Lie Nielsen 16" thin plate Tenon Saw

[Mike Holbrook]

Does anyone have this saw? I read Schwarz's rave review.

I have a Gramercy 14" Sash saw that I have posted about before. I believe my Sash saw uses the same .20 plate and it has a combo tooth pattern. I am constantly amazed at how that little beast flies through wood. I swear it cuts better and faster than larger saws with much larger teeth. I am wondering if the LN saw cuts as fast?

[Chris Griggs]

I wonder about the thin plates saws of this size. We discussed this previously before you bought your Gramercy and when I was contemplating parts for my Wenzloff kits. Mike W and Mark Harrel both say that a tenon saw of that thickness with heat up and temporarily warp in that deep of a cut. When I posted Klaus and Pedder agreed that for anything deeper than 2 3/4" a thicker .025 plate was advised. For that reason I went with .025 for my 14" tenon saw parts. That said, I've never once, heard anyone complain about the thin plate LN, and I must admit that I've been second guessing my decision to go with the .025 over the .020 (haven't got parts yet anyway), at the end of the day I wonder how much of a difernece there is in those two plate thicknesses anyway in terms of what the user will actually notice.

I'm glad you posted this again, as I'm still curious to hear more thoughts on this topic.

[Shawn Stennett]

I have the LN saw but don't have any other newer saws to compare it to really. I really like it and can saw really well with it. Which I think is a big deal since I am usually not a very good sawyer. It took a little bit to get used to the weight of it, and having to lift up on it while getting it started.

[Jim Koepke]

I believe my Sash saw uses the same .20 plate and it has a combo tooth pattern. I am constantly amazed at how that little beast flies through wood. I swear it cuts better and faster than larger saws with much larger teeth.

My answer is merely anecdotal, but having just finished my first combo tooth patterned saw, it does seem to fly through wood faster than other rip saws in my shop with a similar tooth count.

jtk

[Chris Griggs]

My answer is merely anecdotal, but having just finished my first combo tooth patterned saw, it does seem to fly through wood faster than other rip saws in my shop with a similar tooth count.

jtk

This is a bit off topic, but a little more info on combo filing. I brought the 16" Disston I combo filed (5 rake, 8 fleam) a while back to Archie's last time I was there. Actually, I had originally bought it from him and sold it back to him to help pay for some saw parts. Anyway, it was really interesting how in the hands of two differents sawyers the saw performed differently. It work great for both of us with rips, but Archie didn't like it for xcuts the way I did. We pegged this down to a difference in our technique. I tend to saw very gently and really try to let gravity do the work, Archie tends to saw with a bit more speed and force - though no less accurately. With a lighter touch the combo filed saw xcut quite well as I described when I posted a thread about it. However, with more force the surface was rather rough; it looked and felt more like you would expect when xcutting with a rip. Now, I should point out here that this saw has at least a .032" thick blade and the set was just a touch on the heavy side. I wouldn't say it was over set, but rather that it was just more tuned for deep cuts, and for what we were doing would have been better with less set. Therefore, it's not fair to generalize our findings to the Gramercy or Bad Axe hybrid saws, but it was interesting none the less. If nothing else, the experience was a good reminder that two different people can have two very different experiences using the exact same tool. Good thing we have so many to choose from!

[Archie England]

This is a bit off topic, but a little more info on combo filing. I brought the 16" Disston I combo filed (5 rake, 8 fleam) a while back to Archie's last time I was there. Actually, I had originally bought it from him and sold it back to him to help pay for some saw parts. Anyway, it was really interesting how in the hands of two differents sawyers the saw performed differently. It work great for both of us with rips, but Archie didn't like it for xcuts the way I did. We pegged this down to a difference in our technique. I tend to saw very gently and really try to let gravity do the work, Archie tends to saw with a bit more speed and force - though no less accurately. With a lighter touch the combo filed saw xcut quite well as I described when I posted a thread about it. However, with more force the surface was rather rough; it looked and felt more like you would expect when xcutting with a rip. Now, I should point out here that this saw has at least a .032" thick blade and the set was just a touch on the heavy side. I wouldn't say it was over set, but rather that it was just more tuned for deep cuts, and for what we were doing would have been better with less set. Therefore, it's not fair to generalize our findings to the Gramercy or Bad Axe hybrid saws, but it was interesting none the less. If nothing else, the experience was a good reminder that two different people can have two very different experiences using the exact same tool. Good thing we have so many to choose from!

