Thoughts on tool quality

[Tom Walz]

I had a very good, private question from a new member. It addressed some things I meant to share anyway.

Unfortunately better quality tools have to be more expensive.

You can take flour and water and make a tortilla or you can take flour and water and make a German chocolate cake. The German chocolate cake will have more ingredients and take more time.

Unfortunately it is not that easy to see with steel and carbide in tools. Better tools typically use better steel. There is common steel which is iron with a little bit of carbon in it. The big use for this is an structural framing for buildings. It is sometimes used in tools where it can make an okay tool. Your better tools will have elements added such as chrome, vanadium, nickel, cobalt, etc. These additives do things like prevent corrosion, make a harder and tougher tool that is less likely to break and will take a great deal longer to wear out.

In the case of Woodpeckers, as with many other really good tools, there is also a great deal of time and care spent in the design and manufacturing process.

Another factor is that it takes really good tools to make really good tools. As an example, you can make tables out of 4 x 4's, 2 x 4’s and a sheet of plywood using nothing but a cheap tape measure and handsaw. You can do it in a hurry and make a pretty good, sturdy, fairly level table. As you get into fancier, nicer tables you will need more and better tools.

There is nothing wrong with buying cheap tools if you are getting started. If you saw my posts on kids toolsets you will see where you got some real bargains on tools for the grandkids for Christmas. These were good tools at really good prices. Their dad replaced his original socket set with a much better socket set and gave his kids the old socket set.

Finally tools, especially handheld tools, are often a matter of individual taste. As an example, there is an old Golden Retriever sleeping on my office floor as I write this. I was raised with Golden Retrievers I like Golden Retrievers. I am aware and will freely admit that there are many other breeds of dogs with virtues superior to mine but I like my dog.

You see this same sort of thing in saw blades. A good carbide tipped saw blade will have several angles on tip. There is an angle on top, there is an angle up and down the face, there is an angle up and down the side, and there is an angle on the side from the face to the back of the tip. There is also a matter of side clearance which is how far the tip sticks out from the edge of the saw plate. All these angles influence how the saw blade cuts. To a large part these determine how fast you can cut, how clean your cuts will be and whether the blade will heat up during cutting or not.

If you're using one brand of saw blade and you'll get to know that saw blade and know how to use it for the best results. If you switch to a different brand of saw blades, even if it is for this is labeled for the same kind of use, you may get different results until you learn to use the new saw blade because they grind angles or the side clearance or something else is different.

Tom

[Van Huskey]

Good points. It is usually the case that you can still BUY quality, go to the top competition and buy their upper level and you will have good tools and tooling. With a hobby like woodworking that is beyond the budget for most (all?) of us here. A basic shop would be well into 6 figures! The key is shopping the middle and lower middle ground for most items and learning where to splurge on the individual upper level item. For me I think the best place to spend extra money is on tooling. An Altendorf won't cut much better than a Harbor Freight saw if there is a horrible blade in it but a well tuned Craftsman contractors saw can leave a surface on plywood like the Altendorf if there is a quality Hi-ATB blade in it.

[Victor Robinson]

Well said, Tom.

How about the axiom "you get what you pay for?" Law of diminishing returns aside, I've found that to be true in every single one of my tool purchases. Could I have gotten nicer tools right off the bat? Maybe, but it would have been hard. It's not that my financial situation changed for the better, it's just that the justifications changed and I began to understand my needs better. That could only happen after I became aware of the limitations of the cheaper tools, and THAT could only happen until after I owned and used the cheaper tools.

[Dave Bower]

The quality of a tool alone will not build a project; they just make the process more enjoyable, easier and faster. Having said that, I simply just don’t like buying or using cheap tools. Not because I’m wealthy enough, (I’m not) but because after many years of working with tools to make a living (mechanic), I’ve learned a hard lesson that cheap tools cost more in the long run.
Add to that, I refuse to shop at places like Harbor Fright. I just refuse to support a company that sells almost 100% Chinese imported junk.

