Lie-Nielsen Panel Saws

[Mike Holbrook]

I was noticing on LN's web site that their panel saw is taper ground. I did not realize panel saws with plates made that way were still being made. I was wondering how these saws compare to the older saws?

[Chris Vandiver]

A vintage panel saw in good condition is very, very hard to beat. They come up here in the classified from time to time, usually at a very reasonable cost.

[Pedder Petersen]

I sawed with one of them once, and liked it. Wenzloff and Sons tapergrinds their handsaws, too. (And so does Pax.)

Cheers
Pedder

[David Weaver]

I was noticing on LN's web site that their panel saw is taper ground. I did not realize panel saws with plates made that way were still being made. I was wondering how these saws compare to the older saws?

If you're willing to clean and sharpen a saw, you can get a saw that is easily the equal of LN's (including in style) for $20 fairly often. It may not always be on ebay, but keep your eyes open. Ebay may actually be a bad place to buy a saw these days unless you really know what to look for in a restorable saw.

Even a decent saw with good teeth and a dark plate (but otherwise in good shape) can be had for $50 or so with a little hunting (i.e., it won't really need anything other than a touch up of the teeth). I think I paid Walt Q $55 for a 22 inch Disston #12 panel, and a touch up of the teeth was all it needed. I know I got another dark #12 from him for about the same price, and an already cleaned up #12 rip from clint jones for $60. All pre WWI #12s. This wasn't that long ago.

For a little more, a refurbished saw, but not a #12.

You'll fill your till with the best saws for the least money if you're willing to do a little bit of work on them. And the key to getting a good deal is sitting back and waiting a little until you find what you want as opposed to going out right now and saying that you're going to get something on the market right this second.

The benefit of the LN saw, however, is that you can get it out of the box and use it, and it will probably have a pretty high market value as long as LN is in business (not that there will be anything wrong with the saw if they go out of business, but some tools do tend to have a higher value if their origin is still operating).

[Mike Holbrook]

I knew Wenzloff made some tapered backsaw plates but thought the hand/panel saws were flat. I know the kits have flat plates.

I was mostly just wondering if L-N was approaching the quality of the old saws. I have been shopping saws at auction for 6-8 months. I have maybe a half dozen, half of which will end up users. I have been restoring these saws. I am waiting on epoxy glue & filler from West Systems to get here so I can repair some handles. Since I work at two different buildings I will place the rougher saws in my business building and the better saws in my shop. I just bought a Gramercy saw file and I have been studying two videos ( Law & Herman) on saw sharpening in addition to free videos and written work from various places. My business is running a dog park & training dogs and there is always work to do to the building...adding 50 x 10' of rooms below the building right now..then cabinets..I prefer using hand tools, particularly saws, so I don't remove parts off curious pouches.

I bought quite a few off brand saws in an attempt to find better saws at better prices. Maybe this has given me something of an education on auctions. Now I am thinking on bidding on a couple higher quality, more popular, specific saws. Sounds like David likes Disston #12's. Any other words of wisdom on manufacturers & models. I have been looking at Disston, Simonds, Atkins, Keen Kutter, Bishop.....

[David Keller NC]

Disston #12s that are pre-1917 are fairly sought after, and ones in very good condition usually go for more than a new one from L-N, and about the same as a panel saw from Wenzloff & Sons. Of course, "good condition" means "good condition by a collector's standards", not necessarily a user's standards. Keen Kutters have their own collector's market - the more common ones typically sell for a bit less than a desirable equivalent in the Disston line.

Simonds, Atkins, and Spear and Jackson, however, are all fine saws if made before the 1930's or so, and usually can be found for quite a bit less than their Disston cousins because they're not as hotly collected.

[David Weaver]

I do like #12s, but as Dave says, there's nothing about them that can't be found in other saws. I like to get them when they are a rung below what collectors want, and the issues that make them that way (a dark plate with a hard-to read etch, etc) have nothing to do with using the saw effectively.

I would never take a pitted #12 crosscut over a fit taper ground saw of any make, and only tolerate a little very minor pitting on a rip saw (though I don't have any that have pitting). I personally don't like the post 1917 saws, but the ones between the wars work fine, i just think the wheat on them is garish and I don't like the newer disston medallion.

I think I might have 15 saws or so. The #12s were the most expensve ones that I have along with a huge rip file that I bought from a dealer. There's nothing that a #12 will do that a Disston #7 won't do, or that any other similar saw from a quality maker back around that time wouldn't do.

