Best Honing Guide?

[Mike Holbrook]

I have been fighting the idea of a guide. I found that the guide arm on my Tormek tended to move/bend enough to throw the whole thing off. The old Veritas guide I have has no way to register the side of a chisel or plane blade against something to make sure it is straight. I have been trying to do it all by hand, but I think a guide might help.

The Veritas MKII Honing Guide is obviously much easier to set a chisel or plane blade up in and the camber roller looks like it might enable me to get the consistent cambers I want. Is this the best answer for consistent results? I did some searching and found a positive comment about cambering with it from Derek Cohen which is about all the encouragement I need, but the post was on the MKII. Is there something better? Ok other than raw skill and persistence. I should add I have very good stones from Tools From Japan- 120, 700, 3000, 6000, 10000.

[Curt Putnam]

IMO, the MKII is the best you are going to do. Don't forget the advantage of the skew registration jig, too.

[Zach England]

MKII is great for plane irons, but not so great for chisels. It does not properly clamp narrow-ish chisels. I use the good old "eclipse" for chisels, but I have modified at per the instructions here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ojzzCXq5ook

[Archie England]

I recommend you make the transition to freehand! I'm using the Veritas mkii far less now. I did this because my quality stones from TFJ made this easier to accomplish. Yes, I still use my Tormek to set difficult bevels; but even this need is dimishing!

[Zach England]

Long lost brothers?

[Russ Massery]

I use my Veritas MKII Honing Guide for plane iron as well as chisels all the way down to 1/8". With the narrow chisel or with any chisel for that matter. You must clamp down evenly. Tightening the clamp screws a little on each side at a time. I really like the guide I highly recommend it.

[Mike Holbrook]

I have been a little overwhelmed with sharpening chores, four new planes with a bunch of left over 1/4" 01 plane blades from Steve Knight's retirement. Unfortunately I think most of the blades I got from Steve are going to be too short for the planes I built, especially after grinding their very rough edges out.. I have a couple Veritas plane blades I am still trying to fix that got bad bevels on my Tormek jig. I have been trying to redo bevels on my 2" beltsander and or my coarser stones but it still is slow work. The Tormek hollow ground bevels are hard to rework using flat stones or a beltsander as the edges have to come down before even getting back to square one.

Archie I think it is easier in one respect to do this work freehand as it is easier to adjust as I go. On the other hand, it is a bunch of grinding to do by hand. I may just buy a few new plane blades for the new planes I made (new post I guess). I can't actually finish those planes until I have blades to fit wedges and adjustable mouths to. I need those planes for projects. I think my thoughts ran along the line of hoping a guide would at least assure I get something that works. The Tormek, so far, has just made things worse when I try to grind bevels on it. I have no jig for my beltsander. I have been trying to figure out if the Veritas grinding jig or some other rest would help with it. It is hard to feel what a flexing belt is doing to the bevel, although it surely does the opposite of the Tormek.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Not having used a Tormek, I can't comment, but the one I looked at seemed sturdy enough - are you "letting the tool do the work" or applying pressure to try and make it go faster?

I'd see if you could borrow or use a dry grinder - it would make a setting the initial bevel a quick job. If I were closer you, I would have gladly offered mine or my services.

[Archie England]

Not having used a Tormek, I can't comment, but the one I looked at seemed sturdy enough - are you "letting the tool do the work" or applying pressure to try and make it go faster?

I'd see if you could borrow or use a dry grinder - it would make a setting the initial bevel a quick job. If I were closer you, I would have gladly offered mine or my services.

What about a slow speed grinder to do the heavy removal?

OTOH, I've bought the Sigma Power 120 and a King Deluxe 300 (before the Sig 400 or Gesshin 400 came out) to do heavy metal removing on blade backs. The 120 works very well on bevels and approximates the total set up and grinding time of my T2000. However, free hand grinding to specific degree is beyond my present skill set. But, the freedom of doing it by hand really helps maintain the wear on my stones. The Sig 120 is smallish so the Veritas jig won't work so well. The King 300 is not as fast as the Sigma power 120, but it's quite efficient, being far faster than the Shapton 120 or the Chosera 400 (which are about equal in speed, though the Cho finish is better). As we all know, the less metal edge on puts on a stone, the faster the stone cuts the metal (hence, why hollow grinding is so popular). The Sigma 120 is nearly the speed of grinding out the entire bevel as if it was hollow ground.

