Hybrid Sharpening? Scary Sharp+Shaptons...

[Bobby O'Neal]

Does anybody combine the two methods with good results? I have been using scary sharp (very half heartedly, I might add) for a while and am not feeling like this is the way I want to go long term. I haven't put alot of heart into the process because I don't think its the long term fix for me and therefore do not want to spend time getting good at something I'd like to ditch. Having said that, to transition to stones, I wonder what it'd be like to use some lower grit papers for rougher work and buy a 8,000 or 16,000 Shapton (for example) for polishing. This would be just because I already have the supplies on hand and would only have to buy one stone to start with. I'm hoping it'd be possible to get everything in good shape and then rarely have to touch the papers again. Just get back to the stone before I need something more coarse.

Anybody tried it?

[Dave Beauchesne]

Bobby:

I do the hybrid thing - for speed mostly.

When I am flattening the back of a Hock iron, for example. They can be challenging, and rather than wear out my 1000 grit Shapton,
I get out the granite plate, and start with some 180 grit peel and stick paper, get it flat, and go to the waterstones from there. I use the
peel and stick that I get from the autobody supply place - it is pricey, but can be used quite a while.

I have up to 16000 Shapton, but day to day I take the edge to 8000.

Just my 2 cents -

Dave Beauchesne

[Bobby O'Neal]

Bobby:

I do the hybrid thing - for speed mostly.

When I am flattening the back of a Hock iron, for example. They can be challenging, and rather than wear out my 1000 grit Shapton,
I get out the granite plate, and start with some 180 grit peel and stick paper, get it flat, and go to the waterstones from there. I use the
peel and stick that I get from the autobody supply place - it is pricey, but can be used quite a while.

I have up to 16000 Shapton, but day to day I take the edge to 8000.

Just my 2 cents -

Dave Beauchesne


That's encouraging. I feel like the paper is fine for rougher work but using very fine paper that wears out quickly is getting old for polishing.

Also, are you saying that you use your 8000 for polishing more often despite the fact that you have a 16000? If so, please elaborate. I know plenty of people have said that 8000 is plenty good for the final polish.

[Jim Matthews]

Lie Nielsen's Deneb Puchalski suggested a similar method.

The grinding is best with a friable abrasive like sandpaper. Using the granite substrate makes setup trivial.
Note that the method uses a simple jig to hold the steel at a consistent angle from one grit to the next in the process.

The nicest thing about the sandpaper on granite (or float glass) approach is that you can free hand an edge, if needed.
It's handy to have this touch up feature on deck, when I don't want to layout all the Shapton paraphernalia.

jim
wpt, ma

[David Weaver]

You will always go back to the paper if you don't have a 1000 or 2000 level stone. If you use tools until they have noticeably lost sharpness, there will be enough wear that it won't be productive to use only an 8000 stone unless you're grinding all the way to the edge every sharpening.

I probably wouldn't buy two shaptons in the 8000 and 16000 grit types, it's a bit of a waste of money. You can fake the 8000 into a finer polish by letting it load and dry and continuing to work the edge for the few times you need it or set up a lap with MDF or something and use either compound or films. It is especially easy to do that with the back of something (a chisel or iron) and then use the loaded area to work the bevel on a diagonal.

At any rate, there's a reason that the 1000 level stones are so popular - they're a convenient size to quickly remove the wear from the bevel on an iron that has gone dull.

[Dave Beauchesne]

That's encouraging. I feel like the paper is fine for rougher work but using very fine paper that wears out quickly is getting old for polishing.

Also, are you saying that you use your 8000 for polishing more often despite the fact that you have a 16000? If so, please elaborate. I know plenty of people have said that 8000 is plenty good for the final polish.

Bobby:

I went a bit ' hog wild ' when I bought some stones - the 16000 is overkill for everyday work as far as I can see.

That being said, my 28 year old son has taken a hankering to finding, sharpening and using straight razors as a hobby; he comes and borrows the 16000 regularly, plus Dad sprung for a 30000 Shapton Glass Stone for him for Christmas - I also got him some of the 0.1 micron LV diamond film to try out - he really likes it - it doesn't ' load up ' badly.

In everyday chisel work, I use a maple strop charged with LV green compound - amazing how that can excuse you from going to the sharpening station while hunkered over some dovetails.

