Waterstone grits

[Jim Foster]

I use 800, 1200 and 6000 grit king stones. In looking at the micron sizes for these, it seems like 1200, 4000 and 8000 may be a better path to a sharp edge that will last a little longer than the current sharpening schedule I'm using. I'm just sharpening regular items like plane blades, chisels and an occasional kitchen knife. I can get something pretty sharp now, but 1200 to 6000 seems like a bit of a jump and maybe 8000 will get a better polish. I'm working in mostly oak and if that changes (hopefully) I'd probably be doing several projects in walnut.

Any thoughts?

[Archie England]

Your king stones will work, but they represent "old" technology--hence, are slower, dish faster, wear out quicker, tend to need more water, etc. The newer ceramic stones (from older tech [shapton pro] to newer [Sigma, Chosera, or Gesshin], plus all those in between [Bester, Super Stones, etc]) will cut faster, dish less, endure longer, tend to use less water, and, reflect actual grit better.

For me, I've found a step between 1000/1200 to 6000 to be a great benefit. Coming off my 3k or 4k stone, my Sigma power ceramic 6000 works super quickly and produces a fantastically, super sharp and durable edge. Without the intermediate step, it takes me longer to achieve a sharp edge and IMO the edge is not as good (but it is sharp). My Sigma 6k is easily equal to most 8000/10000 stones in its ability to polish and hone. This stone just keeps cutting--and it's faster when it gets a better preppred blade.

To get the most from your current stones before investing in others, pick up a quality diamond flattening stone. I have the iWood 300 and its fantastic from my King 300 to my Sigma 13000. Others have praised the Atoma 400; and there's always a coarse DMT--but having used one, it doesn't hold up as well as the iWood. Soak first, then flatten frequently. This alone should speed up the cutting ability of your Kings. When you're ready to replace your used up stones, there are several older threads here that will provide good insights into the various options.

Bottom line--they all work! You're buying preferences mostly, along with some genuinely distinctive advantages.

Best of luck,

Archie

[Terry Beadle]

The 800 is a good starting point. A 1200 is a bit too fine for rough shaping. A 400 is an even better starting point for blades with chip or angle issues.

The newer stones in the 6000 grit are supposed to be much faster than the earlier tech Kings. I use a 8000 king and a 10000 Ice Bear. I don't use the Ice Bear as much as I did when I first got it because the 8000 king is really quite good. Unless you hit some thing that turns an edge or makes a chip, you can keep a 8000 king edge in tune with some stropping of green rouge on a hone. Many times. And even then, back to the 8000 for a quick tune up and back in the shaving action.

I do recommend a higher grit stone than the 8000 especially for paring chisels and the harder steels. I can only imagine how good the new high grit ceramic stone may be as they are priced awfully high. I've even tried diamond paste but I don't find it all that much better than using the green rouge hone-ing board. Let's face it, the 1/2 micron green rouge is a real bargain and the more you use it the better the results...IMO.

As for the jump between 1200 and 6000 or even 8000, I use a natural blue Aoto stone ( http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=04%2E002&dept_id=13118 ) that sets up the blade for polishing. It works really well in general. There's a bit of leaning that you have to go through for each particular stone. Mine has finer grit on the right half than it does on the left half. So I start left and finish right. It's rated as a mix of 2000 to 3000 grit but I think the right side may be more towards the 4000 grit rating. Mother Nature is always surprising to the learning process...that's why it's called learning...hoot!

I would recommend you get a new tech stone in the 3000 to 4000 grit area. Send Stu a email, explain your stone sequence and he'll give you great advice...worth more than the stone in most cases as 'learning' can be expensive.

Enjoy the process and good luck. Keep us posted.

[David Weaver]

I use 800, 1200 and 6000 grit king stones. In looking at the micron sizes for these, it seems like 1200, 4000 and 8000 may be a better path to a sharp edge that will last a little longer than the current sharpening schedule I'm using. I'm just sharpening regular items like plane blades, chisels and an occasional kitchen knife. I can get something pretty sharp now, but 1200 to 6000 seems like a bit of a jump and maybe 8000 will get a better polish. I'm working in mostly oak and if that changes (hopefully) I'd probably be doing several projects in walnut.

Any thoughts?

The 1200 to 6000 jump is not a problem unless you're trying to use a stone meant for honing to work a large expanse of hardened steel.