I didn't like my results from sandpaper (though I'll agree I did achieve some levels of sharpness), so going back to my scary sharp set up is not an option. Also, I've compared the speed and results of DMT 325 to my 300 and 400 waterstones (plus my coarse India and Ark. stones, too) and found (IMO) the waterstones to be faster, better prepped edges--with far superior scratch patterns. Did I mention how much faster the waterstones were?!

One last word here, and it's actually gleaned from my friend, Orlando--different blades (of even the same set) can actually sharpen differently on the same stones, causing us to search for that "better, other" stone to use. With waterstones, there's probably no single, best stone--just stones better at specific sharpening aspects.

2 cents worth, hopefully,

Archie
near NOLA

[Chris Vandiver]

I have been a little overwhelmed with sharpening chores, four new planes with a bunch of left over 1/4" 01 plane blades from Steve Knight's retirement. Unfortunately I think most of the blades I got from Steve are going to be too short for the planes I built, especially after grinding their very rough edges out.. I have a couple Veritas plane blades I am still trying to fix that got bad bevels on my Tormek jig. I have been trying to redo bevels on my 2" beltsander and or my coarser stones but it still is slow work. The Tormek hollow ground bevels are hard to rework using flat stones or a beltsander as the edges have to come down before even getting back to square one.

Archie I think it is easier in one respect to do this work freehand as it is easier to adjust as I go. On the other hand, it is a bunch of grinding to do by hand. I may just buy a few new plane blades for the new planes I made (new post I guess). I can't actually finish those planes until I have blades to fit wedges and adjustable mouths to. I need those planes for projects. I think my thoughts ran along the line of hoping a guide would at least assure I get something that works. The Tormek, so far, has just made things worse when I try to grind bevels on it. I have no jig for my beltsander. I have been trying to figure out if the Veritas grinding jig or some other rest would help with it. It is hard to feel what a flexing belt is doing to the bevel, although it surely does the opposite of the Tormek.


Mike, If I may, a word of advice:). Go to Lie Nielsen's website and find the link to their facebook page and check out their sharpening videos. Their method of preparing and sharpening edge tools is very easy for beggining woodworkers. Postive and predictable from this system. You could also try Highland Hardware and see if they offer a sharpening class.

It sounds to me like you may need to learn the basics of sharpening. No tool will just do the job for you, some skill is required. Get some sharpening knowledge(reading, videos, etc.)and then use that knowledge to gain the skill of sharpening. It is easy to create a certain bevel angle or an edge that is square to the blade or a flat back, as long as you have the skill to do so. Knowledge first, then practice makes perfect. Once you have the ability to easily create a sharp plane iron or chisel, your woodworking will take off.

By the way, do you own modern iron plane, like a Lie Nielsen or a Veritas? That option is a very good starting point(as long as you can create a sharp edge).

[Mike Holbrook]

I have the Sigma Power 120, and have been using it lately. I also have the big coarse Green King stone. My beltsander with Trizact and or Gator belts is much faster than the 120 or the Tormek, all I have to do is get good enough to make great bevels freehand with it or find/make some jig to position the blades. The Trizact and the Gator belts are very slow to heat up the steel. I am in the process of figuring out which beltsander belts to use before the Sigma 120 and Sigma Power 3F Carbon #700. Although the beltsander leaves a much smoother surface. Then I go to Sigma Power Select II 3000, 6000, 10000. Reading Stu's descriptions it looks like I might need a bridge stone to the Select II's, specifically the Sigma Power#400. Maybe I will ask Stu about that one.

Orlando was my stone consultant as well Archie. The 120 does leave a surface that needs something to prepare it for the Select II's and I'm not sure the 3F 700 is the right stone. It might be that I could go from the belts to a Select II #240 or the 3F #700.

I took a sharpening Class at Woodcraft. I own a Veritas LA Jack, LA Block, Record Jointer & Smoother & a Garret Wade Jack. I can sharpen a blade with a good bevel fine. My big problem is 1/4" plane blades with bevels beyond what I think most people ever see in terms of roughness. I can put an edge on a S30V or S35VN pocket knife,by hand, that will flick individual hairs off my arm, so I'm not totally incompetent ;-).