BTW, Chris, I used that 16" saw last evening to crosscut some hard wood and it cut fantastically. I'm guessing that type of wood--soft vs hard--has something to do with the set issue, too. It's certainly a great, beautiful old saw.

[Chris Griggs]

BTW, Chris, I used that 16" saw last evening to crosscut some hard wood and it cut fantastically. I'm guessing that type of wood--soft vs hard--has something to do with the set issue, too. It's certainly a great, beautiful old saw.

Cool! Yep that makes sence. Hybrids are suited for xcutting hardwood not soft. Fleam is more important for softwood. BTW, I'm thrilled you approve of my filing, makes me feel like I'm actually starting to sorta kinda know what I'm doing.

[Tony Shea]

I also this LN 16" thin plate saw and the thing just rips through wood faster than any other back saw I own. I was originally worried about the thin plate but have realized after using the crap out of this saw that it is a NON-issue. I have never once seen any inclination that the plate bows slightly or becomes sticky in the cut and after cutting some thick chunks of Rosewood is straight as an arrow still. I highly reccomend this saw. After getting used to this saw I now almost never use my LN 12" rip saw as I find the plate thickness far too thick. Not sure why they don't do this treatment to all their saws.

[Chris Griggs]

Against, the advice of many people more knowledgeable than myself (including Mike W, Mark Harrel, and Pedder) I just emailed Mike Wenzloff to see about changing my saw parts order from a .025" to a .020" thick plate for the 14" sash. Yes, I know, I have way over thought this. What is wrong me? Mike, stop posting about this stuff, apparently I'm very easily influenced and it just leading me to beat the proverbial dead horse. Hopefully, I won't regret this rash decision.

[Mike Brady]

I've really gotten used to the thin-kerf saws I have, including the large LN tenon saw. There are no drawbacks that I can think of. I also have a Wenzloff thin-kerf dovetail saw and it is like a scalpel compared to my .025 LN dovetail saw. Frankly in a tenon saw the advantage diminishes for me because I almost always dress the cheeks of the tenon with other tools later. The ease of the cut is the goal. I try for good dovetails right off of the saw so the precision of thin kerfs is an advantage there. I'm going to be building a tenon sawing jig with Jeff Miller soon using the L-N saw. It will be interesting to see how the saw works in that jig.

[Mike Holbrook]

Ahhh Chris, we are here to learn, so don't start blowing hot & cold on me now ;-) It was Schwarz that got me started, blame him! I believe Schwarz's explanation is that a thinner blade simply has less, wood to move. It may be as you say in regard to technique. I got use to using thin, folding Japanese saws, for both woodworking & pruning. Maybe I learned to saw with a light touch and therefore find the backsaws with thinner plates match my style.

[Jim Koepke]

If nothing else, the experience was a good reminder that two different people can have two very different experiences using the exact same tool. Good thing we have so many to choose from!

To me, this was one of the reasons for making my first saw handle. The feel in the hand and the balance of the blade through the hang just can't be beat.

Same with the tooth count and geometry.


BTW, Chris, I used that 16" saw last evening to crosscut some hard wood and it cut fantastically. I'm guessing that type of wood--soft vs hard--has something to do with the set issue, too. It's certainly a great, beautiful old saw.

I just went out to the shop to give this a try. My latest saw is very rough when crosscutting pine/fir. I cut an old piece of dry oak and it left a fairly smooth surface. It was a bit rougher both in the handling and finish than my crosscut saw of about the same tooth count. It would not need any more clean up than a piece cut with a saw filed for crosscut.

jtk

[Chris Griggs]

Ahhh Chris, we are here to learn, so don't start blowing hot & cold on me now ;-) It was Schwarz that got me started, blame him! I believe Schwarz's explanation is that a thinner blade simply has less, wood to move. It may be as you say in regard to technique. I got use to using thin, folding Japanese saws, for both woodworking & pruning. Maybe I learned to saw with a light touch and therefore find the backsaws with thinner plates match my style.