What do you use to grind and what's your sharpening style? (microbevel with a jig, hollow grind, flat bevel with a freehand microbevel?)

The king 6000 was my first fine stone, it's OK, but it's not a world beater.

That said, were I in your position, if I wanted to add something relatively cheap but finer, i'd be inclined to give the resin stone that takeshi kuroda makes a shot.

I don't see anything anywhere comparable in price and finish. It'd run you about $80.

http://www.metalmaster-ww.com/

http://www.metalmaster-ww.com/product/46

(this is a resin stone, like a shapton, but it's bigger and costs half as much. I'd be hardly surprised if it was every bit as good. I have ordered from this guy before and what he sells is what he says it is. His prices with shipping ($5 to ship from japan!) are pretty tough to beat).

The other thing you could do is just get the green stuff that LV sells in a crayon (or woodcraft or rockler, it's everywhere "microfine compound") and use it on MDF with a little bit of oil, or try autosol polish (which will create a very sharp edge, but the stuff in the paste that's intended to protect metal leaves a film that's a bit undesirable).

Give us an idea of what you're looking to do, if you're looking to get results without spending too much, if you want to dabble in some of the best at a moderately higher price, etc.

No matter what your stones are, you can always change how you're grinding to minimize the amount of work your stones do and do more with less. You can also learn to make your 6000 stone behave like a finer stone by controlling water while using it and continuing to work whatever iron you're using as the stone becomes dry and burnished (we're not talking about a matter of minutes, here, maybe an extra 15 seconds of work on the edge and 15 seconds on the back).

A strop is probably in order with a 6k grit stone, too. Any piece of leather, cork, felt or linen to work the 6k stone wire edge back and forth and break it off.

[Jim Foster]

Several additional data points;

1) I think the 800 and 1200 Kings cut pretty fast and are easy to keep flat.
2) I'm not quite sure, but I think getting the scratches left by the 1200 takes too long to remove with the 6000, and I'm curious if these scratches I don't remove shorten working time on a blade hone significantly. See pic's of a blade I recently sharpened, used a little, but I ran it across the 800, 1200 and 6000 for about the same time on each stone.
3) As a novice, I've been pleasantly surprised that I can get a plane blade sharp enough to get .001 shaving on my smoother (#4) without it being total luck, it still takes me more fiddling than I would like and I still need practice, but it's more than enough of a small success to keep fueling my excitement to do more with my hands.

Note: This blade looks nicely polished to my 49 year old eyes in my pretty well lit shop space, but in the pictures it looks a little rough still

221714221713

[David Weaver]

Well, you can do two things to decrease the time on the 6000 stone.

* if the bevel is wide enough, side sharpen (i see your 1200 scratches are on the diagonal - there should be something on side sharpening here, just basically you'd run the iron up and down the stone making scratches parallel to the edge, it makes it easy to have a geometrically clean edge that's quick to work with the finish stone any way you'd like)

* do what you're doing with the 1200 stone, then reference the bevel on the finish stone, and lift the iron about two degrees and then pull strokes on the 6k stone so that you're only working the very edge. That little steeper bit will be honed to very quickly with the 800 stone the next time you hone.

Otherwise, there's no shame in working the edge on the finish stone for a while until you get what you want.

The bevels you show look good whatever stone they're on (1200?). The scratches run all the way to the edge and the edge looks uniform. make sure the other side of the bevel looks as good with the polish stone.

Your #3 is good, you're right, it's not rocket science. Experience will breed speed, both in grinding and honing, as well as setting the plane up once you're done with the iron.

The kings are just fine for woodworking. I used kings for a long time before curiosity got the best of me and I exploded into the purchase of scads of stones.

Of all of the stones that I've gotten (and I've gotten a lot), I probably only have one stone that will make a better edge than a king 6k followed up by green 0.5 micron honing stuff on MDF (for the few times you need an edge better than 6k). And no sane person would use that stone on woodworking tools - I wouldn't.

If you get almost all of the 1200 scratches removed, there's likely little difference in edge durability, but you can modify technique a little so that whatever your final stone is, you get uniform very fine scratches from that stone on both sides of the bevel.