[Mike Holbrook]

The "Raw" plane blades I have been working:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/16891057@N05/6753289233/

Raw blade beside one that has been worked a good while on my sander:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/16891057@N05/6753285683/in/photostream/lightbox/

I think I am getting there, for hand work. Obviously these blades have concave as well as very rough bevels. I have an even dozen of those raw blades I am working, plus a couple Veritas A2 blades I got out of whack on the Tormeck quite a while back. I have multiple blades for the Veritas planes and I am just getting around to fixing the ones I screwed up.

This may be a "larger"problem though. These are the two longest blades I have for these planes:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/16891057@N05/6753523005/in/photostream/lightbox/

[Michael Ray Smith]

I have a Work Sharp 3000 that I use for chisels. For planes and spokeshaves and such, I have three guides -- an Eclipse style, a Richard Kell guide, and a Veritas guide. I also have the Veritas holder for very short blades (mostly spokeshaves). And I sometimes make my own jigs for unusual things such as the blades for Miller Falls no. 1 spokeshaves. Then, finally, I sometimes do things freehand. I also use different abrasives -- most often sandpaper on a granite plate, but some DMT products and Arkansas stones. Every now and then I use a belt sander, but I usually end up butchering things when I do, maybe because I don't have any sort of jig or tool rest. Of all the stuff I've read about sharpening tools, the best single piece of advice was, "Learn more than one way."

[Mike Holbrook]

I hear you Michael. I have King Stones, Sigma Power Stones, Tormeck, bench sander that takes 1 & 2" x 42" belts, granite stone with wet/dry paper. I have a collection of long Scythe blade stones and a myriad of diamond & ceramic stones & guides for knives. I have a steel plate that uses grit and an assortment of grits. I have two old sharpening guides too. I use many of them fairly regularly, so I think I have a variety of options that I am becoming practiced with. I have thought about getting a Work Sharp 3000, have read a good deal on them and looked at them several times at Highland Hardware/Woodworking. The beltsander is a much more versatile tool in my environment though so I stocked up on belts for it instead. The beltsander is better for grinding knives, mower blades, tools, wood parts... It gets lots of use. If I could just figure out a better tool rest for it.

MY concept for using the Veritas MKII is a little different..
It seems to me that once one starts to get a new bevel established it is fairly easy to keep sharpening at that angle. The hardest part for me when trying to establish a new bevel by hand is getting that initial angle started correctly. I was thinking the Veritas MK II might help me get the correct bevel started, then I might switch back to freehand work to do the major lifting, maybe going back to the MK II to check progress & at the end to do a micro bevel and or camber. Sort of a freehand work marker, checker and corrector. Does anyone else use this tool in that way?

[Tony Zaffuto]

Why don't you take a look at LV's Veritas grinding jig and rest, to see if you could adapt it to the belt sander?

[Prashun Patel]

I have an MKII and it's great. It excels at holding narrow chisels and at holding odd-shaped blades - like the tapered width block plane blades from LV. There are three different 'height' settings too, which makes it possible to hold very short blades like those for spokeshaves and still achieve a variety of bevel angles.

The MKII also has a little knob that also changes the eccentricity of the roller slightly which makes it possible to put 2ndary bevels on a blade without unclamping.

If you want something that is no-brainer repeatable and accurate, then this is a good guide.

If you want to ultimately learn to free-hand sharpen, then you'd probably do better to skip the training wheels. Further, free-hand sharpeners usually recommend hollow grinding b4 honing, which the MKII won't help you with, since it only works on a flat surface.

[Derek Cohen]

I have been a little overwhelmed with sharpening chores, four new planes with a bunch of left over 1/4" 01 plane blades from Steve Knight's retirement. Unfortunately I think most of the blades I got from Steve are going to be too short for the planes I built, especially after grinding their very rough edges out.. I have a couple Veritas plane blades I am still trying to fix that got bad bevels on my Tormek jig. I have been trying to redo bevels on my 2" beltsander and or my coarser stones but it still is slow work. The Tormek hollow ground bevels are hard to rework using flat stones or a beltsander as the edges have to come down before even getting back to square one.

