Dust collection sticker shock and dilemma...

[Mark Ashmeade]

I am in the process of moving my shop in the basement to give me a bigger space. The new shop will be 13-14' (varies along the length), and 38' long, with the double doors at the end leading into another 14' square room which I intend to keep as a clean room for assembly, hand tool room, and finishing (i.e. no DC required in there now, but could be added later if required).

Here's the plan of the long machine room:

220232

Here's the key to the machines/drops:

1. Dust collector
2. Powermatic 66 table saw
3. Jet 22-44 sander
4. Floor sweep
5. Bosch GCM12SD miter saw
6. Delta 33-411 RAS
7. Powermatic 72 table saw
8. Floor sweep (adjacent to drill press and lathe)
9. Powermatic 60B jointer
10. Powermatic 15S planer
11. Grizzly G0513P bandsaw

Now I had settled on the PSI Tempest 1535S collector, and used PSI's "free" ductwork service to plan the ductwork (Pay $100 now, get it back on the cost of the purchases). The collector is priced at $1295 + shipping (say $250), for a total of $1550 or so. I'd expected the ductwork to run another $800-$1000 or so. Over the last week or so I've been working with the planner on the ductwork, and finally got the plans right. I'd asked for 6" throughout up to and including the blast gates, so I could reposition the machines if the layout didn't work for me. That took a while to get right.

Yesterday I received the first Bill of Materials with pricing. Oh my lord. About $2500, shipped for the ductwork alone, making this a $4000 exercise. Not happening. Even if I dropped to economy ductwork, still not happening, as it would still be over $2k.

So I looked into PVC ductwork, and I can get enough 6" SDR35 pipe and fittings for about $500 delivered (local HD Supply). I reckon I need about 100ft of pipe and about 15-20 fittings. Still need to make a decision on blast gates and get 6" flex hose. I have a boatload of 4" fixed PVC and flex from my old shop (and HF 2HP DC with Thien separator). Say the blast gates are $200, and another $100 in 6" flex. For a total of $800 in ductwork using PVC.

One of the reasons I was looking at the PSI Tempest was that with everything from one manufacturer, I've got one neck to throttle if things go wrong. Now that their ductwork is out of the park, that reason to buy their DC goes away. HD Supply aren't going to warrant a load of sewer pipe being used for dust collection, so I may as well go back to the field for the cyclone.

I'm now looking at the Grizzly G0441 3HP cyclone. It runs pretty much the identical price, $1550 shipped. There are some pros/cons though vs the PSI:

Pro-Grizzly

Comes with a remote - saves $100 or so.
Can be had with bag gripper - I hated emptying the trashcan with my current DC. Costs $100 though.
Weighs a full 100lb more - implies more solid construction to me.
8" inlet - almost equivalent to 2x 6", one main each side of the shop. Tempest is 7", reduced to 6"

Pro-Tempest

Rated at 19A. No question on whether my supply is adequate.
Much larger filter area ( 6 or 7 times larger) - Pentz's site reckons that will only save about 0.2in Hg pressure loss though, so is it a big deal?
Footprint is smaller
In theory more powerful motor (3.5 vs 3HP), see below though.

What's surprising me though is that the Grizz calls for a 30A circuit for a 3HP motor. A perfect 3HP motor at 240V should draw 10A or so. OK, so the power factor will be off 100%, but it's in the manual at 22A draw. It must be either a dreadfully inefficient motor, draw considerably less than 22A, or be considerably more powerful than 3HP. I've already pulled the 20A circuit and sheet rocked over it, so I don't really want to change the cable. I can if necessary, but really prefer not to. I'm inclined to give it a go at 20A, and if it trips, then I'll have to upgrade.

One minor point, I just don't like the green color of it! I just don't get on with that color machinery, call me a fool if you like, but it's not kind to my eyes. Still, I'll enclose the DC in a noise box, so not that big of a deal. I'll have green pipe, but that can be painted.

I also took another look at the JDS, Oneida and ClearVues, but they are quite a bit more expensive, so I'm now minded to go with the Grizzly G0441, and the SDR35 pipe. I can't find the white ASTM D2729 thin wall gravity sewer pipe anywhere local, so SDR35 it is, at about $2/ft.

