Recommendation on Hammer A3 31 vs. Laguna Platinum 12" Jointer/Planer Combo

[Jeff Finn]

I have a small furniture company and cabinet business. I'm shopping for a nice jointer and planer and i'm settling in on purchasing a Euro style combo machine to save space and give me a wider jointer for facing wide boards. One strong recommendation I've gotten from everyone is get a spiral head. After all my research it's down to a Hammer A3 31 vs. the Laguna 12". Fine Woodworking rated all the machines well.

What have been people's experience with the Hammer machines? Are they worth the money- I had initially thrown them out given they didn't offer a spiral head, but in talking to the factory you can get their 12" with Byrd shelix head for +$800. Bed length is shorter but it does have some nice options to grow the machines capability - although they are all very expensive and quickly drive up the price of the machine. Does anyone have experience with the Laguna jointer/planers? They seem to be selling well but I haven't found many people who own any of the newer re-designed models? Everyone likes to knock that they're made in Taiwan - I personally don't care about that if the quality is there from the design and factory process controls. Right now, the Hammer A3 31 is ~$3800 vs. $2800 for the Laguna - both with spiral head. Extension tables and digital gage push A3-31 up to about $4100. Which would you purchase? Is the spiral head worth the upgrade on the Hammer?

[Van Huskey]

I would get the Byrd head on the Hammer, without a single question. If you do a poll I bet it would finish better than 10 to 1 in favor of the Hammer, especially after the redesign. Laguna products that are made in Europe are mostly great, their entire line of BS regardless of origin are excellent as well. The Taiwan/China line is much more spotty in reputation. If you want a Asian 12" J/P, in other words you want to save money, the Jet and Grizzly both are available with spiral heads and less expensive than the Laguna and both have good reputations.

[Jamie Buxton]

I've had a Hammer A3-31 for ten years, and I've used it a lot. It is a good machine. One of the things I like about it is that it is built by the company that sells it, and the company is likely to be here in another ten years when I need a replacement part. (Okay, I'll admit I'm sensitive about this issue because I can't get a replacement part for a Delta drill press that they are still selling.) If mine disappeared in the middle of the night, I'd order another one the next day.

I'm not impressed with Hammer's extension tables. The connection from the extensions to the main tables flexes, so the combined table isn't flat, and in a jointer that isn't good. However, some sort of mobility solution is a good thing.

I'm also skeptical about the spiral head. If it were free, maybe. But when it costs $800 ... I don't think so.

[Brian Weick]

Is your space limited?



B,

[David Kumm]

If you are convinced you want the JP combo I would expand the search to include MM and particularly a used Felder 7 or 700 series. The better the machine the less a spiral cutterhead is needed. I would be more concerned about how often you will have to lift the tables up and down as that is generally the weak point of those machines. For a jointer to be dependable the tables must return and some machines lose their adjustments if you lock the tables by using a different amount of force on the levers. Get the stoutest machine you can afford regardless of knife type. I'm not trying to change your decision but to remind us that byrd heads are great at negating some of the problems of average machines but should not be a reason to buy a lesser machine. Not that a Hammer is lesser but it is no Felder or higher level MM. I would take a ten year old Felder 7 series any day over either the Hammer or Laguna for small commercial work. Dave

[Jeff Monson]

Jeff, I have the A3-31 also, mine has been a joy to use and own. I have seen both in person and would pick the Hammer over the Laguna any day of the week. I think one of the best selling points with Hammer is their customer service, top notch. The new A3-31 with dual lifting tables is a nice upgrade. I had a byrd head on my old planer, I liked it alot but I have not missed it much since aquiring my Hammer. The cut quality and power of the machine are great. The main thing I miss is the noise reduction. The digital handwheel works REALLY well on this machine also.

[Ruhi Arslan]

You better check your PM Jeff F. :)

[Cary Falk]

I don't have any experience with either tool. I did contact Laguna a few years ago to discuss a tool purchase. They had no information to send me. When they did get some months later, they sent me some for the wrong tool. They didn't seem like they were trying to sell me something. With that and wide spread reports of bad customer service, I think I would pick anything but Laguna.

