Bench questions

[Derek Cohen]

I am about to build a new bench. My existing bench is 18 years old, has been modified many times over the years to keep pace with my changing approach to woodwork, and is showing its years. It is small - about 4'10" long. It is too wide - about 26". The top has been planed down so many times that the dowels I used to orientate the boards all those years ago are now showing half their thickness. Although the legs are spindly, the bench is really rigid as it is bolted to the wall (the new bench will be placed about 2 ft from the wall). The Record 52 1/2 vises are now hopeless. The front vise racks and the tail vise does not open unless you hold down the release lever while you turn the handle. And it is too dark. The Karri top may look exotic in pictures, but it does not reflect light well.


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ImagesOfMyWoodshop_html_m2feaf3e6.jpg


The bench has been a good friend but I still find it amazing that I managed to do so much work on it. I procrastinated and avoided building another as I generally dislike building shop furniture. Or using good wood that would better be used on furniture for the home. But now it is time for a new bench, a better bench.


I like the simplicity of a Roubo. I thank Chris Schwarz for his research and the information he disseminated. It has been educational.


Since building a Moxon vise (for dovetailing) a year ago I have come to recognise that my face vise needs (for planing edges) would now be best met by a leg vise. I plan to build one with a wooden screw (a most kind gift of Wilbur Pan), while the tail vise is a Benchcrafted wagon vise.


Generally I try and build as much as I can from recycled timber. I find a lot of old Jarrah roof trusses. These are dry and hard. They will be turned into the base.


Today I dug out the rafters that I thought would work best. These are 3"- 3 1/2" x 4"- 4 1/2" and around 80" long. I should be able to get four legs at 3" x 5". I am aiming for a 34" high bench.


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Bench build/1-roughbeams1.jpg


Question 1: Your opinion of these dimensions for the legs? What are the dimensions of your benches legs?


The top is to be 4" thick, 21-22" wide and 6 ft long, built from European Oak (which means it likely originated from Eastern Europe). One of the members of my local ww club bought a shipment imported by a failed business, and was selling it at a cheaper price than the local Tasmanian Oak, which lacks its stability and texture. This was jointed and thicknessed for me, and has been "acclimatizing" (aka lying around) for several months. There has been minimal movement.


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Bench build/2-top.jpg


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Bench build/3-top2.jpg


Two boxes at the top ... BenchCrafted tail vise and woodscrew ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Bench build/4-vises.jpg


Question 2: I plan to add rectangular dogholes. How far apart (my thoughts run to about 3"), and how close to the edge of the bench would you recommend (3"?)?


Question 3: For those using the BC end vise, what is the length of the cut out for the vise? How far along the vise do the dog holes start?


My intention is to build a wooden replica of the steel screw leg vise designed by BenchCrafted. The key feature here are the wheel guides.


Question 4: I believe Chris Schwarz has recommended that the screw for the leg vise is 12" below the top of the bench. Jameel Abraham I believe recommends 9" (but uses a steel screw). What would you recommend?


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Chris Griggs]

Question 1: Your opinion of these dimensions for the legs? What are the dimensions of your benches legs?


I believe mine are something like 5" wide and 3" deep (maybe 5.5x3.5). I too used recycled lumber so the dimensions were simply a function of the size of the beams I used after I finished flattening and squaring them. While I believe bigger may be better, in practice/function I do think 5x3 you'll end up with should work fine.



Question 2: I plan to add rectangular dogholes. How far apart (my thoughts run to about 3"), and how close to the edge of the bench would you recommend (3"?)?



3" apart sounds good, but put them as close to the edge as possible. (Maybe 1.5" centers if you can????)





Question 4: I believe Chris Schwarz has recommended that the screw for the leg vise is 12" below the top of the bench. Jameel Abraham I believe recommends 9" (but uses a steel screw). What would you recommend?


I'd recommend the higher. The less you need to bend over the better - 9" is still plenty deep for most edge clamping.

[Jim Foster]

My legs are about 6"x6"

I made a dog-hole glue-up for my Roubo but did not use it in the final glue-up of the top. Curious if I'll miss it in the end. My dog-holes were 3" apart

My leg vise screw is 9" from the top (See note)

Note: Bench height; 34" sounds high to me unless your tall (See disclaimer) I am 5'10" tall and my arms run a little long. My bench is 31" high and it still seems a little tall. I think the 12" and 9" differences in the distance from bench top to vise screw may be different due to different bench top heights, for a 34" bench, the distance from the top to the screw would have been 12"

Disclaimer: I freely disclose the fact that most of the guys on this forum are far more experienced than I am, so my opinions may be a little on the novice side.

[Matt Radtke]

Those dimensions sound great. I'd try to get the dogs closer to the front and probably a little closer together. I'll measure mine tonight.

[David Posey]

3x5 sounds like a great dimension on the legs, especially if you plan on using holdfasts in them. My legs were 4.5" thick, and I had to remove material from the back side to get the holdfasts to work.

I can't speak with much experience on the dog holes as I don't have a tail vise, but my inclination is to go with Chris in putting them closer to the edge.

My leg vise is 1' from the top of the bench, and I don't feel like it's too low. I usually rest one hand on the bench and turn the screw with the other hand, so it's not a strain on my back. I have a feeling I would do this even if it were three inches higher, and I appreciate the extra room at times.

A 34" bench heigth would be too high for me, but it depends on how tall you are and probably also how long your arms are. The recomendations I've heard for bench height from Chris Schwarz and Roy Underhill are that it either go by where the first joint of your little finger is when your hand and arm are relaxed, or where your knuckles are with your arm relaxed (don't remember which suggestion belongs to which person). I built mine to the taller dimension and trimmed the legs as needed.

Can't wait to see what you come up with. I'm sure it will be beautiful and well documented.

[Andrae Covington]

...Disclaimer: I freely disclose the fact that most of the guys on this forum are far more experienced than I am, so my opinions may be a little on the novice side.

Yeah I don't think I'm really qualified to answer any of Derek's questions, but...:)


...Today I dug out the rafters that I thought would work best. These are 3"- 3 1/2" x 4"- 4 1/2" and around 80" long. I should be able to get four legs at 3" x 5". I am aiming for a 34" high bench.

Question 1: Your opinion of these dimensions for the legs? What are the dimensions of your benches legs?

My glued-up legs ended up slightly over 5" x 5-1/2". I've never worked with Jarrah but as both a hardwood and a construction timber I imagine there would be no structural problems with 3" x 5". However, I would point out that a larger leg allows more room for mortises for the stretchers. You may have to push the front-to-back stretchers to a higher elevation relative to the side-to-side stretchers.


...Question 4: I believe Chris Schwarz has recommended that the screw for the leg vise is 12" below the top of the bench. Jameel Abraham I believe recommends 9" (but uses a steel screw). What would you recommend?

The top of my wooden leg vise screws are 9" from the top. Occasionally I wish for more depth, but Chris makes a good point that the lower the vise screw is, the more you have to stoop to reach it. Unless you keep stopping and sliding the tommy bar back and forth through the hole in the vise screw head, you really end up bending even lower than you might think as your arm pushes the tommy bar around in a circle. One of the nice features of the Benchcrafted vises is that the diameter of the wheel is much smaller than the diameter of rotation of the tommy bar on a wooden vise screw. On the other hand, two threads per inch goes pretty fast.

[bob blakeborough]

I am going to watch this thread intently...

