Straight edge question

[Jerome Hanby]

I'm going to add a straight edge to my arsenal. A big majority of its use will be setting up and aligning equipment, table saw wings, jointer tables, etc... Is 36" (that ball park anyway) long enough to take care of me or am I going to constantly be kicking myself because I didn't get a longer one? I'm looking at the 36" model from Woodpeckers fro a couple of very good reasons, one it's red!, another I can order it from Tom and he has definitely earned any business I can throw his way.

I'm also looking at ordering a t-square and like the Woodpecker versions for the same reasons <g>. I'm tempted to go with the 32" model, I've been building cabinets that are about 24" deep and that would get me all the way across them, but is that going to be too long to use comfortably the rest of the time? Maybe that "rest of the time" thinking is a fallacy, and the rest of the time I'd use a combo-square. But, I've got that flexible Incra t-square like gizmo in the 18" model and it seems like it's alway long enough to be awkward or not long enough to get where I need to go, I've often though about getting the short version of it.

Thanks in advance for the opinions!

[James White]

I have a 36" one from Lee Valley. I find that I sometimes I wish it where a bit longer. But other times when I am glad that it is not. However I really wish that I had spent the extra on the steal version. I take good care of my strait edge. Keep it in a sleeve. But after just a few years of use. It has small dings on it's edges that I have no idea how they got there. I have had to deburr these dings as to not have them hold the strait edge up off the surface that I was trying to check. In my opinion aluminum is just not durable enough for a "user".

James

[Van Huskey]

I am a fan of a roughly 4' version for some functions, mainly the jointer, for most other uses a 36" is fine or actually better. Aluminum is OK but you have to be careful with it. I have a 50" aluminum one I use rarely and a 24" steel one I use quite a bit.

I find T squares longer then 24" to be awkward most of the time but if you anticipate using a longer one a lot it may be worth it. If money were no object I would still like to have a shorter one for use most of the time.

[Mort Stevens]

I have a series of levels, 10", 24", 36", 48", 72" (might be another size in there too... maybe 60"?) I don't know the brand, but I've had them forever and they provide me with sufficient accuracy for everything I have ever built or set up... and they also function as a level! The way I see it, unless you're working with metal and must maintain a 0.003" accuracy over a couple of feet, I see no reason why you need a fancy purpose straight edge. Just my 2-cents! ;)

FYI years ago I had access to a grinding machining and made an air-bearing surface out of two pieces of steel stock... as I was playing, er, I mean demonstrating the air bearing qualities one piece slid off the desk and onto a wood floor... they never slid the same way again, even after lapping the surfaces they never slid with that same wet ice on wet ice that they once did.

I would hate to have a precision straight edge for everyday shop use only to fall on the floor a couple of times to be totally trashed.

[Jerome Hanby]

Money is always an object with me. I try to think through what my time is worth to me, so I may be able to justify buying a couple of t-squares. Looking at LV, there isn't a huge price difference between the Steel and Aluminum straight edges, but the longest steel one is 36"...

[Jim Barrett]

Take a look here:
http://www.tools4flooring.com/straight-edges.html

Jim

[glenn bradley]

I also went with the Lee Valley 36" steel version. Long enough for most everything without being too long for a lot of things. A longer one would be nice for my jointer but, I aligned it once during assembly and checked it when I rotated the inserts; still good. For me it would be nice to have a longer one but, not only a longer one.

[Brian Tymchak]

I have 2, one 24" steel (from Woodcraft) and one 48" aluminum (borg generic brand). The 48" aluminum straight-edge is part of a 96" saw guide. Seems like one short and one long does about everything I need. Although occasionally I use a 12" steel ruler too in tight spots. I use the 48" aluminum edge to set infeed-outfeed roller stands for jointer, table saw, planer when I run longer pieces. The 24" comes in handy for tasks like checking TDC and leveling knives on the jointer, and just a million other things it seems. I wish the 24" was a little thicker to better stand on edge on its own. I didn't think of that when I bought it. The 48" has a formed edge wide enough to stand up on it's own.