[Jeff Duncan]

If you are convinced you want the JP combo I would expand the search to include MM and particularly a used Felder 7 or 700 series. The better the machine the less a spiral cutterhead is needed. I would be more concerned about how often you will have to lift the tables up and down as that is generally the weak point of those machines. For a jointer to be dependable the tables must return and some machines lose their adjustments if you lock the tables by using a different amount of force on the levers. Get the stoutest machine you can afford regardless of knife type. I'm not trying to change your decision but to remind us that byrd heads are great at negating some of the problems of average machines but should not be a reason to buy a lesser machine. Not that a Hammer is lesser but it is no Felder or higher level MM. I would take a ten year old Felder 7 series any day over either the Hammer or Laguna for small commercial work. Dave


Hmmm, yup what David said!

Generally speaking as a professional you want to get things done quicker. If possible it's better to avoid changing setups between jointing and planing. Also agree about the spiral insert heads. I had one in the past and now have better quality straight knife machines and wouldn't trade them for anything. Not sure how much the machine your looking at goes for, but you could likely buy better quality used separates and be off and running.

good luck with whatever you buy,
JeffD

[Jamie Buxton]

The Laguna can have a head like the Byrd Shelix --- carbide rotatable inserts. Replaceable elements like that are a potential issue for the long-term life of the machine. The machine is useless if you need to replace them, but can't. Is Laguna the only source for inserts to fit that jointer? Or do inserts from other sources fit it?

[Van Huskey]

The Laguna can have a head like the Byrd Shelix --- carbide rotatable inserts. Replaceable elements like that are a potential issue for the long-term life of the machine. The machine is useless if you need to replace them, but can't. Is Laguna the only source for inserts to fit that jointer? Or do inserts from other sources fit it?

That is a good point. The carbide cutter bits are used in most all these heads are available from other industrial supply sources but generally aren't priced as well as from the source of the head. This is something to consider however.

[Mike Wilkins]

I would lean toward the Hammer with spiral. I have a machine similar to the Platinum Laguna machine and there is no comparison. Besides, the Hammer has the backing of Felder behind it. Can't go wrong there. One advantage of the Hammer is that the jointer tables flip up together and to the rear. Mine has the infeed and outfeed tables that flip out toward the front, which is sometimes not very convenient. Get the Hammer and smile each time you use it.

[Peter Aeschliman]

I have the 10" version of the Laguna J/P machine. From what I understand it's exactly the same as the 12", just scaled down with a 2HP motor.

In a nutshell, I like the machine but I don't love it. My first version of it had alignment problems and the motor fried itself under very normal use. Laguna was cool about it and sent me a brand new machine and took the old one away, with liftgate service, at no cost.

But the motor on the replacement machine still gets really really REALLY hot if I run it for more than a half hour or so. As I said, the 10" machine has a 2HP leeson motor, whereas the 12" has a 3HP motor. So I can't speculate about whether the 12" suffers the same issue.

The fence and cutterhead guard are a bit chintzy, but they do the job.

Chip collection during jointing mode is pretty poor. If I mill a lot of 10" wide stock, I'll end up with a big pile of chips on the planer bed beneath... not a major problem, but kind of annoying. It would probably be more annoying in a professional shop such as yours.

If I could do it all over again, I probably would've saved up a little longer and bought a used 12" jointer (and kept my 13" planer, which worked fine).

[Chris Tsutsui]

If I owned a business I would get separate machines unless I had limited space.

For budget friendly combos I am very pleased with my Hammer A3-31 though I havn't used a Laguna or Grizzly yet and those would be my considerations.

I would first consult your local felder sales rep and ask if they have any used equipment that owners are selling. A used Felder that's 7 years old will still be light years ahead of the Hammer that is brand new. If your business has 3PH power then you should have an even wider range of nice machines to shop for.

As for the non-straight blade cutter... I use straight blades and it does a great job. I can't really see much room for improvement other than making the cutting quieter and having less tearout on highly figured grain.

[jonathan eagle]

Jeff,
I have a hammer bandsaw and the grizzly g0634xp 12" jointer planer. (It has a spiral cutter.)
I don't see much difference in quality between the two. I think both are excellent. It would be best for you if you could see the tools to judge for yourself. It's a little like reading reviews on amazon.com, otherwise. One doesn't know if the reviewer has seen and run the alternative products.
Jonathan

[john lawson]

I have a Rojek 12" jointer/planer as a part of a combination machine. It is great!! But if I were you I would look for a used European made jointer/planer combo like a Minimax, Rojek, Robland or Felder. Hammer would be great.