I to am pondering over the height to build my bench. I am lucky as my lovely wife has given me the spare room in the basement to build a winter workshop, so I am going to build a smaller "practice" bench out of some cheaper pine for inside the house before I tackle my full size Ash bench in the shop next summer, so I am going to be able to test the height first. I am 6-1 but only have a 31 inseam, so my body is a bit lower to the ground but arms are not overly long, so I am thinking I might start out at 34-36 inches and cut off from there if it feel like it should be shorter...

If you don't mind me asking Derek, what are "your" dimensions? Haha! Height etc...How tall is your original bench and how did you find it for planing etc?

[Jim Foster]

Closer may be better, but when you lay them out and cut them, 3" seems pretty close, because the back of one is less than 2" to the front of the next.


Those dimensions sound great. I'd try to get the dogs closer to the front and probably a little closer together. I'll measure mine tonight.

[Sean Richards]

A 34" bench heigth would be too high for me, but it depends on how tall you are and probably also how long your arms are. The recomendations I've heard for bench height from Chris Schwarz and Roy Underhill are that it either go by where the first joint of your little finger is when your hand and arm are relaxed, or where your knuckles are with your arm relaxed (don't remember which suggestion belongs to which person). I built mine to the taller dimension and trimmed the legs as needed.


I have spent 20+ years working (hand tools) on a bench way too high by those recommendations. My current bench is 16 or so years old and has been modified to suit me better 3-4 times - one thing I have never felt inclined to do is shorten the legs. Just another point of view.

[Bill Gulletson]

Never thought I'd be giving Derek my two bits, or whatever the OZ equivalent is!
22 inches wide is a good width for me but why only 6 feet long? You've got the whole outback down there.

[Michael Peet]

Far be it from me to give advice to you, Derek, but I can actually help answer some of these as I have built a bench similar to the one you are contemplating.


Question 1: Your opinion of these dimensions for the legs? What are the dimensions of your benches legs?

I have no opinion on your stated leg dimensions (except for one point below). Mine are nominally 5" x 5".


Question 2: I plan to add rectangular dogholes. How far apart (my thoughts run to about 3"), and how close to the edge of the bench would you recommend (3"?)?

Mine are just under 4" apart, and 2" in from the front edge. Since mine are close to the edge they are bounded by the legs on either end; I spaced them to get a hole as close as I dared to each leg while keeping the spacing consistent between all the holes. One thing I do not like about my setup is that there is a ~6" space between the first dog and the wagon vise dog (because of the leg). Since you are considering legs only 3" thick, you can put your holes 3" in and not be bounded by the legs. I think that benefit might outweigh any negatives related to having the dogs an extra inch in.


Question 3: For those using the BC end vise, what is the length of the cut out for the vise? How far along the vise do the dog holes start?

It depends on the dimensions of your endcap; my endcap is just under 3" deep and the cutout is around 17" long. Note that the cutout under the screw only needs to be as long as the screw minus the endcap: somewhere around 13" or 14" in my case.


My intention is to build a wooden replica of the steel screw leg vise designed by BenchCrafted. The key feature here are the wheel guides.

People think the rollers are all there is to it, but the BC design also relies on a bushing with very tight tolerances around the screw in the front side of the leg. The combination of the rollers and the bushing is what allows the smooth movement. Not to dampen your spirits, but just something to note in case you weren't aware.


Question 4: I believe Chris Schwarz has recommended that the screw for the leg vise is 12" below the top of the bench. Jameel Abraham I believe recommends 9" (but uses a steel screw). What would you recommend?

The tradeoff is capacity vs. grip strength (and to a lesser degree, ease-of-access as noted up thread). All other things being equal, the closer to the top you place the screw, the tighter it will grip but obviously you will lose vertical capacity. I can tell you this: I put mine the recommended 9" down from the top and also lined the jaws with suede as mentioned in the BC instructions. The grip is out of this world, and I do not even have to crank it down very hard. If I were doing it again I might go at least an inch lower, although truth be told I have not run into a capacity limitation yet (but then again I've been using it less than a year also and the wagon vise sees more action than the leg vise).

Edited to add this: one key difference between the Schwarz and BC plans are the placement of the parallel guide: Schwarz's is below the stretchers while the BC design requires it to be above the stretcher to leave room for the roller guides. Therefore, even though the Schwarz plan specifies a screw location 3" lower than the BC plan, the parallel guide is also lower so the ratios are actually closer. After all, it is primarily this ratio of the distances between the parallel guide and screw and the screw and the top that ultimately dictate the mechanical force obtainable by this kind of vise.

In case you haven't seen it, I documented the build here: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?163291-My-Roubo-Build

Best of luck; I look forward to seeing what you come up with! I used jarrah once on a small project and it was some hard, hard stuff.

Mike

[Salem Ganzhorn]

Derek,
I built my first bench this year. I used BenchCrafted hardware as well. If you haven't already: read and re-read their installation instructions.

When I first started it seemed like the possibilities were endless. After puzzling over it for quite some time I came to realize once you pick the hardware there really are not many more decisions to make.

219628

I did a full write up of my build at ncwoodworker do net. The whole process including the thought and mistakes that went into it :). Search for "eyekode benchcrafted". The thread title is "Started my workbench!".

My legs are 4x5 3/4". They could be smaller and the bench still wouldn't rack. It is just the lumber I had.

My bench has rectangular dogs. I love them. They work great: easy to adjust, grip great (I use swede on the faces), never twist etc etc. I ended up using Jameel's plan for the dogs: Jameel's diagram (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_NrLnumDfM90/TCfH6B_oXTI/AAAAAAAACvw/mRdsiXJvaiA/s1600/BCbenchdog.JPG).

Mine are spaced 3 1/2" between the dogs. There are a couple critical dimensions:
- The minimum clamping distance is the distance between the dog on the moving vice and the first dog hole. After you do the math you will probably find like me it means the first dog must be embedded in the leg. Not fun to excavate but worth it.
- The distance to the second dog hole is just as critical in my opinion as I use it LOTS. This limits the width of the leg unless you want to excavate it too.
- The distance between your legs factors in as well as you don't want to have to excavate another leg!
- The distance from the front edge of the bench. If you want a sliding deadman (and I do recommend it) your holes will be a maximum of ~1 1/2" from the front of the bench. Otherwise you either weaken the deadman or the deadman would interfere with the dog holes. I think this distance works quite well but I don't have molding planes.

Here is a picture to illustrate the layout of my leg, vice, and dog holes:

219629

As for your question #3 it matters how deep you make your end cap and how big you make the moving dog block. My end cap is ~3" thick and the cut out is 16 3/4" long. But measure your own hardware!!!

For Question #4 I only have 7 1/2" from the top of the screw to the top of my bench. The way I got here is by trying to put ~1/3 of the distance between the top of the bench and the screw and 2/3 of the distance between the screw and the lower guide. I was concerned about this but really it works great.

One thing you didn't mention is how you will construct the top. I heartily recommend the split top. My top comprises of two ~3 1/8 x 11 x 80" inch laminated oak slabs. There is no way I could have safely handled two of these at a time! I am sooo glad I did the split top.

Good luck on your quest! I know you will take pictures :)
Salem

[Bob Jones]

My roubo legs are about 5 by 6. Anything 3in sq or bigger should be fine. I would suggest 3/4 in round dog holes and having then 5 or 6 in off the front. I did that and I use holdfasts in those holes all the time - especially for holding my Moxon twin screw vice. Good luck!