On the blast gates, I'm inclined to make them myself. I don't really want to make 11 blast gates, but the Aluminum ones are costly, especially shipped, and the plastic ones from ClearVue seem little better than the cheap ones I have on my HF, which clog all the time in the corners. I don't think I can save much though on making them myself. I think I need to destroy quite a few fittings to get the flange rings. Or get used to cutting 6" circles in MDF or something. Haven't quite figured that one out yet.

Sorry for the long post, but I'd be grateful for sanity checks here. I only want to do this once, I don't have $4k, but $2.5K is manageable (just!).

Particular areas I would value advice would be the blast gates, thoughts on the 20A circuit and whether anyone knows of a supplier of ASTM D2729 pipe in Atlanta or North GA.

Thanks!

[David Kumm]

10 amps is more like a 2 hp motor. Single phase motors are inefficient so a true 3 hp is more like 12-15 amps. The motor quality is a big issue with a DC. They run fully loaded more than any other motor. Oneida uses the best motor off the three you mentioned. I'd check local HVAC places for any spiral they may have. I found 6" pipe for a pretty cheap price. the fittings are high but 1.5 and 2.5 radius is a big deal. Kencraft are good quality for the price. You want 6" mains for the system and look at the impeller size as well. You should see a system curve and look at the cfm at the 8-12" range as that is where you will be running. Plumbing is expensive but so is doing it wrong. Dave

[Mark Ashmeade]

Thanks Dave. The 10A was the ideal case, I'd expect 15A from a 3HP motor; not 22A though. That leads me to believe it is probably under-rated, if it truly does pull 20 or more amps. The Grizz also has a 15.5" impeller, which is about 7% larger than the PSI model. All these small items probably don't make all that much difference (e.g. 3HP vs 3.5HP, 15" vs 15.5, filter loss differences etc), but as you say, getting it wrong is costly. I'm already $100 in the hole with the nugatory ductwork planning.

I am pretty set on doing it in PVC now, there's no way I can make a decent fist of it in spiral from a cost perspective. Plenty of people have used PVC, and I found it very adaptable with my 4" setup on the HF. This will definitely be 6" throughout though.

[David Kumm]

$100 to learn stuff is still OK. Take the best of their plan and adapt it to your pipe choices. There are some long radius pvc ells available and they might to worth the effort in select spots. I assume it is the thin walled drain pvc as that is what most seem to use. Besides the motor get the one with the best filter media. Alan Schaffter here has pictures and a video about making blast gates for pvc. He has a very nice and well thought out system. Worth getting advice. Do get a system curve faxed to you from both and compare. The knowledge is worth the effort. Dave

[John Lanciani]

If I had a shop that size I'd be looking at 5hp DC's with an 8" main trunk line. If you're 100% committed to a 3hp DC you'd be better served to locate it somewhere in the middle of the long wall with 6" mains running in both directions.

A high efficiency 3hp single phase motor will pull 14 amps at full load, most of the asian imports will be 20+. As for Penn State's 3.5hp motor, I suspect that the marketing people came up with that number. 1, 1.5, 2, 3, 5, 7.5 & 10hp are the NEMA standard sizes.

The Clearvue 6" gates are quite nice, no comparison to the black plastic 4" ones that everybody sells.

[Paul Wunder]

Mark, are you sure that the ClearVue is that much more expensive? the CV1800 (five horse) prices out at $1606 vs the Grizzly (3 horse) at $1549. There are some adders which could change the pricing: +$300 if you want a Grizzly Stand; + about $30 for a dust bin for the ClearVue + electrical. I considered both brands but went with the ClearVue. Incidentally, the CV is already sized and will mate perfectly with 6" PVC; the Grizzly will need to be adapted. I agree that the old CV blast gates were not good, but have you seen their latest version? Better quality, they mate perfectly with PVC ducting and they don't clog....really worth a second look.

