New Planemaker's Floats at Lee Valley

[Shaun Mahood]

Looks like these are brand new - http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=69096&cat=51&ap=1

I'm excited that these are being offered, hopefully someone will find out how they compare the the Lie Nielsen ones. It will probably be a while until they end up in my shop, but they're certainly on the wish list!

[Chris Griggs]

That's so great. I love my half round Iwasaki file. These are a bit more expensive than the standard files, so I'm wonder if LV had the company make those specially for them. At $50 a pop I won't buy them at this moment, but if/when I'm in the market, I wouldn't hesitate. The one advantage I can see for the LNs is that they can be resharpend with a file. The Iwasaki files are chemically etched, but I don't forsee mine getting dull for a LONG time anyway.

[David Weaver]

This is my opinion, having not used the iwasaki floats - if I were using floats to make moulding planes or western planes (which most people probably will be doing) I would probably stick with the LN floats, because the cost is nearly the same, they are resharpenable, and they are quite a bit larger (in both length and width). The length in the LN floats provides you with a level of flex in the longer floats that is very handy for removing wood at a spot and not blowing out the tops of mortises or mouths, etc.

The handles on the LNs are substantially larger, too, as are the teeth. Both of those things being an advantage (you will have points where you want to get both hands on the float, and remove a lot of material).

Just my opinion for people who are thinking of making several planes, the value of the opinion is worth the price charged for it.

[Ryan Baker]

Wow, those are tiny. I am inclined to agree with David's comments, but I wouldn't mind trying these out.

[Shaun Mahood]

David, which of the Lie Nielsen floats would you recommend? Too many choice + ths shipping cost is part of why I haven't picked those up (the other part being that I seem to keep spending my tool buying money before it actually lands in my bank account).

[Jerome Hanby]

I saw a recommendation (I think it was here at SMC) for which LN floats to get for plane making. Bet you could search around a bit and find it...

I found it. here is the SMC Link (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?179458-Just-sounding-out-this-idea&highlight=float) post is at the bottom.

[John Coloccia]

If these cut anything like my other Iwasaki files, there will never be any need to use two hands. It's crazy how quickly and smoothly those Iwasakis cut.

[David Weaver]

Fortunately, I was about to put my answer down and it didn't change. I'd maybe be seen to be wishy washy if it had!

I'd get a push cheek float, a pull side float and an edge float. You can get some O1 bar stock and make a second edge float if you want to have one that has teeth a little less aggressive. Sometimes if you're flating into endgrain, and the surface isn't as smooth as you'd want, it can be a rough fide with an aggressive edge float.

I made a little one of 1/8th O1 and partially hardened it (it's more important that the teeth at the end are hard than the ones farther back) in about an hour, and I don't feel like I wasted my time. The LN floats are more crisp, though, they really are nice pieces of gear.

It is nice, but not nearly necessary, to have both cheek and side floats in push and pull. Until you get a routine, having everything helps you work more accurately with less chance of blowing out the edges of the mortise around the wedge (it's pretty hard to hide that once you do it).

[Jack Curtis]

With one possible exception, you don't really need floats to make planes. There's nothing they do that you can't do with chisels. The exception is tall western molding planes, in which case it helps to have a float or two, but still not necessary.

[James Taglienti]

We do whatever Chris Schwarz tells us to do Jack

[Jack Curtis]

We do whatever Chris Schwarz tells us to do Jack

I'm more of a trust but verify person. I admire Chris a lot, feel a lot of gratitude for his work; but I never follow anyone blindly. He was wrong about draw bore pins, and if he specifies floats as necessary, he's wrong again; however, I doubt that he does.

[Shaun Mahood]

I'm not sure where the Chris Schwarz bit came in - I generally read his stuff but can't remember anything on plane floats. I'm mostly interested in the floats because of people around here who have posted about both them and the Iwasaki files.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I'm in no way even close to someone who knows stuff about plane making, but logically, it doesn't seem right that it necessary just depends on skill level. but that can be said about sooo many tools, many of which I wouldn't want to have to do without.

On the Chris note, I believe it’s important to learn from whoever has something to teach you, but if you don’t think for yourself than most likely you’ve learned nothing. so I agree about never following blindly.

[Jack Curtis]

I'm in no way even close to someone who knows stuff about plane making, but logically, it doesn't seem right that it necessary just depends on skill level. but that can be said about sooo many tools, many of which I wouldn't want to have to do without....