[glenn bradley]

Good info Tom. thanks. I am very much in Van's camp as to where to spend my money. Cutters are one thing I have learned not to go cheap on. My shop has items that are embarrassingly crude yet functional (some are my own creation). These items may never be upgraded as they perform the task required. I also have items that I paid near top dollar for (I have a low priority wish list that gets filled as deals come along) and wouldn't want a lesser item; I'd rather do without. Then there is the bulk of my shop that lands in the middle somewhere. As Tom describes in referring to a cutter, these tools, powered or otherwise, do a better job as I learn their limitations and their strengths and take advantage of them. If my skills or my needs eventually exceed the capabilities of the tool, I upgrade when possible.

[Jerome Hanby]

You may be paying a premium price for Woodpecker quality, but they do a few little things to take a little of the sting off of that outlay. The MDF cases are a nice touch and the color is really nice. Man the stuff is addictive. I think Tom has undone me. He included a Woodpecker catalog in my order and I'm already skipping lunches and going through the sofa cushions trying to fund my new wish list!

[Van Huskey]

You may be paying a premium price for Woodpecker quality, but they do a few little things to take a little of the sting off of that outlay. The MDF cases are a nice touch and the color is really nice. Man the stuff is addictive. I think Tom has undone me. He included a Woodpecker catalog in my order and I'm already skipping lunches and going through the sofa cushions trying to fund my new wish list!

I have always wanted to put a Lee Valley catalog and a Woodpecker catalog in a ring and drop ten $100 bills in the middle! A PETA friendly version of dog fighting.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Sadly, I missed their Paolini Pocket Rule. Wanted to buy one or two.... <sigh>. I would be beating on their door if I thought that they would have some at the show.

[Jerome Hanby]

maybe it's some weird web page generation thing, but I Googled that and got this link (http://www.woodpeck.com/paolini.html). It indicates that they are shipping Feb 2012. Think I'll see if it will let me order...


Sadly, I missed their Paolini Pocket Rule. Wanted to buy one or two.... <sigh>. I would be beating on their door if I thought that they would have some at the show.

[Bill White]

Though I often think of the axiom, "It ain't the arrow. Its the Indian", I choose to use the equip. and tooling that will yield the best results. I have a mixed bag of power-hand tooling that have been acquired based on function, need, and value. There is (in my mind) no way to spend your way into mastering our craft.
I don't know of any old master woodworker who excelled because of digital micrometeric absolutes (or polyurethane).
Bill

[Jerome Hanby]

TThere is (in my mind) no way to spend your way into mastering our craft.
Bill

But it sure is fun to try!

[Russ D Wood]

I am a hobby woodworker. I am NOT a GOOD woodworker, but I just enjoy the heck out of it! When I retired and built my dream shop I had no idea of what I would end up doing in my shop other that it would be wood related. So my issue was what to get in the way of tools and of what quality just as this thread is reviewing. At that point in time in my hobby the difference between a $200 hand tool and a $50 HF hand tool would have NO impact on the quality of what I was building. In the 4 years since then I have updated some of my HF stuff. I had started out with no preconceived notions about what I could or could not do with any of these tools. On my majors I did buy quality based on forums such as this one. I have a cnc router, cabinet saw, 19 inch bandsaw, etc,. But my buying at HF allowed me to have many tools both hand and powered. It has let me experiment and decide what to use and what I might need to upgrade. I am very slowly getting a little better and as such I have updated a couple of the HF items. Did I waste money by going the HF route, I really don't think so. My bottomline for my hobby was to have some fun in my dream shop. If it ain't fun don't do it and doing it my way has been a ball! Russ

[Rod Sheridan]

The old line that better tools don't make you a better worker is sorta true..................except it's also false.

Think about the first time you tried to build a simple sheet goods cabinet and the pieces weren't square, or even the same sizes. How did the cabinet turn out?

Pretty poorly didn't it?