I would try to get one with carbide inserts vs. a knife cutterhead or tersa. Wish I had one.

I did have a 12 jointer in my shop for over a year with carbide inserts (was on loan) and it was terrific. When we moved the machine to it's eventual home we rotated the inserts for the 1st time, and it took about 20 minutes. Think of that, roughly 4 years before you have to change the inserts out, never have to align them, they align themselves. Would never buy another planer or jointer without carbide inserts in the head.

[Peter Aeschliman]

Oh by the way, I forgot to mention that my 10" laguna has the sheartec head (similar design to the byrd heads). The cut quality is great. I only get tear out when I take too deep of a cut, and even then it's very minor.

Personally, I went with the spiral cutterhead because I'm way too impatient to set knives, and it's much quieter than straight knives. Cut quality on straight-grained, non-figured wood is not any better with the spiral cutterhead than it was with straight knives... so to me, if you don't use a lot of figured woods, and you get the tersa head on the Hammer machine (quick-set knives), the only advantage to the spiral cutterhead is noise. But you're going to be wearing ear protection either way, so noise isn't that big of a deal.

[Van Huskey]

One other thing that a couple of people are missing about the carbide bit heads is money savings, the more you use it the more you save.

[Jim Becker]

No question that of the two you mention, it would be the Hammer. But I also agree with the advise to also consider MiniMax. I've had my MiniMax J/P combo since about 2004 and it's really been a pleasure to own and use. Good value for the money. I'm quite pleased with the Tersa head/knives and haven't ever wondered if I should have something like the Byrd cutter head installed.

[Jeff Duncan]

One other thing that a couple of people are missing about the carbide bit heads is money savings, the more you use it the more you save.

Whoa, not so fast. I think that's a pretty big assumption. My planer has straight knives with an on board grinder. I've had the same set of knives for several years now and don't see needing to replace them anytime soon.

For someone using their equipment to make money means they'll likely be running a good deal more stock through than the average homeowner. So the 4 years before rotating as mentioned earlier is not likely to happen. More likely 4 years before replacing. Not sure how many inserts on a 10" -12" head but I'd guess it would be several hundred $ to replace?

I actually believe that carbide vs straight knives (without a grinder) would be a wash as far as cost.

JeffD

[Scot Ferraro]

I have the Hammer and have had it for about 5 years now and it works great. The motor and a lot of parts are the same as the upper line of Felder so the quality is there. What you sacrifice is a four post mechanism to raise/lower the palner bed vs. a single column on the Hammer -- the four post would add more stability, but the single column has been fine. I have run some big timbers through my machine -- 8 ft 8/4 maple slabs when I was building my workbench and it worked very well. I think that this is one of Felder's best values and you really cannot go wrong. The single table is a huge upgrade. I have no issues with the knives and they are a snap to replace...my only complaint is that I wished they stayed sharp a little longer. I do not have the bed extensions and have not really missed them, but they would be nice on the planer bed since the table is what moves -- again, only for really long stock. A couple of roller stands is all you need for the jointer if you want a little extra support. The fence on the newer model is designed better too - more rigid than the end mount style on my machine that does flex a little sideways, but it does not impact squareness in any way.

Scot

[Van Huskey]

Whoa, not so fast. I think that's a pretty big assumption. My planer has straight knives with an on board grinder. I've had the same set of knives for several years now and don't see needing to replace them anytime soon.

For someone using their equipment to make money means they'll likely be running a good deal more stock through than the average homeowner. So the 4 years before rotating as mentioned earlier is not likely to happen. More likely 4 years before replacing. Not sure how many inserts on a 10" -12" head but I'd guess it would be several hundred $ to replace?

I actually believe that carbide vs straight knives (without a grinder) would be a wash as far as cost.

JeffD

You tend to be at odds with everyone who has actually crunched the numbers. The only way it gets close to being a wash is if you are using old iron with thick knives and the ability to sharpen in house, but those are NOT the machines being discussed in the thread. Even at that if you consider the paid time and down time I would be surprised if even old iron and a grinder actually are cheaper.

BTW carbide bits are conservatively expected to stay sharp about 10 times as long as a set of HSS knives ( would bet the real number is closer to 20 times). So a single carbide cutter is good for 40 HSS edges. Thinner non-old iron blades are usually good for 6-7 sharpenings so you are looking at 6-7 sets of knives. The other little secret about the cutters is one can actually sharpened at home... but very few have figured that out yet because most have never used all 4 sides up yet.

