Whetstone vs waterstone?

[Matthew N. Masail]

in the thread about waterstone grit there was a recommendation for this stone http://www.metalmaster-ww.com/product/46 I was wondering what is the difference between a stone like this and a sigma 13000?
what classifies a stone as whet or water?

[Chris Vandiver]

They both are waterstones.
"Whet" is another term for "hone" and is not an exclusive term to waterstones. It is also used to describe the use of other sharpening media. It is actually a verb.

whet

   /ʰwɛt, wɛt/ http://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/help/luna/IPA_pron_key.html) Show Spelled [hwet, wet] http://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/help/luna/Spell_pron_key.html) Show IPA verb, whet·ted, whet·ting, noun
verb (used with object) 1. to sharpen (a knife, tool, etc.) by grinding or friction.

2. to make keen or eager; stimulate: to whet the appetite; to whet the curiosity.


Whetstones used to be a common term for oilstones.

[Stuart Tierney]

What Chris said, without reservation.

I usually write 'whetstone' on documentation, because it's easier and faster to write than waterstone, and the boxes usually say 'whetstone' on them.


As for the difference between the stone in the link and a #13000 Sigma Power?

I've not used the one in the link, but watching the video I've picked up a few details.

It will polish, and seems to do it quite well. You cannot tell how well something polishes from a single angle however, as an edge that looks polished in one direction might be full of scratches in another. That stone seems to hold onto it's grit very well, so I'd suggest that being a "#10000 grit stone", that's exactly what you're getting and nothing else. That polish is a #10000 polish, and it seems to take a little while to get there. It was good to see the stone was well behaved even with so much water on it, and there were no real issues in use that I could see. Looks like a decent stone, but a simple video and moderately sketchy description can only tell so much. I would have liked to have seem a nice, big plane blade instead of a small plane blade being used on it, as a stone that's well behaved with small blades can be a right PITA with wider blades. We also don't know how much pressure was on the blade (seems like a light touch) or what condition the blade was before it went on the stone.

So, even with a video, I still have a lot of questions about it. But it obviously works and that's a good thing.

The Sigma #13000?

Better off asking other folks about that.

Maybe the key point here is that the #10000 linked to seems to be a one trick pony and for want of a better description is very much like glorified scary sharp, whereas the Sigma #13000 is very adjustable if you want it to be, and it's easy to unlock that additional performance if you want to, but it'll "just sharpen" if that's what you want as well.

No single stone will work for everyone, but there's almost enough difference in stones out there to find one that will work for anyone.

(Well, some stones are just troublesome and nothing more. Although, for all their difficulty, they still do work most of the time!)

Stu.

[David Weaver]

Maybe the key point here is that the #10000 linked to seems to be a one trick pony and for want of a better description is very much like glorified scary sharp, whereas the Sigma #13000 is very adjustable if you want it to be, and it's easy to unlock that additional performance if you want to, but it'll "just sharpen" if that's what you want as well.


huh?

If it's a resin bound stone like it says and somewhere just north of a micron, it should be a very useful stone for woodworking. Who knows what it is, but if it's hard and is at the grit rating that it says it's at, there isn't a lot around that can compete for that price shipped. The only full size stone over here at that grit level and that size is the kitayama, and while it has its merits (for people wanting a "complex" edge), for straightforward making things sharp, it's a bit pedestrian.

Resin bound stones are no more or no less one trick than anything else. They are sort of the ozuku or shoubu asagi of the artificial stone world. Working stones to see what they can do is always about water control, slurry control, and what they'll do when the surface dries a little, or what they'll release on straight water with no intention of making a slurry (the last being not so exciting with artificial stones as it is with natural stones).

[David Weaver]

in the thread about waterstone grit there was a recommendation for this stone http://www.metalmaster-ww.com/product/46 I was wondering what is the difference between a stone like this and a sigma 13000?
what classifies a stone as whet or water?