Sure, it does depend on skills, which we're allowed to develop as we try new things. I think floats could come in very handy, adding a bit of control when needed; but I hate to see people putting off trying to make planes until they have what is a very expensive helper. My girlfriend and I have made many Japanese planes with nary a float in the shop, mostly because they were even more expensive and somewhat unavailable when we started.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Regarding the Swartz comment, I would offer more of a generalization of all tool magazines and their incessant recommendations of tools every month, rather than just Swartz himself. It is for that reason that I no longer subscribe to any tool mags. I will say that I have read several of Chris's books and have enjoyed them, and I do think he has "unshackled" himself from the commercial aspect of the magazine business into becoming more of a woodworker.

Detaching myself from magazines, not only saves some cash, but removing the constant "next best thing mindset", lets you enjoy and learn the tools you have, without thinking about should I buy the newest thing. In spite of that, I do have to add I cannot pass an old tool without thinking "do I need this for my collection....I mean my accumulation"?

[Mark Maleski]

I thought the Schwarz comment was funny - I took it as a joke. For the record, I think the recent plane float resurgence was more of a Larry Williams thing.

[David Weaver]

Sure, it does depend on skills, which we're allowed to develop as we try new things. I think floats could come in very handy, adding a bit of control when needed; but I hate to see people putting off trying to make planes until they have what is a very expensive helper. My girlfriend and I have made many Japanese planes with nary a float in the shop, mostly because they were even more expensive and somewhat unavailable when we started.

I don't think there's any part of a japanese plane that can be done faster with floats than with chisels.

That's not the case with non-laminted moulding planes, though. I have only made one dai, and while the fit isn't quite like i'm used to from something like a nimura dai, it's functionally fine. But on the moulding plane, there isn't really enough place to work in the mortise to efficiently do a similar job to the one you can do with floats.

The only float that I would suggest someone frugal buy would be one side float, though. The edge float and the cheek float are pretty easy to file out of 1/8th O1 steel.

Make or buy, I would definitely have them for moulding planes, which are the hardest planes to buy in a shape similar to what you can make. Decent bench planes are easy to find, so if one doesn't want to make them in a traditional way, that's OK - it's likely you can find one for less than it would cost in parts to make one.

That mortise fit around the top of the wedge is visually critical on a moulding plane, though, and easily done with floats.

[David Weaver]

I agree with tony - it's nice to get away from the magazines, etc. For me, when my somewhat limited space ran out, that's when the "i'll buy it" mentality went away. Plus, I think building and refurbishing a large number of the tools you need is a great skill builder and a good lesson in design (because the items are usually small and you have time to think about what you want them to look like).

[george wilson]

I never used any floats on all those planes we made for the Historic Area. But,I do know how to use a chisel accurately.

[David Weaver]

I'm sure much more accurately than the average person making their first moulding plane.

[James Taglienti]

I really just wrote it as a joke- i read a lot of the stuff he writes and i respect the way he works. I just think it's funny that sometimes when he mentions a particular tool or method there is a surge of interest. Im guilty too.

[David Weaver]

I had a conversation with a guy on one of the razor boards, where I mentioned how some shapton stuff is positioned over here (like the glasstones) as senselessly overpriced (my opinion, of course), and the positioning makes no sense vs. other stuff (example, a pro 15k at c-studio or direct from harrelson stanley's site is $115, but the 16k glasstone, with 1/3rd the abrasive is $130). He basically responded that shaptons (shapton pros) are the most popular stone in japan and kings are the universal bargain stone. And then cracked that naniwa stones are the red headed step child (with the exception of choseras being in a few high end shops in tokyo) and made the comment along the lines that nobody wants them there relative to the shaptons and kings.

My first reaction was, if they have trouble selling them over there, all we need is a magazine "review" that says they're great, and they can sell off all their stock over here regardless of whether or not anyone wants them in japan.

(FTR, the superstones are a fan favorite of razor folks over here, as are the nortons - two stones that get criticized a lot in woodworking circles for one reason or another, and both fine stones for razors or woodworking tools).

If Chris or tommy mac made a big whoop about superstones (that's not tommy mac's nature, though), surely we'd be hearing their virtues within a very short period of time on the forums.

[Sean Richards]

We do whatever Chris Schwarz tells us to do Jack

That is pretty funny (seriously). Sometimes I wonder if I have stumbled into some sort of cult - the amount of significance that seems to be given to certain individuals utterances is weird if not a bit creepy.

[Edward Clarke]

That is pretty funny (seriously). Sometimes I wonder if I have stumbled into some sort of cult - the amount of significance that seems to be given to certain individuals utterances is weird if not a bit creepy.

Let's put that into a more friendly format. If I don't know how to do something then I will try out Chris Schwarz's methods because he has a track record of being correct most of the time and he's not trying to sell me something. I also look at Jim Kingshott (deceased), Lonnie Bird, Frank Klausz and Roy Underhill. George in this forum and that horrible guy from Perth that makes me feel so terribly inadequate are others that I give a lot of significance to.

