Why do I need to spend $100+ for draw bore pins?

[Rick Cicciarelli]

The simplest tool ever made as far as I'm concerned...a tapered metal rod. Why does everyone sell them for over $100??!??
This should be a $20 tool. What am I missing and why does it look like I am going to have to spend this kind of money for a set?

[Joe Bailey]

you don't need to spend that much.
go to the last page of this Schwarz article.

[Joe Bailey]

What? You want the link too?
(sorry)
http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/cSchwarz/z_art/drawBoring/drawBoring1.asp

[Rick Cicciarelli]

Nice! Thanks! Why would you heat the metal before whacking the wood handle on? Wouldn't heating the metal cause it to expand slightly, so when you whack the wood handle on it, the handle will loosen up once the metal cools and shrinks again??

[Matt Radtke]

I believe the trick is to make the hole undersized a bit. Your shooting for the metal to char the wooden handle, which gives it better grip. Pretty sure old, tang-style chisels were the done the same way.

[Frank Booth]

Great article! Even I can make those..lol. easy peasy

[Zach Dillinger]

You don't need $100 drawbore pins. In fact, you really don't even need a drawbore pin...

[Jerome Hanby]

Well....if I were selling those tools, you would need them because you can't be a real man much less a good woodworker unless you buy a set from me...better make that two sets just to be sure. Since I don't sell them, I'd go find a sears and buy a set of those companion punches that the Schwarz talks about.

[Jack Curtis]

Drawbore pins have eccentric tapers such that as you turn them they gradually draw a tenon further into a mortise. This is very different from the pins Chris talked about, which are just ground round pins tapered from bottom to top. So, how much would you charge to make such pins? I wouldn't do it for $100 a pair.

That said, you need not pay that much. I've bought two pairs for less than $50 per pair plus shipping, purchased used from the UK.

[Marko Milisavljevic]

I was just in the same boat last week, wondering why are these things silly expensive. I'm going Chris S. route, and I couldn't find items he describes at Sears, however there is a vendor on fleabay right now with 6 of them in stock (was 8 until I bought 2 a few days ago), search for "NEW SET PUNCHES ALIGNMENT TOOL SET 8 PIECES"

[Mike Holbrook]

Sure it would be fairly easy to make a tapered steel rod and chances are such a tool could be of use

I think the reason the ones Ray Iles makes are not cheap is they are very precisely made tools. We are talking about tools made to test the size and placement of the drawbore hole, not just fit the hole. The wooden pin used in the hole has to snake its way through the joint. If the size or placement of the hole is off even a small amount, the joint will not tighten or the wood pin or other parts of the joint will break. The RI drawbore pin has to fit well, yet it needs to be able to firm up the joint like the pin will without enlarging the hole. The eccentric shape has to be precise so that twisting it will tighten or loosen the joint to test it without changing the joints shape. In order for the pins to accomplish their assigned task they have to be made to a tight tolerance and a strange asymmetric shape at the same time. I have no idea how this is even done.

[Wes Grass]

I suppose you don't technically *need* to spend $100 on drawbar pins. But considering that $100 won't get you anywhere close to a smoothing plane from Brese, or even all that far with LN or LV, you may as well spend it on the pins.

[Bruno Frontera dela Cruz]

Why not chisel a taper on your peg, chamfer the hole in your tennon a small bit and wack away with your hammer? I have done this for years and never a a problem with the peg breaking our the joint being anything but tight.

[jamie shard]

219679

I made a set of these over the holidays using Craftsman alignment pins. Now that the metal is in the handle, I can't see what size I bought but they were less than 1/4" at the tip and tapered to more than 3/8" --- so perfect for what I needed.

I stripped the paint from the metal using citrus-based stripper.

Then I drilled a hole into the handle blank and used my smallest mortise chisel to make the hole octagon shaped.

I inserted the pin into the handle blank so that I would be able to see how the hole was aligned (it wasn't perfectly plumb/square to my handle blank).

Then I made octagon handles (without a lathe) trying to stay with the axis of the pin. I used a half round file for the curved sections and a block plane and chisel for the flats.

When everything was okay, I epoxied in the handles.

I think I used BLO and a light wipe of tung oil varnish.