Dave Beauchesne

[Archie England]

I started with scary sharp but eventually moved to oil stones, then on to waterstones. When comparing lower grit work--paper vs oil vs water--I found the waterstones to be just as fast with better results.
I Have the Sigma 120, King deluxe 300, & Chosera 400. The Cho is the least capable of these three, but still a good stone for scratch pattern. The Sigma is super at cutting bevels, or restoring them. However, I no longer use it on blade backs. It just cuts too abrasively, too quickly. The King 300, however, is fantastically capable to work backs, and it leaves a really good scratch pattern that the Cho 400 works up really well. The King is a thick stone that is highly dish resistant and works well as a splash n go.

Oh, the King is about $40; a Gesshin 400 or Sigma 400--both better stones--are at $70 or more.

Just another opinion.

[Bobby O'Neal]

David, I was thinking of 8,000 or 16,000 but not both. Would it be too much of a jump from say, 1000/5000/16,000? If the 16,000 isn't alot more $ than the 8,000, then why not go for it? And if this is the setup I'd like maybe I start with the 5,000 and strop for the polish until getting the finer grit. Just throwing ideas out there. I have alot to learn about stones.

I keep going back to the Shaptons in my head because of the spritz and go ability. I don't want to take the time to soak stones if I don't have to.

[Stuart Tierney]

I keep going back to the Shaptons in my head because of the spritz and go ability. I don't want to take the time to soak stones if I don't have to.


Your loss.

Sorry if that sounds a little harsh, but in my humble experience and with my wants and needs for sharpening, I'm not willing to give up the performance of a a soaking stone for "spritz and go", except in very few circumstances, none of which involve a Shapton.

(But in your case, I'd be considering slipping in a Shapton 1K Pro because it's not half bad and doesn't benefit from soaking.)

Good luck.

Stu.

[Bobby O'Neal]

Your loss.

Sorry if that sounds a little harsh, but in my humble experience and with my wants and needs for sharpening, I'm not willing to give up the performance of a a soaking stone for "spritz and go", except in very few circumstances, none of which involve a Shapton.

(But in your case, I'd be considering slipping in a Shapton 1K Pro because it's not half bad and doesn't benefit from soaking.)

Good luck.

Stu.



Not harsh at all, but please explain. And operate under the assumption that I'm totally niave, because that's about accurate. Is there a higher quality to be had in a soaking process that overrides the speed of a spray?

[Chris Griggs]

I keep going back to the Shaptons in my head because of the spritz and go ability. I don't want to take the time to soak stones if I don't have to.

I agree with Stu not to let that be your deciding factor. I used to be very married to the idea of splash and go stones. I think people tend to equate soak with maintenance and mess and no soak with no mess...I know I did. What I've found in practice though, is that soaking isn't really correlated with mess & maintenance...flattening is. Some stones flatten easier then others and create less mess, or at least a mess that is more contained. Others, the mud and water tends to go all over the place. Some are stickier when you flatten them, others smooth. And obviously, some stones stay flat better than others.

All water stones need regular flattening, so to me that very quickly makes the whole splash and go thing kind of moot. I'm not saying you shouldn't get Shaptons or that splash and go doesn't add some convenience, and I'm not going to tell you what you should get. Again, I would just say that I think the whole splash and go thing is a bit overrated and that if there are soaking stones that attract you for other reasons don't let the soaking thing deter you. The only soakers I personally am less attracted to are stones that I can't leave in water, but even that really isn't a big deal.

Good luck - a good 1k stone is great asset!

[Stuart Tierney]

Not harsh at all, but please explain. And operate under the assumption that I'm totally niave, because that's about accurate. Is there a higher quality to be had in a soaking process that overrides the speed of a spray?

Very quickly, because I do have a great amount of time (and none to get into spirited debates)...

Any of the decent, high quality stones will sharpen in about the same time. Granted, if you need to soak before hand that adds some time to the process, but it's also time where you can be doing other things. It's not dead time.

What is most important to me when I'm sharpening is trust that the stone is going to do what I expect it to, do it in a manner that is as trouble free as possible and also get my blade as sharp as I want it in a timely manner. Value for money is also a factor, but at the same time, I've got so many stones that it's less a case of 'value for my money' as it is 'value for your money'. I'm not debating which stones to get as you are, because chances are, I've already got them and used them enough to know what they're like.

With minimal exceptions (and only at the lower end of the grit scale), no soak stones give up some other more-important-to-me benefit in order to be 'no soak'. It might be ease of actual use, it might be durability, it might be value for money, it might be outright speed. Could be any number of things, but with (again) few exceptions, a no soak stone is a pretty poor substitute in one or more aspects than a 'soaking' stone.