[Jerome Hanby]

I've got "straight" edges, a 72" rule from the borg and the rails on my portable panel saw, I just don't know how straight they really are. I've got an old jointer and Unisaw that I'm tuning up, An old Shopsmith that could stand a through cleaning and tuneup, my Craftsman contractor saw that could probably stand some tweaking, and a few shop made projects on my to-do list including a drum sander and an 8" jointer. I'm thinking having a decent reference tool would make my life easier. I've read through some information for making your own straight edge using the three piece method. It looks interesting and right in line with what I like to do, but I'd want a real "straight edge" to verify my work <g>.

I wonder how good a reference those phenolic straight edges would be? They seem to be aimed at the glass cutting world and they seem less expensive compared to the anodized aluminum and steel tools...

[Bill White]

Jerome, I hadn't thought about the phenolic jobbies. Good idea. Go to the local glass guy and check 'em out. Let us know what you find out.
Bill

[Tom Walz]

Mr Hanby,

Thank you for the mention.

Pick one and we will send it to you, no obligation.

Phenolic is an excellent material but I would be a bit more concerned about edge deformation than with steel. This is simply because of the basic material properties.

I guess it would depend on how accurate you want it. In the saw world 0.001" is pretty important on a straight edge. When you lay a straight edge across a saw blade you want to find bumps or depresssions well under 0.001".

Whether this level of accuracy is important over a four foot table is a matter of opinion.

Not sure if I ever mentioned this but the Number One Rule in tool design and sales is that "A good tool is exactly what the customer says it is." Of course we think of our customers as being extremely attractive and incredibly intelligent as well as being beloved by animals and small children.

Tom Walz
Carbide Processors

[Jerome Hanby]

Tom, that's incredibly generous. I've already talked myself into the 36" straight edge so I guess that's the one I pick. Payday is this Friday and I'll be getting my tool allowance <g>, so be expecting an order for the large and small t-squares. You may not be the best guy on SMC, but you'll never prove that by me!

I'll PM you my pertinent info.

Thanks again!


Mr Hanby,

Thank you for the mention.

Pick one and we will send it to you, no obligation.

Phenolic is an excellent material but I would be a bit more concerned about edge deformation than with steel. This is simply because of the basic material properties.

I guess it would depend on how accurate you want it. In the saw world 0.001" is pretty important on a straight edge. When you lay a straight edge across a saw blade you want to find bumps or depresssions well under 0.001".

Whether this level of accuracy is important over a four foot table is a matter of opinion.

Not sure if I ever mentioned this but the Number One Rule in tool design and sales is that "A good tool is exactly what the customer says it is." Of course we think of our customers as being extremely attractive and incredibly intelligent as well as being beloved by animals and small children.

Tom Walz
Carbide Processors

[Van Huskey]

Sorry for a thread jack but I want to point out to anyone reading this thread that is unaware of Tom and Carbide Processors http://www.carbideprocessors.com/ is they are a "Friend of the Creek" and are an all around excellent company. IMHO opinion they deserve all the business we can give them.

[Jerome Hanby]

Sorry for a thread jack but I want to point out to anyone reading this thread that is unaware of Tom and Carbide Processors http://www.carbideprocessors.com/ is they are a "Friend of the Creek" and are an all around excellent company. IMHO opinion they deserve all the business we can give them.

I'll second that. Tom is always generous with his knowledge and his merchandise!

[Jerrimy Snook]

I'll third that! We have been a customer of Tom's for several decades. Tom is generous with information, always trying to improve the products and services he offers and helping us to improve also. Thank you Tom, Emily, Renee and Leslie for all the info, humor, superior products, and hard work.

Jerrimy

[Tom Walz]

Thank you all for the kind words.

I appreciate them but they are more than a bit embarrassing particularly since woodpeckers wants to donate the straight edge.

I sort of feel unfairly singled out since many of you also do a great deal to make the world a better place. In my estimation, many of you do a great deal more than I ever could. I hope this is not out of line, but it seems to me that a great number of you under-appreciate the good you do by your participation here. There is a huge amount of knowledge freely shared here. What is more is that it is a great portion of it seems to be very well written, deeply thought out and presented in a very dignified, well mannered way.