[David Posey]

Derek, this is a bit off topic, but while you're thinking about legs on a Roubo you might want to consider this. I remember reading in Roy Underhill's Woodwright's Workbook about him talking about legs that only go 3/4 of the way through the top. I looked it up and he notes that Bergeron and Roubo both considered this more sophistocated, and that the Dominy workbench was done this way.

If I made my bench over again, I'd try it this way, probably with the same rectangular and sliding dovetail tenons, just not all the way through the top. If I was concerned about the tightness of the fit, I'd either drawbore them to the top or use a foxtail tenon. Just a thought. I doubt it would have any impact on the stability of the bench, but I find it a bit more aesthetically pleasing, even if it does mean the joinery is harder to cut. You would have the advantage of having a top that's a bit easier to flatten since you wouldn't be planing across endgrain, so it is a bit of a tradeoff.

[Terry Beadle]

+1 watching this thread closely !

Yahoo! Go for it Derek!

[Bill Satko]

As for your question #3 it matters how deep you make your end cap and how big you make the moving dog block. My end cap is ~3" thick and the cut out is 16 3/4" long. But measure your own hardware!!!


I hope that this does not seem like a dumb question, but why does the travel and thus the cutout need to be so long for the tail vise. I mean I understand that it is probably easier to move the tail vise than to move to a new dog hole, but is it necessary to cut out the wagon mortise to its fullest possible capacity? Is there some trade off point there? Why have bench dogs every 3" then? I figured I would ask now instead of waiting until I finally get around to installing my wagon vise.

[john brenton]

I'm 5'11" and my bench at 33" is a perfect height for everything but planing. End work in the vise, chopping....all great, but planing, especially with taller woodies is tiring. I thought about trimming the legs down, bu instead I decided to put a couple of pieces of plywood down on the floor when doing lots of planing. Much better, and no sacrifice.

[Salem Ganzhorn]

Bill, you need to be able to open the vise all the way otherwise you give up some of the length of your bench. And of course you need to be able to close it all the way as well. Since you need to be able to open and close it all the way the length of the cavity has to do with the length of the screw. You could cut down the screw and guides but I wouldn't.

One of the great things about this style of vise is that it doesn't significantly weaken your bench. I can pound on the right side of my bench just like I do on the left :). So having a long open cavity is really not a big deal.

The only reason I see to shorten the screw is to reduce the length of the bench to the right of the right leg. It is quite a large overhang.

I like ~3" between the dogs because it means I don't have to move the vise much to switch dogs. Note each of my holes has a dog in it so I don't have to move dogs around. Just pop one down and pop another up.

Installation was not trivial. Making the dog hole strip took quite a bit of time. Both were worth it. The only thing I would change is to make the bench at least as thick as the end cap. This would make initial flattening easier. If you don't do this then you must get the bottom flat (and hope it doesn't move, mine didn't...) before you attach the end cap. Or do the end cap in such a way that it could be removed for flattening. But that would mean no huge dovetail, and I really wanted the dovetail :).

Salem

[Bill Satko]

Bill, you need to be able to open the vise all the way otherwise you give up some of the length of your bench. And of course you need to be able to close it all the way as well. Since you need to be able to open and close it all the way the length of the cavity has to do with the length of the screw. You could cut down the screw and guides but I wouldn't.

Thanks Salem. I looked at the video at Benchcrafted and realized the mistake in my thinking. I neglected to realize that cavity is also for the screw and guides, and not just the wagon mechanism.

[Dave Schwarzkopf]

Derek,

The legs on my bench are 4x4, if anything I wouldn't have minded 5x5. I actually get a small amount of racking from side to side, (none lengthwise, though) when I'm planing across the grain. This was my first project and could have been a result of user error, I could probably fix this with a diagonal brace.

I'll echo some other comments and agree that 3" is a good distance which should keep you from cranking on that benchcrafted vise too much between holes, but the closer to the front edge the better. 1.5" would be ideal in my mind, just for when you're trying to work an edge of a narrow-ish board and need the overhang. Mine are further in and I've run into several situations where I've had to be more creative than I wanted to be to find a clamping solution.

I'll have to measure where I ploughed out for the BC vise; I went for the longest throw the vise could handle, that way if I was clamping between the vise and the leg, I could fit wider boards, (you may not ever need to clamp this way as you have the Moxon). It's a good idea to plan for your base off-center so the hollow for the wagon vise ends at the leg so whatever you are clamping in that manner is pressed against the leg.

Lastly, my leg vise is about 9" down from the top, I do have the BC version of the vise though. I'm 6'4" the less bending I have to do to accomplish a task, the better. While I love my BC hardware, I've considered the LN and/or the Hovarter so I wouldn't have to mess w/ changing a pin.

Dave

[Jim Matthews]

I'm a fan of having the cabinet storage under the bench.
If that was a benefit of your previous bench, it may be missed.

I believe Benchcrafted has some clear photos of the Shaker bench that incorporates most of those features.
For what my hack opinion is worth, I recommend an alternative to the leg vise - a crochet with a leg perpendicular to the opening.

Clamping duty is performed by the veritas surface clamp, as on the companion sliding leg.
Bob at the Logan Cabinet Shoppe has a Nicholson derivative for his bench (http://logancabinetshoppe.com/blog/2010/05/episode-23/), and I adapted his clamping method to my bench.

Note that he has installed a wooden twin screw vise to the right hand end of the front apron.
I use a variation of the Moxxon vise for this purpose, and just put it away when not in use.

Will your bench top have a removable center panel? It appears that this is an overlooked advantage of the Roubo design - surface clamping.
I envision lining up the wagon vise with your dog holes, and the center for battens.

Bob's Nicholson features a clever gap built into the top, so that he can drop in a batten.
The batten is reversible, one way drops over the support frame and lies flush to the surface, the other way it is proud about 1cm.

I will follow your endeavor with great interest,
Jim
Westport, MA

[Joe Fabbri]

Derek, I'm glad the question of leg thickness has been brought up here. I was also wondering if 3" thick would be suitable, because I might be able to get some scrap 12/4 white oak from a local ship building project.

For a typical trestle bench, 3" thickness is fine, but for a Roubo, I'm wondering if a trestle would have to be added under the top, particularly for a laminated top. If you make the tenon and dovetail specified by Roubo, will you end up with enough bearing surface for the top? Would a 3/4" dovetail and tenon and 3/4" shoulders be too small? Also, aesthetically, the dovetail and tenons might look narrow.

It seems most people have been making the legs more massive, and I don't know if it's simply a matter of aesthetics (though I in a way prefer a sleeker rectangular leg), or if it's because many people have been making them from lighter weight construction wood (doug fir 6x6s). In Landis' book, the Roubo bench has 3-3/4" x (I believe) 5-1/2" red oak legs, and that's with a 5" solid maple slab top. For me something around 3-3/4 or 4" x 5 to 5-1/2" seems ideal, but I only have 12/4 on hand, and to laminate them seems excessive.

Derek, do you know yet what style of joint you will make? The traditional dovetail/tenon, or a single tenon? All the way through, or blind? And were you planning on adding a trestle under the top?