If a stone is difficult to use, in that it's not very nice to flatten or clogs or has stiction issue or skating issues or any number of things that mean I have to do a work around to use it effectively, then I can't honestly consider it to be superior.

Especially when the choices of stones that do NOT exhibit these undesirable traits often need a 'drink' before use, I think it's quite fair to assume that if no-soak is an essential trait, then I'm going to have to give up something else that is, ultimately, more important to myself at least.

Sure, there are any number of folks who have no-soak stones who love them and can't imagine anything better. That's great. If it's not broken, don't fix it.

But at the same time, if they who love their no-soak stones never used anything that works better, how are they to know what they're missing?

Just an observation, nothing more.

(Actually, it's more like a slap in the face to some folks I'm sure. If so, well, that's the way it is. I've shed more tears in the past week than any other time in my life, and have grown awfully tired of trying to sugar coat things to avoid hurting feelings. In the case of a Shapton Pro 1K, it's a very good stone and is no soak. It's one of the very few stones I'd recommend without much of a reservation that earns that honour, but it's also quite thin (15mm vs. standard 25mm) and it's not at all inexpensive compared to other stones out there that will get the job done just as well.)

Stu.

[Bobby O'Neal]

I'm not so concerned with making a mess as much as I am desiring speed. I don't want to trade pure speed for less sharp, but I'd like it to be as fast as possible and get back to work. How long is an average soak time? Depend on brand?

[David Weaver]

The shapton 1k pro is the only non-soaking stone I would consider. And I would consider that and any finish stone. I have, for years, used that in general to sharpen things - a shapton 1k pro and a 15k pro. Though a glasstone would be OK, I don't like the message it sends to the buyer when shapton decides to provide 5mm of abrasive for the same price as 15mm of abrasive.

No stone in that 1 micron range should need soaking, there there is at least one that benefits from it (the chosera). Maybe more do.

For lower price, you could look from japan for the shapton cream (i think it's supposedly something like 1.2x microns) as a good option low price (it should be available somewhere for about $90), or as the kitayama 8k stone (just don't buy it from JWW, because it's $20 more there than it is from cutlery suppliers who also ship it for free). I think I paid $68 for my kitayama a few years ago, there are many places now that have them for $75.

The fujibato house brand stone is also a good option as a "tweener" ("magnesia 6000" on ebay), and it is CHEAP. It cuts well and it has a really great feel - as good as any stone I've tried.

Stu's 13k stone is great in a two finish stone rotation, but so fine that I think you want to go to it from a 6k stone or something - it is definitely finer in use than a fresh shapton pro cream (japan), a bit finer than the US 15k pro, and finer than the 16k glasstone. It has a nice feel, too. Cut speed with a fresh stone is proportional to grit size, none of these stones are slow cutters (pro cream 1.23(?) microns, pro 15k, 0.98 microns, 16k glasstone 0.92 microns and the SP 13k about 0.73 (did I get that right, stu?).). For quick and fine, they're all better than old tech stones.

[David Weaver]

I'm not so concerned with making a mess as much as I am desiring speed. I don't want to trade pure speed for less sharp, but I'd like it to be as fast as possible and get back to work. How long is an average soak time? Depend on brand?

Soak's not bad on a stone that you can leave soaked. On stones that you can't soak permanently, it goes from 5 minutes to probably 20 to get the most out of a stone, depending on what stone it is. Every stone that I know of that needs to be soaked will work well with 5 minutes of soak, though, even if it works better with 20.

If I were going to soak stones, I would use stu's SP hard (or whatever they're called) stones, because you can leave them in water indefinitely, which really negates the soaking being a pain.

[David Weaver]

We do get into talk about stiction every time shaptons come up. I'd say (as a long time shapton user) that stiction is pretty easily overcome by technique. Many probably will not bother with technique, but it is worth the trouble to learn, and the investment in time and thought is minimal.

All in all, I can't see a practical difference between any of the high dollar stones (and all of the ceramics are high dollar compared to king on a discount cost), and that includes the choseras, and that includes sharpness for time spent. I like the choseras a lot, but I don't like them twice as much as anything, and my chosera 10k is 3 times what I had to pay for a shapton 15k pro. In terms of time spent, it should take longer to take a bench plane apart, put it back together and set the iron than it does to sharpen the iron.