Paul

[David Kumm]

There has been a listing for a used clearvue recently. Take a look at CL. 5 hp is a cure all problems size but needs 8" mains to justify its potential. I found a used Torit 20-5 for cheap $ and made my own plenum. A used Torit is a step above as it is a full commercial unit. One sold just recently for $1200 complete with bags. I added a cartridge to the bags and have the best of both worlds. Dave

The torit is 3 phase but that is a plus for me. A $300 used vfd and you can adjust hz to adjust cfm and get soft start. Eliminates some problems. Probably more than you want to get involved with but the knowledge is good.

[Ray Newman]

As for ducting, might be advisable to check with the local HVAC suppliers?? Find out the gauge and the amount of duct needed and ask them for a price. I did that when I ran metal duct for my Oneida. Saved on shipping and was received a disciount for "buying in bulk."

[Mark Ashmeade]

Now that's given me something to think about! I don't know why I thought the CV was much more expensive, as you say, the 1800 is darn close. That said, if I were to have to pull a 30A cable for a 5HP motor (no question), I would probably go with the bigger impeller of the CVMax. I REALLY don't want to be doing this again! That puts me right at $2200 including blast gates from them, plus $500 in PVC. A bit over my budget of $2500, but if that wouldn't be a Rolls-Royce solution, I don't know what would.

On the blast gates, it's the clogging that gets me. Is there a design feature that stops that?

[David Kumm]

Mark, if you go the max route and stay with 6" pvc you won't get anymore cfm than the regular impeller model. Might not get much more than the 3.5 PS. DC units are not like vacuums that pull cfm at high SP. Once you reach the maximun SP- approx 12" you won't gain unless you reduce that static pressure by eliminating filters and piping outside, an then the increase will be small as the SP goes up pretty quickly as the velocity and cfm increase. You really only get more air by increasing pipe size. The max, the Torit 20-5 and the other 5 hp 16" impeller type units need a minimum of 7" and preferably 8" to acheive the 1500 cfm they are designed to pull. Also understand that diameter alone is only an approximation of fan capacity so one companies 15" might outperform another's 16". Confused yet? Dave

[ian maybury]

I found myself operating to a very tight budget while installing a Pentz/CV system too Mark.

The route I took was zero compromise on those aspects of specification influencing performance - i had enough years of fighting with a 1kW bag filter unit which would just about pick up chips only when everything was right - and filled my shop with dust all the time.

I then set out to save money by other means. I bought a 16in impeller and blower housing as parts from CV (well priced), but assembled my own cyclone (the labour intensive more pernickedty part) to Bill P's drawings (from his website) starting with a basic cylinder and cone fabrication, inlet chute, and part made internal parts from a local HVAC fab shop. I went for spiral ducting from the same fabricator - far cheaper over here at around €12/3m length than any sort of plastic piping. Some thoughts in no particular order:

1. Your shop looks pretty large to settle for a 3HP blower - the duct runs may be quite long.

2. There's good reason to err on the large side in choosing a blower/impeller - e.g. the CV 16in dia. Quite apart from the higher CFM the extra diameter brings a significant improvement in performance at higher pressures too.

3. I stayed away from 'commercial' (branded re-sellers) of off the shelf systems like the plague - what you get will probably be marked up, hyped and skinned to the bone.

4. Ditto on sourcing spiral ducting. The best bet is probably a low overhead manufacturing HVAC fabrication business - there's many of them with the machine to make spiral ducting. if you can't get trade prices maybe you can find a contractor who would allow you to piggy back an order?

My shop is a bit smaller than yours, but US prices are normally better than ours (you can usually buy for $1 what we pay €1 for or better) and i paid €1,400 plus tax for the cyclone fabrications plus all of my duct and fittings. I was quoted around UK£1,700 for ducting ONLY (€2,000+) by the UK rep for a branded maker of dust systems. maybe somebody can chime in on the US situation.

5. Ditto on going for a good name branded set of HEPA filter cartridges by a speciality industrial maker with plenty of area. (but seriously consider building in the option to exhaust outside as well) It makes no sense to skimp on the core element of the system. Why pay mark up to a re-seller/maker of packaged dust systems, or get lumbered with a reduced spec?