Tom

[hank dekeyser]

plus one on using a level - They're tough and durable, don't bend (easily) and you probably already have at least one. I dont understand why anyone would "need" to have a "good" straight edge for woodworking if you have a good quality level on hand. I have a corral of Stabila"s and a handful of the aluminum I-beam style. Aside from setting up my endmill, I have yet to have the "need" for anything else. A good level and a set of feeler gauges is all I ever use. For a T-square I have a sheetrock square I modified that is every bit as accurate as anything you can buy -period- Pretty sweet offer on the freebie , cant pass that up. as usual -my 2 cents

[Jerome Hanby]

I've got a 4' Stanley fatmax level. It has "machined" edges. maybe I'm just a snob, but I can't imagine that it's as perfectly flat as a quality straight edge. If I'm checking the edge of a board or the face of a piece of plywood, then no worries on my part using the level. But in this case, I'm looking for something to setup shop equipment.

The T-Squares are really more of a want than a need. They look cool, have "Incra" style holes to fit mechanical pencil tips for drawing lines, and they are red! My wife bought me a drywall square for Christmas one year. I finally remembered it, found it, and wouldn't you know the darn thing isn't quite long (deep?) enough to reach across a four foot sheet of plywood! That seems pretty stupid to me, seems like that's the whole reason for having the thing! I suspect that there are other models/brands out there that are a bit longer. I'm thinking 50" would be about perfect. That would cover the entire width of a sheet of MDF with a little to spare.

[Gary Kman]

I was picking up some metal at a metal fab shop and asked just how straight their 10' shear cut. Shop foreman said really straight for strips at least 3" wide. He sheared me a piece of 12 ga 3" wide and about 7' long. I drilled a hole in one end to hang it up and shot a coat of urethane on it the next time I was spraying and have an excellent strait edge for a few bucks to add to my 24" and 48" store boughts.

[Jerome Hanby]

If that were a little thicker it's stand up by itself no problem. Sounds like a good solution.

[Rick Moyer]

I was picking up some metal at a metal fab shop and asked just how straight their 10' shear cut. Shop foreman said really straight for strips at least 3" wide. He sheared me a piece of 12 ga 3" wide and about 7' long. I drilled a hole in one end to hang it up and shot a coat of urethane on it the next time I was spraying and have an excellent strait edge for a few bucks to add to my 24" and 48" store boughts.
But what does "really straight" REALLY mean? May or may not be within whatever tollerance you expect. I think that's the point of these straight edges, a reference.

On another note, I may be totally wrong here and I don't wish to speak for Tom Walz, but I took his statement of "pick one and we will send it to you. No obligation." to mean 'we'll send you whatever you want and you can try it out, pay for it if you like it or send it back'. maybe it WAS offered as a freebie but I didn't take it that way, as some of you did.

[Van Huskey]

But what does "really straight" REALLY mean? May or may not be within whatever tollerance you expect. I think that's the point of these straight edges, a reference.

On another note, I may be totally wrong here and I don't wish to speak for Tom Walz, but I took his statement of "pick one and we will send it to you. No obligation." to mean 'we'll send you whatever you want and you can try it out, pay for it if you like it or send it back'. maybe it WAS offered as a freebie but I didn't take it that way, as some of you did.


I thought the same thing until I read Tom's last post and the word "donate".

[Mort Stevens]

I've got a 4' Stanley fatmax level. It has "machined" edges. maybe I'm just a snob, but I can't imagine that it's as perfectly flat as a quality straight edge.

A quick test; put it on a flat surface and draw a line end to end, then flip it end for end and draw a second line with a hairs separation between them- if the two lines are parallel then you can be assured that it's reasonably straight.

[Guy Belleman]

I have several straight edges, a couple in the tool box drawer and several hanging on the wall. For what I do, it seems that I most often use the 24". I just don't use the 32", 48" and 6" that often, not that they are useful when needed.

[Gary Kman]

But what does "really straight" REALLY mean? May or may not be within whatever tollerance you expect. I think that's the point of these straight edges, a reference.



