’t waste stock tuning the jig. Tune the jig using the actual stock then trim the stock to length when you are satisfied with the joint.

Personally, I find the better ones excellent for large runs of blind-dovetail cabinet drawers of identical thickness….for through dovetails or small runs of mixed size and thickness blind-dovetail drawers I find them fussy, tedious and often slower.

[Warren White]

Warren, I have heard similar storeies about slipping bits in the MV12. Do you have another router you can use? I think I'd try to salvage the project making four "legs" and using frame and panel construction. It'd be strong and pretty easy to join.

Dennis, I do have another router, and I have given that a lot of thought. However, for the reasons cited below about getting back on the horse, I would love to figure this thing out. I was very pleased with the router until this happened. I need to try the suggestions made and figure the router out at least. As for the leg idea, that will be my fall-back position.

Thanks for taking the time to respond. It is nice to have friends who can help out there.

Warren

[Warren White]

I think the problem your having is your allowing the bit to bottom out in the collet assembly. If you think about it you will see the problem. The collet nut must move down to tighten, however it also grips the bit. Now if the bit is on the bottom of the collet with no where to move once the collet nut gets tight enough not to slip down the bit shaft you can't tighten it anymore.

Lift the bit a 1/16" off the bottom and tighten the collet nut. Also make sure your 1/4' sleeve slots line up with the slots in the collet. I think you can get it tighter this way.



Ed,
I thought I had moved the bit up, but am not sure about it now. I had heard about keeping it off the bottom of the collet and I usually try to move it up, but who knows what it does when you are in the process of tightening it. I really like the idea of the o-ring. I will also be more careful about lining up the slots in the collet and sleeve, and I will look for an o-ring that will fit in there.

I really appreciate your help, Ed. I hate to give up on this project and on the dovetails; there goes my confidence.

Warren

[Warren White]

To second Ed's response. The "O" ring thing is exactly what is recommended. Helps when switching between the dovetail and straight bits in setting them at the correct height too.
Go luck
Ernie

Ernie,
I have been to the Tri-Cities area on business with PNNL. While there, I visited with my sister who was living at Moses Lake. We have new friends who have just moved up there, but I am retired and don't need to visit PNNL any more.

I appreciate your second of Ed's response. I will give it a whirl.

Take care,
Warrenn

[Warren White]

dear warren
I am one of those guys who cuts all my dovetails by hand. I do have jigs and can use them, but I have found that one screwup and you end up with a mess like you have. My personal preference is to do them the way they were done for the last 200 years.... with a hand saw and other hand tools, and not use a router jig.


Lou,
I know there are folks out there who relax by cutting dovetails by hand; I took a class from Kelly Mehler and he does. At the class, we were to hand cut dovetails in two small drawers by hand. After cutting one set (that is, just one matching side), I was standing there drenched in sweat! It wasn't relaxing for me at all. (I know, neither was my disaster!) I will try again, but I can't bring myself to do it on this chest. As you said, I need a lot more practice on something that can stand the mistakes, because I will make them.

Thanks for the suggestion, Lou. It will be a stretch for me, but that is what we are working with wood to do. I really want to figure out my mess first.

Warren

[Warren White]

Warren, I know this may sound crazy, but do you suspect the bit? The only reason I say this is because I had the exact same problem with my Makita and the leigh bit. I had everything tightened, the bit was not bottomed out and it would drop. I was going crazy trying to figure it out. Finally I bought a 8mm Whiteside set and I can't believe the difference. The extra mass to the bit helps tremendously with chatter and makes a smoother cut. I am currently working with Honduras Mahogany and at over $6 a BF, I can't afford to keep making mistakes. The last set that I cut fit togeather like a glove. This is all part of the learning curve for the jig. It seems like you can't mess it up because it is such a simple jig, but then again maybe it's just me.

Silas,
I spent a lot of time last night thinking about this (when I mess up in the shop it keeps me from sleeping...does that happen to anyone else?). I came to the same conclusion about the bit; it was the chatter causing all of the problems...bit slipping, wood tearing. In looking at the Manual, I can go to a more massive bit, but if I am going to use the 8mm bit, I need a new collet sleeve. The one in the manual is a 3/8 which is 9.5 mm. Is that what you have? I was concerned that it would be too large. I could go with the 1/2 collet without the sleeve.

