Diamond Lapping Film..

[Brian Cameron]

Has anyone tried the Lapping Films that LV is now offering? If so...what is the concensus on them? Are they worth trying?
Brian

[David Weaver]

If they solve a problem you have, they should be worth trying. They're pretty cheap for diamond stuff.

[Brian Cameron]

Thanks David..but what I wanted was do they perform as advertised?

[David Weaver]

I know I've seen Derek say elsewhere that they do.

There is little that LV sells that doesn't work the way you'd expect.

[Bart Nadeau]

My set was delivered from LV a little over a week ago and I've honed five or six irons with them already. This is a great set up! It truly works as advertised. Since the pieces are 6x3 you can line up all three on a 12x9 granite slab and, with the exposed extra three inches, make full passes with your honing guide. They cut a bevel and hone really fast. Also, really reduce the required bench space. I use a can of honing oil I had on hand and when that runs out will just make some up with mineral oil cut with kerosine.Only question that remains is how long the films will last.
IMHO, Derek's comments are right on.

[Brian Cameron]

Thanks Bart..read Dereks comment and agree.. appreciate the info
Brian

[Derek Cohen]

Has anyone tried the Lapping Films that LV is now offering? If so...what is the concensus on them? Are they worth trying?
Brian

This is a copy of posts I have made over at WoodNet.

Link to LV: http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=68943&cat=51&ap=1

I helped evaluate these films, working through a wad of different grits to narrow down the micron progression, and trying to get a fix on their longevity.

Keep in mind that these should not be considered a replacement of oil/waterstones in a permanent set up, but are ideal for working with PM steels or as part of a travelling kit.

That said, the films are amazing in their ability to hone steel, and their longevity. I have some that have been through several hundred cycles (per piece). Just be careful that you do not inadvertantly slice the film (with a rough edge). I use a little camilla oil for a lubricant. This works very well.

Regards the sizing of the mesh sheets. Firstly, it is available in this sizing from the manufacturer I believe, which makes it cheaper I imagine. Secondly, I had the idea that one could (as I have) stuck all meshes on one 12" x 6" substratum (glass or whatever), which makes it convenient to store and use. A 6"x3" mesh is large enough for either freehanding or a guide (note: these meshes act like diamond plates - there is no cross contamination). The mesh requires very little "movement" to do its job. I did not experience an issue with dubbing. The mesh is unlike sandpaper - it is very flat and on a hard backing. Be sure that you clean the substratum well - dust below will create a bump, which will end up being sliced.

The meshes chosen (15/3/.5/.1u) allow for the least extra wear on each successive mesh ... in other words, the most efficient use of each mesh. You could forgo the 0.1u if you wish, but I must say that the addition of this takes the sharpening level to something well beyond "scary" ... frightening sharp.

In summary, these meshes are a must-try. Prepare to be amazed. You may not stop smiling! http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yellowsmile.gif

.....

My experimentation started with 15 microns, 9 (this changed to 6u), 0.5 and 0.1 My thoughts ran along the lines of my waterstones (Shaptons 1000, 5000 and 12000) and diamond pastes (40, 10 and 0.5). I was curious to see what the difference would be between 0.5 and 0.1 microns.

I was also evaluating the new PM steel for LV, plus I had CPM 3V and M4 on hand, along with A2.

There was much experimenting, doing actual planing (of Jarrah - chosen as it is an abrasive hardwood), as well as using chisels, to determine which steps between which grits worked best. Off the top of my head, the choices I argued for at the end were 15, 6, 3, 0.5 and 0.1, and the LV final selection excluded the 6 micron (as it made no significant difference to include it).

At the start I used water to lubricate and carry away the swarf. This was recommended by LV. I quickly changed this to water-plus-detergent, which was a big improvement. Later I suggested Camilla oil, which was an even bigger improvement.

Testing the films on softer steels is a lot like testing plane blades on straight-grained woods - it is less likely that you will find important differences when the conditions are easy. Using harder/abrasion-resistant steels really shows up the potential of these films. They work just as well on the O1 and A2 steels, but then the differences with a Shapton or even an oilstone will be reduced significantly.

In the end I can say that the films are amazing for what they can do, especially with PM steels. I like the fact that they remain flat without any work. I have zero problems with swarf using Camilla oil.

Here is my "sharpening centre" - a 1" thick length of flat granite ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/November1.jpg

Note: my film is not the standard 6x3". I was using large sheets and cut them down to get maximum wear. I did suggest that the the 6x3" be used as I believe that this is all one needs ... and the price is lower. We are used to 8" long waterstones because that is how they have always been sold. But a 6" medium is absolutely fine with me, whether freehanding (especially freehanding!) or using a guide (one doe not need much work on a edge using these films).

....

The combination is quite a different feel to waterstones. Even more so along the spectrum is a cast iron plate with impregnated diamond paste. These are hard and slippery - very little feedback. Waterstones, even the hard ceramic stones, given more feedback. My old Kings, which were quite soft, gave lots of feedback.

I really would not consider the diamond film for " taking care of a nick". This is the weak point of the film - it is vulnerable to being cut. Avoid contact with ragged edges . The film is best for dull blades, not damaged edges.

....

Derek - I'm curious as to why you say these are not suitable for a primary sharpening system? I read a lot of you stuff and love it.

Could you elaborate?

Film - including sandpaper - although a fairly modest outlay, ends up being expensive. They wear out and need to be replaced, and are relatively fragile and need to be replaced. And they always need to be replaced when you have run out! http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yellowsmile.gif

I'd rather use waterstones. Nevertheless there is a place for these (and other) films. With these diamond films, they are extremely useful for the PM steels (which are coming). They also form the basis of a superior travelling system.

