Safety and TV

[Keith Christopher]

You know I was watching a show on DIY about tiling called Tiling Techniques. Very informative show. But as I watched I was AMAZED that they don't get a thousand lawsuits against them from injured homeowners. Other than safety glasses there was NO cause for safety. When he was cutting on the wetsaw, he had his fingers about 3/8" (or less)from the blade with no safety feature at all ! several times he would hold the piece in both hands and plung it into the blade "freehand" perhaps I've not done tiling but something bothers me when you see something like that happen.


Keith

[John Hemenway]

Wet saws are abrasive and don't have the sharp parts like ww saws. It doesn't hurt to touch the moving blade.

Stubbie :)

[Jeff Sudmeier]

Keith,

I agree with you! How these shows get away with it is amazing. Their disclaimer that anything stupid we did was so that you could see better must cover their butts.

I once saw DIY woodworking where the host was showing how to make a feather board. He made it and then clamped it to the TS. He ran a 8/4 peice of maple through about half way and then took both hands off and said see "no hands". I can take my hands off of the peice of wood and it will not kick back. NOTE: His manhood was at just the right level to catch the kick back!

Now I hate it when they don't use guards, this one down right floored me. I sent an email to DIY saying that they need to get more safety minded (or something like that). Anyway, it is rampant and I hope a newbee doesn't get hurt because of it.

[Greg Scott]

If you watch close before almost any show that involves a possibiltiy of injury there is a disclaimer I'm sure that covers their liability.

[Keith Christopher]

Wet saws are abrasive and don't have the sharp parts like ww saws. It doesn't hurt to touch the moving blade.

Stubbie :)

Stubbie,

While I understand that, I am not sure I would say doesn't hurt to touch. I would say, prolly won't take off a finger in less than one second. but ceramic tile _vs_ human skin. I'm thinking skin being softer wouldn't be much of a challenge. To be sure these blades are not as devastating as a std WW ts blade, I don't doubt touching a spinning one or getting a finger trapped between a fence and blade would smart more than a little.


Keith

[Alan Tolchinsky]

How about David Marks and Norm? They never use a splitter or guards. And I don't think it's just for filming either. I believe it's their normal technique and it makes me cringe sometimes. But I'm guessing they know something I don't know, like a lot of things. :) Alan in Md.

[Loy Hawes]

I set tile for a living. I can put my thumb on the blade while its running and leave it there all day if I had the patience. The blade is lubricated by water. The water reduces the heat that builds up from friction between the blade and the tile,stone, and even your thumb.

[Carole Valentine]

I have decided that their idea of safety and my idea of safety are worlds apart. I watch the shows and and sometimes I learn from them, but my approach is usually modified to incorporate my own safety rules and I take responsibility for my own safety. I believe that if you are not going to accept that responsibility, you probably shouldn't be using power tools. Monkey-see-monkey-do is BAD when it comes to television! That said, I would think the producers would have a safety man review their shoots for obviously unsafe practices, but apparently they don't. I see things all the time that I would never do. For instance, on one show just the other day, they were showing how to make and use a featherboard on a TS. The host situated the featherboard NOT so it was ahead of the blade, but so it was pressing the wood against the front half the blade. As the cut completed, you see that he was a little nervous because the end of the offcut was being jammed against the blade by the featherboard. He then reached over the blade and pulled the offcut out (with the featherboard still against it) before turning off the saw. No splitter either. Gave me the willies

[Kirk (KC) Constable]

How about David Marks and Norm? They never use a splitter or guards. And I don't think it's just for filming either. I believe it's their normal technique and it makes me cringe sometimes. But I'm guessing they know something I don't know, like a lot of things. :) Alan in Md.

Time for my annual commentary on this topic...

Why should it make you cringe? It's THEM operating the equipment, not you. Use 'em if YOU feel better using them. Many, many, MANY professional and serious hobbysist woodworkers don't use a splitter or guard for one reason or another. I've never used either because I think they interfere with my ability to SEE and control the workpiece...and I strongly believe that operator confidence is an awfully big part of safety. Maybe even the biggest part.

Now, there's a difference between 'confidence' and 'cockiness'. If I don't feel absolutely comfortable with an operation, I simply don't do it. There's more than one way to accomlish most tasks, and a dumb cut on a tablesaw is a dumb cut...splitter and guard in use or not.

KC

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Time for my annual commentary on this topic...

Why should it make you cringe? It's THEM operating the equipment, not you. Use 'em if YOU feel better using them. Many, many, MANY professional and serious hobbysist woodworkers don't use a splitter or guard for one reason or another. I've never used either because I think they interfere with my ability to SEE and control the workpiece...and I strongly believe that operator confidence is an awfully big part of safety. Maybe even the biggest part.

Now, there's a difference between 'confidence' and 'cockiness'. If I don't feel absolutely comfortable with an operation, I simply don't do it. There's more than one way to accomlish most tasks, and a dumb cut on a tablesaw is a dumb cut...splitter and guard in use or not.

KC

I'm not saying they should use anything they don't want to. They can use their feet to feed the board through for all I care. Many, many hobbiests and pros DO use a splitter and guard. You never saw anybody do something that made you feel uncomfortable? I use both splitter and guard and I do sometimes have trouble seeing because of the blade guard. In that case I simply raise it out of the way. But I keep the splitter in there all the time for through cuts and it's never a problem for me. So bottom line here is what's safe for one person may not be safe for another depending on their level of experience and how alert they are.

[Kirk (KC) Constable]

....So bottom line here is what's safe for one person may not be safe for another depending on their level of experience and how alert they are.

Right you are. What bothers me is that just a whole lot of folks starting out may be lulled into a false sense of security because of all the fancy saftey gadgets they're using...without having a base of practical experience...and the knowledge and respect of the equipment that comes with it.

