How to prevent marks from bench cookies on varnished top when finishing other side

[Alan Lightstone]

OK. Need someone's wisdom here.

I'm varnishing a table top, and eventually will have to turn it over to finish the other side.

When I've tried this in the past with painting triangles, I've gotten scratches on the finished side. Or at least marks where the points were. So I've switched to Rockler bench cookies. But when I've taken bench cookies off of non-fully cured varnish, it has left marks.

I'm going to need to pore fill the opposite side, so there will be rubbing involved on the top while the bench cookies are supporting the finished bottom of the top. I should point out that this is for a drafting table, so the bottom of the table top will be visible.

Any suggestions for supporting the table on the finished side while I am working on the opposite side? I really don't want to wait 3 weeks for the Waterlox to fully cure before turning it over to work on the other side. Plus it still might leave marks.

[Jamie Buxton]

The larger the area supporting the back side, the smaller the pressure at any point. Bench cookies spread the weight better than painters points. A towel or a shipping blanket or a piece of old carpet would do even better.

[Todd Burch]

OK. Need someone's wisdom here. ... I really don't want to wait 3 weeks for the Waterlox to fully cure before turning it over to work on the other side. Plus it still might leave marks.

What's wrong with that sentence? Perhaps... using a finish that takes 3 weeks to cure? Wow.

Here's what I do. When coating (brushing, spraying, wiping, etc.) something that gets finished on both sides, I do the under/back/secondary side first, then turn it over any lay it down on screws protruding from a board - but painters points or cookies or whatever can be used too. Then, I finish the $$ side and let it dry.

For the second coat, as Jamie suggested, I lay a blanket down and put the $$ side on the blanket (or rags, etc.) finished the back side, and do as I did for the first coat.

My experience has been, for varnish, fresh Pratt and Lambert 38 usually takes overnight to be dry enough to handle. Second coat takes about 3-4 hours and final coat about 2 hours. I've never used Waterlox - maybe this is why? ;)

[Kent A Bathurst]

I use 2 x 4's on which I have put 4 - 6 layers of cotton wiping rags 9provides a soft cushion], with the top layer pulled snug and stapled on the sides. The longer the better.......spreads the load out.

[Sam Murdoch]

I "like" using Waterlox as it develops into an extremely durable finish with depth and clarity (not the flat sheen) but yes it truly dries ponderously slooooooow.
It is worth the investment of a few thick towels for your purpose. The advantage of towels over quilted moving pads or carpeting is that they can be
thrown into a washing machine. No sense in having an accumulation of finish dust on your protecting "pad".

[Alan Lightstone]

Will the bottom side that is in total contact with a blanket continue to cure? Is oxygen needed at that point for the curing to occur?

Will the blanket or cotton wiping rags stick to the dry, but non-cured finish?

[Sam Murdoch]

If you wait 24 hours, or better 36 hours, under normal drying conditions (you aren't working in a damp basement or an unheated garage) you should be able to leave your finished side down on your padded surface while the other side is worked on and through its 24 hour dry cycle with no issues. By that time the "under side" with its face down on the cloth will be cured 24 hours more and you should be able to place it on padded, taller supports to allow air circulation as you leave the newly finished face open to the air. As an extra precaution move your supports once or twice until you are satisfied that the top surface is dry enough. A couple of overnights for the 2nd surface to cure and you can be assembling your table to its base and all this issue with drying time becomes moot. After 24 hours the drying is primarily internal - that is - that you can sand and apply another coat even while the interior of the finish is still soft. That is why the weight of your piece supported on stand offs will result in impressions in the finish. This is not a technical description but if you have worked with Waterlox before you know what I mean. 3 coats of Waterlox or other Tung Oil varnishes applied with a brush can require several months to fully cure though you can put it into light service long before that.

[Dan Valleskey]

Wow, wish I had read this before I sunk 28 bucks into a can of Waterlox yesterday. I have brushed on one coat over 2 coats dry Watco. It sort of pooled on the lower edges of the sides (small box). I put it on too heavy I guess. Would I have been better off to put the Waterlox on with a rag, like I do with Watco? Of course, the thick varnish is taking longer to set up, and I will in the end just have to scrap or sand it off anyway.

While I have you here- if I continue to use a brush- how do you deal with getting the waterlox to where you can dip a brush in it? I poured a little in a clean soup can, then when I was done, I poured it back into the can it came from. I figure I am losing 50 cents worth of varnish to the soup can every time! And at this rate, I better have Cambells for lunch, as I will run out of cans soon.

Now I am going to go look for my marble collection, I think my mom stuck it in her attic. Sounds like I need to start tossing marbles into the can as I take the level down. Can that at least wait until I am done finishing this project next week?

Thanks in advance for your advice.