Easy to compare edge to edge with the 4' (However straight they made it). It's easily straight within the width of the narrowest pencil line I can draw or I wouldn't call it a straight edge. What kind of tolerance do we need working with a material that is guaranteed to change dimensions with a slight change in humidity overnight? At the other end of the scale a visible movement in the bubble in my machinist level indicates a change in angle of about 3/8" in a mile. I sure don't want to waste my time trying to use it woodworking. Precision needs to match the work. More is not better.

[James White]

I thought the op wanted the strait edge for setting up and tuning machines. Tuning machines and woodworking are two different things. So If you use a strait edge of unknown straightness (a level) and are trying to tune your jointer. Then for some reason you are not getting things to work properly. You need to ask yourself. Is there something wrong with the machine? Is it me? Maybe my straightedge is off? With a known straightedge you eliminate one possibility.

Back to woodworking. How much snipe is acceptable .005". Then you join those two edges and now you have a .010" gap. That is visible. Possibly can lead to a failed glue joint. How about a miter. How many thousands gap is acceptable? A table saw fence .002" out of parallel toward the blade. Leads to burnt wood and increased chance of a kick back. Yes wood moves. But that doesn't mean that you can have a tolerance equal to the amount that wood moves. Having precision tools only allows you to get to those tolerances easier. They are not needed. You can do it the old way of trial and error. Or you can use modern tools to get there that much faster and eliminate variables.

James

[ian maybury]

I'm only getting into machine set up now, but have a feeling that a long 'precision' straight edge is a contradiction in terms - that unless it's got a very large section a long edge is going to flex so much as to make talk of a few thou straightness fairly irrelevant. Thermal and manufacturing caused stresses may play a part too.

There's maybe differences between needing a straight(ish) edge for marking out (accuracy to the thickness of a pencil line), and the sort of precision item one might use for checking machine tables, alignments and the like. (accuracy to maybe a thou) A precision level can be useful too.

I bought a shortish steel precision straight edge from Woodpeckers a few years ago which i use for machines, and a long aluminium spirit level which gets used for marking out along with a couple of Festool saw rails and a 10ft length of straight hardwood which i've had for years.

The steel straight edge could probably be a bit longer, but the thinking is that it covers most of the average machine table, and that longer surfaces can be handled by packing one or more ends until it's level (i've used brass shim stock) and measuring the gap underneath with feeler gauges, and then bridging on by another 24in or as required. The level can be useful to check for sagging in e.g. the long level in situations where that may happen.

I sometimes pull a fine line to confirm a straight line when marking out long cuts on sheet material....

ian

[Jerome Hanby]

While reading up on straight edges, I saw that the longer Starrett models have two points marked on them that must be supported to prevent sag from introducing inaccuracy, so the point about long and precision seems to be recognized by what I think it's safe to call the gold standard of precision. Buy have you seen that Woodpecker model? Man, it's pretty <g>

[ian maybury]

I've just had a look Jerome, very bling. Bear in mind though that there's a lot of different worlds where precision is concerned. High precision stuff used in toolmaking and the like gets incredibly precise and expensive - these guys do treated cast iron reference edges accurate to .0005in over the full 36in length. The Starret ground steel edges claim about .0002in per ft - pretty similar. Against that the Woodpecker items are aluminium and claim only .001/ft - five times less accurate and subject to wear - but fine for the purpose they are intended for.

Lee Valley against that do some nice heat treated and ground steel items of apparently very similar quality to the Starrett for pretty similar money to the Woodpeckers: http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?c=&p=56676&cat=1,240,45313

ian

[Jerome Hanby]

I'm not ruling out buying one of those steel edges from LV. If they had them longer than 36", I might have done that from the get go. For now, I'm going to check out what I've got coming and make any additional decisions from there. Realistically I need something straighter than my long yellow rule from the Borg but can't imagine I need anywhere Starrett levels of precision to setup my 5 or 6 decade old cast iron saw and jointer and other slightly newer gizmos...