6. Ditto on buying a motor. Used/recon may be an option, but either way an industrial supplier will at least mean you get what you thought (not some OEM commissioned re-plated bitza) and at the right price.

7. Be careful of ducting design services, there's at least one about that's specifying reduced diameter drops. Chances are those guys will just throw out a layout without too much thought anyway. There's in truth not much to it you can't do yourself once you select your ducting size - you just need to out in lots of thinking time to check out the layout options. David K has lots of experience with larger ducting, i went a bit more conservative at the time at 160mm dia (a Euro size, about 6 3/8in)based on the information i had.

8. I have the Clear Vue blast gates. Very nicely made, good fits and they have corner vents to stop clogging. Mine haven't done enough yet for my feedback to mean much, but i've never seen anybody report bad experience. I'd stay well away from mainstream commercial cast aluminium blast gates unless carefully checked out - many have very poor fits and will cost you a bundle through leakage.

I'm not sure how the above will play in the US context, but I suspect that with a bit of lateral thinking you should be able to get around the budget issue.

ian

[Mark Ashmeade]

Hmm, Interesting point David. I'll essentially have two 6" mains, one down each side, with 6" drops to the tools. Some may have 2x4" drops if I can't get a 6" port on the tool. At this point I am not contemplating 8" mains, I think that's overkill for a 500 sq ft shop. I guess for Clearvue, it comes down to this:

Would a CV1800 (that starts out as 6") with a 6 x6 x6 wye at the cyclone to join the two 6" mains together perform better or worse than a CVMax with the same 6" mains joined into an 8x6x6 wye at the cyclone? If the performance were the same, then there seems no point in buying the CVMax for my shop.

[Mark Ashmeade]

Thanks Ian, I think a positive recommendation on the ClearVue blast gates probably has that issue settled anyway.

While building a cyclone is probably not beyond me, I think it not likely that I will have the time to do so, and will likely worry whether I could have achieved better performance from a prebuilt unit.

Several posters have now highlighted the 3HP issue, so I probably ought to go with 5HP. The Grizzly is considerably more expensive at 5HP vs 3.

I do feel your pain Ian, when I lived in the UK, I could never have hoped to have a shop approaching what I have now. I remember watching NYW about 15 years ago and was amazed at the machines in Norm's shop. I had no idea they even existed for home shops. Now I'm "living the dream", and spoilt for choice. Quite literally.

David is being very helpful though. It looks like a solution may be in sight... (pun intended!)

[Paul Wunder]

Mark, the simple answer to the 1800 vs the Max is that the Max is designed for multiple machine use at the same time. If that will be your modus operandi then go for it. If not, choose the regular 1800 unit. I am a single machine user, although I have upper and lower collection on my table saw and band saw. My longest run is about 40' and the CV1800 handles it well. It is hard to explain the new design of the CV blast gates except that they are a quantum leap from the old ones..which were junk! I am also please that they fit the 6" PVC perfectly.

[Mark Ashmeade]

Thanks Paul. On the 40' run, how many wyes and elbows would the air encounter?

I've no intention of more than one machine, I can see a case with upper & lower 4" ports, maybe even a 6" on the PM72 and a 4" overhead, but that's the absolute worst case. It sounds like your set up with a CV1800 is similar to what I would end up with, if I went that route.

[David Kumm]

Hmm, Interesting point David. I'll essentially have two 6" mains, one down each side, with 6" drops to the tools. Some may have 2x4" drops if I can't get a 6" port on the tool. At this point I am not contemplating 8" mains, I think that's overkill for a 500 sq ft shop. I guess for Clearvue, it comes down to this:

Would a CV1800 (that starts out as 6") with a 6 x6 x6 wye at the cyclone to join the two 6" mains together perform better or worse than a CVMax with the same 6" mains joined into an 8x6x6 wye at the cyclone? If the performance were the same, then there seems no point in buying the CVMax for my shop.