Obviously these are fairly simple creations, but I'm sure they'll work great.

Edit: I think the pins were 7$ or 8$ each.

(The two drawbore pins are actually much more similar in size, the camera angle is making one look smaller than the other. I used a micrometer to make sure I was pretty close in sizing a matching pair. Of course, I didn't go for perfection on these.)

[John Coloccia]

For whatever reason, people keep missing the point that a proper draw bore pin needs to be a modified cone so you can tighten joints without damaging them in the process. Sticking a drift pin into a handle IS cheap, but it's also nothing at all like the $89 draw bore pins that Ray Isles sells, so the comparison is really not very fair.

Antique draw bore pins that I occasionally run across (wish I had bought some when I did) all have this funny curve to them, allowing one side to fit flat against the business end of the joint, and also allowing a little twist of the handle to tighten the joint.

As someone else said, there is no way I would make those for $89 a pair.

If you don't want a draw bore pin that works like this, then you don't have to spend $89 on them...you can just stick a drift pin in there.

[jamie shard]

John, could you explain why the modified (flattened? ie. not circle but elipse cross section?) cone is necessary? I'm seriously open to learning something new.

Edit: I read the explanation on TFWW and because the tapers are so exaggerated in the drawings, I'm not really picking up the point.

Edit2: Hmm, maybe I'm getting this... if I make a 1/16-1/32 flat on one side of the pin and then soften that, I think that would provide the additional functionality. The way I'm understanding it is the flat would make sure the pin stays against the mortise hole bottom (nearest the joint) of the hole and then when it is rotated, it wedges the top of the tennon hole (farthest from the joint).

[John Coloccia]

John, could you explain why the modified (flattened? ie. not circle but elipse cross section?) cone is necessary? I'm seriously open to learning something new.

Edit: I read the explanation on TFWW and because the tapers are so exaggerated in the drawings, I'm not really picking up the point.

Edit2: Hmm, maybe I'm getting this... if I make a 1/16-1/32 flat on one side of the pin and then soften that, I think that would provide the additional functionality. The way I'm understanding it is the flat would make sure the pin stays against the mortise hole bottom (nearest the joint) of the hole and then when it is rotated, it wedges the top of the tennon hole (farthest from the joint).

The ones I've seen are more bent than flat. It's as though they made a tapered pin and then hammered it or pressed it until one side of the cone forms a straight line and the opposite side takes on a curve. A regular cone is straight lines all around. To really duplicate the functionality, you could keep the flat that already exists on one side of the cone, and the remove material everywhere else to relieve it so. It's difficult to describe, but think about it like this.

Draw a sharp V.

Draw a line right up the center of the V.

Now, bend the tip of the V until the one line that forms the V is parallel to the line you drew up the middle.

Does that make sense?

Drift pins really do work OK. You just have to be a little careful with them. It's easy to lever a bit too hard and bruise the edge of the hole. It also doesn't lock in place, so using them in pairs to check a fit is very difficult unless you drive it in with a hammer...and then you really risk damaging the joint. A draw bored joint is so flipping strong that it can takes quite a bit of damage to really make a practical different, other than bruising the outside hole and making a cosmetic flaw.

A real draw bore pin just works better. You put it in, give a little twist and it sorta locks in place. No hammering, no levering. You can see, though, that it's going to be more expensive to make, and it's kind of specialized, so you have a much higher cost. Still, you couldn't pay me $45 a pop to make these things (because it's $90 for a pair).

FWIW, I use a drift pin for few draw bores I do every couple of years. If I find anymore antique ones, I will snatch them up, though. If I start doing a lot more of them, I would buy the Joel's in a heartbeat.

[Zach Dillinger]

Drawbore pins, their necessity, and their shape was discussed in depth on the Old Tools List a week or so ago. You can read it here: http://swingleydev.com/archive/get.php?message_id=225123&submit_thread=1#message

You don't need eccentric taper, straight taper works just fine. As for bruising the inside of the hole on the tenon, what difference does it make? It isn't visible and in no way influences the strength of the joint. The peg itself will do much worse to the tenon hole, as well as the hole bored through the cheek of the mortise, but the peg itself will fill the gap there. In this case, simple really is good enough. But, I'm not one to tell someone they shouldn't buy more, or more expensive, tools. If you want to spend the money, go for it. Just don't think its the only way, or that the shape is necessary.