[Russell Sansom]

I don't have time to pose an argument, but for the last 45 years I've been happy with 3/4" x 1" dog holes, an inch from the front.
I don't like a lot of extra holes in my bench because of the embossing they can do on a fine of softer lumber. So, why not a dog hole every 6 inches and TWO in the tail vise, 3" apart? Or 3 that are 2" apart?
This gives you half the holes and the same versatility. It's a touch easier at flattening time, also. I think I picked up this idea from something Krenov said, but not sure. Anyway, it always worked for me. My tail vise is not captured, so in-out is very quick.
BTW, I mentioned in a previous thread, I couldn't pass up the opportunity to hand-cut 13 mortises! PLEASE don't throw me in the briar patch! It was instant training on big mortises. I started looking around for other ones to chop, and have been on the prowl ever since.

[Joe Leigh]

I'm a fan of having the cabinet storage under the bench.
If that was a benefit of your previous bench, it may be missed.

I believe Benchcrafted has some clear photos of the Shaker bench that incorporates most of those features....



The heavy, rigid and monolithic base of my Shaker style bench solves any racking concerns and provides plenty of sdtorage as well. It is also fitted with a leg vise and tail vise using square dog holes. I believe it is the best overall package for the home shop.
Just my $.02...

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q226/lj61673/DSCN2146.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q226/lj61673/DSCN2169.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q226/lj61673/DSCN2159.jpg


http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q226/lj61673/DSCN2152.jpg

[Jim Matthews]

Some guys keep a Ridgid Tool calendar in their shop.

I have a 8x10 glossie of THAT Breese/Benchcrafted beauty.
Adapting a sliding rail was the hardest part for me; I made mine from a bannister cutoff using a roller skate wheel.

It's SOOOoooo purty!

[Derek Cohen]

I think I mentioned that the new bench was to be 34" high. That is wrong - that was (is) my existing bench. The new bench needs to be about 31" (for my height of roughly 5' 10" ... we measure here in the metric -178cm). Some may say that 31" is still high but I am used to a higher bench, and dropping 3" is significant.

I began preparing the stock for the legs yesterday afternoon, that is, finding boards in my wood pile for laminating into the desired 5" x 3" size. There were issues with the stock I have.


As I showed earlier, I have a number of rough sawn rafters approximately 3" x 4". Once jointed it became evident that only 2 legs could be created from two boards, and that the other 2 legs would require laminating 3 boards.


The two-board laminations would have to be joined edge-to-edge, and the three-board laminations not only joined edge-to-edge but include a face board to increase the thickness.


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Bench%20build/6-legs.jpg


A central mortice would occur at the join. Not happy.


It is now Sunday. We spent the morning at the beach. This gave me a chance to switch off and think about the options. A little lateral thinking gave me the answer.


Choices ...


Firstly, I could go out and purchase Jarrah boards to make the legs. There a couple of reasons why I do not do so. It is not simply that these would be expensive. Expensive? Very! I estimate that each leg would end up costing about $125. That is about $500 for the legs, and we have not yet got to the stretchers.


Why is Jarrah (Eucalyptus Marginata) so expensive? Because it has been over-logged in Western Australia for over 100 years, with the timber being exported around the world for bridges and roads. The trees only grow in Western Australia - no where else - and the forests have been decimated. The logging continues, in spite of the frequent protests from the Greens, because the public generally places money above the environment. I really do not wish to support this industry, and 90% of the Jarrah I use comes from salvage - old roof beams, old flooring, etc. Some from the renovations in our house (all the roof beams are rough sawn Jarrah), and some from skips (dumpsters) when houses are demolished (but now there are businesses buying up the old timber - that's OK with me. At least it gets a second life, and I will - and do - happily purchase that).


Secondly, let us not forget the most important factor here - this is a workbench, not a piece of furniture for the home! Yes, I would like to build a bench that is as faithful to the principles of Roubo, and guided by the recommendations of my friends on the forum, but it is still just a bench. Anything I do will be totally overkill compared to the bench I have been using for the past 18 years. I must add that, prior to the current bench (skinny cretin that it is :) ), my previous "bench" was a door over trestles. This lasted 7 years while we lived in and restored our previous house. So I have had 25 years working with poor benches. I do believe that anything better than I had will last another 25 years, at least.


So ... I thought about what I had to work with, what wood I had on the rack, and hatched the following plan which I shall describe, and then go off and cut the parts to show you later ..


The solution is ... may be - I will hear from you I hope ... to create a sandwich with full width boards on the outside. Inside, the two sections I previously showed will be used, BUT one piece will be recut to sandwich a thick section which is centred in the fill. Now a mortice can be created in solid, un-edge-joined timber.


Since the added laminated with be about 3/4" thick each, I anticipate that the legs end up about 5" long x 4" thick.


Fast forward about 5 hours ...


As I mentioned in an earlier post, I try and re-use reclaimed timber. Here is an example. Woolly and twisted ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Bench%20build/10-legs2.jpg


One side gets jointed then, because the thickness of the other side is so uneven, I use the bandsaw to cut to the approximate thickness before planing out the saw marks ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Bench%20build/11-legs2.jpg


The Jarrah "infill" was ripped to width on the tablesaw. There is now enough meat in the centre of each leg to accept a mortice ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Bench%20build/12-legs2.jpg


The wooden screw for the leg vise has a 2" diameter. This will easily fit into the 3" central section in these legs ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Bench%20build/13-legs2.jpg


The legs are yet to be glued up. Once done, final dimensioning will be done. The sides (end grain) could be stained to match the fronts. Or I am toying with the idea of mitering and wrapping boards around the infill.


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Bench%20build/9-legs2.jpg


The legs are now 5" wide and 3 5/8" thick.


Each leg weighs 10 kg (22 lbs).


The bench top is expected to weigh 80 kg (172 lbs).


Still to add in stretchers, chop, and end vise.


Your thoughts?


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Jim Foster]

Looks like furniture... :)

[Jeff Heath]

Derek

I'm enjoying reading this, as I'm in the process of starting my own Roubo bench, which will be my 5th workbench. I'll share what I've learned from my previous four. On my previous bench, which had a sliding tail vise similar to what you're doing with the Benchcrafted version, my dog holes were 6" apart. That's too far apart. 3" gives better combinations, and less time looking around for a spacer because you're "in between" on a board length.

Also, keep your dog holes as close to the front of the bench as possible, so you can still clamp long, thin boards at the edge of the bench for moulding work, etc....My next bench will have them 1.5" from the front edge.

Make your legs as big as possible. I'm sticking with 5" X 5".

I sure wish I could get a nice stack of that jarrah you're working with. I'm still sorting through my wood pile to figure out what species I'm using for my top, which I want at least 4" thick, and hopefully 5". I promised myself I would use what I have out there, and I've got a large stack of maple, cherry, and white oak that I sawmilled about 10 years ago.

Keep em' coming.

Jeff

[David Keller NC]

I think I mentioned that the new bench was to be 34" high. That is wrong - that was (is) my existing bench. The new bench needs to be about 31" (for my height of roughly 5' 10" ... we measure here in the metric -178cm). Some may say that 31" is still high but I am used to a higher bench, and dropping 3" is significant.
Your thoughts?


Derek - Like you, I've about 20-30 yrs of woodworking experience, though I'd really hesitate to call the first 10 years of that "experience". ;-)

Probably also like you, I switched over to using handtools in a big way some years ago from being an all-power-tool kind of guy. Episodes of woodworking shows that picture a guy "roughing out" a box top by standing the board on edge and pushing it between the fence and the table saw blade at full height, 15 degree tilt makes me really cringe (there was just such a situation shown on "The Woodsmith Shop" yesterday in my local area).