Now imagine if your next door neighbour had an Altendorf slider in her garage, and she showed you how to cut the pieces out of the sheet of plywood you had.

Would it have looked better? Darn right it would have, and it wouldn't be because you were in a different garage, it would have been because you used a high quality tool that had the capacity and the accuracy instead of a cheap $100 tablesaw.

Now how about chopping a mortise and I give you a cheap $5 chisel that the edge folds over on, or a nice $100 mortise chisel that cuts properly. How would your mortises look then?

Sure, after a lifetime of practise we can make some nice stuff using inferior tools, but that's not true when you're starting out, and as an expert you can make stuff nicer and faster with good tools as well.

I also agree that most start with cheap tools and upgrade them over time, that's exactly what I did, however that's no more valid than deciding you want to get into woodworking and writing your Felder or MiniMax dealer a big cheque and skipping all the upgrades.

Regards, Rod.

[Van Huskey]

Though I often think of the axiom, "It ain't the arrow. Its the Indian", I choose to use the equip. and tooling that will yield the best results. I have a mixed bag of power-hand tooling that have been acquired based on function, need, and value. There is (in my mind) no way to spend your way into mastering our craft.
I don't know of any old master woodworker who excelled because of digital micrometeric absolutes (or polyurethane).
Bill

I don't think anyone can argue you can spend your way into mastery, though someone could look at some of my tools or tooling and think I believe that!

I do think the Indian/Arrow is fatally flawed though I hear it all the time. Give an archer like Brady Ellison poorly balanced, crooked arrows with nasty fletching and I could probably school him with proper equipment. A master will always be better at overcoming or going around the limitations of the tools but there is a point where the tools are poor enough that an average woodworker will produce a better final product with excellent tools than the master will with poor tools.

[Stephen Cherry]

Unfortunately better quality tools have to be more expensive.




Although better tools can be more expensive, I don't think that they need to be. For example, I just looked at the woodpecker lift, and router. It's over 600 dollars without the table or fence. I have an scmi shaper which I paid the same amount of money for, and the fence alone for this machine is heavier than just about any router table setup I have heard of. The lift mechanism is much, much more robust than a woodpecker lift.

For saws, I have a felder K975, which I bought for a little more than a big sawstop ( and later sunk some more money into). But the Felder is much much better, and in my opinion safer. Even my little inca saw (I think about 600 dollars) is vastly better quality than a sawstop. The inca is a gem, and the sawstop is something less. (my opinions) And the inca was much less money than a sawstop, or comparable delta or powermatic saw.

Hand tools. Look around. Stanley no 4 planes are everywhere, and they work great. They really are yardsale items. My favorite plane is an ece primus plane (about 20 bucks), and I like it better than my Lie Nielsen no 4. Good hand tools will come up on craigslist.

It's my opinion that we are now in a golden age of tool availability. Never before have good machines and tools been available for such low prices. Of course, you have to filter out the tools that are not good, but that has always been the case.

[Van Huskey]

Stephen, that is an apples and oranges argument. When SCMI can build a shaper and sell it for a little more than a WP lift and PC router it will be a different story. The shaper you bought was MUCH more than a router and lift new and will remain so, someone has to buy the new item and has to pay MUCH more for it. Quality almost always costs and the fact we can get great used machines for very little money doesn't change that formula, the quality cost someone.

[Stephen Cherry]

Stephen, that is an apples and oranges argument. When SCMI can build a shaper and sell it for a little more than a WP lift and PC router it will be a different story. The shaper you bought was MUCH more than a router and lift new and will remain so, someone has to buy the new item and has to pay MUCH more for it. Quality almost always costs and the fact we can get great used machines for very little money doesn't change that formula, the quality cost someone.

Van- that is very true. An scmi shaper is much more than a router with a good lift. One thing I try to emphasize is that you really do not need to loose your shirt if you want to do woodworking. It's possible to buy good machines at values that will not depriciate drastically the moment you pick up the machine. I've got a car sitting in front of my house that I paid rediculous money for and now is worth a small fraction. I do not want to continuously make the same mistake, so I've been trying to avoid depriciating assets.