Given those choices I would get the cyclone with the 8" inlet. Will help a little but for little extra gives you the capability to change your mind in the future. You might find that as life goes on you can change out the main with the most need. The cheapest system is one you don't have to replace. I might go as far as get an 8x8x8 wye and reduce down- long taper reducer- . Might be easier to convert the reducer to pvc anyway and ultimately encourage you to change out. Dave

[Craig Behnke]

mark,

know what you mean, i recently bought a DC system. When researching DC systems, I shat when i found out the cost of the ductwork. But I decided a DC system is one of those things that I was not going to buy a bit small and soon regret it, and then lose money on a re-sale, and then spend more money on getting the system I SHOULD have bought in the first place.

I just didn't have the budget for a brand new 3-5 HP cyclone with steel ductwork, so I searched Craigslist almost everyday for about 3 months and I found a spectacular bargain. It takes a looooooooong time to search and not bite on a less than great deal. But really good deals are out there, for example. I got a complete turnkey DC system, the stuff was brand new in box and never installed, it was bought in Sept 2010 and, sadly, the owner passed away in Dec 2010. The family put it on CL last fall. I had to drive 3 hours from Vermont to Massachusetts to get it, but my cost of gas was under $60....not bad. It was a complete system just needing install.

The total invoice from the manufacturer for all the stuff brand new was $2,800 but the CL price was $1,200. DEALS CAN BE FOUND.

It was a complete system including:
PSI 3.5 HP Tempest Cyclone
60 feet of 6 inch spiral ductwork
20 ft of 4 inch spiral duct
20 ft of 4 inch flex hose
10 ft of 4 inch stretch hose
Four 6x6x6 laterals
Four 6x6x4 laterals
Three 45 degree elbows 6 inch
Four 90 degree elbows 6 inch
8 four inch blast gates
A bunch of 4 inch elbows
2 four foot tall filters
35 gal dust bin
Remote full sensor for dust bin
Remote control for DC
All the strap hangers
A bunch of component connectors
Caulking, screws, foil tape, etc, etc, etc
And a lot of stuff i'm probably forgetting

[Mark Ashmeade]

Craig, you SUCK! But thanks for the encouragement.

Dave, I get what you're saying. I certainly don't want to paint myself into a corner in the future. I suppose if I have $2k in a cyclone, and only $500 in ducting, it wouldn't be the end of the world to get rid of the ducting in the future as the situation dictates. But better to have the cyclone that *would* work with 8" duct vs one that *wouldn't*.

[David Kumm]

Craig, you SUCK! But thanks for the encouragement.

Dave, I get what you're saying. I certainly don't want to paint myself into a corner in the future. I suppose if I have $2k in a cyclone, and only $500 in ducting, it wouldn't be the end of the world to get rid of the ducting in the future as the situation dictates. But better to have the cyclone that *would* work with 8" duct vs one that *wouldn't*.

The impeller is a swap out item as well. They would probably sell either one. In the used dept, my Torit cyclone, commercial Baldor motor, impeller only cost me $400 so keep an eye open. Dave

[ian maybury]

Realistically Mark the difference between the 1800 and the Max is an extra inch on imepeller diameter. If for example you run 6in ducting all that's going to do is mean it runs a little lower on the curve than it would with a larger duct. It's still going to deliver a bit more than the 1800 at that. If you were buying the impeller to do a DIY blower the difference is $50. ;)

If you run the larger 8in header and drop to 6in to the machines that's going to produce a similar result - no problem, and a bit more puff unless the machines or some other part of the system proves so restrictive as to drop the velocity in the bigger duct too low for good transportation. (the guidelines say that's ideally 4,000ft/min, but definitely not below 3,500 in verticals)

More to the point though Craig is emphasising what i was trying to get across - with a bit of low cunning and patience there's scope to knock a lot of cost out of a system. Accepting that you're not going DIY on a cyclone there's probably enough of a saving to be had by using industrial suppliers, buying used etc to leave you free on specification of the main elements of the system...

ian

[Bruce Seidner]

My solution to the problem has been to scavenge what I can and build what I can't.