[David Kumm]

The accountant in me believes that the cost differences among the various cutterheads are probably not a big issue. Machine and labor cost are larger. To be clear, the Felder quick change knife system is the Esta disposablade system. Gives a good finish and changes are fairly quick but crud can get in the slots so some time and care is needed. Spiral heads cost a bunch up front but as long as you keep the jointer and planer tables co planar with them the cut is pretty tearout free. There is some time- not very often- to change inserts and care must be taken to keep the seat clean and torque the insert correctly. Not much time though. Tersa heads are the fastest to change and there are choices as to the type of steel and also carbide blades are available. Great cut as well. Old iron with onboard grinders in the hands of those who know how to use them are fast and can be honed for various types of woods so they can be pretty tearout free as well. Probably the best way to get the knives exactly on the same plane. My point is that whatever the choice, a shop owner or hobby guy can achieve great results at reasonable cost. Some expertise may need to be acquired . Commercial guys seemed to favor the Tersa and now the Byrd is making inroads into that market. I still think the bigger issue here is how stout the JP is, particularly if hired help are running the machine. If a one man shop it is less of an issue as the guy who paid for the machine tends to handle it a little more carefully. Dave

[Alan Lightstone]

So I can't speculate about whether the 12" suffers the same issue.

The fence and cutterhead guard are a bit chintzy, but they do the job.

Chip collection during jointing mode is pretty poor. If I mill a lot of 10" wide stock, I'll end up with a big pile of chips on the planer bed beneath... not a major problem, but kind of annoying. It would probably be more annoying in a professional shop such as yours.



I have the 12" model, with the 3HP motor, and have not had heat issues at all.

I couldn't agree more with Peter about the chip collection issues while jointing. I even built a custom 6" intake for the machine to increase its chip collection, and it's hooked up to a 5HP Oneida cyclone. Even with those steps, it just drops huge amounts of chips on the planer bed when jointing. Its dust collection is quite poor, and needs a redesign. I keep meaning to build a wood box to sit on the planar be when I'm jointing, with a hookup to my Festool vac. I called up Laguna tech support. They said this is normal performance for this machine.

Other than some issues with snipe which I deal with (and probably all jointers have, and may be user error on my part), the finish it provides, I find, to be quite good.

The fence is chintzy. It needs a 90deg lock on it. Every time you move it, you need to take out your square.

The euro guard is annoying, compared to American ones.

That all being said, if I had it to do over again, I'd buy the Hammer.

[Curt Harms]

Hmmm, yup what David said!

Generally speaking as a professional you want to get things done quicker. If possible it's better to avoid changing setups between jointing and planing. Also agree about the spiral insert heads. I had one in the past and now have better quality straight knife machines and wouldn't trade them for anything. Not sure how much the machine your looking at goes for, but you could likely buy better quality used separates and be off and running.

good luck with whatever you buy,
JeffD

I'm a proponent of combo machines but if you're doing this for a living and have the space, I think I'd be looking at separates. For a combo machine to make sense in a commercial setting you'd have to be better than I'd be about doing batch processing.

[Jeff Finn]

Thanks Guys! Great information and really appreciate all the detail. It's clear you guys support the Europeans still build superior machines and I've got some more homework to do before I lock down my next purchase. Really - it's a pretty amazing testament to how good the Hammer A3-31 machine must be as i haven't read or heard a single complaint on those machines in everything on this forum or other sites. I also greatly appreciate Alan and Peter's commentary as they both have the Laguna machine and both advise on going the route of the Hammer or separate machines. I've been very happy with a few of the Laguna machines and normally see them as in between a Grizzly asian import and a European built machine.

I agree with all you guys on European machines and I know my dream shop would be filled with Martins. I just haven't been able to stomach that level of investment yet. If I could now - I'd have that new Martin TP300 J/P that looks pretty awesome but certainly doesn't fit into the 'small category. I've got a small shop that started as a hobby and is turning into a business, but still haven't really made the plunge to go all in. Without 3 phase power, its tough to get some of those real 'industrial' machines. My space is tight today, but hopefully won't be for too long so I'm also thinking about what machine has the highest resale. I'm most likely going to follow your advice and go with the Hammer (or MiniMax) machine, probably adding the spiral head depending on how much of a cost it is to start with the knives and upgrade later. I can accept some of the argument that a really high quality precision machine with straight knives can cut well, but the evidence is pretty strong that carbide on a helical angle of cut is superior for many reasons. If anyone knows of someone selling a used machine, please send them my way.