Sort of a recommendation with reservation. Not for the seller, I've made several orders from him, and he is a legitimate guy. But that I haven't actually tried that stone.

It's awfully hard to beat takeshi's prices, and my experience with other private label stones has been good. He is a stand up dealer, though it sometimes takes him a week or so to ship, and figure SAL from there (which can be another week or two, sometimes more sometimes less).

[David Weaver]

So, after arguing with stu about stones above (what else is new), I ordered this stone a couple of weeks later, and just got it last night.

So far, I think it is what it says it is. It's definitely not as fine as the cho 10k (which is hard to figure out without a microscope, maybe it is as fine as the cho, but a different binder), and not as fine as a clean shapton 15k, and definitely not as fine as stus 13k. You can, of course, do the trick with it where you let it get dry and then it will get up to that level of polish, but that does take more time than just using a stone that fine to begin with.

We are talking about hair splitting fineness, though. Any of these stones will finish plane a shiny surface, as will this new generic stone.

What I can't tell about it is how the feel will be. I haven't lapped it yet, and so far it's pretty sticky. I'm hoping some of that sticky goes away and it gets slicker, but it may be that the stones are really proportional in use to their costs:
(currently, what I know of them):

- This one is $75. I'd say it's a toss up between it and the kitayama stone. If the feel doesn't change, it's not as nice as the shapton and sigma power (and I think most people new to the game will prefer the softer feeling sigma power stone, i think the fineness comes easiest with it).
- the shapton 15k is about $115
- the SP 13k (which despite the number is slightly finer than the shapton 15k pro and 16k GS) is, I think about $130 at current exchange

The stars are still aligned, you get what you pay for.

(there's no great reason for me to discuss the cho price, it is not in line in regard to performance with the rest of them, despite the fact that it is a heavenly stone to use when it's had 15 minutes in water and is perhaps the best stone)

normal disclaimer - if you can't do something with one of the above stones, you won't be able to do anything with any of them. it's the indian and not the arrow when all of the arrows are straight.

[Chris Griggs]

So, after arguing with stu about stones above (what else is new), I ordered this stone a couple of weeks later, and just got it last night.


You're hilarious Dave, just couldn't resist. So when are you going to break down and buy one of those Bamboo stones from CKTG? Archie hasn't done it yet - he's more curious about the snow white,which he keeps trying to get me to buy. I must admit, I've been tempted to get it to use as part of a 2-stone 1k-8k setup, but so far my inability to justify the expense has won out. LOL!

[David Weaver]

I think i'm going to stop now. I've thought that a lot of times.

But my wife gets a little more irritated with each one that comes in, and she sees them all :)

(I heard the snow white is like a poor man's chosera 10k, but you have a SP 13k, right? Or is it a 10K? The only way up from the 13k is a 30k glasstone, and it's not a big step up. It might be an interesting stone, but I came to the same conclusion as you - my curiosity doesn't amount to much there given I already have a 10k chosera that doesn't see much other than the inside of a drawer).

And btw, I still have a soft spot for the 15k shapton because of the amount of carbon steel and A2 that I use (and not much more complex than that), and it eats those two when it's clean. I might like it if it was a little harder, like maybe twice as hard. Or three times.

[Chris Griggs]

I had a Sigma 10k "Tomago-iro" (translated "egg colored", I believe), but it was one of Stu's "back-catalogue" stones different than the 10k listed on his site. I believe it was the predecessor of the current 13k. Nice stone, very nice actually, silky soft and nice mud(stu says its technically a knife stone), but not crazy soft, stayed pretty flat, fast cutting for its grit, and quite inexpensive.