For example, I do have a normal router with lift. It's a big PC variable speed router, with a Mast r lift. It's a pretty good setup. It's hard to say what I paid because it was a package deal. As I recall, it was the router and lift, a maple bench top with wilton vises, lots of bessy cabinet clamps (over 10, maybe 20, these are not cheap), a stanley no 6, some other planes, a bunch of router bits, AND an Oneida 3 hp cyclone with about 1500 dollars of duct. All this was 1800 dollars. Who knows what I could get for all of this, I have never bought any machine with the thought of reselling. But, I think that if I wanted to I could get my money back if I needed to.

Of course, some people like to have new, and I am happy about that. THis is what allows others to get a good deal later.

So, in conclusion of my rant, it's possible to buy quality tools and own them as "money in the bank", and it's also possible to own them as "money down the drain". It's up to everyone to choose for themselves.

[Eric McCune]

My theory is buy the best tools you can afford and enjoy the creative process. When I buy a cheaper tool it almost always ends in frustration or buying the tool twice. Buy the right tool wince once, buy the wrong tool wince every time you use it. I hope to be doing this hobby for 40 years, so I'm taking the long term approach.

[David Kumm]

Stephen and Van, we need to keep the used secret to ourselves- until we sell. Seriously, when I see the prices of new average or less equipment I realize it is getting more difficult to actually overpay for some used stuff. The market is so low that with more than a little homework you can equip a commercial quality shop for hobby prices. Of course the trailer, forklift, phase converter, etc are part of the deal. Dave

[Bruce Wrenn]

Quality is like buying oats: If you want nice fresh clean oats they will cost you, but if you don't mind if they have been through the horse, then they are cheaper. I buy quality as much as possible, but some things are over priced. As an example the Forrest WWII blade. I own two, and paid a little under $100 for each. Only one has ever been on the saw. I also own several Delta / DeWalt 7657 blades, one of which is on the saw most of the time. The 7657 delivers just as good of cut as the Forrest, but I can buy five for about the same as one Forrest. My Grizzly jointer (bought used for $100) does everything I ask of it, so I can't see buying another more expensive unit. As for HF, I have several tools that more than serve my needs: Dial caliper, dial indicator, and magnetic base, digital caliper, HVLP spray guns, 6-n1 nail gun, brad / stapler combo, multi-tool. I own two of the HF multi-tools (bought the second in case the first quit.) Had them for almost five years now with no problems. My son gave me a Fein (quick release model) that he rescued from a dumpster. In my work, I use the HF's regularly. Never have bothered to buy a blade for the Fein.

[Van Huskey]

Stephen and Van, we need to keep the used secret to ourselves- until we sell. Seriously, when I see the prices of new average or less equipment I realize it is getting more difficult to actually overpay for some used stuff. The market is so low that with more than a little homework you can equip a commercial quality shop for hobby prices. Of course the trailer, forklift, phase converter, etc are part of the deal. Dave


Woodworkers and used equipment is a weird combination. Many don't seem to be able to source it, even today, and many more don't want to deal with it. I was just looking at used machines this weekend and was marvelling at the fact I could get a rebuilt machine for the price of its Grizzly "equal". You can actually do much better but this was with a professional rehab and sold at what is really a market premium. The reality is even in a depressed market like today the fair market value of quality used machines is still way more than the FMV of low quality stuff, though you tend to see more of it overpriced. My point is even in the used market quality still costs.

[john lawson]

I try to buy value, and for me that is buying high quality at a low or medium price. For example, I own a Rojek 5 function machine. It cost about half as much as a comparably equipped Felder, and about 2/3 the price of a Mini Max. It probably cost 1/4 or 1/5 the cost of a Knapp.

