More bench vise discussion on newer vises

[Mike Holbrook]

I plan to call Len at Hovarter today about one of his vises. I have my copy of the Benchcfated Split-Top Roubo plans to work with, so I have an idea where I might can mount vises. If some have not seen the Hovarter it is like a twin screw quick release that runs on metal rods, not threaded. It looks like a regular twin screw except one can make it with a single "screw". The handle that normally would turn a screw works a cam that locks as well as firms the outside jaw against the work piece.

I have seen a few posts where people have recycled quick release vises on new benches by extending a new outer jaw block out toward the center of the bench. The section of the new jaw block that extends out past the quick release mechanism serves to hold wider pieces of wood for edge work, much as the inside side of a leg vise does. Since I will be making my outside jaw for the Hovarter vise, I intend to ask Len if there is any reason I can't make a little extra room for wide pieces on the side of my Hovarter's jaw. I had been planing to mount a leg vise on my Roubo, but if I can replace it with a Hovarter with the same ability I might use another type vise instead of the leg vise.

I am interested in having the quickest most versatile vise system I can. I discovered that Veritas is making two new, improved, quick release vises, one for front and one for tail mounting. I believe the front vise could actually be used as a tail or end vise too. I am thinking that a combination of one of the two Veritas vises with the Hovarter and a sliding deadman would give me a very versatile and fast vise system. The Veritas tail vise is fairly unique in that it is designed to move the entire outside edge of one corner of the bench in & out as opposed to simply moving a single dog around like many other tail or wagon vises. The feature of this tail vise that seems unique to me is there is space to addd several dog holes on both the top and side of the vise jaw/block, allowing it to clamp items either on the top or side of the bench. This vise started me wondering if the side clamping ability might be a way to handle cabinet door & drawer pieces for edge work that tend to be larger?

Actually I have seen drawings of Veritas face vises mounted on the end of a bench with a dog in the end of the vice jaw so it too can be used to clamp larger pieces to the side of the bench like the tail vise. This may appeal to me even more as a quick release vise on the end of my bench could serve several other functions as well. The Benchcrafted Split-Top Roubo plan has a 87" top, about 7' when I would like an 8' bench. A Hovarter or Veritas Quick Release "face vise" mounted on the end of the bench could extend the bench length another 12 inches or more, on an as needed basis. A longer vise on the end of the bench with dogs or a raised board could clamp large pieces to the top of the Roubo or simply serve as a movable work stop.

The idea of a quick release, single screw face vise which could clamp pieces to the side of the bench, combined with a full end width ( or close) quick release vise sounds like a very versatile combination to me. I might be able to accomplish all these goals with a big Hovater as the face vise and a Veritas Quick Release "face vise" mounted as the end vise. I might even prefer to have the Hovarter as the end vise as it opens wider and might be less in the way and more accessible there based on the way I plan to place the bench in my shop ( center of the room).

The main question is can I really replace a leg vise with a "face" vise with extended block? Hovarter makes a leg vise version of their vise but it looks a little complicated to mount and a big vise on the end of the bench, covering the whole leg seems like it might be in the way. The whole issue is made more interesting by the idea of placing a dog in the end of a full width, quick release end vise, giving this vise side clamping capability too.

[Mike Holbrook]

I talked to Len at Horvarter and he informs me that in order to clamp objects outside of the metal rods the vise moves on would require a balancing piece of wood within the jaws, which gets complicated. I called Lee Valley and the lady I talked to eventually got the idea of what I was trying to do with their new Quick Release Face Vise but she was concerned about using off set jaws in their vise at all. The Veritas instructions for the vise show a 12" wide mechanism that they typically use an 18" outer jaw with. The instructions say that up to 24" jaws can be used without going beyond the design of the vise. The Lady I talked to seemed to think this recommendation assumes that the 24" jaw would be roughly centered on the mechanism, a little offset to accommodate dog holes that do not get in the way of the mechanism in the jaw.