Really, I think I'll be fine with thin kerf saw. One reason i decided to go with it is because I do prefer to saw with as light a touch as possible. When I start using pressure I usually just mess up the cut. Gravity and the saw are far more accurate then I am. Also, its not like I'm going to be regularly using it for 4"x3" tenons, so I don't think the heat build up thing will apply for most of what I plan to use it for. I'll make a 16-18 with .025 plate if I find myself needing to cut a lot of larger tenons.

[Mike Holbrook]

I have about the same thoughts. I won a bid on a 16" backsaw that belonged to Pat, who posts here. It is sharp and cuts nice but my Gramercy Sash saw cuts faster for me. It just seems to pull itself through the wood with no effort. It certainly makes much less dust. I agree that saws set up this way cut more accurately, apparently Shawn agrees too. Like I think you are saying, making pressure with the saw can throw it off course. I'm sure people learn to saw with more pressure and control it but I do think it is harder to do and ultimately less accurate. I can see how guys who use 26-28" 4-6 PPI rip saws regularly might get use to sawing with more pressure. If I had started with big hand saws instead of the small, folding, thin plate Japanese type saws my preferences might be different too.

Like you, if I want to make a longer cut I will provably whip out a small panel saw anyway. I have been bidding on low to middle priced auction saws which I will not feel bad about experimenting with. I need the practice sharpening anyway. Many on these pages like the bigger 26-28" hand saws but so far I am liking the 20-24" thinner plate panel saws better. I am eager to see how a nice sharp 7-9 ppi panel saw will compare to those big boys. Yes this thing goes on & on & on....and I am trying to make Chris crazy ;-)

Now I have to go work on framing a 38 x 11' floor, instead of messing with my saws ;-( When this room is done I swear I am taking a break from construction and working with real wood!

[Chris Griggs]

Meh, I was already a bit crazy anyway, so no harm done. I definitely use pressure with my hand saws, partially because its rougher cutting and partially because gravity isn't above the saw the same way it is when I use a backsaw.

Regarding the panel saws. A while back Archie sold me a FANTASTIC old 20" 9ppi Atkins for less than a song. I filed it with 15 rake and 25 fleam. It is phenomenal! My dirty little secret is that at the moment I have ZERO xcut backsaws, since I sold my LN to make way for my wenzloff kits. Guess what's been getting used at the bench hook and for joinery xcuts instead and works just about as well.... the 20" atkins. I must admit it's really made me question the need for backsaws (though not the desire). It's also made me wonder if the half-back on half-back saws is unessessary; it seems to me that a 16"-20" panel saw with a not too thick plate and a good filing job is plenty stiff enough for a lot of bench work. Never used a half-back though so I can't personally atest to the actual level or lack of benefit. Just some random thoughts...

[Mike Holbrook]

Dang I should have known you would kick it up a notch!

I just received an Atkins 22", 8 ppi that I am working on. It cuts nice as it was, now that someone has given me an idea for a filing pattern...ZERO XCUTs!!!! OMG! I think you make a good point on the half back. I saw one at auction the other day that went for crazy money. It had a small crack in the plate, guess where? Yeepers just in front of the back. My guess is the crack would not have happened were it not for the back. So in the spirit of kicking it up a notch, I am wondering if the Half-Back is an sset or a liability? I don't think I would buy or make another.

I guess I am going to have to start buying 16" saws and cutting 2" off to catch up to you, grrrr! Actually I still have the need to cut more construction grade lumber than I think Chris does, so maybe I can justify a little longer saw and not loose too much face with the less is more crowd.

[Chris Griggs]

Well the panel saw is filed very xcut, I'm just w/o xcut backsaws until my kits come. FWIW I also keep a 26" xcut hand saw on hand and have 2 26" d8s and and a d7 all filed rip with different amounts of rake. And I have no intent of abandoning xcut backsaws for the long hall. I would like to experiment with something like a 18", .032 panel saw though - could be handy at the bench when a carcass or sash saw just isn't quite enough. Again the 20" does this job, but because my bench is 20" deep and against the wall, 2 less inches would be superb. I guess it would essentially be a half-back saw w/o the back....