Archie I think it is easier in one respect to do this work freehand as it is easier to adjust as I go. On the other hand, it is a bunch of grinding to do by hand. I may just buy a few new plane blades for the new planes I made (new post I guess). I can't actually finish those planes until I have blades to fit wedges and adjustable mouths to. I need those planes for projects. I think my thoughts ran along the line of hoping a guide would at least assure I get something that works. The Tormek, so far, has just made things worse when I try to grind bevels on it. I have no jig for my beltsander. I have been trying to figure out if the Veritas grinding jig or some other rest would help with it. It is hard to feel what a flexing belt is doing to the bevel, although it surely does the opposite of the Tormek.

Mike, I built two grinding jigs for the beltsander ..

http://inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/BeltSanderGrinderMkI.html

http://inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/BeltSanderBladeGrinderMK%20II.html

The basics for preparing a blade are: (1) flatten the back (2) polish the back edge of the bevel (3) hollow grind the primary bevel, and (4) hone the edge.

The belt sander creates a flat primary bevel, which then requires a secondary bevel (via a honing guide). A Tormek or dry grinder creates a hollow grind, which may either be honed on a honing guide or freehand.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Matthews]

I'm not a fan of things in my shop that are noisy, messy and difficult to control - that's why my five-year old can't come downstairs.

The jigs used with an inverted power sander are clever, but they take off material quickly. This, I have found is a liability in sharpening.
I layout sandpaper on a flat substrate for the purposes of grinding the primary bevel. I use the Kell guides, which firmly hold even the stubbiest plane blades.

A few passes with this method establishes the primary bevel. It doesn't generate much heat, and I can stop before getting too far ahead of myself.

I use a black magic marker to illustrate my progress. It's easy to see where you're removing steel with some sort of dye.
You can certainly polish the primary bevel, but I don't see any performance advantage.

I move the guide closer to the the cutting edge, raising the angle of intersection to form the secondary bevel on stones.
I use Shaptons, but any stone that's flat will do. Prior to honing, I take another swipe with a magic marker to make my progress clear.

This method is really clear for those of us with failing eyesight or a dimly lit shop. The marker line is abraded in the process.
I like a secondary bevel about 1/32 or an inch wide, but I rarely manage that - they're almost always "thicker".

Have a look at the method mentioned above, as shown by Deneb Puchalski at Lie Nielsen.
I can get the iron in my Gordon jack plane cleaned up in less than five minutes, if there's still a primary bevel.

Use David Charlesworth's "ruler trick" to flatten the back just aft of the cutting edge - there's no need for the entire back of a plane blade to be flat, it just needs to be sharp at the cutting edge.

Sandpaper to grind
A granite kitchen sink cut out to hold the sandpaper

The Kell guide
Shapton 1000
Shapton 8000

The guide makes your results reproducible, with minimum setup time.

jim
wpt, ma

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Mike - you mention difficulties getting the initial bevel set by hand - if these are bevel down planes, all I worry about is:

a) is the bevel low enough to clear the sole - a 45+ degree bevel in a 45 degree bedded bevel down plane isn't going to work, as the back of the bevel will hit the wood before the cutting edge. As long as the angle is reasonably less than the bedding angle, and I can repeatedly re-hone the blade without changing the bevel angle drastically, it's fine.

b) is the bevel not too shallow - once, years ago I honed one of my plane blades with something like a 20 degree bevel - this edge didn't hold up very well if it hit a hard spot.

Outside of those two things, I'm good. I don't care too much if the blade is 36 degrees instead of 35, or 32 instead of 30 or whatever. Obviously, if these are bevel up planes, that changes everything, as the bevel angle effects the cutting angle.

I assume you know this, but I thought I'd mention it. I really overthought bevel angles for a long while.

I don't even worry too much about being perfectly square anymore if the blade is square enough to be within the range of adjustment of the plane, either with the lateral adjuster or by installing the chipbreaker at a slight skew. Of course, if your plane's bedding area is a little tighter, you my need to be more precise at being square, as there may be less room for lateral adjustment.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

As far as the length of blades in the planes - it'd be easier to tell from the side, but they don't look too terribly short for the plane - I'd be tempted to just shorten the wedges a little bit. Some krenov-style planes have sort of a "scooped" section in the middle where the bed is, allowing a short blade to project more.