You can go different directions from where you are now that will maybe make sharpening a little easier, but stones that cut faster than kings on O1 and A2 don't generally yield a practical gain for woodworking, not nearly so much as experience and good use of the grinder. I know the surfaces I get now look little or no different than they did 5 years ago when I was using kings.

One side comment, I might be inclined in your position to be spending most of the time on the two endpoints (the 800 and the 6000. The 1200 should be a quick step, and the 6000 may end up being quick, too. The 800 stone is setting up everything for the following stones.)

[Tri Hoang]

I'd say keep your stone set up and add a hand strop if you don't already use it. I doubt that 1/4/8 set up would be a much better improvement. The sharpest, most durable chisel edge I got was on a power strop..however, it's a little tricky to get it right without rounding over the edge or creating an unintentional back bevel. I don't have enough courage/experience to power strop a plane blade (yet!)

[Sean Richards]

I use the 300, 1200 and 6000 king waterstones. I won't be replacing them until they are worn out - they do the job just fine. I don't feel a great need for any additional grits either.

[Archie England]

I use the 300, 1200 and 6000 king waterstones. I won't be replacing them until they are worn out - they do the job just fine. I don't feel a great need for any additional grits either.

Sean, have you used any other waterstones?

When I did, that became the deciding factor to buy better stones. Until I experienced how much faster and better an Arashiyama 1k was than my Norton 1k, I wasn't putting another dollar into stones. So, I researched Stu's blog, Tools from Japan blog http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/wordpress/ how about a dozen stones compared. Poor Stu had to work so hard to "assist" me in finding what fit my preferences. In the end, I spent twice more than I had saved and alloted but, wow, what fantastic results. From that meager but excellent start (Sigma 120; Sigma power 1-6-13k; plus an iWood diamond hone), I've added more steps from the 120 to the 1000 and another step from the 1-6 and plan to add the 8k between the 6-13k, as well.

I agree (note my first post) that what you have works! That's not the final word though--it just works slower, dishes faster, uses up more quickly, doesn't cut as many types of steel as quickly, doesn't have as firm of a tactile response....well, that's my opinion anyway.... But it works.

Just know that once you do use up you stones (and you may not be rehabbing dozens of blades and backs like me) there's a whole new breed of racing stones to compete for your money. And it's a shame that the Choseras are so expensive--but less than the Gesshins, because they are fantastic stones to use. The Sigma powers cost less (on some stones almost half) but yield better results (Sigma power 400>Cho 400; Sigma 6000>Cho 5000; and Sigma 13000>Cho 10000) or nearly similar results (Cho 1000>Sigma 1000 on bevels; on backs Sig 1000>Cho 1000). And there are Besters, Aryashiyamas, Gesshins, Shaptons, and a host of others of which I have no knowledge; but they really do yield better results with less time and greater feel, unless you buy hard stones (Besters or Shaptons) that are less responsive in feel. So there you have it. I'm not a purist or loyalist in the stones I use; but I certainly have preferences. The reason I have no desire (any longer) to buy a Chosera 5k and 10k is because I've got superior stones (Sigma 6k and 13k) that yield better results, are easier to use, have fewer finicky restrictions (soak times and delicate nature). I could easily have been happy with Shapton Pros until I used my Suehiro Rika 5k, which is softer and muddier. Once I had used a super polishing stone that was "fun" to work, I really pulled back from those stones that are "more-like" concrete.

Take care and have fun.... I simply have less money for buying new saw kits and other such things because I've been busy playing with waterstones. At least Stu and David Weaver will understand :). Hope my ramblings aren't taken as a challenge; they're not so intended. My journey for sharpness is merely that--my experiences. If this helps--good; if not--it's cost you nothing but a few moments.

Archie

[David Weaver]

I go back and forth on this.

I like stones a lot, so I've bought a lot of stones. They're like toys.

But some razor sharpening stuff has turned some of my thoughts on their heads a little (in terms of what someone really needs to have). One of the things you get toward when you're sharpening razors isn't whether or not a razor will cut hair, but whether or not it will do it so cleanly that there is no pull against the grain, and such that there is no irritation left on your skin.

You don't always have the option of having a finer and finer stone to do that (natural stones that are truly that fine cost real money). So you learn the stone and start to experiment to make it do more than it's label says. You moderate water (more or less, depending on what a stone releases). If you have a stone that releases swarf no matter what, then you have no choice but to let it dry, which isn't really a problem as long as you can unload it. If you have a stone that will hold onto its grit (like a hard natural stone), then it's preferable probably to run it on clear water after you've got the edge near where you want it.