[Randy Briggs]

Here's the ones I made with a set from HF.
219689

[Bill Houghton]

I'm watching this discussion and thinking, "yes, the expensive drawbore pins are no doubt more precisely built for the application; but if someone doesn't have that kind of money, the cheap alternative is probably better than just sitting there staring at the work and wishing."

I'm curious, though, what benefit you gain by setting the Sears pins in a wooden handle. Generations of mechanics have used them just as they're delivered, often on assemblies that require a lot more grunt to align the parts than you'd ever need on furniture.

[McKay Sleight]

A drift punch will NOT do the same job as a tapered and oval shaped draw bore pin. Well worth the 100.

[Rob Fisher]

...I'm curious, though, what benefit you gain by setting the Sears pins in a wooden handle. Generations of mechanics have used them just as they're delivered, often on assemblies that require a lot more grunt to align the parts than you'd ever need on furniture.Alignmeny pins are often struck with a hammer so the metal end is useful. Drawbore pins are intended to be twisted into place, not struck. A larger wooden handle is easier and more comfortable to grip and twist. You certianly don't have to put wood handles on, it's just more comfortable and easier to use.

[jamie shard]

+1 on the wood handle for twisting. The octagon shape is to help do that easier.

[jamie shard]

To really duplicate the functionality, you could keep the flat that already exists on one side of the cone, and the remove material everywhere else to relieve it so. It's difficult to describe, but think about it like this.


This really did help, thank you for the description!

[Joel Moskowitz]

I'm watching this discussion and thinking, "yes, the expensive drawbore pins are no doubt more precisely built for the application; but if someone doesn't have that kind of money, the cheap alternative is probably better than just sitting there staring at the work and wishing."

I'm curious, though, what benefit you gain by setting the Sears pins in a wooden handle. Generations of mechanics have used them just as they're delivered, often on assemblies that require a lot more grunt to align the parts than you'd ever need on furniture.

The primary purpose of drawbore pins for woodworking is to allow very quick clamping and testing of the shoulders - stick pin in joint, twist, you are done. real ones (the oblique cone) don't distort the holes. They are far faster than using clamps for a test fit. If you don't have real ones in your budget, just use bar clamps. Drift pins distort the holes and remove at least some of the offset - so you get a more visible joint with less offset. (even PW article on draw bore pins mentioned the added distortion using drift pins - but they didn't understand there use as a clamp)

[Todd Hyman]

Great discussion guys. Thanks for the information.

[Zach Dillinger]

A drift punch will NOT do the same job as a tapered and oval shaped draw bore pin. Well worth the 100.

It might not do exactly the same thing, but you don't need it to. I've done dozens (hundreds perhaps) of drawbored joints with a tapered drift pin. Never had one problem.

I have no doubt the oval tapered pins are nice to use. I just hope that people realize that they aren't necessary to do good drawbore joints.

[ray hampton]

I use drift punch to align holes before and have to agree that Cam punch are not the same as drift punches

[John Coloccia]

It might not do exactly the same thing, but you don't need it to. I've done dozens (hundreds perhaps) of drawbored joints with a tapered drift pin. Never had one problem.

I have no doubt the oval tapered pins are nice to use. I just hope that people realize that they aren't necessary to do good drawbore joints.

FWIW, I've done mortises with a sharpened and ground screwdriver, and it actually works well. I recommend that to people who'd like to save a few bucks. A proper mortise chisel works better.

In fairness, the OP's question was why a pair of actual draw bore pins (as opposed to drift pins with a handle) costs $90. I don't think anyone suggested that you need them to do a draw bore M&T. Frankly, there's a bunch of "draw bore pins" that probably aren't worth purchasing because they're basically just drift pins with a handle.

It's kind of like mortise chisels that have tapered sides. You don't need them them but if you look at a lot of antique ones, a lot of them have tapered sides either from manufacture or from modification. There's a reason for it, which someone may or may not agree with agree with or want, but it's good to understand it.

[Zach Dillinger]

FWIW, I've done mortises with a sharpened and ground screwdriver, and it actually works well. I recommend that to people who'd like to save a few bucks. A proper mortise chisel works better.

