Custom Sawmilling - for cants / beams / timbers

[Todd Burch]

I've been calling around my area for prices on sawing dead timber. Big heat wave and drought here in 2011, plus fires, plus there is still residual dead wood from Hurricane Ike. We're in a glut of highly available wood.

One place I called, the guy wants 85 cents/bf to saw my delivered logs. I explained that I don't want "boards", I want "beams". He didn't care - his price was 85.

Moving right along, another place wanted $1/bf to cut my logs that I bring to him, but he would work by the hour, @ $80/hour. Plus, the biggest cant he can cut is 6X6, since he has a Lucas (must be a smaller model). That's too small, and he won't cut Pine - hardwoods only.

I finally found a guy, with a Woodmizer (it's portable, but he won't move it), that charges 50 cents/bf for cutting my lumber, or $50/hour. Now, this is sounding more reasonable.

I'm considering cutting these logs for a timber frame work shop. I'm thinking 8X8s & 10x10s. I've more research to do on this. Shops size would be 40 x 60, 12' ceilings. Anyone know how much wood that would take for the frame and roof structure?

What should I expect to pay (for anyone that has done this recently), or, if you are a sawyer, what's your typical charge for this type of work? Is paying by the hour a better deal? I'm thinking that by the hour would be more economical for me. I really don't want any boards. For instance, if there's a 24" diameter pine log, I'll take the four 8X8's and be done with it - burn the slabs - give them to the sawyer, whatever - just give me the deals.

Todd

[Jeff Duncan]

First thing I'd do is some research to see if that wood has ANY value at all for your purposes. I know very generally speaking hardwood trees are sawed up quickly as delaying can lead to many problems with the lumber down the road. Maybe that's different for post and beam....I honestly don't know???? My gut says to be very wary of spending a lot to cut up wood without knowing for sure it's usable.

Secondly, do you have a plan yet for moving the material? I know this sounds obvious, but big logs are heavy! I mean very very heavy, like your probably not going to be moving 1/2 dozen decent sized cants on a trailer with your F-150. You have to figure out ahead of time the amount of wood your going to need for the frame size you want. Then check into prices to buy the wood already milled up for you. Then compare your estimated costs to mill it including transportation for all the logs and beams. And don't be optimistic, this is heavy nasty work. A guy charging you by the hour isn't going to kill himself to get your logs through quickly...if you know what I mean;)

good luck,
JeffD

[Jim Matthews]

I'm not clear on your location, but try the Heartwood school (http://www.heartwoodschool.com/) in Western Massachusetts.

Perhaps they can steer you toward a graduate of their timberframing program.
An interesting problem, having too much lumber...

[John P Clark]

I also do not know where you are located, but get a professional engineer to review/ design your timber so you know what sizes you need, and how much for each size - just my two cents as a,P.E

[Todd Burch]

I'm in south east Texas. The property owner has a big Kubota and a gooseneck trailer and a dually, and as they are really wanting these logs to be used and not burned, so they offered, for a price of a tank of gas, to haul the logs to the sawyer's location. That's a deal, and easier (and quicker) than me taking 4-5 logs at a time in my 16' trailer with my undersized pickup.

Been there, done this, a LOT, so I know the amount of work it takes. Got two 6' high, 12' long, 4' wide stickered stacks of hardwood and pine in the backyard right now - all that's left from my sawing that started by in '96. I've probably sawn close to 8K bf since '96. Sold most of it. A lot degraded beyond use.

I'm thinking store bought beams will run about $100 a piece - MINIMUM. I just put a call in to get a quote for 16' 8x8s and 10x10s, pine and hardwood.

Amen on the "get an engineer". ;)

[Alex Stace]

it would be slow, but could you use an alaskan sawmill?

[Dean Chapel]

If you call the wood-mizer or one of the other portable sawmill manufacturers, they usually have a listing of their sawmill owners that they can refer work to and provide sawing services.

[Scott T Smith]

Todd, one of the reasons that beams usually cost more to have milled than boards is because of the equipment and labor involved to off-bear them. When you saw a log in to 2 x 8's, one off-bearer can handle the green boards that are produced. If you're pulling off 10 x 10's, you either have to use a front end load to remove every beam, or 3 - 4 off-bearers (depending upon the length - a green 12 footer weighs about 600 lbs).

