Bandsaw....Cast Iron w/ Riser or welded steel frame....which is better?

[George Farra]

Hi Guys

I'm going to pull the trigger on either the Grizzly G555X w the riser block or the Rikon 10-325. Both can resaw 12" boards, both come with a fence although for resaw I may want to invest in something better.

Is there any issues with the cast iron design w/ riser block being able to tension a blade for resaw? I realize that niether of these saws can actually accept a true resaw blade so I'll be using a 1/2" (maybe a 3/4"??) and cleaning up the boards afterwards.

I know both saws are fantastic, just trying to figure out the benefits of the rikon design over the grizz

Thanks

George

[George Farra]

Also....Grizzly states floor to table height at 44"....can anyone tell me the floor to table height on the Rikon?? Its not stated on thier website. I'm 5" 6" on a good day :)

Thanks

George

[Neil Brooks]

The Rikon is listed as 39-1/2" from floor, table height (vs. 43-44", for the Grizzly).

I can't answer your question, directly, but WILL say ... I have the 555X w/some minor upgrades (https://picasaweb.google.com/neil0502/BandSawStuff?authuser=0&feat=directlink), and I simply love it.

Pretty sure you don't lose, either way. I HAVE, however, heard tell of a few people whose riser block didn't sit totally square, on the frame, causing slight alignment issues. It resulted in a part swap, or a trip to the local machine shop....

[Matt Meiser]

I have no experience with the Rikon but I did recently go from a 14" cast iron Rockwell with riser to a 17" welded steel Grizzly. The difference was night and day. Even if the Grizzly was 3" smaller it would still be a lot nicer saw for resawing, etc. I haven't tried finer work on it yet but most say the 14" saw is better there.

[glenn bradley]

As a plus I would see the fact that cast iron model will accept the myriad after-market accessories designed for that format. Also, cast iron is proven for saws of that size over time. The grizzly's height probably follows that resawing is generally done on larger saws and the primary purpose benefits from the work being closer to eye level. My dad is also not as tall as some and building a 2" high platform out of 2x4's and ply as a work "stage" is not difficult. The Griz design also does not require that you use their stand and you could build a shorter one that fits your requirements perfectly. Griz may even sell the saw without the stand. Worth a toll free call at least.

The Rikon is well reviewed. Both saws have had their share of poor reviews but, not any more than ANY car, dishwasher or other tool. All things are subject to human error at the manufacturing or purchaser's end of the process. I would feel comfortable with either saw but would find the availability of after-market possibilities that the Rikon does not offer, an influence on my decision.

[George Farra]

Thanks everyone for your input. I pulled the trigger on the Rikon. Even though the long standing CI design has more aftermarket, I know that Kreg stuff can be fit onto the Rikon i f I need the fence upgrade. I also just wanted to set up the tool and get started rather than have to spend time modifying anything so the Rikon's 39.5" inches puts it at a more comfortable height for me.

Much appreciatted

George

[Van Huskey]

I see you bought a saw while I was posting! That has to be a record, ask about two machines and buy one in less than 45 minutes! BTW as you will see in the post I agree with your decision!


OK we are talking about 14" saws. It seems the focus is on resawing. I consider 3 basic components to a bandsaw that directly effect resaw (not counting fence and blades). I will list them in no particular order: 1. Power, here we are at a wash. 2. Table size and height, here the Rikon has a small edge. You want a relatively low table for resawing, I like a higher table for contour cuts 3. The ability to tension a good resaw blade. Here is where I give the nod to the Rikon. The 14" cast saws are clones of the 70+ year old Delta design. When you add a riser block it really pushes it well past the designers limits and begins to impact the ability to tension bi-metal blades. Bi-metal blades are the best blades for resawing that I recommend for a 14" wheel, but some people have had good luck with carbide tipped blades. Bi-metal takes more tension than carbon blades. I also prefer wider resaw blades, you can resaw with 1/4" blade but the results are better and more repeatable if you use a wider blade. My bottom line is although you can get decent results resawing from a 14" cast clone it is by far not the best tool for the job. Most of the steel spined saws have the ability to put more absolute tension on a blade while keeping deflection low enough to not be a factor.

14" cast clones can be excellent saws but they do have their limitations and tall resawing is one of them, not saying you can't do it just that it is not as easy.

The other criteria I look for in a good resawing bandsaw don't matter here since like power it is a wash with these saws.

The one thing I would stress is a proper blade for the job, this thread has a little information: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?149862

If you have set your budget and do want to purchase new the Rikon is probably your best choice, just be aware that if your budget is flexible there are some saws not too far up the budget ladder that are even better suited to resawing than the 10-325. The next saw up the chain would be about $300 more than the 555X.

[glenn bradley]

Thanks everyone for your input. I pulled the trigger on the Rikon

Congrats George. Please post a thread and tell us how the setup went and so forth. This will help the next guy who is in the same position you were ;-)

[George Farra]

will do! cant wait to get my new toy :)

[George wilmore]

You will be very happy with the rikon 14". I bought one this summer and I really like it. You will have to buy a good blade, the one that comes with is not great. It was easy to to set up not many parts need to be put together.

[Thom Porterfield]

George, I doubt you'll be disappointed.