[Van Huskey]

The last time I taked to Felder the Byrd for the A3 31 when they put it in is about $800, the head alone costs more than that. If you know you want it and have the cash get it upfront. The Hammer will have better resell than the Laguna, Jet or Grizzly. I think having the byrd will help it move faster to hobby folks. If you do decide to see it I imagine it would be a quick sell in the classifieds here.

[Jeff Duncan]

You tend to be at odds with everyone who has actually crunched the numbers. The only way it gets close to being a wash is if you are using old iron with thick knives and the ability to sharpen in house, but those are NOT the machines being discussed in the thread. Even at that if you consider the paid time and down time I would be surprised if even old iron and a grinder actually are cheaper.

BTW carbide bits are conservatively expected to stay sharp about 10 times as long as a set of HSS knives ( would bet the real number is closer to 20 times). So a single carbide cutter is good for 40 HSS edges. Thinner non-old iron blades are usually good for 6-7 sharpenings so you are looking at 6-7 sets of knives. The other little secret about the cutters is one can actually sharpened at home... but very few have figured that out yet because most have never used all 4 sides up yet.


That's OK, I like to push back at what "everyone" says once in a while:D

So numbers are fun b/c you can make them say anything you want. There are so many variables that the actual numbers will vary from shop to shop. I can tell you without a doubt that my planer with straight knives and grinder over time will be so much cheaper than the cost of an insert head, it's not even close. FWIW I've got it down to a little over half an hour to do a full grind and wax the tables on my planer. My knives, (not old iron), came with the machine and I've ground them at least 1/2 dozen times so far with at least 1/2 dozen light passes in between full grindings, and I have no intention of replacing in the next decade or so. In a hobby shop I'd be surprised if the cost of a carbide head was ever recouped, regardless of what some may think. It's when you start logging serious time on the machines that the carbide starts to recoup it's costs IMHO.

For most guys buying this machine and using it in a hobby setting they'll very likely never use, (maybe 'need' is a better word here), all 4 edges of the carbide. Meaning they would also never sharpen their knives 40 times....(assuming the 10x lifespan over HSS). So then the question is how many sharpenings would you have to pay for and how often to recoup the cost. I use my machines daily on mostly hardwoods and I sharpen my jointer knives about once a year. So what,...every 2-3 years at most for a hobby shop. Even if you did have to replace the knives along the way I'd guess your looking at easily 32 years of use, (and likely more), to recoup that head cost....a wash...in my mind anyway;)

Now for someone using it more often it pays for itself quicker. Of course you also wear out the carbide quicker! Having run an insert head myself for a year I quite honestly find the claims out there of 10x the life of carbide to be optimistic in this application. I've heard as low as 3x and as high as 30x, of course it depends on what your running and how you define useful life? Using the 10x life span you'll end up coming out ahead after about 16 sharpenings and 1 additional set of knives. Pretty good on paper! In my experience if I were to estimate the life of carbide inserts based on the wear I had in 10 months or so, I'd ballpark it closer to 5x the life of HSS for my shop. A significant part of the problem in gauging life for me was like others who made the switch, I found that I could not remove as much stock with the carbide inserts as I can with the straight knives. So I was running parts 2-3x for every pass I now make with the straight knives. Meaning part of the increased lifespan got eaten up by the repeated runs per piece....(not even including the extra time it takes to run parts additional passes!).

Anyway you start to see why it's not quite that easy to say you come out ahead cost-wise with an insert head in a small shop setting. In many cases I really do think it's a wash, but it's going to be different depending on individual use. I think the heavier the use the sooner you recoup your investment, though I'd argue if your getting into really heavy use your not going to be looking at machines in this class;)


BTW, my understanding is the inserts are not really something you can re-sharpen at home? Even if you had the right type of diamond wheel, and a way to keep them perfectly aligned, (assuming we're talking about the straight knives as the curved would be significantly more difficult), your removing material which is going to change the way the knife sits in the head and it's clearances. So do you know something the rest of us missed:confused:

JeffD

[Van Huskey]

