Sharpening stone question

[Jerome Hanby]

Looks like I need a couple of stones. I'm not going to do my major sharpening on them, but it looks like for touch up and specific tasks (like prepping card scrappers) i need two stones, on in the 1000 ball park, one in the 4000+ ball park. Was watching the Chris Swarz card scrapper video and I think water stones similar to what he was using would do the trick. Any suggestions? I'm thinking 3" width just in case I want to use my sharpening guide...

I found a description of a class Chris was teaching where they listed the tool guide and listed the Norton 1,000/8,000 combination stone under sharpening as a good value, but seems like I've see some bad feedback here on the Norton stones...

[Jim Koepke]

I have Norton stones among others. I like them, but I am sure there are better.

My King is a 4000 and seems a lot harder to scuff than my Norton stones.

I used to have the 4000 as my finest stone. Moving up to an 8000 was worth it in my opinion.

My 1000 is mostly for removing small chips or if I go too long on a blade before sharpening.

My feeling is for grits less than 1000 abrasive sheets are fine. There isn't a lot of times that it is needed unless one is buying a lot of used tools. I think even then it is less hassle to use the abrasive sheets compared to all the flattening a coarse stone will require.

And remember, ymmv…

jtk

[Jason Coen]

Sounds like oil stones would be as good an option, if not better, if you're only going up to 4k. I've got a 10"x3" surgical black from Dan's that gives a similar finish to my Shapton 4k. For sharpening stuff other than a blade or a flat chisel, I'd rather use it than a waterstone.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Looks like I need a couple of stones. I'm not going to do my major sharpening on them, but it looks like for touch up and specific tasks (like prepping card scrappers) i need two stones, on in the 1000 ball park, one in the 4000+ ball park. Was watching the Chris Swarz card scrapper video and I think water stones similar to what he was using would do the trick. Any suggestions? I'm thinking 3" width just in case I want to use my sharpening guide...

I found a description of a class Chris was teaching where they listed the tool guide and listed the Norton 1,000/8,000 combination stone under sharpening as a good value, but seems like I've see some bad feedback here on the Norton stones...

Plenty of recommendations in threads here on different stones, but can you be more specific about your needs? I'm confused by your first paragraph. You say your looking for some stones, but you aren't going to do the majority of your sharpening on them. You say you need them for specific tasks, and mention prepping card scrapers. But your comment about not doing the majority of your sharpening on them makes me think your also sharpening other things, and using something else. So what else are you sharpening, and what are you doing it on? Why don't you think that method would work with these "specific tasks" like card scrapers? It might help us give you better recommendations. Maybe your current method could be adapted to scrapers and whatever other tasks your stymied on.

Hope I don't sound rude - I just thought more info might be helpful.

[Archie England]

Waterstones have provided me with superior sharpening than Ark stones, india stones, DMT stones, or sandpaper. Though all of these work, my Sigma power ceramic stones (Tools from Japan, so not the Select II stones) work so much better--IMO! I've bought and love several Chosera stones--400, 600, 1000, and 3000. I'm convinced that the newest Sigma 400 is superior to the Cho 400, but the Cho series is really fabulous, hard, long-lasting, great slurry, and extremely fast cutting. I'd rather do blade backs on my Sigma 1k, but that's where the Sigmas rock.

When you said "prepping," the lower grit stones--400 through 1000--are what's needed. But I would never stop at a Sigma or Cho 1k. I go to a Cho 3k or a Gesshin 4K. Both do a great job of prepping for the Sigma 6k, which is a truly amazing stone. It's just that good. So, at a bare minimum I would suggest either the Gesshin 400 or Sigma power 400 for rough prep work; the Sigma 1k, if you're putting a lot of metal on the stone, or most other stones, if you're doing small metal, like bevels; followed by the Sigma 6000 and a leather strop. Sure, the Sigma 13k is a 0.5 micron stone that leaves a fantastically sharp, polished edge; but it's unnecessary for most of what I do. And, adding green rouge to a stropping medium may well get you closer to 0.5 micron for less money.

To recap, three stones can do MOST of what any sharper wants--a quality rough stone (400), medium stone (1000), and fine stone (6k or higher). The dicey part is choosing the stones that jump easily and well from each step in the progression.

Best luck to you choice!

Arch

[Jason Coen]

Waterstones have provided me with superior sharpening than Ark stones, india stones, DMT stones, or sandpaper.