I've a couple of comments about your bench. First - think strongly about the height. I've built a number of benches, all in the 32" - 34" work surface height range. That dimension was taken from my WW machines, and before I knew that a handplane, a backsaw and a chisel were far superior tools to a jointer and a table saw. Like you, I am 5'-10" tall. I wear 31" X 32" jeans, if that helps establish relative leg/torso length comparisons.

My current bench was intended to be a "test" bench - specifically built to test the Schwarz recommendations for bench height in "Workbenches". To reduce the amount of work & wood that went into it, it's relatively small - about 6' long, 22" wide, and has round dog holes (way easier to drill out than build square dados in a dog hole strip). The most interesting aspect of this bench is its height - 29" from floor to bench surface.

I have been -shocked- at how appropriate this bench height is, and how inappropriate my previous bench heights have been. And this bench is still a little bit too tall - perhaps by an inch - for British-design wooden planes. It's about perfect for me and metal, "Bailey" type planes.

The point here is don't build this bench too tall just because it's a quantum leap from what you're used to. Be bold - it's doubtful you will wind up building it too short, and cutting the legs off of an assembled bench to make it a bit shorter isn't a walk in the park. For one thing, doing so typically means that your stretcher heights are now wrong. It's far, far better to build it to the height you need rather than adjust it later.

Second comment - About the legs; be completely unconcerned about whether you're going to bury mortises or vise screw holes along an lamination seam. I've done exactly that on some aspects of 3 previous benches (they were built with modern, "yellow" PVA glues), and there is no difference, presuming you use plenty of glue and clamping pressure during the lamination.

Third comment - if you're going to use a wooden screw for your leg vise, consider installing a thick dowel that is mortised into the leg and fits through a hole in the vise chop whose top surface is a fraction of an inch above the top surface of the wooden vise screw. The threads on any wooden screw are quite fragile compared to the alternatives, and there is a real risk of badly damaging them by dropping a large, heavy board's edge onto them when attempting to grip it for working the edge. This isn't theoretical - I've seen exactly this damage on antique benches with leg vises (and wooden screws).

[John A. Callaway]

I say dont miter up your corners.... you only risk the miter joints opening up years down the road....

[Jim Foster]

My current bench was intended to be a "test" bench - specifically built to test the Schwarz recommendations for bench height in "Workbenches". To reduce the amount of work & wood that went into it, it's relatively small - about 6' long, 22" wide, and has round dog holes (way easier to drill out than build square dados in a dog hole strip). The most interesting aspect of this bench is its height - 29" from floor to bench surface.
I have been -shocked- at how appropriate this bench height is, and how inappropriate my previous bench heights have been. And this bench is still a little bit too tall - perhaps by an inch



I agree, I chickened out and made mine about 30.5 or 31" high and If I build another I'd make it 29", maybe a little lower. I'm not sure I could easily lop off 2" based on the stretchers and leg vise, but shorter would be better.

[Mike Holbrook]

I am waiting on my copy of the Benchcrafted Split-Top Roubo plans to arrive. Then I will be going to pick up the wood I will need...

I have been researching the new Hovarter vises...hovartercustomvise.... They appear to be much faster and easier to use. Len now offers: single handle face vise, double handle face vise, leg vise, wagon vise. I believe they all use the same mechanism, works like a quick adjusting vise only needing the handle(s) to tighten against the work. The face vise is available with a 24" gap between the rods it slides on and it will open to a full 12.5". Some ability to skew the jaw can be built into the vise. The rods are designed to work without grease, oil etc. to save messing up work. They look like traditional vises. I just got a note from Len saying he has used his vise in a Moxon as well. I am trying to figure out how these guys might work on my bench plans. Not sure whether I want a Hovarter as a side vise, in a Moxon, or in a bench on bench with an extension table like Derek's. One can purchase the hardware from Len, much like buying the Benchcrafted hardware, then build the wooden parts to taste.

[Zahid Naqvi]

Hey, Derek are you going to keep this thread updated with the build? if so I will probably put it up in the FAQs, because it is bound to gather some useful debate as you progress.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Zahid

I think that many will miss posts if it is in the FAQ. I will post updates as they take place, in a new thread each time. I think that this is easier to follow. I will keep a record of all posts on my website as well. I had not planned to document a bench build - hopefully it will be a short one.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Matthews]

Do you mean to say that the FAQs are like printed assembly instructions?

[Zahid Naqvi]

@Derek, not really, the FAQs is just a sticky on top of the forum, it does nothing more than provide a "link" to any post/thread. The original thread remains unchanged, so if you choose to keep this thread updated with your progress there will be no impact on this thread whether it is linked to the FAQs or not. As you may know the default profile of SMC is setup such that newer posts always show up at the top whenever you visit the forum. In my experience this remains the most popular choice, although some will go into their SMC profile and change their viewing preferences.

@Jim, in case you were not kidding when you made that comment. Typically in forums old topics which have been discussed ad nauseam will keep popping up periodically. So some of us though that an FAQs sticky on the top will be a good place holder for all such topics which tend to get buried away in the old archives. Now the FAQs has slightly evolved into a sort of bookmark or favorites of the neanderthal forum. Any topic which is deemed worth preserving is put in the FAQs for future reference.

[Derek Cohen]

I was asked why I chose the Benchcraft tail vise.

The choice of tail vise was made on a number of factors, one of which was the space available for the bench. My bench is placed against a rear wall in my garage/shop. The length of the bench is limited by a cabinet, to the left, and a door, to the right. It comes down to the longer the bench, the shorter the tail vise ... or, the longer the tail vise, the shorter the bench.

The Benchcraft tail vise is notable in that the handle remains in one position, that is, does not "screw out" or "screw in" in length. This translates into a short vise, which means I can build a longer bench. The bench size increases from a little under 5' to a little over 6'. This may not sound a lot, but it is a massive change for me.

I was initially planning on building my own version of the Benchcraft wagon vise. However, when Chris Vesper visited with me last year, he mentioned that he had purchased the BC tail vise. When I asked why he had not simply built his own - since he is a top class machinist - he explained that the design of the vise places great stresses on the mechanism (it screws at the side of the captured dog so as to run close to the edge of the bench), and that to accommodate this, the steel work needed to be heavy duty ... and that the BC was built like the proverbial tank. He did not believe he could replicate it. That sold me on the BC for the tail vise.

I hope to get to the bench dogs tomorrow. These will be rectangular, not round, so I have to prepare them before I glue up the bench top. Why rectangular? Simply because I believe that they will hold work more securely than round dogs. They have a broader face and will not twist. Plus, I wonder how many bench (dog) builders realise that the dogs need to incline slightly (I am using 2 degrees) towards the work piece? This is difficult to do if drilling for a round dog. Yes, it is possible to cut and angle a flat upper section of a round dog, but this thins and potentially weakens the dog, making it more susceptible to bending under stress. A rectangular dog is more work, both in planning and build, but it worth it. This does not preclude one from adding holes for bench accessories, such as hold downs.

So today I plan to finish off the legs. Their dimensions are 5" wide and 3 5/8" deep. I have cut the tenons, and what is left is to prepare one for the leg vise and all for the mortices for the adjoining stretchers. While I will not complete the base until after the top is done (as the length of the stretchers is determined by the dimensions of the top since all facing edges will be co-planar), I need to have everything ready to receive the top once it is glued up just so that I can work on the top.