This goes back to what Joel was reiterating about spending time on a finish stone (which doesn't necessarily equate to a lot of time in a sharpening session, but spending time to learn the stone).

One of my super dandy little stones is the 6k stone that fujibato sells for $39 shipped over here (that he calls "magnesia 6000" and labels it as private brand or private label or something). It feels like a chosera, and it cuts fast. The only thing I wished was that it would be finer, because it's clearly a 6k stone. So last night, I applied what i've done with razors to that stone, and polished the back and bevel of a chisel (which would be plenty sharp for nearly anything). And then I wiped the surface of the stone dry, and lapped the back of the chisel on the surface of the stone for about 20 seconds and the bevel for about 10. We're not talking about eons here.

How sharp was the result? Every bit as sharp as the SP 13k, Shapton 15k and chosera 10k would get on clear water. How do I know? The edge passed HHT-3 all along it - on a chisel with a 30 degree bevel. That is not a minor feat given that razors are generally around half that in their total bevel angle. And in the shave test, it wasn't just a removal of hair on the arm, it was the silent effortless lay over of the hair on the arm, cleanly and with no irritation.

All of that with a $39 stone, and really in little more time than I would've spent otherwise with my "expensive" stones that are at least twice as fine in nominal grit size.

That method is only good if with a squirt of water, the stone surface will clear itself with the next chisel. Otherwise, all you have is a loaded stone that is a nuisance to refresh because you have to reach for a nagura or a diamond hone. So a spray of water on the stone, and little work on the back of the chisel and I was back to fresh 6k stone without doing anything else. Success.

I am a proponent of high speed steels if someone works a lot of tropical woods, but otherwise, I think they solve a problem that doesn't exist. However, with good grinding technique, they can be sharpened with "cheap" stones, too. I don't like having stones that are targeted to cut HSS, because there are other things that do it better without compromising the stone itself for the rest of the steels that get used a lot more often (carbon steels, A2, ..that pretty much covers it. Even D2 isn't really hard to sharpen. M2s and beyond are better on diamonds or something hooked up to a plug).

So despite the fact that I am enamored with stones (I have another one coming this week - purple welsh slate, for razors - probably too fine and too slow for tools), and that I would continue buying them in droves, ever more expensive (like the huge $550 razor stone Takeshi has listed - hubba hubba!) if it weren't for my wife....despite that, I'm beginning to lean toward the knowledge of how to use a decent semi finish stone for cheap being every bit as good as buying a stone or set of stones where the stones themselves are more specialized.

I have little doubt at this point that a competent user who is willing to experiment with a 6k king can get just as good of edges as I can get with "the big 3" that i mentioned earlier.

But it probably won't keep me from playing around with more stones.

[Archie England]

Ah, that's the spirit!!!!!

And, if you hadn't gained all this experiential knowledge then the wisdom to try what you've done and discovered would not have happened. I could never have articulated what you just said; but, I've had a similar (albeit much less successful) discovery with my few Chosera stones. After finished and ready to move up to the next stone, if I'll wipe it down and leave it only moist but mostly wiped dry, the stone will impart some fantastic polishing to the bevel edge. Now, I don't do microscopes and photos; but it was much sharper than normal. I just didn't know what it meant.

Thanks for taking one for the team, David; paying for weddings has depleted my funds for a while. To further compound my woes, my baby gets her drivers license next month :( and not to fear--the roads are safe. It's just the parking lots that are serious risk :)

[David Weaver]

This whole discussion reminds me of the saying that's often used in bluegrass circles... beware the guy who only owns one banjo, because he probably knows how to use it.

(hoarding and experimentation and churn in the collection is common in banjo players, too).

[David Weaver]

Ah, that's the spirit!!!!!

And, if you hadn't gained all this experiential knowledge then the wisdom to try what you've done and discovered would not have happened. I could never have articulated what you just said; but, I've had a similar (albeit much less successful) discovery with my few Chosera stones. After finished and ready to move up to the next stone, if I'll wipe it down and leave it only moist but mostly wiped dry, the stone will impart some fantastic polishing to the bevel edge. Now, I don't do microscopes and photos; but it was much sharper than normal. I just didn't know what it meant.