Great suggestions, Silas.

Warren

[Warren White]

Warren, I feel its like getting back on the horse that you just fell off of. If you don't solve that problem with the dovetail jig now, it will end up in the corner covered in dust.
Ofcourse the problem is not the jig, but the router or bit. The tip about not bottoming out the bit maybe your problem. Even if you don't use the dovetails on this project you should solve the problem while it is fresh in your mind. Good luck.

Richard

Richard,
Now I have two voices in my head!!! You are exactly right, of course. I must figure this out or I will have more than one piece of equipment sitting around gathering dust; this thing shakes my whole confidence level. Nothing like success to inspire you to try something new; nothing like failure to keep you from trying anything.

Thanks for the inspiration. I will get back on.

Warren

[Warren White]

I had trouble tightening and loosening the collet on my M12V. ....using the broken collet...The two parts threaded into the shaft nicely and were secure, and held the router bit better than any other collet I had used. No more problem releasing the bit either. And with more flexibility on the 1/2 inch collet, the 1/4 inch adapter held tighter also.

Bottom line, that accident (that happened a couple years ago) was a huge improvement to the M12V. A modification that I recommend to every M12V user. The only downside is if you take the collet all the way out, it is awkward to thread back into the shaft. The answer is that you never have to take the collet all the way out. And I never had another bit slip in that collet.

When you wear out the bit with the 1/4 inch shaft, I do recommend that you upgrade to the 8 mm shaft, but that is a different issue.

Charlie,
That is an interesting observation. Did you contact Hitachi and make the suggestion? I am not sure I am ready to try it just yet, but I will keep it in mind. I will go with the 8 mm and will ask you the same question above: is the 3/8 sleeve (9.5 mm) available from Hitachi the way to go, or is there an after-market 8 mm collet you can buy?

Warren

[Warren White]

Why not begin your dovetails with simpler ones at a pace that's more step-by-step?

Learning through dovetails done by machine followed by blind dovetails by hand is a better route to understanding the needs of the joint than jumping straight to production jigs.

Hi Bob,
I have made quite a few dovetails on the Leigh without much of a problem. The problem here was I was using a new (presumably better) router. I never had the problem with my PC router, but the new one has speed control, soft start (and as I sadly learned, bits that move).

Thanks for the suggestion, though. I appreciate all that has been offered.

Warren

[Charlie Plesums]

...Did you contact Hitachi and make the suggestion?

...is the 3/8 sleeve (9.5 mm) available from Hitachi the way to go, or is there an after-market 8 mm collet you can buy?

Warren
I never contacted Hitachi because they might feel obligated to replace the "defective" collet, and the "broken" one was better than any other I had used. I didn't want help with this one!

As you undoubtedly know, the Hitachi is a very heavy router, so I most often used it in a router table built into the wing of my table saw. When I upgraded to a combo and sold the table saw, the router went too. Then I didn't have a 1/4 to 1/2 inch adapter any more. The Hitachi 1/4 to 1/2 adapter in their parts department was something like $12 plus handling. I found one from Woodline for $2. Bottom line, I am not interested in Hitachi parts if I can avoid them.

I got the 1/2" to 8 mm collet adapter from Leigh with the 8 mm router bit; part of the package deal so I cannot say how much it would cost separately. Nice adapter, though, since it has a collar to keep the adapter from bottoming out.

Note that you cannot use a bit with a 1/2 inch shaft with the normal Leigh setup. The bit is larger than fits through the normal guide collar, and the 1/2 inch shaft is larger than fits through the guide collar. Which is why the smaller 8mm shaft has to be used, fed through the collar, into the adapter that is already in the collet.

[Michael Sloan]

Whatever you try, I would find a nice (ie, cheap) piece of wood to test the setup with. That way, if it doesn't work, you are not wasting the good stuff.

[Frank Guerin]

As far as blowout, you can try slowing your cut or a strait bit to start. I don't remember but I think the slots on your 1/4 in insert are suppose to be opposite the slots in your 1/2 in router collet. I have had this happen to me in the past. I cleaned collet. Even sandpapered a little for gripping. Made sure slots in collet and and insert were not lighed up and everything was clean and even changed bits. There is a sollution. Use a straight bit first then go slower.
Good luck.