-Dan V. in Indy

[Alan Lightstone]

Marbles work (but are a little annoying, can starts getting pretty heavy towards the end, then you need to clean the marbles). I just gave up and buy some Bloxygen. It goes a long way, and it is cool how the can weighs practically nothing.

You can both brush on Waterlox, or wipe it on as a wiping varnish. Diluting it with mineral spirits is helpful if using it as a wiping varnish. It's kind of a foolproof finish that way, and does look great. You can just brush it on. You don't have to thin it if brushing.

I'm just about at the stage where I'll have to turn over the table top. I've been wiping on the Waterlox, so it's taking many coats. Getting to the color and sheen I'll be happy with. I think I'll then let it cure for 3-4 days, then flip it over on a carpet remnant I found at home. Thanks for that suggestion. Sounds like a good one.

It's a lot quicker to brush it on, but you need a quality natural hair brush, and pay attention to technique. It does level on the surface quite well.

BTW, I thought about using Pratt & Lambert 38, but the test pieces looked better with Waterlox than the P&L 38, so I chose the Waterlox.

I'm also running up my electric bill with my air cleaner and a fan with a filter on it when each coat drys. My Dylos is reading about 37-50 ppm, so the air is as dust free as I can make it. Far better than the 500ppm of the ambient air around here.

[Sam Murdoch]

I prefer using a brush or foam pad. It is really not a wiping finish, builds up beautifully with a good brush as Alan writes. As for pouring the used back into the can - you really shouldn't. The air in the open portion has already started it drying and so you contaminate the remainder. An option to marbles is squeezing - actually deforming the can - to make it hold less. Easy to do with the rectangular cans - not at all practical with the round cans. I like the Bloxygen idea though I have yet to do that :D. And yes, it can wait a week until your project is complete.

[Prashun Patel]

Alan, can you finish the top by leaning it against a wall (with towels at the appropriate contact edges)? This will result in pressure only on the end edges; you won't get any marks there.

This will make it a challenge to brush, but you can switch to a wipe on application, which is probably easier in the long run. Which product are you using? Original Sealer or the full strength variety (gloss or satin)?

Dan, Waterlox is notorious for gelling in the can - as soon as it gets some oxygen contact. Pouring back and forth between vessels is a great way to reduce the shelf life of the product - and I mean it'll gel up within a DAY or two. The best way to use Waterlox is all at once. If you cannot, then decant it into a bunch of smaller, 'single-shot' bottles, that can be individually sealed.

There are lots of ways to apply Waterlox. Personally, I think wiping is the easiest. (if yr using full strength, you gotta thin it with mineral spirits).

[Alan Lightstone]

Prashun:

Don't think it will work in my shop leaning against anything. Just nowhere to lean it. Interesting suggestion, though.

I'm using Original Sealer.


Dan:

You must take care about the "gelling in the can" phenomenon. It really can happen (though it also is easy to avoid if you just don't pour back finish into the can, get out the air with marbles or inert gas (Bloxygen), etc.)
Also, if you are going to brush it full-strength, I would definitely wait 24 hours between coats. If using as a wiping varnish, 8 hours seems to work just fine. 12 at worst.


I brushed the first 2 coats of Waterlox on the table top, then used the rest as wiping varnish. That approach seemed to work very well. Build up some finish, then use the wiping varnish approach to perfect the surface. After multiple coats, I wet sanded with mineral spirits and 400 then 600 grit sandpaper, wiping off the residue after each sanding. That really seemed to make a wonderfully smooth surface. Followed that by a few more wiping coats, and voila.

[Dan Valleskey]

Thanks for the quick response, guys. Something about the price tag makes me rail at the prospect of NOT pouring it back in the can. I suspect you are right though. I will be careful not to pour out too much!

I may make a diluted version and try the rag, I can do that in a second can, I have a new clean little paint can in the shop, perfect for the idea. Next coat, anyway, gotta run out and get mineral spirits, all I have right now is a (green) "safer paint thinner" that I use to clean the brush.

[Kent A Bathurst]

FWIW.........for Wlox and for Behlens, I take the original container, and split it up between multiple mason jars. I get the Behlens by the gallon. I get Wlox Satin by the qt - it is the last coat or two wiped on when the goal is a satin finish.

Fill the mason jar to about 1/8" from the top edge, then top off with thinner [MS for Wlox, Behlen's reducer for theirs]. Put the lid on....the thinner is "floating" on the top, so if something oozes out, its thinner. It will not gel.

Since I use Behlens reduced to something like 20% for brushing, that brew go in a separate jar. When I need to open a pint jar of "cask strength", I'll make a half-pint of cask strength, and reduce the rest to brushing. When I'm done with that coat, I'll make a half-pint of brushing, and if there is enough left over, I'll make a half-pint of 50/50 for wiping.