My two favorite saws are probably a spear and jackson 26 inch long 12 tpi carpenter saw ($12 on ebay late one night) and a groves and sons 26 inch 6 point rip saw (that was about $35 on the fine tool journal newsletter sale). Both saws are old. They are, in use, every bit as nice as a disston #12, and their totes a lot more tasteful and still retaining evidence of a craft that included handwork and taste above machinery. That is the one thing I don't like about disstons, that very early on, their saw handles lost their personality in favor of mechanization, and then a lot of the saws got covered in mechanically ground wheat - something I really would rather do without. A nicely made handle with crisp lines needs no wheat.

Anyway, other examples of what a little bit of lazy scrounging (searches auctions on ebay that end at an odd time) has provided are two $15 D8 thumbhole rip saws, 4 1/2 and 5 1/2 point - very useful for a hand tool woodworker, a very nice #7 panel saw for $25, and a bunch of atkins saws that were in a group that ended up being about $10 each.

I don't look for disstons, I have a search set up that's more in line with what david mentions (a search for hand saws that intentionally as a -disston in it to make sure I don't get disston results). Sometimes I find disstons, but i'm not looking for them because they usually sell for too much for me.

In all of my buying on ebay, I've gotten a d8 panel with a kink in that a seller didn't inform me of despite my asking ($20) and 3 spear and jackson vintage saws for $15 that a seller had bad pictures of and called them basket cases. He was right, they're basket cases - their steel fodder for marking knives, and their split nuts and medallions subject to harvest. Well, that and a saw that's too hard to file, but it's still sharp (that was $30) - a disston #7. The seller never would know that unless they filed the saw, and they didn't, so I just let it go. In the grand scheme, I'm still way way ahead.

I don't use D8s a lot, I like the patterns that lean toward the english arrangement of the handle set off the back of the saw, but they (D8s) are good saws, as are just about every make's D8 copy, and the saws that don't look like D8 copies, as long as they're before the advent of circular saws (1935 or so).

Here's the important things to have in a user saw:
* a taper grind of some sort
* most or all of the plate thickness left unless the saw is given to you for just about free
* no pitting, especially near the teeth on a crosscut saw
* a fairly straight plate, with only a gradual wave in it if it's not straight
* a decent handle (horns chipped off is no big deal. A huge crack across the entire cheek or a busted handle structurally is bad news) with all the original nuts and medallions
* no broken teeth, unless there's something else about the saw deal that makes it great. Teeth that look like a pumpkin (all different sizes with no uniformity) are also bad news. It's tons of trouble to "move" them back in line by filing, and it's a brain burning activity, too - a lot of thinking.

Other than that, if you can help it, I'd keep the saws before WWI era roughly (you'll learn to spot it) if you can help it, and before WWII if you can't.

And a source for files and the willingness to file (if you don't have both of those already). If someone is not willing to learn to file, then vintage saws are not going to end up being that cheap, and you'll have a saw in the end that's hard to get your money back out of.

[Mike Holbrook]

Well I have something like 10 or 12 saw files. When Wenzloff got backed up I went ahead and ordered files from Gramercy, a month or so later Wenzloff shipped after I thought the order was forgotten. NP though as they will all get used.

I am having a little trouble dating many of the auction saws. I am starting to recognize characteristics of the older saws but the sellers frequently do not know or only mention a patent date. I have a link to the Disston web site but information on the other brands still remains mostly a mystery to me. Is there a good place to find info. on the other saw types? I did not know that the decorated (wheat) handles dated the Disston saws, anything with a wheat pattern is a more recent saw?

I'm also not sure what exactly people mean by pitting. Most of the old saws have lots of old discoloration and what is probably rust marks. I imagine pitting means a relatively noticeable indentation in the surface of the metal not just surface rust, gunk or discoloration? Quite a few sellers say their saw has lots of patina but no rust. That statement seems highly unlikely to me, although I can certainly imagine rust development being arrested before it caused pitting.

I have made the mistake of buying several saws with badly cracked handles. I read an article on repairing handles and made the incorrect assumption that they are easy to repair.

[David Weaver]

Not necessarily wheat meaning a later saw as a binary decision maker, but among the saws with wheat, the earlier wheat is smaller and more tastefully done.

But I am convinced that it was put on the saws to cover up the fact that the handles weren't very interesting. It must've worked as a differentiator.

Just keep looking at the disston saws. You'll be able to spot the medallions from the disstonian page, and maybe not necessarily by eye be able to say anything other than "too new" or not, but also look at the handles on the saws like the D8s and some of the other saws - the later saws have light colored handles, and are more blocky. It's being a bit picky I guess, but those saws aren't very inviting to pick up and sight down. They look like a brick with a radio antenna from above.