Any stones we're talking about should and will take care of a chisel that's dulled by regular use in 30 seconds. And do the same at least 10 times before any thought is made toward flattening.

[Jim Matthews]

The key element is in keeping your stone flat.
That's the baseline for performance; it's also what makes less friable stones like the Shapton finicky.
(Getting them flat can be a chore.)

Sandpaper to get close in grinding, your pick of stones for the rest and a serviceable honing guide to make it easily repeatable.
I like the Shaptons because they take up little space, and get me up an running in less than three minutes with my handplane blades.

If it gets you back to cutting wood, then it works.

I would recommend learning how to get the most from a cabinet scraper, if a fine level of finish is your goal.
Learning how to get that square and sharp with stones was an eye opener.

[Bobby O'Neal]

Definately interested in learning more about sharpening card scrapers. I have done ok with paper and a burnisher but I know it's not what it could be.

[Danny Burns]

Scary Sharp for me ... all the way .... now.

With the diamond lapping films (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=68943&cat=51&ap=1) new to Lee Valley, I'm thinking that using these films on a granite surface plate that is extremely flat, will put a real nice edge on my tools.
Unlike any waterstone that will wear at different rates, and so dish, I need only to change to a new sheet once warn-out.

I am just wondering though how long a film will last me???

Also not sure if going to the finest grit is necessary, so I will have to give it a try and see.

[David Weaver]

If you go with expensive films, keep some cheap sandpaper or a cheap medium/medium coarse stone around to grind the aggressiveness off of nicks and chips. You don't want those ripping mylar (or whatever they're backed with).

Surface cleanliness is big time important, too, or you'll just have a nub that you also slice right through or clank over.

The 0.1 micron films are interesting to me, but for sharpening razors. I'd love to give one of them a whack for razors, especially with a little oil. I wish someone made some films with a rounded abrasive, like tiny garnets - it would be fantastic for razors.

[Trey Palmer]

I've actually been going the other way for a little while -- I bought 1K and 5K Shaptons (orange and purple) and I'm using lapping film for final honing, planning to add the 12K Shapton (cream?) soon. I already had a supply of lapping film and it lasts much longer than the coarser grit, which I have pretty well used up.

What I have found, though, is that much of the time I try to get away without honing past the 5K stone, which of course does not yield great results. So I need to go ahead and order the 12K.

I can definitely see how soaking stones would offer many advantages, starting with price. My reason for non-soaking stones is the lack of any real dedicated shop space.

[David Weaver]

palm strop off your 5k stone. Hold your iron or chisel or whatever you're using still and wipe your palm over the edge back and forth quickly and lightly (not along it, of course, that'll do some damage). Do it for maybe 10 seconds, and make the last "wipe" over the edge with your palm so that you're pushing whatever of the edge is moving on the side of the chisel or iron that is "under", of that makes sense. Whatever direction the last wipe of the hand is on whatever you're sharpening, the side that you just wiped away from will have good keenness.

A lot of the trouble with keenness at that level of sharpness probably has to do with the wire edge, which isn't nearly as persistent once you're around a micron (where most of the moderately priced super-finish stones are). Even then, there is a little keenness to gain by palm stropping, but it's probably not a functional improvement on those super fine stones for woodworking - you're going to blast the bleeding edge away with wear as soon as the tool meets wood, anyway.

[Trey Palmer]

Thanks for the tip. Though I have to admit, that sounds like the method that should truly be named "scary sharp"! ;-)



Anyway, you apparently think there's no real plus in going to the 12K stone? :)

[David Weaver]

No, there's definitely a plus - it's a finer stone and it still cuts fast on everything but HSS (which might lead to a question, but my answer to that would be that i wouldn't buy a stone to use on all of my steels just because it can cut HSS well - it leads to compromises on the majority of what you'll use that I don't really like).

Anyway, the 12k shapton is much finer than the 5k, but you can get functional edges that are easily hair-removing sharp with the 5k if you just rub the wire edge off. Once you do it a couple of times, you'll figure out that it's not as dangerous as it might seem, and moving your hand back and forth over the edge lightly is easier than angling the tool all over the place to do it.

you can also play around with letting the surface of the 5k dry off and load just a little bit and notice how much brighter the polish gets.

But I'd still get the 12k (or really any fine finish stone, but a 12k can be had for about $98 shipped on ebay, or $90 shipped if takeshi kuroda ("japanese metal master" on google) ever gets them back in).

If you already know you like the feel of the shaptons, you don't have to guess much.