I guess the reason is - they're right most of the time and they have a reputation of delivering the goods.

[David Keller NC]

That is pretty funny (seriously). Sometimes I wonder if I have stumbled into some sort of cult - the amount of significance that seems to be given to certain individuals utterances is weird if not a bit creepy.

Indeed. I agree with most of what Chris writes, and would advise any beginning woodworker to follow his advice closely because while his way isn't the only way to accomplish workshop tasks, his way certainly will work. And often the problem that beginners have is "paralysis by analysis" - as in getting way too many options to do something.

But I do think it a bit strange (and so does Chris, btw) that when he mentions an old tool on his blog, suddenly the demand for the item goes through the roof for a few weeks and all of the examples dissappear from antique tool dealer's sites. The "creepy" factor, for me, isn't Chris - it's that so many followers seem to be sheep.

[Sean Richards]

The "creepy" factor, for me, isn't Chris - it's that so many followers seem to be sheep.

Just so it is 100% clear my comment was not about Mr. Schwarz (I am sure he is a lovely guy) but as you state more about the devotees.

[Zach England]

i'm more of a trust but verify person. I admire chris a lot, feel a lot of gratitude for his work; but i never follow anyone blindly. He was wrong about draw bore pins, and if he specifies floats as necessary, he's wrong again; however, i doubt that he does.

Do not question The Schwarz! You will obey!

[Mike Holbrook]

Regarding the Iwasaki File/Floats. I think you have to use them to appreciate them. At least for me they do have some unique qualities that one has to try to figure out. I use mine for a variety of restoration and new work on wood and find them more than worth the money. The price on the regular Iwasaki File/Floats, in my humble opinion, is outstanding. The regular, older style, Iwasakis are substantially less money than the LN Floats. I think Chris Griggs is following the right trail regarding the new LV offerings. The old Iwasakis are apparently chemically etched and their faces are not like the LV offerings.

I am wondering about the Schwarz comments as well since I have not run across anything by him on floats. The article he did in Hand Tool Essentials about rasps does not mention Iwasakis or LN floats at all. Certainly one could make the point that Chris has been a major force behind the less is more mind set. I believe The Anarchist's Tool Chest is his most popular work to date and that is exactly the subject. I think Chris's main contributions to woodworking are outside the realm of those commercial writing duties he served or serves. I can certainly see how people could become tired of hearing his name and regret that his work may over shadow equally valuable work by many others in recent times. At the same time, maybe he just does a better job of delivering his message.

[Dan Barr]

here's my comparison.

lee valley's offering is too small and the handles are cheap as dirt. a milled float?!? how are you supposed to sharpen a curved tooth? looks like they are just throwing these out into the market in order to have something to compete with lie nielsen. bad move and a waste of time and money from what i can tell. looks more like a diaposable tool to me.

lie nielsen's floats are solid tools (with real handles) and can be re-sharpened. and they're not too small. lie nielsen doesnt put a tool out until they KNOW that the design is solid and the tool will serve the purpose well.

ciao,

dan

[Stewie Simpson]

I agree with Davids assessment. Having used other Iwasaki files I do not see much benefit in using there floats compared to the attributes I have experienced when using the LN floats.

[paul cottingham]

Let's put that into a more friendly format. If I don't know how to do something then I will try out Chris Schwarz's methods because he has a track record of being correct most of the time and he's not trying to sell me something. I also look at Jim Kingshott (deceased), Lonnie Bird, Frank Klausz and Roy Underhill. George in this forum and that horrible guy from Perth that makes me feel so terribly inadequate are others that I give a lot of significance to.

I guess the reason is - they're right most of the time and they have a reputation of delivering the goods.
+1 on this. I just about spat out my coffee at the comment about the "horrible guy from Perth."
i like the aforementioned folk cause they don't seem to have a commercial axe to grind as well.

[Don Dorn]

We do whatever Chris Schwarz tells us to do Jack

While I know it was "tongue in cheek". I think you are more right than you know. They talk about particular items being "Schwarzed" in that he makes a recommendation and all of a sudden, they are out of stock. I think he put Benchcrafted on the market almost single handendly. He also certainly helped Treemont nail increase thier sales.

I'm with Jack determining your own needs, but I'll admit that I read his blog regularly until he got into the "Joint Stool from a Tree" stuff.

[Tri Hoang]

I've made a few floats out of 1/8" O1 stock. It's pretty straight forward,especially if one is also making H&R irons since there would be plenty of scrap. Otherwise I'd go with Lie Nielsen floats mainly for the same reason I don't buy disposable Japanese saws: I want to be able to sharpen them.