I liked it very much but found myself rarely going past my 6k. The 6k just is so good that even though the 10k did get things sharper, it wasn't dramatic enough for me to use it all that often so I sold it to Archie (who LOVES it) and put the money towards some Wenzloff saw parts. Also the more comfortable I got with freehand honing the more I found myself preferring the quite hard 6k (where-as I had initialy preferred softer stones). I have been planning on picking up a 13k one of these days, just to be able to get that extreme edge when I need it. However, lately I've also been thinking about 8k stones again to have something just a bit finer than the s6k that can still jump from 1k with ease (hence my interest in the supposedly hard Cho-like snow-white). Thinking about it now, going from the 1k straight to the 10k I sold probably would have worked just fine, but again, when I replace it I want something harder anyway. Anyway, I'm on a buying hiatus at the moment until after more aspects of my big move are figured out - even managed not to spend a penny of the biggest tax return I've ever gotten on anything woodworking - now that took some serious self control! We'll see how long I last... Must resist buying plane building materials.... :)

[David Weaver]

I go straight from 8k to whatever I use.

Any of the above named polishing stones. I might flip up the chisel just a tiny bit (like a degree or two) after it's been honed a few times, but not so much that it isn't easy to work a wire edge up on the 1k stone.

[Archie England]

I think i'm going to stop now. I've thought that a lot of times.

But my wife gets a little more irritated with each one that comes in, and she sees them all :)

(I heard the snow white is like a poor man's chosera 10k, but you have a SP 13k, right? Or is it a 10K? The only way up from the 13k is a 30k glasstone, and it's not a big step up. It might be an interesting stone, but I came to the same conclusion as you - my curiosity doesn't amount to much there given I already have a 10k chosera that doesn't see much other than the inside of a drawer).

And btw, I still have a soft spot for the 15k shapton because of the amount of carbon steel and A2 that I use (and not much more complex than that), and it eats those two when it's clean. I might like it if it was a little harder, like maybe twice as hard. Or three times.

Hello David,

It's only right for me to offer to liberate your Chosera 10k stone, too. PM me either way.

And, I've bought and tried the 6000 Magnesia stone you recommended. First, congrats on enlightening us about a quality 6k stone, which has Chosera-like qualities. The stone indeed handles just like a Cho 1k or 3k (these I have). However, it's actually much muddier than a Chosera (actually a very piggy stone to clean up) and is nearly as soft as a 5k Suehiro Rika--just a tad firmer. All things considered, its quite a responsive stone that shares many traits of the more expensive Chosera line. I prefer the Sigma 6k over this stone because it's faster, firmer, and way less mess to clean up. Now, in contrast to Chris' old Tomago-iro 10k, both the 6k magnesia and the 10k old stock Sigma power are both about the same firmness. The Sigma, however, needs much water before use--and prefers staying that way. Stiction can develop without frequent water addition. Both stones make better slurry than the typical Sigma Power stones, but the 6k Magnesia is terribly filthy to manage. Both produce quality edges; but, the Sigma 10k flat out polishes and hones more sharply than the 6k. I tried drying the stone a bit and and then spritzing a tad of water by which work out a higher polish with the 6k--but something about my technique didn't work. That's okay; I'll try again once I get through these next few busy weeks of work.

In conclusion, if someone were looking for a med-high stone, the $40 magnesia 6k is fine stone that works well for it's cheap price.

Thanks for your constant information about ways we can save money...while spending it :)

I passed "Hopeless Junction" a while back when it comes to curiosity about sharpening. Stu, David, Chris, and Orlando have been great help (aka, pushers) in this journey for sharpness.

Eventually, I'll get back to the wood.

Archie

[David Weaver]

i'm waiting for archie, btw, to go for the nubatama stones. i saw a conversation somewhere that they're a rebranded version of something else and i can't remember what that was.plus, stu wasn't that excited about them, and i don't really use a coarse stone, anyway.

[Chris Griggs]

Stu, David, Chris, and Orlando have been great help (aka, pushers) in this journey for sharpness.



I've been more of a restrainer than pusher I think.... you haven't exactly required that much pushing (that is unless its a stone that I want to try out... cough cough, snow white!)


Eventually, I'll get back to the wood.


