dovetails...

[Greg Cuetara]

I am currently in the process of making 2 dressers. The first has 9 drawers and the second has 6 drawers. I want to use half-blind dovetails but am unsure how to proceed right now. I do not have a jig but do have a few routers.

I saw this article a few years back.

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/techniques/1999_dovetail_jig#comments

it talks about using a router to cut the pins and then cut the tails either with a bandsaw or by hand. My bandsaw is currently out of commission so I was thinking that I could use my router to cut the pins as described and then go out and buy a dovetail saw to cut the tails by hand. Am I crazy to think that I could pull this off?

I saw a few jigs for the router, the stots jig, where you actually use their jig to make your own jig or the ez pro at home deposit. Not really looking for a $500 production dovetail jig, although it would be nice.

Thanks for any advice.
Greg

[Derek Gilmer]

I've got the PC 4212 ($150ish) and it does half blind dovetails. The bit that comes with it might be a little large. How thick are the sides of the drawers?

[Greg Cuetara]

Fronts are going to be 3/4" and sides 1/2". I am going to be using solid hickory for the fronts, sides and back as that was the cheapest material i could find and i am using it for the rest of the dresser. For the second dresser i am using 3/4" cherry fronts with 1/2" hard maple sides and backs. I found a pc 4212 for $65 on CL but was too late to the party so now trying to find another solution. don't really have the $$ for that jig new right now.

[Charles Lent]

There's one thing about cutting half blind dovetails with a router.....precision is everything. For good results you need a jig that will give you precise cuts or you will be unhappy with the results. I've owned 3 different dovetail jigs and have been unhappy with the results that I was able to achieve with the first 2. My first was a Wolfcraft and I don't remember the name of the second one. My third is a Leigh D4R and I'm finally happy it and the dovetails that I can cut with it. The D4R has the flexibility and precision that I was hoping to get from the cheaper jigs. I should have bought it in the first place. The Porter Cable jigs weren't available when I bought my D4R jig so I haven't tried them. There may be other good jigs out there too. I stopped looking after I bought the D4R.

Charley

[Greg Cuetara]

Charley, Thanks for the thoughts. The article I linked to above has you cut the half-blind part with the router and then cut the mating piece by hand or with a bandsaw so it is a half router half hand cut method.

Greg

[Derek Gilmer]

Fronts are going to be 3/4" and sides 1/2". I am going to be using solid hickory for the fronts, sides and back as that was the cheapest material i could find and i am using it for the rest of the dresser. For the second dresser i am using 3/4" cherry fronts with 1/2" hard maple sides and backs. I found a pc 4212 for $65 on CL but was too late to the party so now trying to find another solution. don't really have the $$ for that jig new right now.
The article you linked looks like it should work with some practice then.

The biggest problem with mixing router with hand saws is the the rounded hole in the front board. YOu'll either be rounding over all your tails to fit or have a half circle at the base of the pins showing in the drawer.

[Mike Henderson]

Cut them by hand. It's not that hard and doesn't require much equipment. There are plenty of tutorials on the web, one of which is here (http://www.mikes-woodwork.com/Half-BlindDovetails.htm).

Mike

[Lee Schierer]

You are making enough drawers to justify a jig. I would suggest the Rockler Jig which retails for about $120. It is an adequate jig and makes excellent half blind dovetails with a little bit of practice and set up.219446 PM me and I can tell you how to get free shipping on this.

Hand cutting is also a good way to go if you have the time to learn and practice. You will also need to buy some tools for this.

[Larry Fox]

Cut them by hand. It's not that hard and doesn't require much equipment. There are plenty of tutorials on the web, one of which is here (http://www.mikes-woodwork.com/Half-BlindDovetails.htm).

Mike

+1 to what Mike says here.

[Greg Cuetara]

Mike you make it look very easy and now I want to try that just concerned that it will take me 40 hours to do one joint...

one question that i have is what is the best type of hand saw to get. I do not have anything that would work reasonably well right now. I saw a cheaper saw a home deposit...i think it was an irwin with 14tpi.

http://www.homedepot.com/Tools-Hardware/h_d1/N-5yc1vZarnk/R-202214100/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

if i try to do this by hand definately do not want to spend a lot just yet. one big question i have is the bandsaw or handsaw will leave rough edges but does that really matter since you are just going to glue it up anyways?