Thanks for taking one for the team, David; paying for weddings has depleted my funds for a while. To further compound my woes, my baby gets her drivers license next month :( and not to fear--the roads are safe. It's just the parking lots that are serious risk :)

haha...you can use the line we always used when someone got a license...."walk on the road, because ___ just got their license, and the sidewalks surely aren't safe".
:)

You're ahead of me if you're already intentionally playing with the polish from a lower grit stone - by years! I haven't done it in earnest until i started with razors and realized that I had exactly zero stones that were suitable to finish a razor when they were freshly scuffed.

Not that I'm trying to discourage people from buying a set of stones. Stu's set is nice, a set of shapton pros (if you can avoid the high cost of them in the US) is nice, a set of choseras is nice (they're not cheap anywhere). I like all of them, but I see them all as sort of the same thing. They make a great set of stones to use, any one of them, and I wouldn't hesitate to buy any one of them.

But for the people who would hesitate to buy any of them because they don't have the money or don't want to put it there, skill can replace wallet thickness and provide results that are just as good when they're needed. I wish I would've realized it earlier - I egged a lot of people on to buy stones! And the more I learn to use them all, the less different they all seem.

It just takes a little of stepping away from the instructional videos ("put your tool in this kind of guide, and pull it on this stone in this way, buy these, and never do it different than this...." blah blah - if you've ever watched a 1 hour sharpening video, you know what I mean) and getting some experimentation in.

[Archie England]

You're ahead of me if you're already intentionally playing with the polish from a lower grit stone - by years! I haven't done it in earnest until i started with razors and realized that I had exactly zero stones that were suitable to finish a razor when they were freshly scuffed.

... buying a set of stones ... I like all of them, but I see them all as sort of the same thing. They make a great set of stones to use, any one of them, and I wouldn't hesitate to buy any one of them.

But for the people who would hesitate to buy any of them ... skill can replace wallet thickness and provide results that are just as good ...And the more I learn to use them all, the less different they all seem.


Okay, ahead of you--but only in age! Wow, the knowledge and wisdom you've accumulated in such a short time! My hat's off to you. You, sir, are one of the best informed people in the room. Of course, Stu and Joel (and many others, too) deserve those accolades.

I owe such experimentation suggestions to Orlando (OBG). He's quite knowledgeable, seriously so, in these matters. We joke around about our fanatical pursuit of the unobtainable sharp edge: there might need to be a 13 step program for blade sharpeners--both for the blade backs and bevels :-). He clued me in to steel nuances that reacted to one stone binder better or worse (think, slower or faster sharpening) as well as to the world of stone responsiveness. For instance, I prefer hard stones to a point; but, if a stone can't produce slurry beyond mere swarf, that stone loses appeal for usage. Once I learned what polishing "FELT" like, it's hard not to want to polish. IMO, polishing = burnishing the final edge, and I can do that nearly well on a Chosera 1k, and definitely on a Chosera 3k and a Gesshin 4k. The Sigma 6k absolutely polishes--but it's not primarily a polishing stone. Like the Choseras, the Sigma power 6000 is a cutter. Keep adding water to soften the swarf and this stone will just keep making an edge sharper, and mirror edge polished, too. But what's lacking in the Sigma 6k is that FEEL. Orlando tells me that the Sigma 8k is the fantastic "feel" stone for polishing. He and another friend, Eric, describe the Sigma power 8k as nearly doubling the polish factor beyond the 6k. Wow! That sounds great. I've just got to get with Stu and make an order (awaiting a reply currently). Now, beyond the 6k I can tell the cut quality coming off the 13,000 is much better than off the 6000 but the blade looks the same, just brighter.

So, to sum up--polishing matters, sometimes. For me, this is the domain of planing end-grain. To achieve that level of sharpness for normal planing is okay--but, honestly, overboard. So our finer grit stones allow us to attack difficult grain, endgrain, and finishes for smoothing so that no sanding is required. Now that I've invested in better and higher grit stones, my use of sand paper for flat work has gone way down. Sharper blades really do make a difference; and to use David's analogy--sharpness without resistance is the shaving feel sought for!