To decide the length of the legs I first had to finalise the height of the bench. The present bench, which I built 18 years ago, was a remnant from a pre-handtool era. Much modified over the years to better deal with the demands of handtools, it still retained that one feature of the powertool user - height. It is 34" high. Too high for comfortable handplaning at my 178cm/5'10".

Chris Schwarz recommends the "pinky test", that is, the height of the bench should be situated where your pinky joins your hand when your arm is held at your side. I did this and the result was a bench height of 30". To test this out I place a double layer of bricks in front of the bench, and planed a board while standing on the bricks ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Bench%20build/Benchheight1.jpg

Interestingly, this did feel so much better. It moved the focus of strength from my arms and shoulders to my hips and legs (which is what one is taught in karate). So the length of the legs was calculated for a bench top of approximately 4" thickness (it will end up a little under that), and the tenons were cut. Pictures of the legs tomorrow.

One other point: One change begets other changes. With the lowering of the bench, I shall need to build a new Moxon dovetail vise. The whole idea of the Moxon is to raise the work up high. The existing vise was built for a 34" high bench. To work with the same ease, the new Moxon will need to work 4" higher. Hence a new, taller Moxon.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Matthews]

One other point: One change begets other changes. With the lowering of the bench, I shall need to build a new Moxon dovetail vise. The whole idea of the Moxon is to raise the work up high. The existing vise was built for a 34" high bench. To work with the same ease, the new Moxon will need to work 4" higher. Hence a new, taller Moxon.Regards from Perth Derek

Why not just put the bricks (or something that stacks up to the same height) under the current Moxxon?

I met a tobacco farmer in Eastern Tennessee who was cutting a series of notches out of the rafters in his pole barn, all lined up one after the other.
When asked why, he opined that his mule had a foul temper each morning, from brushing the rough lumber on his way out of the stall.

I inquired as to why the farmer didn't just cut a trough in the dirt floor, instead.
He replied, "Cause it's his ears what's too long!"

[David Keller NC]

I hope to get to the bench dogs tomorrow. These will be rectangular, not round, so I have to prepare them before I glue up the bench top. Why rectangular? Simply because I believe that they will hold work more securely than round dogs. They have a broader face and will not twist. Plus, I wonder how many bench (dog) builders realise that the dogs need to incline slightly (I am using 2 degrees) towards the work piece? This is difficult to do if drilling for a round dog. Yes, it is possible to cut and angle a flat upper section of a round dog, but this thins and potentially weakens the dog, making it more susceptible to bending under stress. A rectangular dog is more work, both in planning and build, but it worth it. This does not preclude one from adding holes for bench accessories, such as hold downs.

Derek

Derek - This comment might not be relevant, because it looks like you have multiple reasons for wanting square dogs. In my case, I use Lee Valley's brass round dogs, and the slope of the flat surface on the dogs is inclined towards the work at about 2 degrees. Ergo, no need to drill holes at anything other than a 90 degree angle.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi David

I would not use brass dogs. What if a blade clips one? I often plane up 1/4" thick boards (for drawers and boxes), and the amount of leeway would be too small.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

With a 1/4" thick board, I don't like to clamp between dogs - I find it tough to get a secure hold without bowing the work - I prefer a thin-lipped planing stop.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Joshua

I agree that there is the danger of bowing thin boards in this situation. Light pressure is sufficient to hold the work, plus the wood I use is hard and stiff - not much flex.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Keller NC]

Hi David

I would not use brass dogs. What if a blade clips one? I often plane up 1/4" thick boards (for drawers and boxes), and the amount of leeway would be too small.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I've done this before (running a blade into the brass). It did -very slightly- chip the very edge of the blade, but it wasn't a big deal. I suspect the result would've been different had I used steel dogs (steel square ones are quite common on the antique market).

I also have and use wooden ones, but the reason I don't prefer them (the wooden ones) is that they've a tendency to shrink/expand with humidity changes that make removing and relocating one a bit of a hassle.

[Chris Griggs]

On a couple occasions, I've actually shaved a bit of brass of the top of one of my LV dogs. Put a big chip in the plane blade which was a bit of a pain to grind out, but the plane was fine. Like David, I'm sure glad that the dog wasn't steel and/or the plane wasn't wood. I'm happy to keep using brass dogs, but I can definitely see the advantage of wood ones.

[Jeff Bartley]

Derek,
It sounds like your well on your way to a solid design! I built a similar bench a couple years ago and can offer it's dimensions as a reference. I too am 5'10" and my wife has accused me of having gorilla arms. 32" tall has worked well for me but I stand on a mat that's about 3/4" thick. As for the dogs, I used square dogs spaced 4" apart center to center and 2 1/4" from the edge. The dogs start 1" from the edge of the slot for the BC wagon vise. This has been a great feature as it allows me to clamp rather pieces between the first dog and the shuttle-dog. The next dog is centered in the leg. I drilled an access hole in the leg and made a special shorter dog for that hole which has a dowel that passes through a hole in the top of the leg and projects just far enough into the access hole to allow me to push the dog up. It seems complex in description but it's really quite simple.
I also built two slabs just under 12" wide each separated by a 2 1/4" gap. A pair of grooves on either side of the gap hold a shelf that is made in four sections so that I can remove sections as necessary if I need to put a clamp through the center of the bench. And I do use it as a tool tray, though not much lives in there permanently, mostly just what I'm using for a given project.
On the other end I built a leg-vise with a run-o-the-mill metal screw, 9" from the top. One day I plan to incorporate rollers and a UHMW guide bushing to it but it works just fine for now. The best thing to be done with a leg-vise is the addition of some suede leather. The stuff is just amazing!
Can't wait to see your new bench!! Hope this helps! Jeff

[Derek Cohen]

I was not planning an article on building a bench - there are so many and very well done too. Nevertheless, here is the current status:


Firstly the bench top has progressed from a a bunch of separate glue- ups to two groups ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Bench build/Progress5.jpg


... and finally (today) to a single panel. This lacks the bench dog strip and outer board ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Bench build/Progress10.jpg


I started with 4x2s that were dressed for me. However these all required re-jointing and re-thicknessing before I could use them (moral of the story - do them yourself when you need them). The current panel is pretty flat and square, and will only require a light handplaning to remove any fine ridges. The expected thickness of the benchtop is 3 1/2". I am not too fussed that this will not be the 4" desired by many. The bench is still likely to be in the 325-350 lb range.


The expected width of the bench is likely to be 20 - 21", which is ideal. However, I am short one 2" wide board for the dog hole strip and, try as I might, there are no European Oak boards available. I could use Tasmanian Oak as a substitute. It is very close in colour and grain. I may be forced to do so. What I am planning to try first is to use the offcuts for the doghole strip, and join them together. This should work.


Here is a test dog hole strip I made. The router bit I had was too short and I could not get the depth I wanted. Still, it provides an idea of what I will do. Note that all dog holes angle at 2 degrees. They have 3" centres.


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Bench build/Progress6.jpg


The legs have been glued up. They are a three-layer lamination, which I discussed previously.


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Bench build/Progress3.jpg


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Bench build/Progress4.jpg


More later.


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Carl Beckett]

Always fun to see your work progress Derek!

A thought: I did my dog hole strip in contrasting wood (a light colored wood was the bench (Elm), and the dog centerline was cherry and a narrow strip of walnut on each side for the sandwich).