In fairness, the OP's question was why a pair of actual draw bore pins (as opposed to drift pins with a handle) costs $90. I don't think anyone suggested that you need them to do a draw bore M&T. Frankly, there's a bunch of "draw bore pins" that probably aren't worth purchasing because they're basically just drift pins with a handle.

It's kind of like mortise chisels that have tapered sides. You don't need them them but if you look at a lot of antique ones, a lot of them have tapered sides either from manufacture or from modification. There's a reason for it, which someone may or may not agree with agree with or want, but it's good to understand it.

Agreed. The original question was "Why do I need to spend $100 on drawbore pins". The answer is you don't. Certainly the tapered ones work well. I'm sure the newer style pins do as well. My main interest in woodworking is understanding how antique tools work, and what the craftsman of old did with them. Again, nothing against the guys who buy and use the new ones.

As for "actual" drawbore pins, meaning the ones that are copied by the modern makers, I'd have to see really old examples to believe that they were intended to be eccentrically tapered and not just made that way late in the hand-tool era as a gimmick (laser guided drawbore pins anyone?). Not Victorian pins, but 18th century or earlier pins.

[Joel Moskowitz]

Zach,
I don't know of any 18th century examples one way or another but 19th century examples abound. In addition the oblique cone design is shown in several catalogs (middle - late 19th century). And of course they are still sold in modern catalogs like McMAster for use in the steel indsutry - although these are meant to be turned with big wrenches.

Their primary purpose - to clamp joints for test fitting isn't really important if the tenon shoulders are made by machine. With the right setup you can do thousands of M+T joints and never have a problem with square. But when you saw the shoulders by hand test fitting the panel both to ensure that the joints close up and the panel is square is a more necessary operation. Here is where having a quick clamping setup pays off. Setting up a pair of bar clamps will work, but takes far longer to do and of course if the joints close up, and you glue and pin them there is no need for bar clamps. It is so much easier, so much faster, and far less expensive to have a pair of drawbore pins (I believe they were sold in pairs but I would have to check) than to either have to own bar clamps (people specialized) or have an extra workspace to set up the clamps. With draw bore pins you don't need to clear off your workbench. Another time savings. You can even test fit with the rail still in the vise in position to be trimmed.

Obviously for a onesy twosy M+T operation it might not be worth the cost. For a power tool shop with consistent shoulders it might not be worth the cost, but as a quick clamping system for a hand sawn joint by someone who isn't perfect all the time, they are fast and easy.

[Zach Dillinger]

Joel,

I'm with you 100% on their utility. I use my drawbore pins almost every day in my shop, making window sash and other assorted things 100% by hand. Perfection, I assure you, is rare in my shop, and the ability to pull a joint together after sawing it a little "gappy" is much appreciated. Drawbored mortise and tenon joints are my favorite joint (yes, even more than the mythical dovetail).

I appreciate very much the time and effort you've put into researching tools and in no way mean to say that your pins aren't worth the money. I'm sure they are. But regular old tapered pins work too. That's all I'm trying to say.

I'm not sure why drawboring has become such a hot topic the last couple of weeks. Is it the Follansbee episode of The Woodwrights Shop that is driving people to ask about it?

Zach

[Joel Moskowitz]

Zach,
have you ever tried real drawbore pins?

[James Taglienti]

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?102448-Who-makes-the-best-draw-bore-pins

[Zach Dillinger]

Zach,
have you ever tried real drawbore pins?

Joel, I have not tried a purpose made drawbore pin. I've always been happy with my tapered pins. I'd be happy to try one, if I knew anybody that had one. If they were that much better / easier to use, I'd certainly consider changing my tune.

[Mike Holbrook]

It seems the question raised by this post is what value added there might be in drawbore pins specifically constructed for the task vs simpler or hand made tools not designed for the same functionality. Certainly some features of any tool may have more or less value to any individual user. I don't think anyone is trying to say the job can't be done without the specially constructed pins. At the same time there are specific, subtle enough to be hard to understand, design features of the pins made by Ray. I don't think there can be any question that Ray's tool has specific design features and is made to exacting tolerances in an effort to provide a better tool.