Let me emphasise, as much as these films are fantastic for sharpening, this is restricted to dull edges - not chipped or damaged edges. The film will tear or be sliced by a sharp edge. Even a folded edge I first "wipe" across a fine diamond stone.


Regards from Perth

Derek

[Rick Fisher]

Wondering with the extra fine grits available if you can get a keener edge than you can with say an 8000 grit waterstone ?

I have a 13000 stone coming for final honing but would these films not be even better ?

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Rick

An 8000 grit waterstone is approximately 2 microns, and a 13000 is about 1 micron. Veritas green compound averages at 0.5 micron. These diamond films take you to 0.1 micron. That is about a grit equivalent of 100 000!

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Joel Moskowitz]

Wondering with the extra fine grits available if you can get a keener edge than you can with say an 8000 grit waterstone ?

I have a 13000 stone coming for final honing but would these films not be even better ?
It depends. One critisim of most peoples technique that I was admonished for and guilty of came from a Japanese plane maker who said that the single biggest issue he saw was that people did not spend enough time on their finishing stones. As you use a traditional finishing stone and let it dry out the grits round, fracture and break down giving you an effective grit that is far finer than the nominal grit of the stone. So depending on the grit hardness of your 13k stone the answer might be yes and you will get a far finer fast finish because you will go from 13k to a much finer grit and all the grits in between. Diamond doesn't break down and you are making descrete jumps. The real boon of diamond is in exotic alloys which are too hard to quickly sharpen any other way.

[David Weaver]

I have a 13000 stone coming for final honing but would these films not be even better ?

It depends on how you define better. If you can't get an edge the way you want it coming off of a 13k stone, it's probably because the edge wasn't finished, like joel says.

I can't see any difference in the wood below about 1 micron if the edge is done well, and that's without regard to the polishing regime joel is talking about.

I think to see any practical difference between these films and the SP 13k stone, you'll need to be honing something tougher than A2.

[David Weaver]

It depends. One critisim of most peoples technique that I was admonished for and guilty of came from a Japanese plane maker who said that the single biggest issue he saw was that people did not spend enough time on their finishing stones.

I may have even been someone who didn't buy into this the first time I heard it, because of the multitude of fast and very fine polishing stones.

But straight razor shaving changed my mind. If you have a hard enough stone, you can just go to clear water (as opposed to having a slurry or stone grit floating around, etc) to polish an edge well beyond what the grit rating of the stone says. If not, as you say, you can let the stone dry out.

It is *very* clear how much of a difference this makes once you start shaving with an edge, though it is an extra step that's probably not necessary with the stones that are out now. With an 8k stone, it provides a lot of benefit, and with marginal hard natural stones it definitely lets you get by on the cheap by pulling double duty with one stone.

[Jack Curtis]

It depends. One critisim of most peoples technique that I was admonished for and guilty of came from a Japanese plane maker who said that the single biggest issue he saw was that people did not spend enough time on their finishing stones. As you use a traditional finishing stone and let it dry out the grits round, fracture and break down giving you an effective grit that is far finer than the nominal grit of the stone. So depending on the grit hardness of your 13k stone the answer might be yes and you will get a far finer fast finish because you will go from 13k to a much finer grit and all the grits in between. Diamond doesn't break down and you are making descrete jumps. The real boon of diamond is in exotic alloys which are too hard to quickly sharpen any other way.

Does your first statement mean we don't spend enough time caring for the polishing stone? If so, what more should we do? Or using it to refine our blades? Again, if so, what should we do?

Thanks,
Jack

[Joel Moskowitz]

Does your first statement mean we don't spend enough time caring for the polishing stone? If so, what more should we do? Or using it to refine our blades? Again, if so, what should we do?

Thanks,
Jack
What I mean we don't spend enough time polishing on the polishing stone - so the grit has a chance to break down and get finer - producing a finer edge.

[Jack Curtis]

What I mean we don't spend enough time polishing on the polishing stone - so the grit has a chance to break down and get finer - producing a finer edge.

Thanks, Joel. Do you think using a nagura on the polishing stone helps in this regard?

[Joel Moskowitz]

No. The natura creates slurry but does not break it down.

[Jack Curtis]

Thanks again, Joel.

[David Weaver]

If you have a fine stone (like 8k+), it's unlikely that the nagura will be as fine unless it is made from the same stone or unless you purchase an asano tomo nagura (something few people will do), or a nagura from a reputable dealer that is from the same place as the signed naguras.

We use the term nagura in woodworking, but there are many levels of naguras. If you have a hard stone, it's likely that the grit from the nagura itself is doing more of the cutting, because it is coarser than the base stone (which unless it has been abraded by something else, has likely had the surface worn a bit and settled into polishing).

If you want to try what joel is referring to, all you have to do is continue honing and remove most of the swarf and water from your stone. Hone as the stone is drying out and watch the edge that you're polishing, and notice that it's starting to get a bright polish. When a stone cuts cloudy, and then same stone works up to a polish, the edge is becoming finer as long as the polish is reaching the edge.

That kind of stuff is not too useful for most work, but if you want your paring chisels as fine as possible, and your smoothers as fine as possible, that will improve things. Before you get to that point, though, the edge needs to be prepared well, as the stone's cutting speed slows down the more you're polishing, and any flaws left in the edge (nicks, deep scratches that weren't removed, etc) will just stay there.