I like the contrast - breaks up the surface of the bench and looks great. If you cant find the match you want - you can just go the other way and intentionally contrast it.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

It seems a lot of folks do the dog hole strip by routing the dogholes into one or two pieces of wood and sandwiching them - I made mine by dressing a single board to thickness of what I wanted my dogholes to be and carefully cutting the pieces off with a backsaw and and a bench hook, and then ripping the little "notch" for the larger "head" of the dog. I used a spacer block to line up each piece on the next board, clamped it in place and drilled pilots for screws. Glued it with waxed screws holding each piece inbetween the holes in place, removed the screws and glued the top piece.

Made the glue up take longer, but I managed to get my doghole strip out of a piece that was shorter than I would have needed had I routed.

I've started to wonder why I've never seen anyone else do it this way, and then it dawned on me that nobody else was dumb enough to sell their nice routers out of disdain for the thing. Anytime I part with a tool, even if it's been a year since I last used it, I always find a need for it a week later. . . .

Uhm, sorry for the aside.

This is looking nice! I really like the details on the end of the chamfers, they look great in that wood.

[Tom Vanzant]

Joshua, I think I'd either left the screws in place or replaced them with a pair of dowels since all the thrust on the dog must now be born by the two glued joints in shear. I may be overthinking it, but...

[Derek Cohen]

More questions !!!!!


I cannot find any plans in regard to placement of the tail vise, and no one on the internet has blogged about this. My understanding is that the screw must travel behind the legs, which means that the dog hole strip must be glued in behind the legs as well (as the dog holes in the bench must line up with the dog hole in the vise).


The latest version of the BC tail vise allows for either left- or right hand placement of the plate/dog hole in the vise itself. So it is possible to move the plate in- or out. This offers some customisation of the bench dogs.


The issue with bench dogs - for those unfamiliar here - is that it is better to get them as close to the side of the bench as possible. Also, I am building rectangular dog holes, rather than round dog holes. This means that they need to be pre-build and inserted into the bench at glue-up.


The legs are 3 5/8" deep. Do this mean that the closest I can get to the side of the bench is greater than this dimension?


Other information desired: (1) what is the overhang at the rear of they bench for the tail vise? (2) what overhang did you use for the front of the bench? (3) Did you include a planing stop and (a)what size (I am thinking 2" wide to span the dog hole strip), and did you (as I plan to do) to place it in line with the dog holes?


Fastest reply would be most appreciated as I have some time to work on this today.


Regards from Perth


Derek

[David Posey]

http://benchcrafted.com/Downloads.html

Those links should have templates for how to set things up. It's obvious on some of the pictures that the dog holes don't have to be that far in. I think most people leave enough overhang past the legs that they can install the vice wherever they want on the end without the screw having enough travel to hit the legs. I don't see a measurement on the site for the length of the vice, but I believe you already have it in your possession so you can just measure it and place your legs accordingly.

There is potential for a problem with the leg tenon being in the way of where you want to place the dog strip. Just another thing to consider before you actually get started with more glue-ups.

I'm not clear what you mean about the overhang at the rear of the bench. Do you mean the distance from the legs to the end of the bench?

It's 1:30 in the morning here, so I apologize if none of this makes sense. It's entirely possible that I misunderstood most of your post.

[Joe Leigh]

"The legs are 3 5/8" deep. Do this mean that the closest I can get to the side of the bench is greater than this dimension?"

If I understand the question correctly the answer is NO.

There are no dog holes directly above the legs so their dimensional depth does not matter. The distance of the dog holes from the front edge of the bench is equal to the thickness of the front laminate plus the offset of the front edge of the doghole in the doghole strip, approx 3/8" or so.

It is very important to lay out your doghole strip so it does not conflict with leg placement.
Check out the doghole FAQ on the Benchcrafted site

As for the tail vise placement, there is a template available online that shows how the vise is placed. It doesnt matter what your front laminate dimension is, 1-1/2" or 1-3/4" as the template is indexed from the inside edge of the front laminate. This ensures that the dogholes in your strip are perfectly centered over the doghole opening in the tail vise plate.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Last time I looked at the Benchcrafted tail vise document, I think it mentioned in there somewhere that the guide rails where 18" long; you overhang on that end of the bench needs to be long enough to accomodate that. So 18" plus a little extra for fudge factor, plus your endcap, I believe. Unless you move things inwards and put the whole mechanism "behind" the leg.

I think most of the examples in Chris S. books had overhangs around a foot or so? I could be off base here.

If you look at some of the examples on the bench crafted blog, they have the dog holes in line with the legs on some benches. Some folks just interrupt the dog hole strip where the legs are. They've a blog post on their blog where they mention putting a dog hole into the leg, (round in this case) with a cross hole drilled to help get the dog out and clean out shavings and such.

[Salem Ganzhorn]

+1 on reading the instructions :). Mine are 1.5" from the front of the bench and it works great!
Salem

[Paul Saffold]

+1 on reading the instructions :). Mine are 1.5" from the front of the bench and it works great!
Salem

Salem, do you have a sliding deadman on your bench? If so, are their any issues or conflicts with the dado for the deadman being close to the the dog holes?
Thanks, Paul

[Salem Ganzhorn]

Paul, Yes I have a sliding deadman and yes there can be interference problems if not done carefully. There is a picture of it in this post: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?179662-Bench-questions&p=1850961#post1850961

I followed the benchcrafted instructions and this puts the dog holes ~1.5" from the front of the bench.

Note that the distance from the front of the bench to the dog holes is the maximum thickness of the sliding deadman. 1.5" worked out to be a good compromise for me. Holdfasts work in the deadman. And the deadman still has a nice thick tenon into the benchtop and it doesn't interfere with the dog holes.

Good luck Paul!
Salem

[Derek Cohen]

I should title this "How not to build a bench"!


There has been some progress, but it has been a lot slower than I planned owing to changes made, and the repairs to these changes, and then being in two minds about the installation of the tail vise.


First of all, the bench top has now reached the stage where it is recognisable as a bench top. I glued the sections together to look like this ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Bench%20build/Progress10.jpg


Next comes the dog hole strip. This was a little more complicated that it needed to be owing to the absence of the requisite board to build it. I searched Perth high and low for more timber, but there is no European Oak to be had in small qualities. So I decided to use the off-cuts from the bench build and create a modular system of dog holes. The advantage here would be the freedom to fit them into the system I will finally decide on. System? More on this later.


Building dog holes: The dog holes are 1" wide and 1 1/2" deep across the top. They are angled towards the vise at 2 degrees. The dog in the BC tailvise is the same size, and also angled forward by 2 degrees.


The dogs need to be centred in the dog strip. First the dog strip board is resawn ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Bench%20build/Dogholes1.jpg


Then a jig was built for the router ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Bench%20build/Dogholes2.jpg


... and the dog holes machined out ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Bench%20build/Dogholes3.jpg


The "bumps" are to prevent the dogs dropping out of the dog holes.


Finally, the two boards were glued together ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Bench%20build/Dogholes4.jpg


The result was a bunch of dog hole strips with each dog hole 3" apart ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Bench%20build/Moreprogress1.jpg


... which I cut to fit the length here, but which I can re-configure as I wish later on (also, note the difference in size of this 75" bench top length versus the <60" length of my old bench) ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Bench%20build/Moreprogress2.jpg


The width of the bench here is 20". The final width is expected to be between 21" and 22".


What is the issue?