[Jerome Hanby]

Received the Straight Edge from Tom at Carbide Processors. The fit and finish is beautiful. Has enough of an edge to stand up. Best part may be the case! It came packed very well and arrived with no damage at all!. I've got two matching T Squares ordered and expect them in the next few days, looking forward to playing with those. I think my machine setup accuracy just took a big leap forward. I've got a couple of shop machine projects on my list, 8" jointer and 24"+ drum sander, as well as an older Boice Crane 6" jointer and 40s vintage Unisaw to restore, so I believe these new tools are going to get a workout!

I know that functionality trumps appearance, but this straight edge is beautiful. I get a grin on my face every time I look at it! Nice when you get precision and good looks!

Thanks again Tom!

[Jerrimy Snook]

Jerome,

Congratulations on the new tool(s)!


Nice when you get precision and good looks!

Precision and good looks = Tom. Maybe we can get Tom to blush!

Jerrimy

[Rick Moyer]

Received the Straight Edge from Tom at Carbide Processors. The fit and finish is beautiful. Has enough of an edge to stand up. Best part may be the case! It came packed very well and arrived with no damage at all!. I've got two matching T Squares ordered and expect them in the next few days, looking forward to playing with those. I think my machine setup accuracy just took a big leap forward. I've got a couple of shop machine projects on my list, 8" jointer and 24"+ drum sander, as well as an older Boice Crane 6" jointer and 40s vintage Unisaw to restore, so I believe these new tools are going to get a workout!

I know that functionality trumps appearance, but this straight edge is beautiful. I get a grin on my face every time I look at it! Nice when you get precision and good looks!

Thanks again Tom!

Huh!? I can't seem to see the picture.;)

[Jerome Hanby]

Huh!? I can't seem to see the picture.;)

Funny you should say that. My wife found me a 16 MP camera on the daily deals at Walmart. It's supposed to show up at the store Today or Tomorrow. She picked me up an Eye-FI card at Best Buy today and I found Linux software to talk to it last night so I should have a camera for the shop that I'm not nervous about breaking (unlike my wife's camera <g>). If it works as advertised, the Eye-FI card will keep itself cleaned off by pusihing my pictures to my computer as soon as it gets in range (which should be all the time from the shop). Hopefully the T-Squares will be in pretty quick and I'll take a family portrait and post it here <g>.

[Brad Pearce]

Agreeing with one of the other responders, I have a 50" aluminum straight edge from Veritas and a 24" steel version from Woodcraft. The 50" is really important for aligning my jointer and basically gets used for that. The 24" gets used a lot for everything else. Both are necessary.

[Jerome Hanby]

Funny you should say that. My wife found me a 16 MP camera on the daily deals at Walmart. It's supposed to show up at the store Today or Tomorrow. She picked me up an Eye-FI card at Best Buy today and I found Linux software to talk to it last night so I should have a camera for the shop that I'm not nervous about breaking (unlike my wife's camera <g>). If it works as advertised, the Eye-FI card will keep itself cleaned off by pusihing my pictures to my computer as soon as it gets in range (which should be all the time from the shop). Hopefully the T-Squares will be in pretty quick and I'll take a family portrait and post it here <g>.

Okay, here is a picture taken with the 16 MP camera my wife grabbed me off of a Walmart super sale of some kind. She also got me an Eye-fi card. I got it configured, found a python based server that would run on Linux, and got the configuration worked out. I snapped the picture, walked into the same room as the computer, and the computer grabbed the picture automatically! Think I can configure the server to automatically run a program on each received picture. Once I work that out I'll have Imagemagik resize and compress the pictures to be SMC compatible!

These sure are pretty, can't wait to get into the shop with them!

222365

[Don Morris]

I went to a local machine shop and had one made 36" X 2" X 3/16" out of a heavy duty steel and it's accurate, heavy (durable) and my go-to when I want to test if a surface is flat. Cost about what the items mentioned above did as I remember. When I laid it on the TS, and Jointer I couldn't see any space under it. Try your local machine shop, if possible.

[Ed Edwards]

Take a look here:
http://www.tools4flooring.com/straight-edges.html

Jim

Thanks Jim, I'm going to get a 75 incher today
Ed