For the 22" try 25 degrees of fleam - its not necessary in hardwood, but I have found that it does make the saw feel nicer when cutting then say a 20 degrees of fleam, its only a slight, subjective difference and supposedly it will dull faster, but I've liked the extra fleam in that saw.

[David Keller NC]

Does anyone have this saw? I read Schwarz's rave review.

I have a Gramercy 14" Sash saw that I have posted about before. I believe my Sash saw uses the same .20 plate and it has a combo tooth pattern. I am constantly amazed at how that little beast flies through wood. I swear it cuts better and faster than larger saws with much larger teeth. I am wondering if the LN saw cuts as fast?

I don't have a Grammercy saw so I can't quite answer your question. I do have the L-N 16" tenon saw, and as other posters have noted, it's an extremely fast, efficient saw in a rip cut. I've never noticed any stickiness in the cut that one might expect from a heat warping issue. What I can compare it to is a 14" cocobolo-handled L-N saw that I purchased as a pair (one rip, one cross-cut) a few years ago. These saws have a 0.032 inch plate (I think), and while extremely sharp, they feel very slow compared to the 16" thin-plate saw.

That said, I can easily see one of these saws getting kinked by an inexperienced user.

[Jim Neeley]

Does anyone have the 16" L-N tenon and either the L-N Carcass Rip or crosscut? I picked up the pair of carcass saws in cocobolo about a year ago but rarely use them because the distance between the horns is too small for my very wide hand. It works, but quickly gives me a blister. :-(

If you own both, woulf you hold them up together and let me know if the horns are further apart? I've got Rob Cosman dovetail and tenon (mid-sized) saws but am eyeing the 16" but don't want one if it's going to pinch my hand like the carcass saws do.

Maybe that's one reason I keep finding myself drooling over your site, Klaus and Pedder: totes sized based on the users hands.. That's my story and I'm standing by it!! <g>

Well, that and saws that are beautiful beyond belief!!!

[Jim Koepke]

I picked up the pair of carcass saws in cocobolo about a year ago but rarely use them because the distance between the horns is too small for my very wide hand. It works, but quickly gives me a blister. :-(

Is there enough wood to modify the horns to make more room?

I have done handle modifications on a lot of planes and saws for more comfort.

jtk

[Jim Neeley]

Good question, Jim. I've downloaded a picture of the saw from L-N's web site (attached). The RC saw has about another half-inch between the horns and is perfect for me. I can't see getting that from this tote without cutting off the horns completely and they help keep the saw aligned for straight cuts. :-/

For perspective, this saw has a 2-1/4" max cutting depth.

[Mike Holbrook]

Highland Woodworking has a sale/hand tool demo going on. The guys at the Lie-Nielsen demo had, guess what, yes a 16", thin plate, backsaw. So I got to try it out. Since it was a demo and I don't think it was very sharp but it did cut nice. My 14" Gramercy Sash saw still cuts better for me, but then it is freshly sharpened with the Gramercy combo teeth. The 16" .20 blade did seem to flex a little when I was trying to start cuts, as does my Sash saw to a lesser extent. I think the flexing at start up can make these saws a little harder to get started, especially if the user does not remember to go very light with the pressure. Highland Woodworking does not carry the 16" saw so I did not have the temptation to take one home. The experience has me still not entirely sure why my Gramercy Sash saw seems to cut so fast for me. My best guess is someone at Gramercy is very good at sharpening.

[David Keller NC]

Good question, Jim. I've downloaded a picture of the saw from L-N's web site (attached). The RC saw has about another half-inch between the horns and is perfect for me. I can't see getting that from this tote without cutting off the horns completely and they help keep the saw aligned for straight cuts. :-/

For perspective, this saw has a 2-1/4" max cutting depth.

Wow - You must have a seriously big mitt if you can't fit a 3-fingered grip between the horns of a L-N. While I'm almost precisely average in height/weight, I actually find that the L-N saw's totes are a bit big to be ideal for me.

Have you considered making your own? After all, all you need is a scrap of cherry/maple/walnut/exotic, a fret or coping saw (or a powered jig saw, bandsaw or fretsaw), a couple of drill bits, and a rasp - you already have the split nuts!