My experience is that there is a cost value continuum that is sort of logarithmic; that last 10% of quality will cost you double or triple. If you think about cars, trucks, or premium sound equipment the very best will cost you 3x to 10x what something else will cost that will do the job. Toyota Corolla vs. Ferrari. Will the Toyota outperform the Ferrari? No way, but most people do not need nor could they properly "use" the Ferrari (but it would be great to try).

I use a 5 sided cut to set the crosscut fence on my Rojek and it stays square and cuts great, but it is not a Felder or Knapp. But I don't have to have a those machines for what I do, and if I do say so, I make some pretty nice and precise furniture using my Rojek.

I agree very strongly with what others have mentioned about used equipment. The only new piece I own is the Rojek (now 10 years old). I bought a mid 1980s Centauro bandsaw for $800. With some elbow grease and paint and a VFD I have a really nice bandsaw that few people have the pleasure of using. I also bought a used Woodpecker Router table, 3hp PC router and a Masterlift for $350 and it was virtually new, just lucky. Last, I own a 1952 Shopmith 10ER that is my go to machine as a drill press and horizontal boring machine. It is ancient, but very well made and reliable.

I buy and use good quality equipment, but I usually don't pay much for it.

A last thought, I bought my son a WoodRiver #5 v3 from Woodcraft last year for his birthday. It took ten minutes to hone the blade and it cuts as good as any plane I have ever used, including a Lie Nielson, and it is very well made. Price about 40% of the cost of the Lie Nielson.

john

[Pete Moe]

Putting together a shop of decent tools is like a journey to me, and it's been part of the fun. Craigslist has a bunch of overpriced crap (including HF items listed for more than their original sale price), but every now and again there are good tools at good prices. I've met some pretty cool folks accumulating tools from CL. I buy the best quality tool that I can afford, and upgrade when I've discovered all its flaws and drawbacks. Other people do this too, because I see them on CL all the time. Good tools at good prices go quickly there, but I've managed to get some scores. I would much rather buy old American than import old or new, but there's a mix in my shop. I'm still waiting for a Unisaw to show up on craigslist with the heading "Old Saw Free to Good Home".

Some cheap tools you just cant get setup properly now matter how hard you try. I'd much rather have an old tool with fewer features, good steel, and dead flat/square/etc than a new tool with more features and bad fit and finish.

Oh, and is anyone free this weekend to help me pick up a Griz G1073 BS and get it loaded into my basement?

[David Kumm]

Van's point about used is correct. Mediocre used stuff- and there is a lot of it out there- tends to be overpriced compared to its value even though the dollar amount is low. Higher end machines are the best deal. Some old table saws, tanny, Yates, Greenlee, Whitney are priced less than a nice unisaw. An old 12" jointer may be less than a DJ 20. It pays to study the machine and the market. There are even bargains in the euro market. A Knapp, if you find one is likely to be less than either a Felder or MM even though the build quality is way better and most parts can be sourced elsewhere. I would argue that the comparison to oats is incorrect. More like a diamond passing through the horse if you know what diamonds look like. Dave

[Rick Fisher]

I think buying quality used machinery is really the best solution.. I often see people looking at used, but wanting to buy new so they will have a warranty and have no " problems"

A few years back I bought a new General Int 20" Planer new, it came with a pinched wire in the motor, as soon as I tried to fire it up, it cooked.
My new General Int. Drum sander blew a circuit board on the variable speed 4 months after I bought it. In both cases, the repair was done in my shop, I was the mechanic.
I had a new General 15" Wide Belt that had a factory issue which meant me tearing down the top end and adjusting a bolt..
My new Steel City edge sander table locking handle broke, they sent me a new one and I installed it myself..

All those repairs where done on new machines, under warranty.. What I learned was that buying new does not mean not pulling wrenches.. Woodworking machinery means pulling wrenches from time to time, so why not pull wrenches on used machinery instead of new ?

I have since bought and restored an SCM 24" Bandsaw.. Bought a demo Griggio Jointer, a 9 year old SCM Wide Belt Sander and recently a 5-6 year old Felder Edge Sander ... I am a big fan of used higher quality stuff...