Back to our search, now, for more stones and yet further esoteric sharpening nuances :)

[David Weaver]

So, are you going to go out and let your 6k surface dry off a little and see if you can duplicate the sharpness of the 13k? There's no great reason to do it other than noodling around when you already have the fine stone, but I guess it's a skill builder of sorts.

I'm going to take my 13k tonight and let it dry off and try to work over a razor that i have that's extremely hard, and that may be thwarting a natural stone that I have. The 13k is a nice razor pre-polisher wet, but it releases just a bit of swarf - just enough to show up in the water and make a light slurry -and has a pretty strong draw (feeling of friction on a razor). That keeps it from getting quite the sharpness you'd want on a razor, but maybe used dry or almost dry, it'll do the same a step further than the 6k stone will do and put a level of sharpness on a razor that makes it comfortable (none of the artificial stones really do that wet, they all get sharp enough to shave OK, but they leave a ragged edge. That doesn't matter for woodworking, you blast past that level in wear very quickly such that worrying about it is chasing problems that don't exist).

My original thought with stropping and all of the other stuff that works well with razors is that it's not necessary on a stone with a 1 micron abrasive, because you wear the edge of an iron past the point of benefit so fast that it's a waste of time. I think that's still accurate, but I recognize the value of stropping and polishing now when that tiny abrasive isn't available (and even a 1 micron abrasive that cuts deep can leave an uncomfortable edge on a razor, despite the fact that it would leave a waxy looking super smooth surface on wood).

Short of buying some 30k grit shapton stone (that's not going to happen), the SP 13k is my favorite "fakie" for razors. If stones are doing the final business, natural stones still rule when it comes to making an edge on a razor most of the time, both in fineness and comfort.

[Archie England]

No, the Sigma power 6k is perhaps too durable and hard to do much more than it currently does. In talking this over with Chris, I think we would have to start with a stone that's more friable--with a good binder--to even approximate what you've described. But then, stones with weak binders or that are too friable won't achieve those results either.

Theoretically, place a well prepped blade with small serrations on a stone that more quickly breaks down (like a Suehiro Rika 5K) and then work the slurry from soupy to thick mud, then wipe the stone clean, leave it dry, and make a few last pulls--in this case the grit and binder have broken down to polishing by the time the soup is paste-like, and the stone face is at it's most refined level (which is perhaps much more than 5k, closer to 8k). A few pulls on that moist surface should impart a much better edge than with the slurry since the slurry has potentially varying sizes of grit plus swarf in it. Hence, the better stones probably are too durable to ever simulate what you describe (Shaptons, Sigmas, Choseras, Gesshins, ?) while the older mud binders are perhaps too soft, renewing too much grit to ever find that middle ground of transforming grit into polishing powder. Sounds to me like we've discovered why people follow their high grit stones with the 8k Kitayama, it's the less cutting more polishing stone.

Please, those with experience and knowledge--speak up and address the errors in my thoughts!!! Gotta learn it sometime :)

Archie
near NOLA

[David Weaver]

Archie - I think you'd be surprised in terms of the polishing and the hardness. No matter how hard the stone is, the grit will dull and break if the binder doesn't let it go.

The fujibato house brand stone isn't as hard as something like a 3k chosera or a shapton, but it's hard enough that the only thing in on the dried surface was compacted surface and a lot of metal swarf.

I really don't have any idea which part of it is doing the work, but I have done the same thing with a shapton 5k, which I see people dog all the time, but it will create a very sharp and brightly polished edge if allowed to load. I just didn't do it quite so consciously before. I let the stone load as I was finishing my last work with it because I was too lazy to clean it, but I did notice that it was creating a very keen and smooth edge.

I am starting to realize why a lot of the older wisdom is that good quality natural stones are hard enough such that the "iron flower" (the black swarf) is composed only of metal particles. I think it has to do with versatility. I'm not sure on those hard stones that it's so much the abrasive breaking down, but instead that it too becomes burnished if it's allowed to stay on the surface without being abraded off.

Give it a rip, see what it does. Just make sure the stone is dry enough such that the black metal swarf stays just where it's cut.

It kind of chaps my pants a little bit that this kind of stuff isn't discussed a little more with beginners. I do recall some folks saying "learn your stones, you'll get more out of them if you're familiar with them", and I remember having this discussion with derek a while ago, that shaptons will bring up a super bright polish if you let them load at the last second. But it seems like this sort of stuff should be part of every discussion where someone's first question is how to get a better edge without spending too much.