If you look at images in Finck's book, several of the planes have blades that project fairly little from the plane body. The other trick you'll see is that the back of the wedge is relieved a little bit, so once it leaves the body, it sort of curves away from the blade a bit, allowing you to get the adjusting hammer at both the blade and wedge independently.

[Andrew Joiner]

I'm into simple and effective. I call it frugal, my wife calls it cheap. I got this from Derek's site I think it's called Brent's jig.http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/The 10 Cent Sharpening System.html

Thanks Derek!

I built a shelf level with my sanding belts face. I have my Arkansas stones set flush to the shelf as well.
Same jig setting for sander and stones, but on the stones I clip a brass shim to the jigs base to lift it for a microbevel. I use the same jig for plane irons and chisels.

I didn't like the idea of rolling a metal roller on my stones and I you can't roll on a running belt sander. This solved all my problems.
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/The 10 Cent Sharpening System_html_m3eaaf5aa.gif

[Jared McMahon]

I have the Veritas MKII and one of the Kell side-clamp guides. The Veritas is great for easily setting a precise angle and providing excellent support but I've had things slip or skew slightly during sharpening. For some tools the Kell is excellent. I mostly use rehabbed antique tools so it's very useful for me to be able to dial in an arbitrary bevel angle to establish a sane primary bevel on a tool that could be dull, wonky, etc.

With all that said, if I just want to refresh the edge on a tool where I've firmly established a primary bevel, it's easy enough to do that free-hand where I don't even bother fussing with a guide most of the time. The take-away is, get all three; the Veritas, a side-clamper, and a good pair of hands.

[Dale Cruea]

I have both LN honing guides. I like both very well. The MK II is a little better because it will set the tool up the same every time.
The older guide holds better. As stated in a post above you must watch to get the bar parallel to get it to hold well.

[Christian Castillo]

Mike, that's exactly how I use it, like training wheels.

[Mike Holbrook]

Wow, some great information guys. I have spent some time thinking about & digesting it.

Derek thanks for that info on guides for beltsander/grinders, mine is only 2" but works similarly to yours, even has the disc on the side, although my disc does have a table. Your design has me thinking about the rest on my Tormeck. I am thinking I may try to rig something up so I can use the Tormeck rest and all it's attachments over the beltsander.

Jim, the specialty belts I mentioned above that I use on my beltsander are available in a wide range of grits, particularly much finer grits. These belts last very well and do not heat up the metal. These belts are used by custom knife makers for very delicate work which is how I found them. Lee Valley actually sells them now or you can find them at knife making supply shops. These belts have opened up a whole new realm of "grinding: for me. These belts start to rival buffing wheels or leather beltsander belts and buffing compounds.

Joshua I hear you regarding obsession with exact bevel angles. I think I was starting to take this philosophy to a place too far, although I agree with the idea. I have decided to keep two groups of chisels, one with steeper bevels for whacking and the other set for paring, which will require more precise work. I also would like to use some micro/secondary bevels and more subtle cambers. The wood planes I have made are of the type that you mention with tight side to side tolerances and movable mouths which as you say are less tolerant of less precise bevels. The Blum Tools wooden plane I have uses very thin specially made blades that require more precise sharpening, although the plane came with a jig for sharpening them. So I think I have a significant quantity of specific tools that require more precise sharpening.

Andrew simple is often good or even better. I like your concept although I am not sure I exactly understand it yet. My Blum Tools (blumtool) fore plane came with a jig especially set up to sharpen the much smaller blades it uses. Blum makes his sharpening jigs out of pieces of UHMW plastic.. He also makes an ingenious The Sharpening Box that holds the chisel or plane blade in place allowing the sharpener to move the stone over the tool. The box has a precise mechanism for setting the tools bevel. He apparently even holds a patent for this rig. He even makes simple plastic jigs specifically for honing his blades at specific angles. If you have not seen his unique sharpening tools you might check them out. If I don't get a Veritas MK II I may buy Garry's sharpening box. It is not cheap but can eliminates the need for angle jigs, bevel jigs, ponds, stone holders....A great benefit of this system is the flatness of the stone is less critical as the whole stone can be moved over the tool, also I think, keeping the stone flatter.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Have you considered something as simple as the guide block used by Rob Cosman? Piece of wood cut at an angle with magnets to hold the blade in place. It helps you set the angle. Simple..... Not sure how that would work, but you could probably create something to try very inexpensively. Andrew Joiner might be proud (but his wife will call you cheap)...