I got an industrial blower on Ebay for about $200 and picked it up myself, turning the trip to FL into a family vacation. I just checked Ebay and there are a number of very competent blowers available right now. I got a New York Blower that is 5hp single phase and it will suck the chrome off a bar hitch. I just purchased 4 sticks of 14' 8" diameter SDR35 green sewer pipe and that came to $200. I have 5 20' sticks of ASDM 2729 white sewer/drain that came to about this much when I purchased them last year as well. Fittings I have found local on Craig's listings and get them for about $5 a piece when I can. I am now onto the jig making for my adventures in plastic fabrication, mitering pipe with my band saw and sliding miter. I picked up a Harbor Freight PVC welder and will be assembling the fittings I lack here in the next week or two. It is still real money, but it was spent over time and there is elbow grease involved. This is a rebuild of the former system with the new 8" main runs because I too had to rearrange my shop to accommodate changing realities and opportunities. If you need a galvanized steel cyclone (6" inlet, 7" outlet and 18" round) PM me because I now have no room for it and it needs a new home. It is a challenge to be sure but I have been very encouraged by the information that is generously shared on this forum. Best of luck. You are in good company.

[Paul Wunder]

Mark, my main run is about 45' with several 8' to 10' branches along the way that turn down to each machine. Unfortunately, because it is in a basement with low ceiling clearance and a main beam running down the center of the house, I had to use perimeter ducting. There are three long ninety degree turns and five wyes off of the main duct. The power and dust control is excellent throughout. Have you tried irrigation supply firms or a John Deere dealer to obtain 2729 thinwall S&D piping. You can also try Waterworks (they are a national irrigation supply firm to the trade). I got my piping from them (I'm only a hobbyist) in Connecticut and as I recall I paid about $1.40/foot on the 10' lengths. The fittings were very cheap

[Mark Ashmeade]

Thanks Paul. I'll talk to ClearVue tomorrow and get their take. To be frank, this is becoming a bigger issue than it needs to be. I'm minded to spring for the bigger impeller and be done with it. I'll also try John Deere, it seems there's lots of locations in ATL.

[Kurt Cady]

John Deere in ATL wants $6/ft for S&D 6". Buy it at McMasterCarr and go pick it up. Fittings too.

[ian maybury]

It's a different market Mark, and you may not want to go spiral anyway - but $6/ft while i'm sure a good price for PVC (pardon my bad manners Kurt) is about x3 what it's possible to buy spiral ducting for over here from a manufacturing (as opposed to re-selling) supplier at trade rates. It might be worth a few calls.

Some more thoughts on budget. Flexible hose and clips add up surprisingly quickly, so don't forget to budget for them too. Extra fittings could add up too, and be a PIA. It's well worth sitting down and laying out the shop and machines on a scale layout drawing, you can then do ducting, lighting, cable runs etc. (i used lay on top tracing paper sheets) It's surprising how much clarity the overview of having a drawing adds - not to mention how carefully it turns out that everything needs to be fitted together in a small shop.

The drawing will allow you to more or less precisely call off the required fitting and ducting lists, and having it all in one list helps a lot where negotiating a price is concerned. (the likelihood is that you'll get hit for full price on anything you have to go back for afterwards) It may not be strictly necessary if you go for the CV max or similar, but the drawing is also very useful for counting the ft run and numbers of bends etc to calculate your total pressure drop in each line.

ian

[Mark Ashmeade]

John Deere in ATL wants $6/ft for S&D 6". Buy it at McMasterCarr and go pick it up. Fittings too.

Thanks Kurt. Looking at McMaster's site, it's $28.16 for 10', BUT, it's green in color. Might be worth a phone call to see if they have any in white.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#pvc-sewer-pipe/=fvexoi

If it truly is the case, I may as well go with SDR35 for $2/ft from HD Supply - Waterworks. I'll try a couple more places today, see if I can't get white S&D in that price range.

Ian - I have a good plan, it's just the cost was out of the park. I am grateful for your time on this. I think from a flexibility and ease of work standpoint, I would prefer PVC. I do need to get the flex and clips too.

[Chris Parks]

Mark, the simple answer to the 1800 vs the Max is that the Max is designed for multiple machine use at the same time.