[Bill LaPointe]

All of us started our hobby (or profession) as novices. We bought things, in many cases, because we didn't know any better. This applies to expensive tools as well as low cost ones. As we got better at what we were doing, it didn't take long to realize that a tool was just not capable of what we were expecting it to do. So we bought a better one, based on advice from others or just knowing what we wanted a tool to do. As your spendable income increases, you might decide to buy a tool not because you need it or that it will help you do better work, but just 'cause you want it. I'm bad to do that with both tools and pistols, just can't help myself. I'm in the "look for a bargain in a top of the line used tool" bunch. Made some big goofs there, too, but enjoyed the lessons. (mostly) Expensive aint always better, but quality always is.

[Jim Matthews]

I don't think anyone can argue you can spend your way into mastery, though someone could look at some of my tools or tooling and think I believe that!

I do think the Indian/Arrow is fatally flawed though I here it all the time. Give an archer like Brady Ellison poorly balanced, crooked arrows with nasty fletching and I could probably school him with proper equipment. A master will always be better at overcoming or going around the limitations of the tools but there is a point where the tools are poor enough that an average woodworker will produce a better final product with excellent tools than the master will with poor tools.

The same school of thought is behind many schoolkids abandoning musical pursuits, due to instruments that never perform properly.
There are pedagogs supporting a theory that the rank beginner benefits most from premium implements, as these don't interfere with learning.

I won't attend another woodworking class where the students bring their own tools; 2/3 of the class time is wasted trying to get the hand plane shaped objects to cut straight.

[John Coloccia]

I can't afford to buy cheap tools. The only thing worse than not having a tool is spending money on a tool that doesn't work properly. Now I'm out however much the tool cost, I've lost room in my shop and I STILL don't have a working tool.

[Alan Lightstone]

I've stopped buying cheap tools. I've become a real believer in buy once, cry once. I can't tell you how many crappy tools I've given away over the years.

[Kirk Poore]

Buying used tools generally will require acquisition of a second skill set--machinery repair. For most stuff, it's not hard, but it can be a real nail biter the first time you, say, change the bearings in an electric motor. There are a lot of guys who don't have the time or desire to learn how to repair things. That's OK--I don't like fixing my cars, and don't want to spend time on it. I just want to drive (and maybe do oil changes). I learned how to do the repairs because I wanted bigger machines that were only available used. Now I'm down to one machine bought new--a 1990's Jet bandsaw. The next newest machine is from the 1960's. If you have the mechanical inclination, and the time, used is really the way to get bang for your buck.

Kirk

[Jerrimy Snook]

One of the things I see all too often is that a quality tool was purchased for the incorrect application. A high quality tool works best in the application it was designed for. Finish saw for trim or veneer, nail saw for reclaimed lumber, rip saw for ripping, etc. Mix them up and you have a mess.

A great thing about this forum is the shared knowledge and experience. However, other peoples experience is a starting point, your own results may vary, and nobody, except maybe Van, has tried everything.

Jerrimy

[Tom Walz]

Dear Mr. Cherry:

You are correct, of course. I was approaching the subject from a material science aspect. Alloy steel is more expensive to make than common steel and, I feel, can make a big difference in tools.

You certainly can buy a tool you like better for less money than a tool with a big reputation.

As for buying used tools, I believe Kirk Poore expressed my thoughts beautifully.

Tom

[Jerome Hanby]

Buying used tools generally will require acquisition of a second skill set--machinery repair.
Kirk

That's a pretty good observation. I bet the dividing line between the folks that always buy used and those that never buy anything but brand new is pretty close the same line as those that already have repair skills and those that do not. While I didn't have it nearly as rough as my Mom and her siblings did growing up, I was still a lot closer to “Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without” than most folks of my generation. I spent a lot of my time growing up working out how to repair things at home. My first car started as pretty much a pile that wouldn't run more than 30 minutes without starting to overheat if you could even get it to crank. I wet sanded it down, painted it red, replaced the whole cooling system with help from JC Whitney, and rewired most of it before I was ever able to put it on the road (and take it right back off when I discovered the pitman arm was very worn and loose and the front end would go into oscillations when you hit a good bump. While I wouldn't begin to work on a modern car other than brakes and other maintenance chores, my shop equipment and any equipment likely to ever be on my shop is fairly simple and I have no qualms about working on it.