We are finally making a little new headway, huh? The only thing I can think of where this wouldn't apply is oilstones, that nearly stop cutting when they are totally ignored, and where removing the swarf doesn't refresh them.

[Sean Richards]

Sean, have you used any other waterstones? Archie

Hi Archie,

I have always used India, Arkansas stones and an ancient super nice but unfortunately rather skinny green slate stone. Bought the 300, 1200, 6000 King stones a couple of years ago when I couldn't find a nice replacement Arkansas (my original good one died a untimely death). The Kings are available locally and reasonably priced - for me they get an edge (on plain old O1 for the most part) more than sharp enough - if they didn't I wouldn't use them.

That said for sure there is better and newer stuff out there and if you like experimenting with different stones, etc that is good too. Just not my idea of fun ...

[Jim Foster]

I made a sketch of micron grit size for a number of standard waterstone sizes. If I jump from 1200-6000, it's a big jump in grit size. I suspect the difference in grit size going from stone to stone on a honing process is not the only indicator to the relative time to remove scratches, but, I think it's one data point of interest.

221923

[David Weaver]

Jump in grit size, shape of the cut and aggressiveness of the grit are all things to consider.

With aluminum oxide, you can make large jumps. With the right technique, you can make large jumps even with slow abrasives.

With diamonds, it's not out of line to go straight from 10 microns to 1/2 micron - actually, it works quite well and saves time vs. adding an interim size.

Experience with the stones you're using is the best way to find out what you can and can't get away with.

[Chris Griggs]

Archie - I think you'd be surprised in terms of the polishing and the hardness. No matter how hard the stone is, the grit will dull and break if the binder doesn't let it go.

I just got home pulled out a 1" chisel and tried this on my sig 1k and sig 6k. Honestly, didn't come to a clear conclusion but my impressions were.

- It did make a difference on both the 1k stone and the 6k.

- While the blade wasn't brightly polished off the 1k I would say it worked the edge up closer to the level of 3k (VERY rough guess). Normally I can't shave hair off a 1k, but by working the stone a while I could. Not smoothly, and not popping hair, but a pretty darn sharp edge. Sharp enough to shave SYP end grain farily easily, with only a little bit of fiber seperation. Sharp enough for most woodworking, which off a 1k is pretty cool.

- The 6k I noticed less of a difference, but even with my normal use it gets an edge that beat my old norton 8k. Its about as good of an edge as I've gotten off the Sig 6k w/o following with a strop or higher grit stone, but it's not a edge I haven't gotten before. While I think I'm a pretty competent sharpener maybe if I were a better at working the stone in this way I would have gotten even better results. Don't know.

- Ultimately, I found the the time it took me to work the stones after drying them off would have been time better spent on a strop of higher grit stone

Again, this was just a quick experiment with Daves suggestion, so take my findings with half a grain of salt.

[David Weaver]

Well, for my contribution to the experiments, i have but one razor that hasn't been completely sharpened. An unknown razor that just says "sheffield, best steel".

I put it on the SP 13k, and let the stone dry out. Definitely a bright polish, and with 50 palm strops (about 30 seconds of stropping) it's definitely sharper than the normal sp 13k "wet" edge.

The only thing that I couldn't do, because it's a razor, is apply the pressure I could with the chisel.

It could be that the shaptons and the fujibato stone around the 6k level are ideal for this type of thing, who knows? I'll try it with more stones over the near future, but the fujibato stone is near magical with it. When the surface dries out, the stone turns black with a layer of uniform swarf, and instantly goes to polishing, leaving no scratches behind on the edge.

The kitayama stone will do this, too - pretty well, so I'm pretty sure anyone with a 6k king will have good luck if they work with little pressure and play.

Chris, certainly stropping is fair game. If the 6k stone has left a wire edge that's weak, by all means getting it off quickly with a palm stropping or with a couple of passes on leather is fair. I'd think the only things out of bounds are something that takes a long time and wouldn't realistically be part of the sharpening process in a shop.

[Sean Richards]

David, I have been sort of doing this by default with my King 6k and yes when the stone starts to dry off and load up it really polishes the edge. I hadn't really give it a lot of thought until I read your post. With natural stones after you have used one for a while - you often find a real sweet spot on the stone that just gives that extra polish - different mechanism causing the effect but also brought about by using the same tool (in this case a stone) often enough that you work out how to get the best out of it.