The question I had which she was not able to answer yet has to do with exactly how much I can extend the outer jaw past the mechanism, toward the inside of the bench, without straining the vise mechanism. Certainly if a 24" jaw is centered on the mechanism there is a distance of some 6-7 inches to either side of the mechanism. I plan to mount the vise on the left front edge, long side, of the bench. I am not concerned about additional clamping space on the left side of the vise mechanism, only the right side. I'm not sure if the safe distance of the jaws to the right of the vise changes if there is not a similar distance to the left of the mechanism? Does anyone out there understand the mechanical principals at work here well enough to comment?

[Gary Muto]

Mike,

Maybe a stupid idea but have you considered the Veritas twin screw vise for a face vise. it's not quick release but it is resistant to racking. it even has a provision to provide limited racking. I just invested in a couple and this may make me a little biased. No racking and up to 24" between the screws sold me... great price too for what you get. I've never used a quick release vise and don't have that as a hard requirement.

Best of Luck,
Gary

[Mike Holbrook]

Gary,
Yes, I looked at both the Veritas and Lie-Nielsen twin screw vises, chain vises. I like the Hovarter vise better as a vise for placing work between the "screws". The Hovarter runs on steel bars without threads and has the same capabilities as the chain vises plus a couple other features I like better. I am planing to place one of these vises on the end of my bench, which will give me an additional 12+ inches of bench top when it is extended. The Hovarter opens further than the chain vises.

I was planing to make a leg vise for the front of my bench, until I saw a few benches, including one Schwarz uses, which place quick release vises on the front of the bench with large chops that extended out past the quick release machanism. The extended chop provides clamping ability without anything below. Since I will have a big twin "screw", actually a single handle double bar Hovarter, I already have good ability to clamp tall wide objects. The front vise then would be holding mostly boards for edge planing, supported by the sliding deadman. It just occurred to me that a quick release vise would be faster, less in the way than a big leg vise. The idea of having two quick release vises is appealing to me, as both vises I use now are single screw face type vises that are a pain to adjust all the time.

But yes I am still thinking about the twin screw chain vises. My two main objections to the Veritas chain vise are: 1) the mechanism is added to the exterior of the outside chop making it stick out even further from the side of the bench 2) it relies on a relatively slow metal screw to adjust the jaws. It would also require me to attach a second chop/jaw to the underside of my bench. The Veritas quick release mechanism is easier to attach under the clear space I will have past my bench's base. LV says "If your workbench does not have an apron, and if your workbench top is reasonably thick, you can mount the front vise to the underside of the workbench top and clamp workpieces against the edge of the workbench."

The new Veritas Quick Release vise has only been out about a year so LV even seems a little foggy on how it can and can't be used. I think this vise has some significant improvements over standard quick release vises so I am taking some time to explore it's capabilities.

[Gary Muto]

Thanks for the reply. It helped me understand what you want and confirm that I made the right decision for me. FWIW, if I was buying a QR vise it would be the Veritas. I like the screw guard and their QR mechanism, which is supposed to release under load. of course their customer service is tops too!

[Mike Holbrook]

No thank you for your thoughts Gary. I am currently waiting on LV to do a little research regarding how far from the QR mechanism it is safe to clamp items. They say in their instructions that you can use up to 24" jaws on the basically 12" wide mechanism. When I asked them about not centering the jaws on the mechanism but offsetting the jaws toward the working side of a bench the lady I was talking to got very nervous and started mentioning warranties being voided. I am waiting on her to do a little research after showing here in their instructions the part about the 24" jaws, which certainly creates a sizable offset area on either side of the mechanism.

Not being a mechanical engineer, I have no idea what kind of forces clamping outside the mechanism might exert against the vise, or how far from the mechanism might be safe. Since this would be a major part of the work I have planned for the vise I just want to make sure I want tear up the mechanism in short order.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Mike, given that clamping unobstructed by the vise screws, (and seemingly by sliding in from the side, rather than lifting a piece into place between two screws) seems to be an important factor for you, have you have thought about a traditional shoulder vise?

Another option might be an angled leg vise - gets the screw out of the way.

