Grain Filling and finishing Red Oak plywood

[Tim Howell]

222172222177222176222174222173Grain filling Red Oak plywood - My first post - nice site!I bought a sheet of B-2 Red Oak plywood from a cabinet shop, not the Homedepot junk, to modify an entertainment center with. I am cutting the unit dwn from68” high to 30” high x 68” long, and building a new top with some trim aroundit. The sheet of Red Oak plywood is just down right terrible with what I call tearout of the pores in the cathedral grain areas of the surface. Some of the poredepth damage is as deep as .022 or about 20 mils deep. I guess I will have touse a grain filler to smooth out the surface. I stained a small piece of scrap RedOak with a mix of 2 shades of MiniWax oil base stain, a quart of Early Americanw/ 3 tablespoons of Gunstock and got a perfect match of color. It took 3 coatsof stain with 15 minutes of penetration time each, and wiping down between eachcoat to get the color right. That just seems like a lot of time and stain whichin the end feels waxy too the touch. There just seems to be very little pigmentand mostly mineral spirits to this MiniWax stain. I’m nervous about it giving me problems later, so I’m looking for abetter quality stain. I read somewhere here on the forum about Sherwin WilliamsAlkyd stain having more pigment and viscosity. For a grain filler I searched andfound a product called Crystalac that sounds like what I need to fill thepores. All of my work will have to be done by hand as I have no sprayequipment. I still don’t understand how I’m going to wipe on a stain, then workin grain filler and sand it back without getting back into the stain. Very carefullyI guess.I haveresearched the internet and my thoughts for a repair or finishing schedule asyou call it would be:1. Sand with 150g lightly2. Brush and vacuum clean3. Stain oil base (brand/type?) stain,wipe down and allow each coat to dry4. Apply 2 coats of Zinsser de-waxedSealCoat, as a sealer/barrier and carefully sanding back each coat, hoping theSealCoat will give me some clearance and protection above the wipe-on stain.5. Apply 2 or more coats of a grainfiller (hoping to fill the tear outs) with Crystalac Wood Grain Filler, ( it’swater base) sanding back each coat after 24 hours dry time6. Apply 2 more coats of ZinsserSealCoat over the Crystalac as a sealer7. Ready for top coat of either Shellacor Varnish, wipe on oil base or water base Poly.8. Note: not sure of the best top coator the build layers. The oil base stain and water based Crystalac are thereason for the application of the Zinsser SealCoat below and above the grainfiller and provides some protection against sanding thru into the stain. I havenever done any grain filling either. Myresearch says it will work, but the pro’s here may know a better approach. Idon’t have any of the new spray guns only an old DeVilbiss and Binks cup gunand really no place to use it.9. I attached some photos of the plywoodso you could see the grain tears at the pores.10. Image 1 and 2 will show you a viewfrom distance.11. Image 3, 4, & 5 shows the linewhere it starts.12. Image 6, & 7 are closer up.Thanks for any help anyone can offer.

[Scott Holmes]

The Red oak ply looks like rotory cut; the RO on the edge looks to be flat or maybe even quarter sawn.

Sanding with 150 is risky; the RO ply is most likely only 1/40" thick. Most cabinet grade plywoods are presanded to 180 or 220 grit.

As for your staining schedule... make sure you allow the stain to soak in for 5-20 mins then wipe it dry. Adding a 2nd or 3rd coat of stain does very little to add color; the 1st coat seals the wood because it has a varnish binder in the stain. If you want it darker than the one coat gives you make your stain darker or leave it on a bit longer. (also very carefully sanding with 120 grit will help the stain get darker. BE CAREFUL)

As for sealing the stain in with shellac, that is a good idea. One or two light coats of dewaxed seal coat is fine. DON'T sand between coats of shellac. Not needed and "sand through" is very easy. Now apply your grain filler with a squegee. Light sanding after 12 -24 hours with 220 or finer paper. Now top coat.



Now for your top coat... pick a better finish than poly. Poly is for floors! Furniture is better served with a hard varnish not a tough varnish...

[Steve Jenkins]

In additiion to what Scott said. Domestic is usually sliced to .020 then sanded during the manufacturing process so on your panel it will be somewhat less. If the plywood is imported the oak veneer may be as little as .010 thick prior to being sanded by the mfg. You should be able to find out whether the panel is domestic or imported by asking at the place you bought it. I found that out the hard way some years ago when I sanded through an area on a table top. I always checke the edge of the ply to see how thick the face veneer looks but on this panel they made the second ply out of material nearly the same color as the oak face and ran the grain in the same direction instead of cross grain as it should have been.