"BTW, my understanding is the inserts are not really something you can re-sharpen at home? Even if you had the right type of diamond wheel, and a way to keep them perfectly aligned, (assuming we're talking about the straight knives as the curved would be significantly more difficult), your removing material which is going to change the way the knife sits in the head and it's clearances. So do you know something the rest of us missed:confused:"


I duuno, maybe. Carbide bits like this can be sharpened at home. The key is you NEVER touch the face just the back. A very flat diamond hone and you are back in business, just ask the wood turners that use carbide insert bits, the money savvy ones use these exact same bits. The key when doing them for a jointer or planer is making sure you use the same number of strokes (and thus remove the same amount of material) from each cutter. You have to stay in the ball park and it helps to use a fine hone so when you use the same number of strokes keeps them VERY close in thickness.

In the end we can agree to disagree but the conventional wisdom carbide bit cutter heads do save money in the long run not to mention the other benefits. You also can not discount the fact that setting knives is one of those things MANY woodworkers like about as much as sanding.

Devils advocate time, you gave the carbide inserts 5X wear over HSS in your shop and you said just over 30 mins to hone/replace your knives. That would work out to about 7-8 extra hours over the course of a set of cutters. At a meager $25 and hour that is about $200 in time, and don't forget most woodworkers will spend more than an hour doing the same process.

If the OP is considering the Hammer keep in mind that it is a disposable blade system BUT it is QUICK to change. Even with your 5X example which is on the low end, that is 10 sets of knives. The cutter bits would run about $180 so the knives would have to be in the $18 a set range, they are not though. There are situations where knives may end up being a wash cost wise especially if you are a hobbyist and don't count your time but from my experience and 95% of what I have read the carrbide bit heads will leave more money in your pocket in the long run and have other benefits as well.

[Peter Aeschliman]

Van, I believe all of the cutterheads that have the cutters skewed at an angle have radiused cutting edges. My laguna sheartec head is this way, and if my understanding is correct, it's the same deal with the byrd head.

I can hardly sharpen a chisel by hand correctly. I can't imagine trying to do all of my cutter inserts by hand!! ;-)

[Van Huskey]

Van, I believe all of the cutterheads that have the cutters skewed at an angle have radiused cutting edges. My laguna sheartec head is this way, and if my understanding is correct, it's the same deal with the byrd head.

I can hardly sharpen a chisel by hand correctly. I can't imagine trying to do all of my cutter inserts by hand!! ;-)

All the ones I have seen, well touched outside a head, have flat backs. But, I certainly haven't actually checked them all. The key is you do not touch the FACE you only work the back.

They are easier to sharpen than a plane iron or chisel in that there is no angle to hold, you just press down and move it back and forth across the stone. If anyone has a chipped cutter and a resonably fine diamond stone you could play with the shipped one just for fun.

[Jeff Duncan]

Well if your going to include the time it takes for me to grind knives, you would also have to include the time required to turn all this tiny little inserts, clean the seats, torque them down....well you get the picture;)

As for the other benefits of insert heads, they've been well spelled out in the many posts here and on other forums we've all read over the years. I have nothing against them and in fact will probably get one for my smaller 8" jointer at some point. I just feel sometimes guys go a little over the top in how great they are. So I try to add my experience just to keep things a bit more grounded.

I don't have any direct experience with the disposable blade systems. In my mind they seem like they would be MUCH more expensive than just about any other setup as you really can't sharpen much if at all, and so your always buying new sets when it's time to change. They do seem to be favored by pro shops though, mostly, (I believe), for the ability to quickly and easily swap out knives. They are available as both HSS and carbide, with the cost of carbide being pretty high IMHO.

So if I were to recommend a head for someone buying one of these machines for the kind of use described here, I'd recommend the insert head too! I just wouldn't go so far as to say they'll save you a lot of money in the long run....but as you said we can agree to disagree;)

JeffD

[Andrew Joiner]

I just feel sometimes guys go a little over the top in how great they are. So I try to add my experience just to keep things a bit more grounded.

I don't have any direct experience with the disposable blade systems. In my mind they seem like they would be MUCH more expensive than just about any other setup as you really can't sharpen much if at all, and so your always buying new sets when it's time to change. They do seem to be favored by pro shops though, mostly, (I believe), for the ability to quickly and easily swap out knives. They are available as both HSS and carbide, with the cost of carbide being pretty high IMHO.