Not quite true. The Max was designed for 50hz markets to equal the 1800 at 60hz. At 50hz the impeller speed is reduced to 2800 rpm against 3450 rpm at 60hz and the larger impeller was introduced to overcome this issue.

[Mark Ashmeade]

Well I've found something interesting today. ASTM D2729 is like rocking horse droppings round here. McMaster has it but it's green. It's also more expensive than SDR35. i tried a couple of HVAC shops, and that was an interesting exercise.

One guy has 26ga spiral, and I think that's a bit light. He's at 2.30/ft, $28/elbow, Wyes $15.

The best one I've found for the pipe though is the Mom & Pop shop that makes spiral. He can do 22ga for $1.87/lf. I'm getting quotes based on 150ft of it. His fittings are much more expensive, at $50 each or so, but they're tailor made on his plasma machine. I'm out of the country all next week, so the week after, I'll be paying that guy a visit.

Another guy has promised me an email quote, so we'll see where that goes.

Moving along nicely now!



I

[ian maybury]

It seems that some ducting suppliers take the P*** a bit Mark - that the luxury of being able to choose from a fancy brochure or web shop can add quite a premium.

The two fittings mostly required are 45 deg bends, and 45 deg T's in whatever your main duct size. This may give you a target to shoot for in spiral if it's needed - pardon if i'm overdoing it.

The prices were very good (the market was dead flat at the time as our economic crisis had just hit) but my guys supplied the 45deg bends as pressed fittings with male spigots relatively cheaply - at about €6 each. The pressed seam welded galvanised steel variety have the advantage of being more reliably to size.

They didn't have stock or rapid access to a pressed 45 deg T, and so fabricated them themselves. These were more expensive at about €18 each. The big disadvantage with fabbed items apart from the cost is that unless the supplier is very good you have to watch quality (especially dimensions and finishing) like a hawk.

Chances are unless they have very good stock (less likely in the case of a small low overhead fab shop) that you may need to get some fittings fabbed up - for example something like a reducing 6in to 5in with a 4in branch at 45 deg for the band saw or the table saw may not be available off the shelf. It's hard to plan all the way to the machines until you have ducting in place and can see what you need.

If they are fabbing some fittings and you're not sure what you will need by way of this and ancilliaries like duct hangers you could maybe agree that option to come back with say one more batch which will be discounted as per the main order.

Another issue to watch out for is to specify that all of the fittings are internally smooth, and have no projections. Some of these guys are used to doing HVAC stuff where the odd inside lip and lots of leakage doesn't matter. Best to specify a decent fit for the fabbed stuff too in case they get sloppy - say not more than 1mm clearance on diameter on sliding fits into spiral.

You'll need a good sealing tape for spiral. This US made and UL approved stuff seems to be good (it's what i used - sticks like crazy, and conforms well), but it's not cheap at about €100 for the job: http://www.tapes-direct.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1129 :) Spend a half a day rubbing down tape and you'll soon know what sore fingers feel like....

ian

[jim gossage]

Mark,
Try airduct co in lombard IL for spiral pipe. Their pipe and fittings are at least half the price of competitors. E.g. 5 ft of 6" pipe is $9. I am going to test order some fittings and pipe to check its quality. they also have rubber seals at all joints. I think i can do my whole shop for $600 not including gates.

[Phil Maddox]

Mark - I'll chuck in my two cents - ductwork can be added, modified, installed in a temporary fashion, etc. The equipment you buy is something you want to last for long time. Buy the best equipment and save somewhere else. I am partial to Oneida - I have a 3hp SDG and I love it! Americans still do it best when it comes to motors - SDG has a Baldor - one of the best. The Baldor on the CV is compressor duty - if I remember correctly - I think this means less heavy duty. I've looked at the Grizzly up close and it is not in the same league as my SDG - at least build wise. The CV has an MDF blower housing and a plastic cyclone - something that I don't like, seems too homemade for the money it costs.

I have a friend who is very happy with his Penn State 3.5hp - it seems much louder than my SDG but these things are hard to judge, it could just be the location it is in.

Good luck in whatever decision you make.

