No Two Snowflakes Alike?

[Wil Limanen]

I've heard that but have a very hard time believing it. After last night's snow and cleaning out the 4 foot high bank the snowplow left in my driveway.:(

[curtis rosche]

at my house we always clear the side of the road before our driveway, that way the plow dumps all its snow before our driveway. it works for the most part until the plow driver sees it as meaning he needs to get closer to the edge of the road

[Wil Limanen]

Yeah, I thought about that but figured the driver would find another way too. I used to use a bobcat but got rid of it last year because it was a little overkill now that I moved to a lesser driveway. Sure wish I had it back now.

[Van Huskey]

Well first you have to have a nucleation site ie a dust particle, then the ice begins to form into hexagonal prisms then... nevermind they are all just different, honest.

[curtis rosche]

Yeah, I thought about that but figured the driver would find another way too. I used to use a bobcat but got rid of it last year because it was a little overkill now that I moved to a lesser driveway. Sure wish I had it back now.

no harm in trying to to see if it works out.

[Ryan Mooney]

Depends on your definition of snowflake and alike :p

http://www.its.caltech.edu/~atomic/snowcrystals/alike/alike.htm

Another interesting point of probable uniqueness is shuffled decks of cards..

http://www.matthewweathers.com/year2006/shuffling_cards.htm

None of this is helping me keep the driveway clear of snow.

[Jim Rimmer]

See John C.'s post about useless knowledge. :D No one knows if they are not alike until you compare them all.

[Moses Yoder]

I think this is the guy that did the photographs in the book we own. An interesting site anyway. http://snowflakebentley.com/ You can kill a couple hours there not shoveling snow.

[Van Huskey]

No one knows if they are not alike until you compare them all.

Sorta the basis for the long lack of proof of Fermet's last theorum (just ask Homer Simpson) but along came Wiles...

NOt nearly the same thing but useless knowledge none the less.

[Joe Pelonio]

Last time I tried to verify that the darn things kept melting. :eek:

That foot or so we got last week has finally just about all melted.

[Dan Hintz]

Got an inch or two here last week, but a couple of 45-60 degree days killed it off in short order... happily, too.

I can only hope it stays that way...

[Gary Hodgin]

How does anyone know this? We can know that flakes are different but how do we know for sure that no two are the same. Obviously, we haven't looked at all of them. Same thing applies to finger prints.

[Dan Hintz]

How does anyone know this? We can know that flakes are different but how do we know for sure that no two are the same. Obviously, we haven't looked at all of them. Same thing applies to finger prints.
Chaos theory.

[Wil Limanen]

221208221209Now if I could get everybody to take a bucket home with them to compare. I could sell my snowblower!

[Gary Hodgin]

Assuming all the flakes so far have been different, it looks like even under chaos theory that eventually either two flakes would be the same or it stops snowing.

Personally, I think some that have fallen have been the same. We had a light snow with small flakes a few weeks ago. A lot of flakes fell and melted too quickly for me to check them, but several of them looked alike to me. I think a lot of scientists are just trying to impress us, perhaps to get more research grants.

[Dan Hintz]

Yeppers... chaos theory just says given an infinite number of variables and/or infinite number of values chosen at random, the chances of two items being identical are increasingly small. It doesn't say never, just that the chances approach zero.

Crystallized ice does not have an infinite number of parameters, and the values for those parameters are somewhat finite. It can only grow in temps below 32F and some lower limit (don't know what it is, but this is Earth, so well above absolute zero ;)), nucleation site needs to be within a reasonable size limit, finite number of atoms per crystal size, yadda yadda yadda.

It's highly likely that a crystal has been created identical to another at some point within the timespan of the Earth... but finding it is like a needle in a haystack. Which brings us to a whole other search...

[Jim Rimmer]

Yeppers... chaos theory just says given an infinite number of variables and/or infinite number of values chosen at random, the chances of two items being identical are increasingly small. It doesn't say never, just that the chances approach zero.

Crystallized ice does not have an infinite number of parameters, and the values for those parameters are somewhat finite. It can only grow in temps below 32F and some lower limit (don't know what it is, but this is Earth, so well above absolute zero ;)), nucleation site needs to be within a reasonable size limit, finite number of atoms per crystal size, yadda yadda yadda.

It's highly likely that a crystal has been created identical to another at some point within the timespan of the Earth... but finding it is like a needle in a haystack. Which brings us to a whole other search...

Allow me to try to translate what Dan said: If an infinite number of rednecks riding in the back of an infinite number of pick up trucks fire their shotguns at an infinite number of highway signs, it is likely they will eventually spell out the works of Shakespeare in Braille. :D

[Moses Yoder]

Yeppers... chaos theory just says given an infinite number of variables and/or infinite number of values chosen at random, the chances of two items being identical are increasingly small. It doesn't say never, just that the chances approach zero.

Crystallized ice does not have an infinite number of parameters, and the values for those parameters are somewhat finite. It can only grow in temps below 32F and some lower limit (don't know what it is, but this is Earth, so well above absolute zero ;)), nucleation site needs to be within a reasonable size limit, finite number of atoms per crystal size, yadda yadda yadda.

It's highly likely that a crystal has been created identical to another at some point within the timespan of the Earth... but finding it is like a needle in a haystack. Which brings us to a whole other search...

While I agree with your theory in principle, the fact is we will never even come close to having an infinite number of snowflakes fall to the earth in it's history.

[Belinda Barfield]

Allow me to try to translate what Dan said: If an infinite number of rednecks riding in the back of an infinite number of pick up trucks fire their shotguns at an infinite number of highway signs, it is likely they will eventually spell out the works of Shakespeare in Braille. :D

You left out "drunk" Jim. Trust me, I know an infinite number of rednecks and we've never been able to do this sober.

[Wil Limanen]

You left out "drunk" Jim. Trust me, I know an infinite number of rednecks and we've never been able to do this sober.

You mean infinite number of beers.

Wil

[John Coloccia]

It's highly likely that a crystal has been created identical to another at some point within the timespan of the Earth... but finding it is like a needle in a haystack. Which brings us to a whole other search...

Actually, for snowflake sized crystals I believe the chances are still vanishingly small even given the entire age of the Universe as a backdrop. It's not zero, but only just.

[Dan Hintz]

Crystallized ice does not have an infinite number of parameters, and the values for those parameters are somewhat finite.


While I agree with your theory in principle, the fact is we will never even come close to having an infinite number of snowflakes fall to the earth in it's history.

As I said...

[Jeff Bratt]

Depends on your definition of snowflake and alike :p
http://www.its.caltech.edu/~atomic/snowcrystals/alike/alike.htm (http://www.its.caltech.edu/%7Eatomic/snowcrystals/alike/alike.htm)



It's highly likely that a crystal has been created identical to another at some point within the timespan of the Earth... but finding it is like a needle in a haystack. Which brings us to a whole other search...

Even with just a few parameters, it is highly UN-likely that two snowflakes have ever been - or ever will be - exactly the same. However, examining all of them will never happen (think of all the ones we've missed!), but that doesn't make the assertion any less true.

Really big numbers are beyond common sense, our intuition fails us at such scales. And infinities (yes, there's more than one) are even further "out there", they are pure mathematical concepts that don't really exist.