.50 per bd ft for large timbers is actually pretty cheap nowadays; the other guys are not out of line based upon realistic costs associated with milling.

Proper milling for a timber frame requires a knowledgeable sawyer; you don't just want to throw the logs on the mill and "get what you can" from them. Rather, they should be milled so that there is some symmetry in how the growth rings intersect the faces of the beams; otherwise you will get a lot of distortion as they dry.

In addition to your 8 x 8, 10 x 10 posts, you should mill some beams, girders, rafters and braces based on either a 1:2, 1:3, or 1:4 ratio. As an example, girders can be 3 x 9's, or 4 x 12's, or 6 x 12's, etc., braces can be 4 x 8's, etc.

[Jeff Duncan]

Sounds like you have a good grasp of the labor involved so that's a good start. I'd also check into one other aspect. If this is for a construction project you may have to have the lumber graded in some way to pass local codes. Again, I don't have first hand knowledge, but it's something I think would be worth researching beforehand.

good luck,
jeffD

[Todd Burch]

Thanks Scott and Jeff.

@Scott - very good point about the cut of the log. I'd rather be wasteful and get a good cut than go for max yield. In my early days of sawing (I offloaded as the sawyer sawed), I was so eager to get every last board, I paid to have cut, and drove away with, and stickered, some real crap. Sawyer has a front end loader with forks.

@Jeff - no code where I'm building. Bad logs will come off the mill as fast as they go on it.

[Todd Burch]

it would be slow, but could you use an alaskan sawmill?

I guess I could, but I don't have one, and nor do I have the time or energy for that particular labor of love. ;)

[fred klotz]

I've had a couple of sawmills over the past 35 years, including most recently a 36" bandsaw mill equivalent to one of the WoodMizers. The only sawing I did for others was on shares. If I were to cut for others, I would have probably charged $50 an hour, and cut whatever they wanted, giving them advice about quality and yield. When I would have a helper, who didn't need to know anything more than how to stack and sticker lumber, my output tripled. So, if you can find a sawyer who will let you help, and you are cutting timbers, which go much faster than boards, you will do much better than the prices quoted per board foot by paying by the hour. There's a lot of muscle work involved, even with a fully automated machine. Obviously, the fully automated, one man machines demand more money per hour. And definitely make sure your logs are going to produce what you want. I've done a lot of salvage cutting, and you can spend a fair amount of time getting to good wood. Good Luck!

[Jim Becker]

The local sawyer I use charges by the hour ($60 last time I used him) plus 1/2 hour travel and $25 a blade if metal comes in contact with it. You really do need to work with someone that can handle the size of the material you want to have cut. Contact Woodmizer for referrals.

[Jim Andrew]

I just finished cutting beams for a friend. He thought he had plenty of logs when we started, but we cut what we could, then he went and found more logs and we finally got enough for him to finish his project. Was quite a job. Handling big beams is a lot harder than 1x lumber. And you need big logs for big beams. Luckily he has a 650 T skid steer with a grapple. The grapple really helped, as he could turn the logs slightly to line up with the cracks in the center of the log. We couldn't center up on the logs, as all of them had defects in the center, but could get a nice beam off to the side of center. One log was so big his son got a picture of him standing on top of the log, sitting on the mill, using his chainsaw to trim off a little to let the carriage go by.

[Todd Burch]

Yes, big equipment needs for big logs.

I'm going this afternoon to inspect the logs. Gotta wear my mud boots today. Report will follow.

Todd

[lowell holmes]

I'm not sawyer and have no experience as such.

However, $50/ hour for a machine and labor to run it doesn't sound really high to me.

[Bob Falk]

Todd,
One thing you want to think about is the high moisture content of freshly sawn timbers. If you are cutting beams from logs they will be wet....put them in a timber frame building and start to heat and they will shrink, crack, and move around...don't expect that they will stay straight.....I wouldn't even think about trying to put up any drywall or other finish materials until you have heated the building for a couple of years.

I think there have been some publications about green timber framing published in the past, but most timber framers like using salvaged timbers because they are dry and won't cause the movement problems I describe above.

Bob Falk
US Forest Products Lab

[Todd Burch]

Thanks everyone.

I went and looked at the standing dead timber today. There are several large pines, smaller pines, and a few decent sized sweet gums.