Thanks,
Greg

[Derek Gilmer]

Mike you make it look very easy and now I want to try that just concerned that it will take me 40 hours to do one joint...

one question that i have is what is the best type of hand saw to get. I do not have anything that would work reasonably well right now. I saw a cheaper saw a home deposit...i think it was an irwin with 14tpi.

http://www.homedepot.com/Tools-Hardware/h_d1/N-5yc1vZarnk/R-202214100/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

if i try to do this by hand definately do not want to spend a lot just yet. one big question i have is the bandsaw or handsaw will leave rough edges but does that really matter since you are just going to glue it up anyways?

Thanks,
Greg

Veritas dovetail saws are about the cheapest "Good" dovetail saws around.

And my first half blind dovetail joints were about 30-40 minutes a corner (3 dovetails each corner) but I'm down to 10 or so now...

[Michael Peet]

Another +1 for doing them by hand. I have the Veritas saw; it works. Greg, practice one joint a day for 3 or 4 weeks and you will have it down.

Mike

[Albert T. Tappman]

I saw a cheaper saw a home deposit...i think it was an irwin with 14tpi.

http://www.homedepot.com/Tools-Hardware/h_d1/N-5yc1vZarnk/R-202214100/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053



That Irwin saw is definitely not adequate for cutting dovetails. If you try to use it for that you'll get very frustrated. About the only ultra-cheap saw that might be adequate is a Zona dovetail saw. I have that Irwin saw and it's only barely usable for rough carpentry. I also have a Zona saw that I've used for making small cuts here and there, but never tried to cut dovetails with it. A good $15 dovetail saw just doesn't exist.

If you want to make dovetails by hand you'll have to spend the $65 to get a Veritas saw, at minimum. Anything less and you'll just give up. Even with a good saw, you might give up. It's not that hard after a lot of practice, but you might not want to spend the time it takes to get good at it.

For half-blind dovetails on drawers, I'd just get a Porter-Cable 4210. You can be making decent dovetails after a few trial runs, in an afternoon.

[Mike Henderson]

Mike you make it look very easy and now I want to try that just concerned that it will take me 40 hours to do one joint...

one question that i have is what is the best type of hand saw to get. I do not have anything that would work reasonably well right now. I saw a cheaper saw a home deposit...i think it was an irwin with 14tpi.

http://www.homedepot.com/Tools-Hardware/h_d1/N-5yc1vZarnk/R-202214100/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

if i try to do this by hand definately do not want to spend a lot just yet. one big question i have is the bandsaw or handsaw will leave rough edges but does that really matter since you are just going to glue it up anyways?

Thanks,
Greg
I did a lot of dovetails with a medium sized Japanese saw. I think they go for about $35 -$40 but I haven't bought one in a while. The LV dovetail saw is a good one, also.

I often cut the tails with a bandsaw because it's fast and you're assured of getting a straight up and down cut (just don't wander on your cut). Unless your bandsaw makes a REALLY rough cut, it won't affect the look of the final joinery. You can always smooth the face with a chisel if you want to.

Machine made dovetails are the way to go when you have a lot to do. With bureau drawers, they're often different heights so you have to go through a set up for each size drawer so hand cut is not that slow compared to the machine made.

Also, half blind dovetails hide a lot of your mistakes because only one face is visible. Try doing them by hand. If you decide to go that way, you'll have bragging rights whenever you show someone the chests.

Mike

[Derek Gilmer]

I'm serious in this. If you want to borrow my 4212 you can pay shipping to and from your place. It just collects dust in my shop.

The Pax Gent's saw might work well, and is a bit cheaper: http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=63298&cat=1,42884,63338

[Mike Henderson]

If you decide to get a jig, my recommendation is to not go with a cheap jig. Get one that you can adjust the spacing of the tails/pins. If you get a fix spacing jig, you'll have to compromise on the placement of the tails/pins, or you'll have to make the drawers fit the jig (high high to make the drawers).

I had one of the Rockler jigs and felt it was a waste of money - a serious waste of money.

Mike

[David Posey]

+1 on cutting by hand and the Veritas dovetail saw. I'd be very surprised if anything from the borg would cut well without some work.

Just wondering, if you were to cut the pins with a router and do the tails by hand, how would you mark them? If your marking from one board to another, you have to do the tails first on half-blinds. I guess you could make a template of the pins, but my bet is that will make for sloppy work unless you're really careful.