You better get a move on that baby cradle, grandpa.... Last time I checked pregnancies still only last about 9 months:D

[Chris Griggs]

i'm waiting for archie, btw, to go for the nubatama stones. i saw a conversation somewhere that they're a rebranded version of something else and i can't remember what that was.plus, stu wasn't that excited about them, and i don't really use a coarse stone, anyway.

They're selling a bunch of fine (up to 10k) nubatama's now too. They have videos demoing much of the line - IIRC the 8k and 10k seem like nice hard stones, but I can't tell much from the videos.

[David Weaver]

Hello David,

It's only right for me to offer to liberate your Chosera 10k stone, too. PM me either way.

And, I've bought and tried the 6000 Magnesia stone you recommended. First, congrats on enlightening us about a quality 6k stone, which has Chosera-like qualities. The stone indeed handles just like a Cho 1k or 3k (these I have). However, it's actually much muddier than a Chosera (actually a very piggy stone to clean up) and is nearly as soft as a 5k Suehiro Rika--just a tad firmer. All things considered, its quite a responsive stone that shares many traits of the more expensive Chosera line. I prefer the Sigma 6k over this stone because it's faster, firmer, and way less mess to clean up. Now, in contrast to Chris' old Tomago-iro 10k, both the 6k magnesia and the 10k old stock Sigma power are both about the same firmness. The Sigma, however, needs much water before use--and prefers staying that way. Stiction can develop without frequent water addition. Both stones make better slurry than the typical Sigma Power stones, but the 6k Magnesia is terribly filthy to manage. Both produce quality edges; but, the Sigma 10k flat out polishes and hones more sharply than the 6k. I tried drying the stone a bit and and then spritzing a tad of water by which work out a higher polish with the 6k--but something about my technique didn't work. That's okay; I'll try again once I get through these next few busy weeks of work.

In conclusion, if someone were looking for a med-high stone, the $40 magnesia 6k is fine stone that works well for it's cheap price.

Thanks for your constant information about ways we can save money...while spending it :)

I passed "Hopeless Junction" a while back when it comes to curiosity about sharpening. Stu, David, Chris, and Orlando have been great help (aka, pushers) in this journey for sharpness.

Eventually, I'll get back to the wood.

Archie

I've done OK with the 6k stone so far in terms of mud (not nearly so much as the rika), but I always start with less water. There is no option to do that with the rika. Spritz a little on the surface and it disappears. Soak it and the whole thing is like permeable. The 6k magnesia is much closer to the cho 10k in feel than is the cho 3k (which is a pretty hard and stiff feeling stone). The cho 10k has that slick feel that the magnesia does.

I'm keeping the chosera on the assumption that I might use it for HSS sometime (it's been since I got it that I used a stone to sharpen HSS). At least that's my story right now. I have no real reason to keep more than one finishing stone.

The trick with the 6k, which also works with the resin metalmaster stone (and with the 13k) is to work the edge to complete wet, then dry it out and work it only dry without reintroducing water. You effectively plug the stone on purpose to make it imitate a finer stone. You've got stones fine enough that you don't really need to perfect it.

[David Weaver]

I can't find anything about the maker of the nubatama stones, and the reviews seem to be pretty good for them.

Maybe my assumption above was incorrect. Still not something I'm going to try.

[Stuart Tierney]

I can't find anything about the maker of the nubatama stones, and the reviews seem to be pretty good for them.

Maybe my assumption above was incorrect. Still not something I'm going to try.

Dave,

There are several reasons why I remain unconvinced that these stones are anything but over hyped, mediocre stones.

Professional courtesy prevents me from saying explicitly why I'm not impressed.

(And the reviews are unreliable.)


Stu.

(Playing with a new stone at the moment.)

[David Weaver]

OK, so I jumped the gun about the metalmaster stone. I lapped it tonight and removed the skin, and it's a very mellow stone for a resin stone. It's like a 10,000 grit bester, maybe a bit softer and without the "clank" feel that, say, a bester 1200 has (where it has a hollow and gritty sound, this stone has neither of those).