[Van Huskey]

One of the things I see all too often is that a quality tool was purchased for the incorrect application. A high quality tool works best in the application it was designed for. Finish saw for trim or veneer, nail saw for reclaimed lumber, rip saw for ripping, etc. Mix them up and you have a mess.

A great thing about this forum is the shared knowledge and experience. However, other peoples experience is a starting point, your own results may vary, and nobody, except maybe Van, has tried everything.

Jerrimy

That is very true regarding the right tool for the job. It is true with machines also, I see people buy a huge old high quality bandsaw like a Tanny GH and toss out their "lesser" saws. Then they realize the Tannewitz doesn't like narrow blades.

Although I am FAR from trying everything I do have a disease that requires me to seek out every possible tool and try it out, Creekers probably hate when I come to visit because I want to use everything they have! I probably should work on being less opinionated since there are people here like you Jerrimy who have FAR more practical experience than I do!

Although, we are far afield from what I think Tom originally intended I do have one other note about used machines. Used machines are obviously a mixed bag and one has to learn not only what is repairable/rehabable but where to draw the line on time/cost. Too often I get stuck on a particular machine and fall in love with it, buy it since I may "never" see one again only to drown in the little things it takes to get it back to 100%. I have a project bandsaw that is like that now. Sometimes you have to look at used machines differently than buying new, you have to be willing to cut the cord and make it up on the nxt machine. Thats the reason I think it is good for the first time used buyer to get something close to a plug and play machine, maybe even paying a little more to buy it from a reputable used dealer. I sorta stand in the middle on new vs used there are a lot of factors that make new a better choice for some people. On the opposite end there are those with a truck/trailer, tractor with forks, a metal working shop, years of machine work under their belt and the time and desire to make an old machine better than new again. My suggestion to the people in between is search for a bargain piece that you would like to have but isn't required for the project you are neck deep in, find something that isn't rare so parts and knowledge are plentiful and strip the entire thing down as far as possible and build it back up with nice fresh paint and all new bearings. The $400 or so bucks you put into a Delta 14" bandsaw for example will gain you a nice saw and teach you not to be afraid to dive into the guts of a machine, if you end up with a saw that runs backwards, spits sparks out of the motor and the wheels are at 45 degree angles to each other then you will have learned used isn't your market place. One of the best monetary parts about used machines is if you buy quality used machines (no 15 year old Grizzly or Jet) it would be rare to not be able to get your money back out of them.

[Jerrimy Snook]

Van, my comment was in respect to you and your posts, I see value in each one. Your "disease" and your ability to share those experiences are the reason that I try to read what you write. I wish I had some of the invaluable experience that you have.

My experience is from a different perspective than yours. I look at tools, saw blades specifically, as a tool sharpener and not the guy using it. I look at a blade and can tell if it has cut laminate flooring, hit a nail, cut aluminum, or if pliers were used to hold the blade when removing the nut. I have very little woodworking experience but my customers do, I learn from them much like I learn from this forum. Rarely do I see the finished product manufactured with the tools that I service. When I do see material that is cut, I look at the saw marks and analyze them and think should this blade be modified by .001", would that improve the performance for this customer or slow him down. There are slight differences in blades that will enhance or deter the performance of that blade for each individual user. For my industrial and repeat customers, I can cater the tool to them with different carbide and grind. They still get a high quality American made tool that will perform as it should in their application.

My hope when I reply to a thread is that I help someone. The culmination of experience and opinion is the greatest value here. I gain so much more from this forum than I could possibly add to it.

Jerrimy