[Van Huskey]

If you want to spend money get the Leigh D4R Pro or Porter Cable 24" Omnijig. If you don't want to spend money cut them by hand and get this: http://www.zonatool.net/35-380.html

Zona saws are the best kept "secret" in woodworking. Although I am sure Chris Schwarz doesn't use them for dovetails he seems to love Zona saws for many other purposes. Here is one guys review of it: http://www.timberframe-tools.com/tools/zona-deluxe-razor-saw/ I have several of these saws from another hobby of mine and other than taking a few more strokes they work well.

[Brian Krause]

I just recently cut quite a few dovetails by hand and used my Lie Nielsen saw for most, however, this saw is a fraction of the cost, and I'd hate to say it (because I spent the money on the LN) but it was even easier and more precise to use....

Shark Corp 10-2410 Fine-Cut 19-Point Finish Saw, around $22

Good luck,
Brian

[Charles Lent]

There's a new-in-box Porter Cable 4210 jig available on the ncwoodworker.net website right now for $65. That's 50% off of the store price. I know almost nothing about the Porter Cable dovetail jigs, so I don't know if this jig will do half blind dovetails, but thought it was a great buy that someone might be interested in. I have no connection with the seller. I don't even know him.

Charley

[Frank Booth]

I am currently in the process of making 2 dressers. The first has 9 drawers and the second has 6 drawers. I want to use half-blind dovetails but am unsure how to proceed right now. I do not have a jig but do have a few routers.

I saw this article a few years back.

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/techniques/1999_dovetail_jig#comments

it talks about using a router to cut the pins and then cut the tails either with a bandsaw or by hand. My bandsaw is currently out of commission so I was thinking that I could use my router to cut the pins as described and then go out and buy a dovetail saw to cut the tails by hand. Am I crazy to think that I could pull this off?

I saw a few jigs for the router, the stots jig, where you actually use their jig to make your own jig or the ez pro at home deposit. Not really looking for a $500 production dovetail jig, although it would be nice.

Thanks for any advice.
Greg

I used that method a few years ago and it was amazingly easy and good. I haven't used it since then but only because I haven't done much woodworking with dovetails but this is a system I will always use.

[Dan Schocke]

I'll add my vote to the "cut them by hand" crowd... The Japanese style saws (Shark listed above, or Irwin sells one badged with their name for around $20) work fine and cut fast. The blades are disposable, not meant to be sharpened like the Veritas or LN saws. I'd recommend finding a video (online or otherwise) that shows the layout and cutting techniques, which are both pretty simple if you are methodical about it. Roy Underhill did a great show about cutting half-blind dovetails a few years ago -- one of his tricks was to clear most of the waste on the pin board with a Forstner bit chucked in his brace. I use my drill press rather than a brace, but it makes the work go quicker for me as I don't feel the need to hone my chisel as often when the bulk of the work is done by the drill. If the pins are large enough, you can also use a coping saw to remove most of the waste on the tail board. If not, just use a chisel to hog out the waste. Some people prefer to use chisels for all, which is fine too.

By the third drawer you'll be cutting dovetails like a pro.

--Dan

[Carl Beckett]

Hi Greg,

Dont know if you have started this or not. I have a project underway (two dressers - 18 drawers total) that I am doing through dovetails by hand. It takes a little time, and since Im relatively less experienced than many it takes me more time than it would others here. (part of the reason I chose to do them by hand was because I wanted to practice and develop the skills).

Note that I have built some dressers and other assemblies using the Leigh dovetail system. Once setup, and if the drawers are all matching patterns, a fixture like this would be overall much faster. I find half blinds much easier on these fixtures than through dovetails, and have had luck knocking these out with pretty quick setup.

You can find some basic fixtures on CL relatively cheap - that is one way to go.

But if I was advising, I would recommend you trying the hybrid method noted by Greg and the article in the link. In fact, my next project I will use a hybrid approach (cutting pins on a Woodrat system and tails by hand - not entirely unlike that article). The one area that takes a lot of time (for me) is paring out the waste from the pins - and this needs to be straight and even, etc - a router is great at this (I have even been known to go at this freehand with a router, just to quicken the step of removing the pin waste). Given your bandsaw is out of commission, this path isnt an option for you and making the cuts with a hand saw is no big deal - its the waste paring that is the pain (just my experience).

If you think you might ever want to learn to cut by hand - just start out doing it now and get on the learning curve - its not that hard (just takes a little time)

Looking forward to hearing which path you go down, and how it works for you.