Any surface rust will cause some pitting, it's just a matter of how deep the pits will be after you remove it. You can spot it to some extent, but if you see leafy rust or very coarse dense rust, you're likely not going to sand it out when you clean a saw up. Experience will guide this. sellers love to say that everything is superficial surface rust.

As far as the rest of the non-disston types, you'll get to the point where you spot things (like carving vs. pressed designs in atkins saws, etc), that will telegraph some or all of the time that something is older. It's a matter of experience, though there is some overlap (for example, Spear and Jackson appears to have stuck to the beech lamb's tongue handle well after disston went to mostly machine-finished handles).

And I am by no means a collector, so the above is sort of subjective. Being a collector or "correct police" about how exactly disston did something June of 1891, for example is something I never want to get invovled with.

[Mike Holbrook]

Is the tooth type a major issue? Some saws do not say if they are rip or CC and if there is not a good picture of the teeth. I have not tried it yet but I read that it is not hard to change from one to the other. I am interested in combo filing a saw or two too so I guess the tooth configuration is not a big deal, maybe more so if the saw was sharpened to sell. Most of the sharpened saws cost more though so I figure most of the ones I will be looking at will need work anyway.

One other thing I am a little confused by. I think some saws were just built thinner, so I am not always sure how much of the original plate is still there. If there is an etching, sometimes I can tell that the teeth are getting close to the etch. Tom Law said on his DVD that he likes worn saws with shorter plates because he figures the owner liked the saw and used it alot.

[Bob Jones]

I want the LN panel saws. They are the way to go if you don't want to sharpen them yourself. I have sent backsaws to them for sharpening and they do a great job and it is super cheap ($15).

[Mike Holbrook]

I don't know Bob, it seems to me that I could sharpen a saw myself in half the time it would take me to wrap it up and mail it off. Maybe it is just me but I hate going to the post office.

[David Weaver]

I don't know Bob, it seems to me that I could sharpen a saw myself in half the time it would take me to wrap it up and mail it off

That's true. Though not necessarily on a 28 inch miter box with 11 tpi crosscut teeth.

But on everything else, you can touch up a rip saw extremely quickly if you do it once every large project (that's supposing that you're using the rip saw to rip all of your lumber for the project) and joint every third time or so. Like 5 minutes, and maybe 20 minutes on the time that you joint, 30 if you fiddle with the set at that point, too (which isn't something I generally think about unless I notice that a saw needs reset).

Though I understand why people send saws off, and that's not a knock on doing that. $15 is dirt cheap for a good quality job.

[Jim Matthews]

Sharpening is as easy or complicated as you wish to make it.

The hardest part is in seeing what you have done. I use a black magic marker on the teeth. That shows the bright, freshly filed steel well.
Two things about teeth shape and plate grinding - the more the teeth stick out side to side, the more resistance they generate, a plate that's taper ground can have less set.

The amount of "fleam" in sharpening makes less difference in cutting (crosscut versus ripcut) than the angle of attack on each tooth.
If the gullet of the tooth meets the leading edge at 90 degrees (12 o'clock), it will be difficult to start and push.

I like a more relaxed rake angle (http://norsewoodsmith.com/content/sharpening-hand-saws) on BOTH my crosscut and ripcut saws. It takes more strokes, but uses less sweat.

My aim is to produce a straight cut, to the line, with as little surface damage as possible.

[Ray Bohn]

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I found this D7 20" panel saw on line. I spent about 2 hours on it. It seems to work great, but since this is my first handsaw I have nothing to compare it to.

[Chris Vandiver]

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I found this D7 20" panel saw on line. I spent about 2 hours on it. It seems to work great, but since this is my first handsaw I have nothing to compare it to.

Ray- That's a great looking saw! By the way that is a Disston #7 and not a Disston D7. The medallion on your saw dates it between 1896-1917. Beautiful!

[David Weaver]

Ditto to what Chris said. That is a really wonderful little saw, a pearl in that condition. Wow.

[Chris Vandiver]

Disston #7s are my favorite.

[David Weaver]

I agree. I wish I could find low priced vintage 7s as often as i seem to find 12s. I only have two of them, and one is the saw that can't be touched by any single cut file, so it is junk that at best might make nice marking knives because of its hardness.

The 7s have the nicest design and proportions. The handles aren't bulky like the 12s, they are tasteful looking and they aren't pocked up by huge bites of machine cut wheat. They are also in a nice location for smooth use.