[Mike Holbrook]

Joshua,
I have thought about those two vises, my issue with both is the complicated installation and space they add to the side of the bench. My shop has no windows, underground, so I plan to put the bench in the middle of the room. I will be walking around the bench regularly. I am considering using the QR vise in place of a leg vise, mostly to hold boards for edge work.

I am following Schwarz's idea that a bench needs to be able to do three processes well: surfacing boards, working edges and working end grain. The Hovarter will handle just about any end grain work very well. The Split Top Roubo with a Hovarter as an end extension, planing stop & tail vise, plus various Veritas bench accessories, Gramercy Holdfasts...will handle all surface work very well. All that leaves is edge work for a QR face vise, sliding deadman and the long front edge of my bench. I am thinking long boards clamped on one end in the QR vise with the other end supported by the sliding dead man and Holdfast, Veritas Surface Clamp...It will just be convenient to be able to adjust the height of various width boards to the best height for edge jointing.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Okay - if you're planning to use that fancy hovarter in the back for both end grain and surface work, and really only want the front vise for holding things for edge planing/jointer, then you don't really need a fancy vise at all.

In fact, given that you're being a bit spendy on the end vise, (nothing wrong with that!) I'd be tempted to save a little money and just go with a crochet for the front vise if I was in your shoes. A crochet with a sliding deadman, and maybe some holes for pegs to support things a little closer at the leg side, and you'd be all set for edge jointing.

[Jim Koepke]

so I plan to put the bench in the middle of the room.

The simple solution would be to have two face vises, one on each side, and two tail vises, one on each end.

At least make the bench so a later addition will be easy to accomplish.

jtk

[Mike Holbrook]

My first thought was to use a crochet on the front of the bench but it sort of strikes me as a vise that is just sitting open all the time on the corner of the bench where it is in the way. It also seems to me that a fair amount of pressure would need to be exerted against that crochet to hold work steady enough for planing. I read a couple posts by people who added crochets permanently or via large dovetails and they seemed to indicate that they found they did not use them much.

I am planing from the Benchcrafted plans for a Spit Top Roubo, modified to be 28" wide to accommodate a Hovarter with 20" between clamp shafts. The two vises I am considering are not cheap but they are less than the hardware for the two Benchcrafted sells and I think I would like them better.

Jim you are kidding about 4 vises right? Not sure what 2 of the same vises offers?

[Rob Lee]

No thank you for your thoughts Gary. I am currently waiting on LV to do a little research regarding how far from the QR mechanism it is safe to clamp items. They say in their instructions that you can use up to 24" jaws on the basically 12" wide mechanism. When I asked them about not centering the jaws on the mechanism but offsetting the jaws toward the working side of a bench the lady I was talking to got very nervous and started mentioning warranties being voided. I am waiting on her to do a little research after showing here in their instructions the part about the 24" jaws, which certainly creates a sizable offset area on either side of the mechanism.

Not being a mechanical engineer, I have no idea what kind of forces clamping outside the mechanism might exert against the vise, or how far from the mechanism might be safe. Since this would be a major part of the work I have planned for the vise I just want to make sure I want tear up the mechanism in short order.

Mike -

Don't sweat the "warranty" - we stand behind whatever we sell. When we catalogue something like vise hardware - we have to give a reasonable envelope of applicability. Going outside of that envelope means that there is a chance that some part of the design may get overstressed... not just the vise, but fasteners, worktops, vise jaws etc.

As soon as you are clamping assymetrically - you are using a powerful lever (vise screw) on a second lever - which gets longer (and applies more force) the further you are clamping away from the fulcrum. The more in-line the clamping force is with the screw travel - the more robust the system is...

You can certainly use jaws as long as you like with a single screw - a leg vise is a good example of that. The parallel guide at the bottom of a leg vise is functionally no different than a spacer block used with a wide bench vise jaw to prevent skewing....(this would be much easier to show on a chalkboard!)... it's a class 3 lever.