Essentially, there are two choices. Either the dog holes are placed as close to the edge of the bench (say 2 1/2", as above), which makes it easier to use when rebating, planing moldings, and other edge treatments ... or, the dog holes are arranged so that the vise can hold work over the rear leg, which is useful for work that requires hammer blows, such as morticing.


The problem is that you cannot have both systems. You have to choose. In the situation where the dog holes are close to the edge of the bench, they will be interrupted by the legs (which are 5" wide and 3 5/8" deep). Consequently, there will be dead spots along the edge of the bench. In the case of the dogs being situated at a distance to the inside of the legs, they will have to be about 3 1/2" - 4" out from the bench edge.


My question to the forum is which is more important for you?


In the case that I go with the second option, I shall need to extend the width of the bench by 1 1/2". And no more European Oak. I decided I would use Tasmanian Oak as a substitute. It is interesting that Tassie Oak is not an oak but a Eucalypt, yet its colour and grain of the edge grain is very similar to the European Oak ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Bench%20build/Moreprogress5.jpg


The Tassie Oak is a little lighter in colour, but after a year I doubt that anyone would pick it out.


Now the other area I had a change of mind was the bench height. In an earlier post I wrote that a height of 30" appeared to work when planing. This was a result of using Chris Schwarz' "pinky test". Over the next couple of days the thought began to firm that planing is just one activity - I prefer a higher bench for detail work, such as the moldings I made with H&R planes - and that I have become used to a 34" bench height. I decided to compromise at 32".


Unfortunately ... I had already cut the legs for a 30" high bench. To make matters more stressful, the bench top thickness is going to end up closer to 3 1/2" than 4". The slight difference in thickness does not bother me, but this affects the bench height.


So now I began to obsess about how I could fix the legs.


Fortunately, when I cut them to length I left the tenons long - 2" in total. The final tenon length will be 1".


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Bench%20build/Progress4.jpg


Here is one idea, which I shelved: molding made with the above-mentioned H&Rs ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Bench%20build/Progress8.jpg


This was too busy for my taste, even if I stained the pieces dark.


I ended up with this ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Bench%20build/Moreprogress3.jpg


Back to the bench top. Here is the BC end vise (with dog hole strip) ready for installation. Just a final decision to make about the choice preferred ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Bench%20build/Moreprogress4.jpg


What are your thoughts in that area?


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Joe Leigh]

"My question to the forum is which is more important for you?"

Derek, the gap in the doghole strip created by the leg width should not be an issue. The tail vise provides plenty of travel to overcome any dead space created by the front legs

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

My opinion would be to agree with joe - enough travel in your vise and you can get around a gap in the doghole strip. Or make up the difference by making a press fit large "head" for one of your dogs to help take up that space a little quicker if spinning the vise really bothers you that much.

Just be sure to measure your dog hole spacing and layout in comparison to the travel of the vise carefully - I screwed up, and there's a certain length of board that can't quite make it to either of two dogholes without a little help, so that's frustrating at times.

[Jim Koepke]

Since I do not hold things in a vise when chopping mortises I would go for the other option.

I tend to clamp things to the bench top or use holdfasts when chopping dovetails or mortises.

jtk

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

On the previous mention of keeping a sliding deadman from interfering with bench dogs; I stumbled across these a while back, finally got around to digging up the links again:

http://oudluthier.blogspot.com/2009/09/roubo-bench-one-year-later.html
(scroll down a bit, or search for "deadman" in the text)
http://correawoodworks.wordpress.com/2011/07/07/sliding-deadman/

An interesting take on it - I'm wondering if it's a good approach for my bench - my dog holes are fairly close to the edge, and debating if I can make the deadman thick enough, particularly the "tongue" on the top, to be sturdy, while avoiding interfering with the bottoms of the dogs. Part of me was also debating putting a slot in both the deadman and top, and using a thin steel plate as the tongue for the deadman.

[Skip Rederscheid]

My legs are 5" by 9" with the 9" facing out towards the leg vice.
I had same concerns. Solved by routing for dog in the strip and then boring down into the leg. Placed a 1" diameter spring in hole in the leg. Made dogs longer and rounded opposite end. Drilled horizonal hole though side of leg. Inserted a pin the catch the dog and hold in the down position. Need to vacum on occasion to remove dust.
Skip

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

That is a great idea Skip.

[Salem Ganzhorn]

Derek there is a third choice: mortise a hole in the leg to acomodate the dog. It is the best of both worlds: short minimum clamping distance and the dogs are still close to the front of the bench.

I would not want to give up this first dog hole. Without the first hole the minimum length you can clamp would be much too long.

Mortising into end grain is not fun! But it is worth it. You also need to drill an access hole so you can pop up the dog that is embedded in the leg. Look closely at the pictures on benchcrafted.com and you will see it as a larger hole right above the holdfast hole in the leg.

Also consider using a thinner front apron. My dogs are only 1.5" from the front edge of the bench and it is still plenty strong.

221034

Salem

[Paul Saffold]

Salem & Joshua,
Thanks for your answers and links re. the sliding deadman and dog holes. That was very helpful.

Paul

[Jim Neeley]

Hey Derek,

I've been thinking about your conondrum on the end vise dog hole near front vs leg issue and so went to check out how Lie-Nielson did it in their Roubo. Different end vise type, but same issue. With strategic placement of the leg near the vise it looks like the only downside to their solution would be a minimum board length of about 6" or so and possibly a non-uniform dog space on the front vise end. Then again, for the rare 6' board, the wagon could be unscrewed further. It also still lets you pound mortises and be over the leg.

Pictures speak louter than words; click on the picture on this link to see a larger size.

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=wb-r#

[Zahid Naqvi]

since I stuck this thread in the FAQs, I thought it might be better to just insert updates in one place instead of linking multiple threads in the FAQs for the same bench build.

Update-1: Bench questions (build starts) (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?180652-Bench-build-update)
Update 2: Top is complete (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?181116-Bench-update-the-top-is-complete)
Update 3: Revisiting the end bolts (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?181499-Re-visiting-the-end-cap-bolts)
Update 4: Weekend progress report, Feb 12 (2012). (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?181558-Weekend-report-progress-with-the-bench)
Update 5: What's on my bench (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?182079-What-s-on-my-bench-progress-report)
Update 6: I screwed up (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?182174-I-screwed-up)
Update 7: The phoenix has arisen (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?182553-The-phoenix-has-arisen-bench-progress)
Update 8: Oh so close (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?183055-Oh-so-close-bench-update)
Update 9: Gone to the Dogs (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?183442-Gone-to-the-dogs)
Update 10: I declare this bench finished. (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?184161-I-declare-this-bench-finished)

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks Zahid!

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

I replaced the coach bolts. I was not happy with the idea of relying on end grain to support the threads.


I really do know know why - call it a senior moment - but I drilled out the first underbench bolt hole with a router. Noisy, the smell of wood burning, and s-l-o-w! Ugh!


The light came on, and I switched to a 12" brace with 3/4" bit.


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Bench%20build/Bolt1.jpg


It was amazing how much faster - and effortless - this was. The European Oak is so much softer than Jarrah. Once the hole is to depth, chisel a flat side for the nut.


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Bench%20build/Bolt2.jpg


The bolt hole is slightly oversized (for expansion) and is slightly deeper than the underbench hole for ease of tightening.


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Bench%20build/bolt3.jpg


Here are the first two holes ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Bench%20build/bolt4.jpg


Handpower rules!


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Bench%20build/bolt5.jpg


Regards from Perth


Derek