I agree with that up to the point that I start sharpening "non-standard" tools - gouges, scrapers, moulding plane irons, etc. Once you go a bit off-road, I think sharpening media with a harder base makes sharpening easier.

I can get a chisel or plane blade just as sharp with oilstones and stropping as I can with a full progression of waterstones that finishes with a Cho 10k. Oilstones take a bit longer and I won't enjoy the experience quite as much (especially when sharpening A2 and tougher steel), but I can't say the final result is appreciably different between the two approaches. They both work.

[Joel Goodman]

I have Norton 1K 4K 8K as well as the Sigmas that LV sells in 3K and (I think) 10K. All good stones. Nothing wrong with a Norton 8K. I would either get the 1K 8K Norton combo as a starter stone or get an 8K Norton and a DMT extra fine // coarse DUO sharp. The coarse will be good for flattening the 8K. And the fine will serve instead of your 1K waterstone. Or you can flatten with sandpaper. I wouldn't get over concerned with which waterstone is the best -- most of the standard brands are pretty darn good.

[Jack Curtis]

You're talking about spending more than $5 for something to sharpen a scraper? Please tell me you have other things to sharpen.

[Jim Matthews]

Using a stone to hone a scraper will lead to a channel cut into the surface.

Mike Pekovich was kind enough to show me a method (derived from Brian Boggs) using a DMT diamond stone and a wooden block fixture.
The wooden block has a kerf down the center just large enough to admit the card scraper.

It can be mounted in a vise to hold the works steady. This grips the steel firmly for filing.
Once the hardened steel is filed off, the block is used free hand over the DMT stone for honing.

The DMT stone was recommened for durability in this application.

I suppose you could clamp the block in your vise with the scraper barely above the surface and move the stone over the jointed edge.

In any case - stones weren't recommended for this application as they're considerably softer.

[David Weaver]

get stones different than what you already have. If you're sharpening card scrapers, you want something that is durable under pulling the edge of a card scraper askew (if you pull it in line, you'll surely get rows, and the softer the stone, the less they'll tolerate it).

the norton stones are good stones. They are fast cutting soft stones compared to some other new stones. They wouldn't be my first choice for stones that might sharpen off the beaten path things. I would rather have a hard stone for that. Oilstones, or the chinese stone that woodcraft sells if you understand using slurries and controlling water. If not, that stone is a bad choice.

[Archie England]

Aren't Shapton Pro stones the hardest stones for this type of operation--other than DMT, India, or Ark stones?

[Jerome Hanby]

I sharpen my chisels and hand planes on a Worksharp 3000. I get great results and it's quick and painless enough that I'll actually use it. After watching the Schwarz video on card scrapers, his approach seems to make a lot of sense and it doesn't look like a Worksharp would give me similar results. Plus I'm thinking that a final step on a stone (plus latter touch ups) might give me a little sharper results after doing my Worksharp routine. Again, I may be all wet on this (pun not totally intended<g>), but I think the procedures that Schwarz shows for preping the card scrappers look simple (and best for me, require little skill or touch) on a stone. I think trying something similar on the Worksharp would give me cruder results.

And I don't take it as rude at all. I'm coming at this from left field. Any sharpening I've done prior to getting the Worksharp has strictly been in self defense and done poorly (currently my only stones came in a little pouch from Harbor Freight). I've collected a few items as I've found them on sale (from Woodcraft) thinking I have to get my sharpening game up to speed, got a granite surface plate, a Veritas Mk 2 honing guide, and a Veritas burnisher before buying the Worksharp 3k. I think I need to add some stones and I'll have all my bases covered. I'm just trying to keep that buy once, cry once spirit and get something I can use without a lot of trial and error.

If I spend a little more that I really intended and get a DMT lapping plate, do you think some of the Norton combo stones would be a good fit. Most of the knocks I've seen on them concerns their initial flatness. I see they also have a collection of four stones, 220, 1000, 4000 and 8000. All totaled,that would be about $400, about twice what I started out wanting to spend, but if I can buy once and be covered...


Plenty of recommendations in threads here on different stones, but can you be more specific about your needs? I'm confused by your first paragraph. You say your looking for some stones, but you aren't going to do the majority of your sharpening on them. You say you need them for specific tasks, and mention prepping card scrapers. But your comment about not doing the majority of your sharpening on them makes me think your also sharpening other things, and using something else. So what else are you sharpening, and what are you doing it on? Why don't you think that method would work with these "specific tasks" like card scrapers? It might help us give you better recommendations. Maybe your current method could be adapted to scrapers and whatever other tasks your stymied on.