[Greg Cuetara]

ok well this weekend was a fairly good experiment. I tried to do the hybrid method described above with a router to cut one piece then use a saw to cut another piece. well i gather that the router bit that i have is not that good becuase it was very difficult so don't think that method will work. I took a not so good saw that i have and tried to cut one of the pieces and then pared away the waste with a chisel and at first i thought no way am I going to do this for every piece but after a minute it started to go quick and wasn't that bad at all and I think with some experience and getting a method down it might not be that bad.

So In the end I think I am going to go for a full hand cut method. I just need to re-read some of the posts above to try and find a decent dovetail saw that won't break the bank right now.

Thanks for all the advice so far. I have Mike's articles up in my browser right now so need to re-read them a few times but that is my story and i'm sticking to it for right now. I may rethink this method but I figure I have some good people to draw on if I have problems.

Greg

[David Keller NC]

So In the end I think I am going to go for a full hand cut method. I just need to re-read some of the posts above to try and find a decent dovetail saw that won't break the bank right now.

Thanks for all the advice so far. I have Mike's articles up in my browser right now so need to re-read them a few times but that is my story and i'm sticking to it for right now. I may rethink this method but I figure I have some good people to draw on if I have problems.

Greg

Check out the neanderthal forum - there's a lot of good posts on hand-cutting dovetails. And there are reasons to learn to cut dovetails by hand other than avoiding than the noise and expense of a router jig. For one, it makes it really easy to vary spacing, slope, and other aesthetic considerations without being constrained by your tools.

However, there's one aspect of your plans that would give me pause. Mating one very hard piece of wood as the drawer front and another very hard piece of wood as the drawer side is not going to go well, particularly if you're just starting out. One of the "cheats" that cabinetmakers have used since the 18th century up to this day is to rely on the relatively soft wood for the drawer sides (poplar, eastern white pine, basswood and aspen are popular choices) "crushing" under the force of driving the hard wood of the drawer front home when the joint is put together.

Doing dovetails by hand isn't a big deal, but it does take practice, and it's a skill that's necessary if you aspire to be truly proficient at woodwork. And even with a relatively hard wood going together with a relatively soft wood, many folks that are primarily power tool users are surprised at the very high degree of precision that is required to get the joint together gap-free. Mating two pieces of soft/hard maple, hickory or even walnut is certainly possible, but it requires an even higher level of precision to avoid gaps.

[Van Huskey]

So In the end I think I am going to go for a full hand cut method. I just need to re-read some of the posts above to try and find a decent dovetail saw that won't break the bank right now.

Greg

I promise the Zona will surprise you, do some googling. It is about $12 and it is NOT a heirloom tool but it works.

[Bill White]

I have the PC 4210 basic jig. Have not bought the accessories for the other DTs 'cause I just use the half blinds most of the time. Once set up, it has been a good investment.
Bill

[Todd Bin]

Also a point no one else mentioned. Since half blind dovetails require a bit more precision sawing and a lot more chiseling you could cut through dovetails and then apply the nice looking thinner drawer front. This makes it look like half blind dovetails with the advantage that it is a bit easier and faster to do.

[Gary Kman]

If your "..bandsaw is currently out of commission...". Get it re-commissioned. Junk doesn't deserve space in a shop. Second, start making dovetails on scrap NOW. You don't want to make your mistakes on your a major project, do you? Use whatever tools, methods you have available. The experience will tell you more than all the internet wizards in the world. First thing I learned is that I can't "steer" my Japanese saw. It has no set. However you start is the exact direction you will continue line or no line. Your experience may be different.

[Pat Barry]

I also have the Rockler jig and it worked great for what I needed for making drawers. Downside was that it did take a bit of fooling around to get it set up. You need to make a few test joints before the real thing, but that is true for hand work. Downside of mine was the fixed spacing. I made about 20 drawers with it and I dovetailed both the face fronts and the drawer backs the same way as long as I had it set up. You can get a thru dovetail jig plate for it but I never did. It is way faster than hand cut.

[Greg Cuetara]

Gary I know I need a kick in the rear to get my BS fixed but don't have a lot of shop time and havn't had a need for it recently so just havn't bought the part that I need to fix it. That is on my to do list.

Talking about hand cut dovetails I have been looking at the shark saw or the Veritas Dovetail saw. Van I took a look at the Zona saw but they have a $20 min plus shipping and for that I figured I could just get a better saw to start with. I know the Veritas is much better so I will probably just get that and be done with it. I have about 15-20 drawers, fronts and backs to do now, and then I will have the saw for the future because if this does work then this will be the only way I do drawers.

Again thanks for the advice so far.
Greg