I am about to build a new bench and sawbenches. I became attracted to drawboring from articles by Chris Schwarz on building these specific pieces. Chris explains that drawboring can make a mortise and tenon of less than perfect dimensions look and function better than a nearly perfectly made joint without a drawbore. Being relatively new to this work, a tool which will help me make a better joint is attractive. I am also concerned that I may not have enough clamps, particularly large clamps, for my projects. I am interested in using drawbores on my immediate and many subsequent projects, hopefully eliminating the need for much clamping. Sure I could certainly learn to do the work without specifically designed testing/fitting pins. However, if having these two simple small tools will help me make better fitting drawbores in less time, saving the space necessary for more clamps...I think they are a good investment in a "less is more" hand tool. Older eyes may have trouble seeing down into small holes that wind through mortises and tenons. A tool which will help me test the specific fit in a hole & joint that we all know needs to be made to close tolerances seems like a bonus to me. I can also see how someone who has already made a large quantity of these joints may have developed a skill set which allows them to just know how to make the pieces fit with less functional tools.

[Joel Moskowitz]

Mike,
Just to Clarify, Drawbore pins are not used for testing and fitting drawbores. They are used for quick clamping to test the fit of the shoulders and square of a M+T joint. All the drawbore pins in the world won't make a poorly fitting joint fit correctly, but being able to test fit a joint, and trim a shoulder without having to set up bar clamps or distort the offset of the drawborn joint is usefull. You cannot do that as effectively with drift pins.

[Mike Holbrook]

Joel you say "Drawbore pins are not used for testing and fitting drawbores"...then you say "They are used for quick clamping to test the fit of the shoulders and square of a M&T joint." This seems like something of a contradiction to me. You mention test fitting a joint and trimming a shoulder..isn't this adjusting a part of the joint after discovering via drawbore pins that the shoulder was not quite flush?

According to the Schwarz, Hand Tool Essentials, drawboring resurrected "The joint doesn't have to be perfect. The mechanical interlock of drawboring means that your tenon's cheeks don't have to have a piston fit with your mortise's walls. In fact, you might be surprised at how sloppy the joint can be and still be tight after hundreds of years. Drawboring requires you to be careful only when fitting the tenon's shoulder against your mortised piece." Certainly an eccentric pin can slightly enlarge a hole that is slightly tight and or compact the fibers in the joint enough so that the wooden peg has a clearer or smoother path, Schwarz mentions this too. Seems to me the eccentric vs symmetrical drawbore pins simply provide the additional ability to tighten the joint up a little while in the joint, by turning them. Maybe it is this additional clamping like ability specific to eccentric drawbore pins that you are referring too?

I understand drawbore pins are designed to test the fit and temporarily hold the joint together not make the joint or dramatically alter the joint. Still one can adjust shoulders and slightly improve the pin path if there is a small problem revealed by a test fit. For my money eccentric pins are uniquely designed to do the job.

[James Carmichael]

You don't:
http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=62746&cat=1,43456

[Joel Moskowitz]

Mike,
If you saw your shoulders wrong the resulting F+P will be either out of square or have gaps. Easily corrected with a shoulder plane but you still have to assemble the joint and clamp it to find out what the issues might be. If you don't clamp the joint than you will not know if the gap is caused by a real problem or a slight hick-up.

You can clamp the joint two ways - with a pair of bar clamps - which works fine but needs space on the bench for assembly, for large doors might need two people, and is slow.

You can use Drawbore pins - does the same thing except doesn't require the space or the manpower and is a lot faster. Drawbore pins do not distort the joint holes. Drift pins, even fancy ones that are mislabeled as draw bore pins do. (even PW noticed that in the review).

Testing the hole alignment isn't needed, distorting the offset to "start the joint", or enlarging the holes ruins the compression that keeps the joint together over time.

[Mike Holbrook]

Great another alternative. Unless they just left it out of the description though, LV's drawbore pins are not eccentric. They do show a picture twisting them to tighten the joint but they mention wedging to draw the joint together: "Its tapered shaft acts as a wedge, drawing the joint together just as a wooden peg would, allowing a test fit prior to assembly." They offer 1/4" and 3/8" drawbores, Ray Iles makes 3/8" and 1/2", nice to have a 1/4" offering.