[Mike Holbrook]

So an update,

I decided I could buy several older saws for the price of the LN panel saw.

Won a 22" Atkins that I am working on. It has/had a little bend in the blade that I was worried about but I think I am/can work it out and it cuts nice. For $25 I thought it would be hard to loose on it. You guys got me excited about the D7's too, I have admired their classic good looks for quite a while. I sucked it up and hung in on an auction for a D7 24", "7 TPI" with a great handle that just needs to be refinished. The blade is suppose to be straight and have all its teeth, but it will need work too. I think it will clean up into a great worker.

I understand that many on these pages like the big hand saws 26-28" and I have two of those but I like the 20-24" panel saws with thinner plates better. I bought a Gramercy Sash saw with thin plate and combo filling and for me it cuts very fast compared to saws that are bigger and have larger teeth. I think part of the reason is I was use to sawing with folding japanese saws with very thin plates and developed a light touch in order to make these saws work. My saw tends to wander off the mark if I try to apply pressure and I am just slower. I think I can get better results with thinner, shorter blades, even with smaller teeth. If nothing else I will get plenty of practice with my new Gramercy saw vise.

[Jim Matthews]

I found this D7 20" panel saw on line. I spent about 2 hours on it. It seems to work great, but since this is my first handsaw I have nothing to compare it to.

These are awesome saws. They were made in huge numbers, and tradesman built most of the homes in America with them.
Yours has lots of plate remaining below the handle, so you should be able to keep it sharp for the remainder of your life.

I like to have five saws; two 29" long for thicker boards, one crosscut and one ripcut - two shorter (20 inches or so) with finer teeth filed the same way and a good 16 inch backsaw for the most precise jobs. D7s can be had for not much money and cut just as well as their more expensive cousins.

[Chris Vandiver]

These are awesome saws. They were made in huge numbers, and tradesman built most of the homes in America with them.
Yours has lots of plate remaining below the handle, so you should be able to keep it sharp for the remainder of your life.

I like to have five saws; two 29" long for thicker boards, one crosscut and one ripcut - two shorter (20 inches or so) with finer teeth filed the same way and a good 16 inch backsaw for the most precise jobs. D7s can be had for not much money and cut just as well as their more expensive cousins.

Not to be nitpicky but the Disston #7 and the Disston D-7 are two different saws. The D-7 was introduced in 1928 and replaced the #7. Although the D-7 is a good saw, it isn't in the same league as a #7.

Here is a D-7

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Vintage-Disston-Saw-D-7-/00/s/NzUwWDE2MDA=/$(KGrHqFHJ!0E8e4soqqyBPJW5IpuCg~~60_35.JPG


And a #7
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/SMALL-DISSTON-7-1896-1917-22-GREAT-HANDLE-HAND-SHARPENED-ETCHING-NICE-/00/s/NDgwWDY0MA==/$(KGrHqJ,!h!E8f3!8yH(BPJKoZCglQ~~60_35.JPG

[Jim Matthews]

Are you saying the Disston 7 wasn't produced in large numbers? It was one of the first mass-produced products made in America.

"Not to be nitpicky..." I do appreciate you taking time off from your advanced Klingon studies to set us straight.

[Chris Vandiver]

Jim,
I wasn't saying that the Disston #7 wasn't mass produced, All I was saying was that the Disston #7 and the Disston D-7 are two different saws. In this thread, people were using the term #7 and D-7 interchangeably, so all I was trying to do was point out the difference. Sorry if I offended you, in any way.



Are you saying the Disston 7 wasn't produced in large numbers? It was one of the first mass-produced products made in America.

"Not to be nitpicky..." I do appreciate you taking time off from your advanced Klingon studies to set us straight.

[Mike Holbrook]

The Disstonian Institute says something similar to what Chris mentions regarding these two saws. The #7 is the original and probably better saw. The D7s came out between 1920 & 1928, replacing the #7 in 1928 according to the Disstonian Institute. Judging by the lambs tongue handle and nib Ray's is a #7, as is mine.

The history is interesting, apparently the guy who started Disston developed the ability to make his own steel. There apparently was very little steel made in the US at that time and the civil war created even more demand, giving Disston a competitive edge, allowing the company to prosper when other saw companies went out of business. The #7, being Disston's first major product, was apparently the motivation behind Disston making it's own steel, defining the company. One could make a strong case for the #7 being the saw that launched American saw makers into the forefront of hand saw producers. The success of the American saw makers having largely to do with the steels and steel manufacturing processes developed to make these saws. Who would have thought that a hand saw could play such an important part in the development of the US steel industry.