Hope I don't sound rude - I just thought more info might be helpful.

[Jerome Hanby]

You're talking about spending more than $5 for something to sharpen a scraper? Please tell me you have other things to sharpen.

I have chisels and hand planes plus some nebulous plans to try building a few planes. I like my Worksharp, but I don't have anything to get a real comparison. I have no desire to jump into a grand quest for the ultimate edge, but having a decent set of stones seems like a reasonable goal.

[Jack Curtis]

I have chisels and hand planes plus some nebulous plans to try building a few planes. I like my Worksharp, but I don't have anything to get a real comparison. I have no desire to jump into a grand quest for the ultimate edge, but having a decent set of stones seems like a reasonable goal.

Well, that's different. For chisels and plane blades we can all chat on for weeks. For a scraper though, for me a pieced of sandpaper, and file, and a burin of some sort do the whole job in a few minutes.

[Archie England]

Think of waterstones in terms of horsepower & cylinders: 4, 6,or 8 cylinders will get you there--so all waterstones will do the job. Some are more economical or more more powerful--in the end, it's what suits you and your needs.

Economical can be specified as initial cost vs ultimate cost. E.g., a cheaper stone that uses up quickly may actually cost you more in the long run than that stone costing double but lasting 4x longer.

I, personally, would classify Nortons as Lower HP 6 cyl engines: not much muscle to fix problems but excellent for normal sharpening. And, only the 1, 4, & 8k stones are worth spending money for. The 220 & flattening plate gave me fits.

[Rob Fisher]

I have both a work sharp and the norton 220/1000 & 4000/8000 with a DMT C/F duo for flattening. I think you should be able to do the scraper setup with the work sharp sandpaper on glass platens. Just remove it from the machine and use whatever grit is appropriate as though it were a stone. All you are doing is refining the filed edges and faces so they are smooth and 90 deg to each other. If you are using the ruler trick that should work too. Regarding the norton set, I like the 4000 and 8000 stones but the 220 is useless as it dishes just looking at it and the 1000 is just ok. The norton flattening stone is junk and I have never used mine. I'm not a fan of the set because of the poor flattening stone and the 220 stone. The 1000 doesn't excite me, but the 4000 and 8000 seem great for a beginner, which I am. I can get equally sharp edges from the work sharp and the norton stones. I seem to like the stone more as they are simpler, fewer grits to progress through, but the work sharp is nice for certain things including the leather strop disk. I only have the work sharp because I got it super cheap when sears goofed on the pricing. The nortons I got before I knew anything about sharpening. I currently lust after Stu's Sigma power set but cannot justify the $$$ for the little work I do and the good results I get from the nortons.

[Jerome Hanby]

Thanks for all the great info! Think I'm going to skip the Norton set and just buy one of their combination stones. Will probably get the 1000/8000 stone. I've already got a granite surface plate, so at least to start, I think I'll use it and sandpaper to flatten the stones with an eye towards getting the DMT lapping plate if I ever hit a good price on one.

[Dale Cruea]

I sharpen my scraper cards on a DMT diamond stone. I have a 90* and a 45* fixture/block to hold the scrapers at the proper angle.
The green DMT works and I think it is about 1200 grit if I remember correctly.

I have used my water stones but you have to keep moving the block to keep from gouging the stone.
I find that a stone works better for me than a file and is not as rough.

[Jim Matthews]

Is the worksharp a spinning machine?

I don't see how you could safely hold a card scraper on something that's applying force laterally - it's a recipe for flying Ninja stars.
Sandpaper on a substrated or using a block over the diamond stone seem safer, and probably just as fast... without the unintentional Ninjitsu.

[Rob Fisher]

Is the worksharp a spinning machine?

I don't see how you could safely hold a card scraper on something that's applying force laterally - it's a recipe for flying Ninja stars.
Sandpaper on a substrated or using a block over the diamond stone seem safer, and probably just as fast... without the unintentional Ninjitsu.Yes, it spins glass platens with PSA sandpaper attached. And I agree using it while powered up is looking for disaster, perhaps I didn't make that clear initially. I was suggesting removing the glass platen, which you have to do to change grits and is easy, and using the sandpaper on the glass platen as you would sandpaper on a granite surface plate. I'm not a ninja but I prefer to keep my martial arts practice in the dojo.