Joel, sounds like we are on close to the same page to me. Still seems to me the drawbore pins, especially the eccentrics, will be helpful in making sure the holes are properly sized and aligned to receive the wood pin. Certainly placing the drawbore in the holes and firming the joint up assures that the holes are about as aligned as they can be before driving the wooden pin. It seems to me more to the point that a straight tapered drawbore is "wedging" the holes together by leveraging the top edges of the holes whereas an eccentric would apply pressure more evenly over the entire hole, decreasing the chance of overly enlarging the tops of the holes during testing/aligning. If eccentric drawbores allows one to test and align joints with less chance of damaging the top edges of the drawbore holes, at least in my book, it has an end result of aiding in a better fit.

Certainly I understand the argument that a straight tapered drawbore pin works. I just don't see how the mechanical advantage of an eccentrically shaped drawbore can be denied, however small that advantage may be. I think we all know that the success of the drawbore technique depends on tight offsets of the holes in the mortise and tenon, so to my mind small advantages in testing, aligning and I still think arguably fitting become larger. We are not talking about a large sum of money here compared to what is often spent for what might be consider more touchy-feely, appearance oriented hand tool preferences.

[Zach Dillinger]

The holes should already be the correct size and shouldn't need to be properly sized. Any enlarging of the holes by the metal pin is negligible, as the wooden pin (if made properly) will also be tapered and will deform the holes, both the tenon and mortise cheek holes, when driving them in. Further, you don't really want to align the holes with the pin. That's the whole point of the drawbore, is to have the holes misaligned and then the final peg will draw them further into alignment. If you need the drawbore pin to align the holes, you probably have too much offset.

With regards to twisting the metal pin, I agree that twisting is easier but it is far from the only way. George Ellis, Bernard Jones and Nicholson all talk about using a simple tapered metal pin and driving it into the holes. This applies both to timber frame work and smaller scale joinery. Clearly, this isn't the only way but it is the most discussed way, at least in the literature that I read.

[Mike Holbrook]

I don't think the question is whether or not the holes are the correct size when made, although certainly some degree of error is possible. The question, as I understand it, has more to do with whether or not the offset of the holes is a proper distance for the specific species and grain of specific pieces of wood. As I understand it the offset may need to be altered depending on the softness/pliability/brittleness...of the specific wood. The reason for altering the offset has to do with how much the wood being worked will change shape during the entire process, both testing and driving the wood pin home. Sure the wood pin will change the shape of the drawbore holes. I don't understand how one might argue that driving a symmetrical, tapered, metal drawbore pin into offset holes want significantly alter the holes but a wooden pin, which we know snakes its way through due to its greater pliability, will change the holes?

I think the point is, eccentric drawbore pins offer the advantage of being inserted in offset holes without having to wedge their way through as much as symmetrical pins do. A thinner portion of the eccentric pin can be run through the hoes and the joint brought together via twisting the tool, equalizing pressure along a greater length of each holes sides. Mechanically this does seem like an obvious advantage to me, regardless of whether or not the job can be done without this mechanical advantage.

One of my greatest interest in the posts on the Neanderthal Forum has to do with the revival of old hand tool techniques. Obviously the rise of powered tools has resulted in the loss of methods, techniques, tool designs....It seems to me that the drawbore discussion speaks to the crux of this revival. I imagine these debates will continue and help to fuel interest in the relative advantages of using hand tools instead of powered tools. Certainly writers have to write about what they have experience with, making it hard to write about eccentric drawbore pins and their ilk since they have not been readily available to the general woodworking public. I am thankful that we have historically minded writers like Joel and Chris who take the time to research and experiment with older tools and techniques despite the fact that they often have little commercial significance, at least until their applicability to todays woodworker is proven.

So, far from beating a dead horse or belaboring a point, I think this thread is exploring exactly what this forum is designed to explore.

[James Carmichael]

After re reading te op, I felt compelled to come to Joel's defense: its easy to say what we think it shoild cost, after all, i write software and hear it daily.

If they were just simple taper pins, I'm sure isles wouldn't make them as I'm sure Joel (and everyone else) could get them cheaper elsewhere. I'll just pass on them and be glad there is a source for such obscure, quality tools.