[Tim Howell]

I wipedon the MiniWax stain, let it soak for a timed 15 minute period and wiped it off3 times with at least 1 day in between applications to get to the matchingcolor (see attachments). I test the adhesion of the stain as seen in the upperright hand corner right in front of the screw in my router plate and as you cansee, it can be picked off with your fingernail. The pigment solid count must bereally low in this product. Many years ago, I used Formby’s wiping stain and itwas much thicker, it penetrated and laid down a nice rich color without thebuildup. The MiniWax looks washed out with anything less than 3 coats. So I’mlooking to use Sherwin Williams (some Alkyd base product ?) per advice fromanother woodworker. I will get ittomorrow – it’s a 60mile drive from here. Any toner stuff or pro items arespecial order and a 2 week wait plus shipping from Sherwin Williams. Living inthe country has its disadvantages.
After theZinsser SealCoat over the Crystalac what would you recommend for a top coat? –finish with Shellac.
Anyonehere ever use the Crystalac grain filler? Good or bad - any special technique.
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[Scott Holmes]

Tim,

FYI - Sherwin Williams owns Minwax lock stock and barrel. I do like SW wiping stains better than Minwax stains.

Crytalac is a good product. Follow directions on label.. I use a squegee to put it on.

To color the wood - You may have better luck with a gel stain. They can be used a a glaze. Building multiple layers of Minwax stain will give you a rather weak foundation for your next steps.

Have you considered using a dye to get a base color then add tone application of stain?

Your sample looks as if a garnet shellac was applied to the right hand edge. Kinda an "L" shape. True?

[Tim Howell]

Is thereanyone left?? When I searched on Zinsser, I found out Rustoluim owns them andseveral other companies I thought were independent.
After allI have been reading – I feel like - I’vebeen to the end of the internet – I can see where dye and all this high tech applicationsare coming in to cover the poor quality of wood and related products – some goodsome bad - all expensive.
Good eyeon the sample. YES – I gave the corner a quick shot of spray can lacquer leftover from one of the wife’s projects. Just to see how the color would change undera gloss to compare it to the old section of the cabinet.
I wouldtry using a dye, but I would have to order it sight unseen as there are nosuppliers with 100 miles of here. I live in N Florida and hardwood is not inthe vocabulary around here.

[Tim Howell]

Steve
The plywood I used is domestic, from Columbia Forest Products. I ordered it from a cabinet shop. The face veneer on the Oak plywood at HD was so thin that it was chipped off around the edges like paper and had a gray tint to it. I expected better from a domestic supplier, but I guess the greed has filtered into the professional wood suppliers too.Some call it a result of competition but for 2.5x the price at HD, I expected better. I remember hardwood plywood having a 1/16 to 3/32 thick face, now the face veneer is only a few thousands thicker than the pores in the wood. I stuck a wire gauge in a pore hole and measured the wire at .018 with a Starret micrometer. That is what caused the problem in this sheet of ply I bought. The tearout, I call it, at some of the cathedrals where the pores come up and run horizontal to the surface are .022 deep. I feel for the professional woodworker, not only have the CNC machines taken out the craftsmanship, but the material you have to work with has gone down the tube too. I learn one thing from this project – As much as I hate too, the next plywood will have an MDF core. I’m learning that it is much flatter and better adhesion between the face veneer and the substrate – therefore decreasing the waviness of the face veneer and less chance of sanding thru on abump or tear out because of the poor adhesion to the uneven substrate.

[Steve Jenkins]

I use mdf core almost exclusively for those reasons. Also the thickness is usually more consistant from sheet to sheet.If you could see what the inner plys look like in regular veneer core you might be amazed. Really nasty stuff. You get some idea from the voids in the edges. As for joinery the much maligned biscuit was designed for use with composite material and even just butt joining and gluing works pretty well with mdf although I wouldn't recommend it as a rule. The two biggest downsides to mdf are the dust when cutting and it tends to split when inserting screws into the edges unless you are careful with your pilot hole size.

[Jerome Hanby]

I've been seeing exactly what you are saying on the inside plys of the plywood I've been buying recently. How does the strength of the MDF core ply compare to typical 7 or 9 layer plywood? My knee jerk notion is that it wouldn't be as rigid or strong and probably wouldn't hold a screw as well.


I use mdf core almost exclusively for those reasons. Also the thickness is usually more consistant from sheet to sheet.If you could see what the inner plys look like in regular veneer core you might be amazed. Really nasty stuff. You get some idea from the voids in the edges. As for joinery the much maligned biscuit was designed for use with composite material and even just butt joining and gluing works pretty well with mdf although I wouldn't recommend it as a rule. The two biggest downsides to mdf are the dust when cutting and it tends to split when inserting screws into the edges unless you are careful with your pilot hole size.

[Steve Jenkins]

When making bookcases I try to limit the length of the shelves to 36" and always put a solid front edge on the shelves. I make the edge 3/4"thick x 1" tall as a rule ( larger for longer shelves or front and back) and have never had any sagging problems even after years. I atttach the edge with biscuits. Mdf holds screws fine in a face application but as I said can split when screwing into edges, I try to keep the screws back about 2" or more from a corner.