Cheers -

Rob

[Pedro Reyes]

Not being a mechanical engineer, I have no idea what kind of forces clamping outside the mechanism might exert against the vise, or how far from the mechanism might be safe. Since this would be a major part of the work I have planned for the vise I just want to make sure I want tear up the mechanism in short order.

Mike,

My easiest recommendation would be to build some sort of block, imagine a cross like that of the red cross symbol, except one "leg" is 1/2" thick/wide one is 3/4" and so forth, that piece is easy to drop on the other end of the vise to balance any racking. As long as you have the 4 most common thicknesses you work with, within say 1/4", you should be OK.

/p

[Steve Friedman]

The simple solution would be to have two face vises, one on each side, and two tail vises, one on each end.

At least make the bench so a later addition will be easy to accomplish.

jtk

Or, you could go all the way and install 6 vises (don't forget the back of the bench). But seriously, I'm sure many of us have agonized over the "perfect" vise setup. Intellectually, it is easy to say that there is no "perfect" arrangement. Unfortunately, the hard part is that chasing the concept of designing the ultimate vise arrangement is addictive.

I really want the Benchcrafted vises, but I love Len Hovarter's design. Then, I also love the Lee Valley twin screw and their new vises. On the other hand, I literally drooled over the Lie-Nielsen vises when I got to use them this summer when I was up in Maine. OK, I admit that I am still addicted, but isn't that the first step?

I really like the line in one (or both) of Chris Schwarz' workbench books that essentially suggests not trying to reinvent the wheel. I'm paraphrasing, but he suggests that woodworking has been around for so many years that if a particular work holding method isn't being widely used, there is probably a good reason for that.

Keep it simple.

Still trying to take my own advice.

Steve

[Matthew Hills]

You can certainly use jaws as long as you like with a single screw - a leg vise is a good example of that. The parallel guide at the bottom of a leg vise is functionally no different than a spacer block used with a wide bench vise jaw to prevent skewing....(this would be much easier to show on a chalkboard!)... it's a class 3 lever.

Waiting to see someone build in this parallel guide with pin and rollers for a QR vise where the outside chop area is used...

(the normal approach with spacers seems to be keeping them on a string and dropping them in as needed)

Matt

[Mike Holbrook]

There certainly is the possibility of obsessing on the perfect combination of vises, not that I or anyone in this thread would do that of course. But, if we are not here to obsess on such things why are we here? Probably the main reason I am thinking about the two vises I am at the moment has more to do with ease of use. QR vises are, after all, quick at clamping and relatively quick to install in my bench design.

[Derek Cohen]

There is an alternative to a QR vise. You could use a very coarse screw that opens and closes rapidly. I shall be building a leg vise with a wooden screw, something in the range of 3 tpi. I would also estimate that about 90% of the work done by a face vise is holding boards to work on the edges. The range of an edge is probably 1/4" - 4", with 90% of this between 1/2" and 3/4". Based on this, there is not much extension needed by the face vise. Indeed, it is possible to have one setting with a leg vise and not have to alter it.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Keller NC]

Waiting to see someone build in this parallel guide with pin and rollers for a QR vise where the outside chop area is used...

(the normal approach with spacers seems to be keeping them on a string and dropping them in as needed)

Matt

There are many clever solutions to the spacer block need. One of the most innovative I've seen was Garret Hack's idea - he built a dovetailed piece into the end of the outside chop of the face vise, where the part of the piece that faces the inner jaws was sloped. One then just taps the piece in or out to get the required spacing. Presto - no loose pieces to find, and no hanging things to irritate.

[Mike Holbrook]

First thanks Rob for your assurances, certainly Lee Valley's reputation is legend with the posters on these pages. I have been following Derek's bench post and appreciate his comments too. As Derek says since I plan to use my face vise largely for working the edge of boards, with the assistance of a sliding deadman and several Veritas devices for securing pieces to the deadman/edge/leg of the bench, there should not be a pressing need for more capacity in either direction for this vise. This is actually the reason I started considering Veritas' new QR vs a leg vise.