The pines are dead, dead, D.E.A.D dead. Bark falling off dead. The pines are so dead, when they drop, the bark will all fall off - maybe parts of the sapwood too. Powder post beetle heaven - already. Fresh frass everywhere. Some of the sweet gums are also rotten in places - woodpecker holes 4" deep.

I've decided to pass these trees up. To far gone, to much work to fell, buck and move them around for the quantity (few) and quality (poor).

I could cut them down, get them to the mill, have them sawn for few hundred ca$h. (6-7?). However, when I was done sawing, I would have to take them somewhere to sticker, and I really don't have that "somewhere" place right now, and I'm afraid the pine would be so beetle ridden, it would be an issue for the rest of the life of the timbers (and me). My past experience with sweet gum is it doesn't have the best grain structure for resisting sheer forces - it's quicker to break cross grain than split with grain. Finally, as has been mentioned above, moving these timbers around (like, out of a trailer and on to a stickered stack) is something that would take equipment I don't have and would have to buy or rent.

The homeowner was not really trying to talk me out of it (free dead tree removal for him), but commented several times about how cheap wood was right now. (Not sure where he shops - obviously not the same places I shop). So, I stopped by Lowes on the way home. The largest thing they had to compare to what I was looking to saw was a 6X6 x 12' pine timber (treated, and I don't need that) for $32. Kinda high, methinks. Not only was it high, but every single one of them (the whole rack full) contained the center of the tree with all the reaction wood and pith, and, they were already split open on all 4 sides. I guess that's what happen when you dry them overnight (as one company here in town does - OK, I'm exaggerating - the do it in 3 nights).

So I'll keep my ~$700+ and perhaps apply that towards a timber frame kit. Now, I'm off to research timber frame kits.

Again, thanks everyone.

Todd

[Jeff Duncan]

Maybe you could work out a deal with him, assuming he has a good bit of property and plenty of trees on it.....you'll remove the dead stuff if he lets you take an equal amount of good trees? Just a thought.

FWIW the very last place you want to buy lumber is at the local box stores. The prices are OK, but the quality is bottom of the barrel. You'll do much better at your local lumberyard for about the same or maybe a little more $.

good luck,
JeffD

[Todd Burch]

I considered that, but he's in a residential acreage community, on only 5 acres, and he's already lost so many other trees, he was adamant that he was keeping anything still living. Plus, the dead ones were so degraded, I might have gotten 30% yield, and that's not worth the effort. I have a call into my regular lumber supplier to get some quotes on larger timbers (3 calls since last week - dude won't call me back).

[Scott T Smith]

Todd, if you're in SE Texas, you might want to see if you can source some cypress logs/beams in neighboring Louisiana.

[Steve Jenkins]

Todd,
I know I'm a long way from you but there is a place in this area called "Woods of Mission Timber" that might be worth a call.
Their number is 940 458-4750. They saw, kiln dry, and have retail and wholesale pricing.

[Brad Morse]

Todd,

I'm a timber framer, and I also teach at the aforementioned school. Sounds like you've moved away from cutting your own wood, but I just wanted to make a few comments. For most timbers, unless they're very small (we call them scantlings), or the log is very large, the timber should sawn boxed heart, that is centered on the pith. So there's no way to get 4 timbers from one log, unless they're very small, or the log is huge. If you did you'd end up with 4 bananas.

Also most timber framing, both historically and currently is done with green timbers, and there are ways of compensating for the green-ness that can keep your joinery tight (ie drawboring). Bob is right in that green wood is pretty likely to move a bit, depending on lots of factors.

The frame alone for a shop of that size would take 10-20K bd ft of timber. If you did want to hire a PE for a timber frame, I'd recommend finding someone through the Timber Frame Engineering Council.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

[Jim Becker]

Todd, there is one local lumber yard in this area that specializes in carrying doug fir timbers that are often used for structures like you are speaking of. In fact, I bought a piece of the stuff for a lintel when I put a new exterior door in the stone wall of the 250 year old portion of our home. (removed an existing door and termite damaged timbers and replace the lintel with the doug fir) Really nice stuff to work with and quite stable. You might do some searching in your area to see if that might be an alternative to buying a "kit" if you would enjoy "rolling your own".