KC

[Bill Arnold]

Yeah, it bothers me also to see the TV guys using virtually no safety equipment, although I haven't used the blade guard or splitter on my tablesaw in years. I think it's important for newbies to use the safety devices, at least until they are very familiar with the equipment. I'm comfortable using the saw without them, but recently purchased the MJ Splitters and will install them today.

One of the issues for me has been switching between different types of cuts. The blade guard gets in the way of smaller cuts and can actually create a dangerous situation in my opinion.

After a lifetime behind a desk, I worked in cabinet shops for a couple of years before officially 'retiring'. The only saws with guards still intact were the Altendorf sliders (2 of them). There were several tablesaws and none of them had guards or splitters -- they would slow down production too much.

Regards,

[Ian Barley]

I just cannot follow the "I do it a lot, am proficient at it, and can therefore work with less intrinsic safety" argument.

I used to drive my car to customers sites all over the country and did about 5-6 times the average number of mileseach year. Statistically if I did this every year of my life I must be more exposed (maybe not 5-6 times more, but more) to the risk of a road traffic accident.

If , as a pro, I use my tablesaw/spindle moulder/router table as much in a couple of weeks as a hobbiest does in a year I must be more exposed to the risks associated with using that machine. I just cannot see that being experienced is gonna give me the reflexes required to deal with the speed of a kickback incident.

I consider my self pretty experienced at walking down stairs. I've done it lots of times for many years of my life but six weeks ago, for a variety of reasons, I slipped while doing so and broke my ankle. I won't be back to normal for another six weeks. I will certainly be more careful about that activity in future and if there was a simple safety device that gave me even 10% better protection from the same thing happening again I would use it.

That said, we all make our own decisions about what risks we accept and which ones we reject. I just feel that the guys on the TV have a reasonable responsiblity to show that there are some ways of working that are safer than others. Does the absence of a blade guard on Norm's TS really make it easier to understand the process he is demonstrating?

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Time for my annual commentary on this topic...

Why should it make you cringe? It's THEM operating the equipment, not you. Use 'em if YOU feel better using them. Many, many, MANY professional and serious hobbysist woodworkers don't use a splitter or guard for one reason or another. I've never used either because I think they interfere with my ability to SEE and control the workpiece...and I strongly believe that operator confidence is an awfully big part of safety. Maybe even the biggest part.

Now, there's a difference between 'confidence' and 'cockiness'. If I don't feel absolutely comfortable with an operation, I simply don't do it. There's more than one way to accomlish most tasks, and a dumb cut on a tablesaw is a dumb cut...splitter and guard in use or not.

KC
I am completely with Kirk on this one. For everyone who likes to have all the safety equipment attached, that's great. For those of us who don't, we feel the same way you do about the other way of doing it. There's no way I'd ever use most of the safety equipment for the reason Kirk mentioned...most of them reduce your ability to see & control the work after it leaves the blade.

I find that most who are appalled at the lack of safety measures are not people who work with the machines everyday. For those folks who use tools only occasionally, it's a very good idea to use all the safety measures you can. Of course, I know there are exceptions...there may be many of them right here at SMC.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I have to disagree Ian. Experience in kickback for instance. I have had 4 incidents over 30+ years and not one has ever touched me. One reason is because I never stand directly behind the work I feed into the TS (no one should). The other reason is experience has taught me what to look for after the first one went sailing into the grill of my truck (no damage).

Same goes for driving...each year I drive I become less likely to be involved in an accident (unless a jet falls on me or someone runs a light and broadsides me). I pay extra special attention to the driving aspect...especially since the huge influx of extremely bad drivers into our city. I can watch the wheels of any car and tell you exactly what they are gonna do next.

I think the idea of being lax because of experience is a problem for some people, but for most it's exactly the opposite.

[Ian Barley]

I have to disagree Ian. Experience in kickback for instance. I have had 4 incidents over 30+ years and not one has ever touched me. One reason is because I never stand directly behind the work I feed into the TS (no one should). The other reason is experience has taught me what to look for after the first one went sailing into the grill of my truck (no damage).

Same goes for driving...each year I drive I become less likely to be involved in an accident (unless a jet falls on me or someone runs a light and broadsides me). I pay extra special attention to the driving aspect...especially since the huge influx of extremely bad drivers into our city. I can watch the wheels of any car and tell you exactly what they are gonna do next.

I think the idea of being lax because of experience is a problem for some people, but for most it's exactly the opposite.

I suspect that I didn't make my point well. It wasn't that I think we become lax through experience, I agree with you that experience is what enables us to be better. My point was more about vulnerability through volume. In my driving example, one of the reasons I looked to get out of that work was because one day driving on the motorway a truck wheel bounced on the carriageway in front of me, went over my car, and bounced on the carriageway behind me. A very lucky escape. 2 seconds difference in journey time and I would have been wearing it. Nothing to do with my skill level and definitely nothing I could have avoided other than by not being there in the first place. My point was that if I spend 5 times as long on the road I am five times more likely to be under the jet engine when it falls or in front of the drunk who runs the red light. (Statisticians rest easy - I know that the probabilty doesn't work quite like that). If I have to take that extra level of risk and be there that much more often I'm gonna wear my seat belt all the time for the extra protection that I believe it gives me most of the time.

I agree with you that there are a whole host of passive safety techniques, posture etc. I just take the view that the more I can use the more protection I have.

I am also not making any comment on the safety measures that anybody chooses in their own shop. I just think that if I was using my shop to give public demonstrations to a wide audience I would think it was important to stress the need to use stuff like guards and riving knives and to work safe. And yes, I also choose to use them when I work with the machines every day and have to say that I do not find that they inhibit me from doing anything or slow me down.