PM

[Alan Schaffter]

John Deere in ATL wants $6/ft for S&D 6". Buy it at McMasterCarr and go pick it up. Fittings too.

Make sure you are asking for the thin-walled stuff (ASTM 2729, solid perf, gravity fed S&D) the thicker, green SDR-35 (ASTM 3034) which is also classified as S&D is heavier and more expensive!!

Also, you must be careful buying at many John Deere Landscapes! They have two prices in their store listings and unless you are a contractor or convince them you are, they will try to charge you almost 3X what they charge a contractor for 6" S&D!!!! The contractor price should be somewhere in the $13 - $15 range for a 10' length of 6" S&D. So if you don't have an account there, or are not a contractor, either act like one or find a contractor who will buy it for you with no mark-up!

From an 03-07-2011 SMC (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/archive/index.php/t-161090.html?) thread: "I got mine from John Deere Landscapes...they didn't have it in the Milwaukee area but shipped it from a MI store at a very small cost. Paid $13 for 10' pipe and IIRC they charged me $15 or so to ship it. No issue with me being a contractor or not...didn't even come up." He was lucky!

Also from that thread: "The biggest problem in finding the pipe is finding someone that knows what they carry. I finally went to a big plumbing yard, asked for S&D 2729. They had no idea what it was. I asked if I could look around their yard. Found it, got one of the counter guys to go with my and pointed out the S&D 2729 stamped on the side of the pipe.:confused: When calling around looking for this pipe, refer to it as "thin wall gravity fed sewer and drain pipe".

From a 2010 SMC thread: "Following Alan's advice on an earlier post for the JDL.... John Deere Landscape, I was able to get 10' lengths of 6" ASTM2729 for about 12.90.. or about 1.29 per foot. It was the best price by far.... and... they delivered with no charge."

[Chris Fairbanks]

Mark, Not sure if you saw but ClearVue has a "Layaway Plan" When you place your order you can have them charge your credit card 1/4 of the total order price right away and then 1/4 each month after that for 3 months. Might make the slightly higher price of going with a CV easier. Thats my plan once I get around to redoing my shop. So tired of my Jet cartridge DC as my drop sander and planer just kill it. http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/content/14-layaway-plan GL

[Ole Anderson]

Go with 26 gauge snap lock steel and you are about a buck a foot for 5", 6" and 7" pipe from the BORG. That way you can use the size you need. With a 3 hp unit 8" may be too big and 6" too small for your main runs. Spiral is classy, but overpriced if you have a budget. Check with the local HVAC supplier or a local tin knocker for pipe and fittings including wyes and blast gates also. And don't overllook the V series DC from Oneida. That yellow is real purdy:). I agree that with a shop your size, 3 hp is the minimum. Bigger is better, but running a big motor for any period of time is costly. Unlike your saw, the DC tends to get left on for longer periods of time.

And don't forget to price all of your fittings, including the sweep bends and wyes, Wyes are not cheap, and you don't want tees or sanitary tees for your machine connections. 6" PVC or steel wyes are close to $30 each.

[Alan Bienlein]

I have about $1200 total in my cyclone and duct work shown in these pictures.
220508220509220510
It's a 20" dia. cyclone with the 16" impeller and the Leeson 5hp motor. All the duct work came from Home Depot and I made all my own 45 degree wye's and the blast gates from scrap I had lying around the shop. The main is 8" split into two 6" lines.

[Mark Ashmeade]

Thanks guys. Now I'm getting some good quotes for spiral, I'm tending that way. I'm getting quotes for 22ga, which may be a bit overkill, but it's looking like $2/ft for 6" and closer to $3 for 8". This is 22ga though. I can get 24 or 26 for about 10% less per gauge, i.e. 26 ga is about 20% less than 22.

I've got basic wyes and elbows for $17-$25, depending on 6" or 8", and this is before negotiation on the whole amount.

I'm away all next week, and then I'll go and see the guy, he's about 50 miles away, but worth the trip it seems.

I like Alan B's setup, but I think spiral will be in the "I only want to do this once" category more than HD snap lock.