[Chris Griggs]

The kitayama stone will do this, too - pretty well, so I'm pretty sure anyone with a 6k king will have good luck if they work with little pressure and play.

Chris, certainly stropping is fair game. If the 6k stone has left a wire edge that's weak, by all means getting it off quickly with a palm stropping or with a couple of passes on leather is fair. I'd think the only things out of bounds are something that takes a long time and wouldn't realistically be part of the sharpening process in a shop.

The knife guys say this about the Kitayama all the time. Some of say if you follow an 6k or 8k stone with it, it behaves almost like a strop and pushes the edge beyond 12k even though its a technically an 8k. Have you found this to be true? Its stone I've always been curious about, but that's not enough reason for me to drop $75 on it, especially since the next spare cash I have has already been set aside for a Sig 13 . Be curious to know you experience with it (the Kit) though?

I've never done palm stropping. Will have to give it a go. When I mentioned stropping earlier I was referring to using green stuff, which since really creates a fine hone seemed unfair in terms of the "test results". In real use though, heck yes, its fair game. The Sig 6 followed by green stuff give a wicked sharp edge blade.

[David Weaver]

I think you'll find if the edge has a good polish, palm stropping will do as much as green stuff. If the edge is coarse, then the green stuff is a good "cheaty" way to work down some of the grooves, right? I just don't like using it on something that can work back over the edge backwards, but I suppose it isn't going to hurt the edge, and might make it a bit stronger.

I always liked green stuff on MDF - you can use it like a stone and it makes a super keen edge.

I wouldn't buy the kitayama if you're getting the SP 13k, for fine work, the SP 13k is a better stone - it does the "very fine" straightforward without tinkering.

If you use the kitayama straight up (like newly refreshed, etc), the edge isn't as good as a shapton 15k, so all of the talk about fineness is confusing unless it comes with a disclaimer how the stone is used.

The only thing I use the kityama for is (and this makes no sense, it's just habit) keeping mortise chisels in shape by pulling them across it 5 times after each mortise. Someday, I'll sell it so I can justify trying something new.

When you palm strop, by the way (and you may already have a method cooked up), just hold the chisel still and flip your hand back and forth over the edge - it doesn't need to be a long stroke kind of event like a leather strop, whatever is there will come off just from bend it back and forth, and leave the last stroke of your palm such that you pull the edge away from the side you're going to cut (i.e., on a BD plane iron, flip your palm on the back of the iron on the last stroke and don't pull the edge back toward you from the bevel side). You'll be shocked how sharp it is with no extra fluff after something like a 6k stone. You can tell when an edge is truly prepared with a fine stone, when it has that level of sharpness on both sides of the bevel no matter how you finish stropping.

[Chris Griggs]

Cool. Thanks Dave. Will give the palm thing a try. I use green stuff more like a stone than a strop too. I've taken to putting it on piece of thin cardboard that's been glued down to granite. Pull strokes are still best here, but if your careful you can work the blade back and forth like on a stone. It's pretty much the same as using a piece of MDF actually, but I'd don't keep mdf around and when I do the humidity seems to put humps and lumps in it, so the cardboard on granite is better for me.

[Chris Griggs]

Holy Crap! You weren't kidding with that palm stropping thing. Just went over and grabbed the chisel I had sharpened up yesterday. Honed it a bit on my green stuff. As always very, sharp, shaves hair easily. That palm stropped about 20-30 time. It really smoothed out the edge, ran it up my now patchy leg, and I could feel how much smoother it was cutting. Paired some SYP, and it definitely burnished the end grain to a higher level than usual. Next I'll need to try it coming right of the 6k, w/o going to green stuff.

Now my wood won't get raiser bumps and ingrown fibers ;)

[David Weaver]

Now my wood won't get raiser bumps and ingrown fibers ;)

haha...the wood will experience no irritation.

Of course, I don't know what the practical difference may be between a green stuff edge, and a green stuff edge followed by palm stropping, but you can palm strop as you're walking to the bench or thinking about what you're going to do next, so it's not like it takes lot of time.

The real benefit is pulling the edge (for lack of a better term) on stuff like a 6k stone and getting it to behave like it's much sharper than it is.