It is similar in density to the SP, less dense than the shapton (no surprise, the shapton is the most non-porous thing you'll find shot of a very fine ozuku or welsh slate).

It is a nicer stone to use than the kityama stone, not quite as fast cutting but finer and more consistent.

It is, i believe, not quite as fine as the shapton and chosera and not as fine as the SP 13k, but it gets to HHT-3 pretty easily with the dry stone trick.

[David Weaver]

Chris, you pointed me to that nubatama 10,000 video (or the nubatama videos online in general).

I believe that the nubatama 10,000 bamboo stone and the 10,000 stone from metalmaster are identical stones. I don't have a nubatama stone to prove it, but just watching the video.

The finish of the stone is identical, the swarf on the stone is identical, the color is identical, and even the box that the metalmaster 10k comes in (the weird snakeskin looking box) is identical, right down to the brown and orangish yellow color combination.

Stu knows who makes those stones, it sounds like, and won't tell. That's OK.

It's not as hard as the guy describes it to be, either. They are not soft stones compared to some, but you can tell just by looking at the swarf that it has stone particles mixed in (the swarf is a dark gray as opposed to the pitch black that appears on a shapton pro - miles easier to lap, too), something you wouldn't see in a very hard stone (i also gouged mine a bit tonight playing with it (or testing it) the same way I would do a shapton, which is honing like you would with an oilstone. A shapton wouldn't even blink at that treatment).

Of course, takeshi sells the stone for $75, and a 5 spot for shipping.

[David Weaver]

in the thread about waterstone grit there was a recommendation for this stone http://www.metalmaster-ww.com/product/46 I was wondering what is the difference between a stone like this and a sigma 13000?
what classifies a stone as whet or water?

Well, I can finally answer this. It is similar in hardness to the SP 13k, similar in denseness, not too far different in feel and a bit less fine. You pay a bit more for the fineness in a sp13k, but that stone is a very fine stone that in my experience is only topped by a 30k shapton (and the shapton is a serious waste of money for woodworking, that fineness can be gotten elsewhere very cheaply).

Because, like the SP 13k, it's not super hard, it will release a little and can be made pretty easily to release some mud to have a slurry and leave no evidence of the sharpening stroke direction if you want. If you keep the water to it, it will also polish, and if you let it dry out, it will polish brighter (all stones will do the latter two).

[David Weaver]

And to be clear, archie, you have no reason to try the stone, even if it is pretty cheap :)

[Chris Griggs]

Interesting, makes me wonder if the bamboos and your stone are made by bester/imanishi (those are the same company right)

So here's something I'm curious about. See if you can decode this statement from the CKTG description of the Bamboo 8k

"The stone is harder than a Chocera stone, almost like the 8k Snow white."

I know you don't have the snow white, but how would you compare the hardness of your stone to the cho 10. I was under the impression that the cho 10k was very hard, but that statement leads me to believe that it isn't exceptionally so, and that the snow white is mega hard.

[David Weaver]

The chosera (i haven't used it in a month or so now) is similar hardness, I don't believe that it is harder than a chosera 10k, which makes a blacker swarf (and cuts faster). I heard the 5k hasn't impressed as much, though, so maybe it's softer. The 3k is bull hard (as my grandfather would say).

The shapton pro is miles harder than this stone, and harder than the chosera by a good bit. Things that will gouge most other stones won't touch a shapton pro. I don't mean a horrid big gouge, but just a little nick in the surface to remind you that you can't do something a certain way - things only a freehander in a hurry might do.

I haven't used bester/imanishi stones above 1200, so I couldn't say exactly. the two companies that I've seen that make stones this size that look like this and have this density are sigma power and bester imanishi (guessing from the 1200). There are others, but I don't know if they are just relabels aimed at knife people.

Did I say i'm partial to hard stones yet 60 times? They could triple the hardness of the shapton pro and I'd only like it better.