JeffD

Thanks for keeping things grounded Jeff.

[Rod Sheridan]

The decision to chamge cutter types has to be evaluated for each application.

I don't plane exotics, and with a straight knife Euro machine (even a cheap one like I own) the straight knives take a 2 or 3mm deep cut without hesitation.

It cost me about $25 to have my three planer knives sharpened when I had the standard knives, which was a few years ago.

It costs $60 to purchase a set of three disposable knives for my new planer, which gives me two changes.

That's a wash on pricing, with the new knives going in in 5 minutes with no calibration required.

For me in a home shop I use one edge per year approximately, so it's somewhere around 20 to 30 years for me to break even on a carbide head.

As I have no performance issues with the cobalt knives, "upgrading" doesn't make any sense in my application.

Regards, Rod.

[Van Huskey]

but as you said we can agree to disagree;)

JeffD

But it was fun, no?

We could all just get an old Oliver with an ITCH head and start forcing its merits down everyones throat! :p

[Van Huskey]

It cost me about $25 to have my three planer knives sharpened when I had the standard knives.

It costs $to purchase a set of three disposable knives for my new planer, which gives me two changes.

Rod, $=?. One "$" for a meal can be $5 but in relation to a hotel it could be $60. I am actually curious what they charge for a set of cobalt knives, I assume that is what you use as the plain versions that come with the Hammer's don't get much good press.

[Rod Sheridan]

Rod, $=?. One "$" for a meal can be $5 but in relation to a hotel it could be $60. I am actually curious what they charge for a set of cobalt knives, I assume that is what you use as the plain versions that come with the Hammer's don't get much good press.

Hi, I made a typo which I went back and corrected, however you beat me to it.

It's now been corrected..................Rod.

[Jeff Duncan]

But it was fun, no?

We could all just get an old Oliver with an ITCH head and start forcing its merits down everyones throat! :p

It's always fun here:D

Personally I'm happy with my planer and wouldn't trade it for anything short of a Martin. Best part is I spent less than the carbide head for it would cost. As for the Oliver you can have it. I've read about those ITCH heads from someone who sharpened it and it's not for me;)

So now what do we do.....maybe start another Sawstop thread:eek:

JeffD

[Will Rowland]

Does anyone know what the "real-world" noise level difference is between the straight knives and the Byrd head for the Hammer A3-31?

I plan on purchasing an A3-31 later this year, but live in a tightly-packed downtown neighborhood, with my shop right up against my rather uptight neighbors' pool area. They've complained loudly before about my lowly Makita 2012 lunchbox planer, so am curious how the Hammer would compare with both the straight knives and the Byrd head. (I do plan to insulate and sheetrock the shop this sping, which should help a bit).

[Jeff Duncan]

They're pretty quiet compared to a straight knife planer, and much quieter than a lunchbox. Those small portable units scream and are a higher pitch too. Somewhere along the way I read about someone who measured the decibel difference....a little googling and you may be able to track it down.

good luck,
JeffD

[David Kumm]

It's always fun here:D

Personally I'm happy with my planer and wouldn't trade it for anything short of a Martin. Best part is I spent less than the carbide head for it would cost. As for the Oliver you can have it. I've read about those ITCH heads from someone who sharpened it and it's not for me;)

So now what do we do.....maybe start another Sawstop thread:eek:

JeffD

Yes learning to sharpen the ITCH takes some time. Having a friend who knows how to do is even better. That head on that quality of planer is pretty sweet though. The price of 299s today is what the head alone cost 5 years ago. Tersa probably makes more sense in a production setting but for many it is the best machine out there for the price. A little learning curve goes with the territory. Dave

[Loren Woirhaye]

If you are buying new, get one where the tables lift up as one unit. I had a Robland with the butterfly style hinge and it was tricky to get the tables to align the same when switching function back to jointer mode.

I am not persuaded of the value of combos unless space is really a problem. Eventually, you may find you use the machine as a jointer most of the time and use another planer. There is a lot of cranking involved with switching functions with some of the combo machines as well.

I sold the Robland and eventually ended up with a 10" INCA J/P combo which I use only as a jointer, and a vintage Belsaw planer I am absolutely wild about. The Belsaw is a seriously good machine in terms of surface finish and thickness consistency from part to part and way undervalued on the second-hand market.