[Brian Knop]

I also have M12V Hitachi router and have done the same thing. You have to line up the spilt in the 1/4" collet and 1/2" in order to get the correct amount of compression on the 1/4" collet. Hopes this helps.
Happy cutting!

Brian

[Warren White]

I got the 1/2" to 8 mm collet adapter from Leigh with the 8 mm router bit; part of the package deal so I cannot say how much it would cost separately. Nice adapter, though, since it has a collar to keep the adapter from bottoming out.

Note that you cannot use a bit with a 1/2 inch shaft with the normal Leigh setup. The bit is larger than fits through the normal guide collar, and the 1/2 inch shaft is larger than fits through the guide collar. Which is why the smaller 8mm shaft has to be used, fed through the collar, into the adapter that is already in the collet.

Charlie,
Sorry it took so long to get back to you. I found a 8mm collet adapter at Woodcraft, but it has a different set of relief cuts (probably not what you should call them) than the collet on the Hitachi or the 1/4" sleeve. Both the collet and the sleeve have 3 cuts; the Woodcraft adapter has only two. Does your adapter have two or three cuts? If yours have three and you are happy with it, I will take this one back. I especially like the idea of the collar.

Thanks for your help.

Warren

Also, I think I can use the 1/2 (if the bit isn't too long) by using a 5/8" guide. The Leigh book indicates it will work.

[Warren White]

I also have M12V Hitachi router and have done the same thing. You have to line up the spilt in the 1/4" collet and 1/2" in order to get the correct amount of compression on the 1/4" collet. Hopes this helps.
Happy cutting!

Brian

Thanks Brian. It would be nice if the Hitachi manual mentions the need to line up the splits (I actually read the manual...). I just bought an 8 mm sleeve, but it has two splits, rather than the 3 in the collet. Do you think it will work?

Warren

[Warren White]

As far as blowout, you can try slowing your cut or a strait bit to start. I don't remember but I think the slots on your 1/4 in insert are suppose to be opposite the slots in your 1/2 in router collet. I have had this happen to me in the past. I cleaned collet. Even sandpapered a little for gripping. Made sure slots in collet and and insert were not lighed up and everything was clean and even changed bits. There is a sollution. Use a straight bit first then go slower.
Good luck.

Frank, that is an excellent suggestion. I will try that when I get back to the project. Thanks.

Warren

[Warren White]

Whatever you try, I would find a nice (ie, cheap) piece of wood to test the setup with. That way, if it doesn't work, you are not wasting the good stuff.

Michael, that is also a good idea, and I should have done that first. I will do that before I mess this nice cherry up again.

Warren

[Charlie Plesums]

Charlie,
...Does your adapter have two or three cuts? If yours have three and you are happy with it, I will take this one back. I especially like the idea of the collar.

Also, I think I can use the 1/2 (if the bit isn't too long) by using a 5/8" guide. The Leigh book indicates it will work.
Don't go to the 5/8 inch guide with the Leigh jig. That is used with larger bits for very large dovetails, not the type you will want to make in drawers and smaller boxes.

My Leigh 8 mm to 1/2 inch adapter has 6 cuts, 5 partial and one through. I am happy with it - no problems, but use it in my DeWalt, not the Hitachi router.

My $2 Woodline 1/4 to 1/2 inch adapter has three cuts, two partial and one through.

Although it may seem scary, I would get a big flat screwdriver and hammer it into the through cut on the Hitachi collet (out of the router) to break the 1/2 inch collet. The results were wonderful. Never had a problem with a dropped bit. Aligning the slots may help slightly, but nothing like having the outer collet that puts 100% of the force on the bit (or adapter) instead of using 80% of the force just to bend the collet itself. (When you see how much force it takes to move the collet at all, you will think the 80% loss is conservative).

[Warren White]

Although it may seem scary, I would get a big flat screwdriver and hammer it into the through cut on the Hitachi collet (out of the router) to break the 1/2 inch collet. The results were wonderful. Never had a problem with a dropped bit. Aligning the slots may help slightly, but nothing like having the outer collet that puts 100% of the force on the bit (or adapter) instead of using 80% of the force just to bend the collet itself. (When you see how much force it takes to move the collet at all, you will think the 80% loss is conservative).

Scary indeed, but it sounds like it would work. I will give it some thought, and I think I will take the Woodcraft sleeve back. I don't think it has enough cuts in it to work.

Thanks again,
Warren