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Mike

Since you are using the Blum planes, have a look on my website .... http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/Blumplanereview-SmootherandForePlanes.html

This is a review of the smooth and fore plane. In it I developed a different way to hone the small blades, one that works extremely well and takes much less effort than Gary's ideas (with respect to Gary).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tri Hoang]

The most versatile one is probably the eclipse-style honing guide...No honing guide would automatically give you a nice camber profile without a proper technique. I own a variety of guides but use the eclipse-style guide more often because it's much faster to set up than most. For smaller items, profiled tools, skew, gouges...free hand is probably the best.

For establishing the initial bevel. I suggest a grinder with a sturdy tool rest. Nothing beat the efficiency of the grinder at this stage.

Frank Klauz was once asked what angle to sharpen a chisel at and his answer was sharp.

[Andrew Joiner]

Andrew simple is often good or even better. I like your concept although I am not sure I exactly understand it yet. My Blum Tools (blumtool) fore plane came with a jig especially set up to sharpen the much smaller blades it uses. Blum makes his sharpening jigs out of pieces of UHMW plastic.. He also makes an ingenious The Sharpening Box that holds the chisel or plane blade in place allowing the sharpener to move the stone over the tool. The box has a precise mechanism for setting the tools bevel. He apparently even holds a patent for this rig. He even makes simple plastic jigs specifically for honing his blades at specific angles. If you have not seen his unique sharpening tools you might check them out. If I don't get a Veritas MK II I may buy Garry's sharpening box. It is not cheap but can eliminates the need for angle jigs, bevel jigs, ponds, stone holders....A great benefit of this system is the flatness of the stone is less critical as the whole stone can be moved over the tool, also I think, keeping the stone flatter.


Mike, The wood block guide slides next to the long edge of the stones or sanding belt abrasive surface. You slide and hone it sideways along the width of the blade. The wood block slides on a Formica or MDF platform that's level with the abrasives faces. If you slide/hone it front to back like a rolling honing guide on the abrasive the wood or UHMW would wear off and loads the stone.

Any slippery solid flat surface would work for this sharpening station platform. I set mine on my workbench, it's heavy so it won't move. I use a Formica covered Mdf slab about 2"x3' built up to about 6" thick at the edges. It's got my 2 stones and my 3"x21" beltsander set ( inlaid) flush into it. Each stone and the beltsander has room to the side of it for the wood block to ride on as you push down and hone (or grind)

This is from Derek's site again. I call it the sharpening station platform,he calls it the honing board. I have stones and beltsander set in flush, he shows 600 grit paper glued on ,but it's the same idea.

The honing board
What we have here is 600 grit W&D contact glued to the MDF. Later I realized that a better system would be to simply have two clamps (using bolts and butterfly nuts) so that sandpaper strips could be changed out.
The far end is a section with Veritas green rouge – just “scribble” this on the MDF.In between the two, the MDF surface is given a coat of wax to reduce friction.



http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/The 10 Cent Sharpening System_html_1c8b3238.gif

[Mike Holbrook]

Well I certainly don't lack options now.

Derek I believe I read what you wrote about Blum's Planes & the sharpener you made before I bought my plane. I think you have added more information though so I have more homework.

Andrew looks like you found a way to do the work some use a granite or glass surface for without having to purchase or find the specialized glass or stone. Plus the angle/bevel jig saves having to have a manufactured guide. Congrats to you and Derek for kicking it down a notch price wise.

I would prefer to find better ways to use some of what I have now vs adding more things to keep up with.

[Bill White]

I have the guide that Zach shows. Have not modified as he suggests, but that will be next on the agenda. I have had good results with the guide as is-even cambers. Then again, I'm a feller that takes too much time and effort on sharpening.
Bill