I have the 10-325 and other than a couple of bad TimberWolf blades, haven't had a complaint. Right out of the box, I was able to saw 1/16" veneer out of an 8"-wide board with the no-name 5/8" blade that came with it.

The fence that comes with the Rikon is . . . adequate. It's not a great deal better than clamping a board on the table. So I wanted to install a better fence, and looked at the Kreg, longingly. Well, I was at Woodcraft the other day and asked the guy there about the Kreg. He said: "There's a problem: On the Rikon, the blade exits the table through a slot in the front. The Rikon's fence support rail ends just shy of that slot, allowing removal of the blade. The Kreg, however, mounts on the face of the table, across this slot. To change blades, you'd have to dismount the Kreg fence."

Imagine my disappointment. He pointed out the fence that comes on the 18" Rikon--sitting right next to the 10-325. The blade slot is still through the front of the table, but the fence on the larger saw has a neat mounting system, whereby you undo a couple knobs and it slides off slick as butter in July. When you put the fence back on, it registers exactly. So I asked, "Why can't they do that on the 14" saw?" I looked at the mounting holes on the smaller saw's table, and darned if they don't look EXACTLY the same as those on the 18" saw. I didn't have the time to check it out further, nor the money to buy new equipment (I'd already exceeded the budget SWMBO had allotted), but I sure will later on.

Meantime, I'm using the Rikon fence, and it's really not so bad. It has a scale, adjustments for drift, etc. It's just a bit funky when you want to move it to a new location, then when you tighten down the knob, it tends to change position. Still, it's better than not having a fence, and the saw is better than not having one.

[Curt Harms]

Also....Grizzly states floor to table height at 44"....can anyone tell me the floor to table height on the Rikon?? Its not stated on thier website. I'm 5" 6" on a good day :)

Thanks

George

I have a Rikon 10-325. I wanted more than the 7" resaw height my previous band saw had and figured I'd get something capable from the get-go of resawing 12"+, rather than buying something intended to resaw 6" then modify it. I don't know the factory table height for the 10-325, I made my own base. The reason is the same as yours, I'm 'vertically challenged'. If I were to redo mine (and I may, someday) I'd make it the same height as my jointer/planer and table saw. Right now it's about 39". From the base of the Rikon saw body to the table is about 19 7/8". The table of my Jet J/P on its mobile base is 34 1/2", my saw is 34 7/8" on its mobile base. So if I were doing it again I'd make the base about 14 1/2" or 15" including any wheels/casters/whatevers. I'd guess that having a bandsaw table higher is better for scrolling-type work, a lower bandsaw table might be better for resawing. I kinda think the larger saws from Hammer/MiniMax/Aggazani(sp?) have tables around 35"-36" off the ground.

[Bill White]

I would like to see why there is a difference between the CI and the welded frame. I just don't know. Any help out there?
Bill

[Van Huskey]

Bill, be aware that the differenbces discussed here only apply to these two models, not a general discussion between CI and steel spined saws. Some of the best BS ever made are still CI. Northfield (US) and Centauro (IT) both make incredible CI saws. The "problem" with CI is the cost, both in the raw material, fashioning it and SHIPPING. Welded steel saws started to pop up in post WWII Europe due to shortages in materials and the need to replace alot of machines that were destroyed. They have replaced CI saws across the board except at the very top level and the 14" cast Delta clone. The 14" saw is light enough that is can be still made in CI taking advantage of Asian labor markets. CI especially when there is a lot of it helps dampen vibration. A welded steel saw must be better balanced because it doesn't dampen vibration as well, something manufacturing is better able to acomplish than 100 years ago. A cast iron saw can be as rigid as a welded steel "box spined" saw but it just takes a lot more material because CI is solid and not hollow.


This is just to say you can't make a blanket CI vs steel judgement on bandsaws, like most other things you have to compare model to model.

[David Kumm]

I would like to see why there is a difference between the CI and the welded frame. I just don't know. Any help out there?
Bill

Cast iron absorbs vibration, steel transmits it. When cost wasn't so much a factor, cast iron was the material of choice for machinery. Cast iron saws often used steel bottom wheels and aluminum uppers as the frame absorbed the vibration. As foundries disappeared, steel became the method of construction. Over the past 10-15 years the improvements in strengthening the steel frame of the saw coupled with the use of cast iron in the wheels has created saws on par or almost on par with the old cast iron machines. The big high end cast iron saws were generally direct drive and known for being smooth. On little saws the material used is less important than the quality put into the tool as the technology is there to make good or bad with either material. Dave

[Van Huskey]

Just a couple of points about vibration absorbtion. It is done by turning vibrational energy into heat and is properly referred to as damping capacity. Cast iron's structure allows for a higher damping capacity.

[David Kumm]

Just a couple of points about vibration absorbtion. It is done by turning vibrational engery into heat and is properly referred to as damping capacity. Cast iron's structure allows for a higher damping capacity.

Bill, Van answered your question better than I while I was typing. The old large CI saws were set to run at higher speeds as well. The old Tannewitz saws were generally set at 8400 fpm or about twice what the resawing norm is now. If you ever get to see and old Yates, Tanny or Oliver run it is pretty sweet although pretty scary to see that blade going that fast. I'm not sure how the steel saws would handle that speed although it isn't needed for wood. Dave