Still I want to optimize the use of this vise as much as possible without risking damage to it. It had occurred to me that extending the vise chop disproportionately on either side might leverage the work piece against the QR mechanism. I just had/have no idea how severe this issue might be and how much worse it might get the further out the chop goes. Assuming I use the Veritas QR vise in the mentioned spot on my bench I do have to figure out the best way to design the outside jaw. Another thing I like about this idea is the instructions say I can use my nice thick bench edge as the vises inside jaw, no apron to build or be in the way. My particular bench design has enough top space outside the frame and leg to install the vise under the top, leaving both the bench legs free for clamping work to.

The position my bench will occupy in my shop will not leave much space for maneuvering, particularly at the side the face/leg vise will reside on. I will have the most space on the end of the bench, near my other bench and a wall full of bench tools. The main reason I am thinking of putting a twin screw or Hovarter vise there is a shop space/location consideration. As in Derek's case, part of my decision criterion has to do with the specific lay out of my shop. I am concerned about a leg vise on the other position on my bench, being an obstruction to the specific work space. I am also concerned about wood screws in my shop because it is underground, surrounded by concrete walls. There is plumbing & two kitchen sinks above where the leg/QR vise will reside.

The difficult thing about many of these discussions, particularly vises and their use, is the design of the particular bench and shop where the vise will be used has to be understood for the discussion to follow applicable paths.

[Gary Curtis]

About woodworking being around a long time, so everything worthwhile has been accepted. Well, in manufacturing/industry there are innumerable ways things are positioned or clamped — things barely explored in woodworking.

For starters, air clamps. The OP on this thread says he wants speed of clamping, quick release, ease of clearance. Well, little pneumatic cylinders offer all that. All you need is an air compressor. The same for Vacuum cylinders. I worked in aviation (DC-8, 747) and so many contraption on a plane are actuated by air pressure or vacuum. First and foremost, you can't argue with the speed.

A simple foot pedal or throw lever would get things in motion.

[Mike Holbrook]

Two very simple inexpensive ways to secure work to a bench are also wandering around in my head.

Screw Vise for edge clamping

There is a another vise option I am thinking about. I have a Veritas Tail Vise Screw. I don't think I need a tail vise for holding pieces to the top of the bench. But, what if I attach a movable crochet, simple hook or chop with dogs to the side of the bench using the tail vise screw? Simple dog holes in the side of a chop might be all I would need and they are not in the way at all until they are needed and a dog added? The devise would only need to move enough to tighten items against another work stop, a normal Crochet obviously does not move at all. My main problem with a crochet is the lack of a way to tighten items up against it. My problem with most screw vises is they are a pain to adjust over long distances. Would marrying the two eliminate the problems each suffers from individually?

Since the vise I need will mostly clamp boards for edge jointing it would seem dog holes: on the side/edge of the bench, both legs, and on a sliding deadman will give me lots of places to rest objects a screw vise could apply pressure to? With my: Gramercy Holdfasts, Veritas Hold Down, Veritas Surface Clamp, and Veriats Wonder Dog my bench would have quite a few options for clamping items to the side of the bench. I think a good case could be made for not using a vise at all. Crochets are often used without any vise. I imagine that as long as one is planing toward the Crochet there is no pressing need to clamp the board? If my bench has a tail vise that assists in actually clamping objects between a crochet and dogs or between dogs wouldn't it be ahead of the game?

Bench Anchor

Veritas also makes a Bench Anchor. All this is, is a board with short dog like objects that can be attached and held it in place in dog holes in the bench top. In his DVD on making and improving workbenches Schwarz demonstrates what I think is an even better anchor/stop. Schwarz's anchor is a simplified bench hook. The board on top of the bench is nothing more than a thin work stop that can be secured anywhere along the bench top with clamps or holdfasts. Combined with a properly sized board, in the Hovarter on the end of my bench, this device would provide a way to "clamp" almost any piece needing surface work to the top of the bench. Since the work piece would be held in place by two boards without any pressure being applied there is no danger of warping the work piece via vise pressure. With one of these work stops, some clamps and a split top bench one might not even need dogs in the top of the bench.