And...the reduced ratios are forgiving, to a point, and the math is simple, so when I have too many 50/50 wiping half-pint jars, the next time I open cask strength, I'll mix that in to make the brushing. And so on. I have a shelf of qt-pint-half pint jars.......all with masking tape stuck on the lid and notes and dates scribbled on them.

I often end up with a small amount that has no mix to go to........so it gets tossed. But - I am sure I am very well ahead of the game, net-net, versus letting it gel.

I was going to try the marbles thing, but I couldn't find enough marbles at a low enough cost to entice me.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I use a brush for Waterlox and I have had very good luck with it. Open the can, guess what I will use and pour that into a small jar. Hit the waterlox in the can with Bloxygen (Private Reserve Wine Preserver is the same thing) then close it up. I do not end up wasting much waterlox.

[Dan Valleskey]

Post script- I made up some Waterlox with a little mineral spirits, I've been wiping it on. It dries in about 4 hours~!! I will finish with finishing tomorrow, I will be able to get back to spewing out some serious sawdust (I do not have a separate area for finish work).

Thanks for all the advice. I will pick up some bloxygen next time I am at Rocklers.

-Dan V. in Indy

[Alan Lightstone]

FWIW, I took out the marbles today and used them on a brand new can of Waterlox. They work, are foolproof, but really are a pain. You can't believe how many marbles it takes to fill up the can. Even partially.

Bloxygen, while I don't think it is 100% foolproof, certainly is easier to use.

[Jerome Hanby]

I bet a bunch of us have ended up with those seal a meal things. They make canisters to go with those so you can vacuum seal coffee and like stuff. Wonder how those would work to store leftover finish?


FWIW, I took out the marbles today and used them on a brand new can of Waterlox. They work, are foolproof, but really are a pain. You can't believe how many marbles it takes to fill up the can. Even partially.

Bloxygen, while I don't think it is 100% foolproof, certainly is easier to use.

[Alan Lightstone]

So, I finished the apron portion of the table (with an interior tabletop). It has been sitting on 4 mason jars with folded up blue Scott's paper towel padding it (to lift it off my workbench). Probably been on there for a month while I finished the top portion of it.

The Waterlox had been dry for I think 3-4 days before I placed the top on the mason jars/paper towels.

Now, when taking the piece off, I can see four areas where there are prominent circles where the jar tops were.

So I'm left with my original dilemma with the top of the drafting table. How do I rest the top on a surface without the bottom side getting ruined by contact with the supports.

I'm leaning towards carpet (though right now it is sitting on 4 bench cookies covered with wax paper.) Is there any way to win this battle?

The bottom of this piece has cured for over a month, but being a drafting table, the bottom of the tabletop will be visible.

What can be done (if anything) to repair the marks. Can I just put another coat of varnish on it? Will rubbing out make the marks go away. Is it hopeless?

[Sam Murdoch]

So, I finished the apron portion of the table (with an interior tabletop). It has been sitting on 4 mason jars with folded up blue Scott's paper towel padding it (to lift it off my workbench). Probably been on there for a month while I finished the top portion of it.

The Waterlox had been dry for I think 3-4 days before I placed the top on the mason jars/paper towels.

Now, when taking the piece off, I can see four areas where there are prominent circles where the jar tops were.

So I'm left with my original dilemma with the top of the drafting table. How do I rest the top on a surface without the bottom side getting ruined by contact with the supports.

I'm leaning towards carpet (though right now it is sitting on 4 bench cookies covered with wax paper.) Is there any way to win this battle?

The bottom of this piece has cured for over a month, but being a drafting table, the bottom of the tabletop will be visible.

What can be done (if anything) to repair the marks. Can I just put another coat of varnish on it? Will rubbing out make the marks go away. Is it hopeless?


I didn't really mean it Alan (that other post) :(. Man this sucks!. I can only GUESS that your piece is too heavy to have been resting on 4 - 3" diam. supports. Don't know how to fix it - don't dare suggest that you need sand and recoat :confused:.

As for the table top itself I'm pretty confident that if the bottom has cured for a month that you can do no better than setting it on a flat soft surface (carpet, towel, foam pad) while you finish the other face. Your other choice is to somehow hang it from an edge or lean it against something that supports just one edge. I can't imagine that that is necessary. Can you assemble the table and finish the top in place?

I have never, ever, had these issues. I'm sorry for your aggravation. That Sherwin Williams stuff is sounding better all the time isn't it? :rolleyes:

Hang in there.

Sam

[Alan Lightstone]

I didn't really mean it Alan (that other post) :(.

I have never, ever, had these issues. I'm sorry for your aggravation. That Sherwin Williams stuff is sounding better all the time isn't it? :rolleyes:

No worries, Sam. I thought it was pretty funny.

I've got it on a piece of carpet now. I sure hope this doesn't mar the underneath of the tabletop. Having a solid month to cure, hopefully I'll be set.