Kitchen Cabinets

[Scott Lemmers]

I need some advice on kitchen cabinet pricing.
I was hoping somebody out there can take a guess at how much money I can save by building the cabinets myself.
I was at the local Home "super store" (not wanting to mention names or bash products) and was a little shocked at the poor craftsmanship I noticed on some of their "higher end" cabinets. I am not only building these to save some money but I want to build a better cabinet.
Can I build them for much less?

Thanks for the advice.

[Ray Bersch]

Scott, that is a really open-ended question. "How much money" you can save depends on so many variables that I don't think you can get into the ballpark with an answer or even a percentage quess - such things as size and configuration of the kitchen, wood, style, finish, details of trim, countertop and the level of quality you are considering. (Not to mention the whims and wishes of the other half.)

I suggest you work up a plan and have it priced out with cabinets you like. Then make up a materials list and price out the cost of the wood, drawer slides, hinges, knobs, swivels, etc., etc. Don't forget to include the cost of new tools - or at least cutters, blades, finishes and other expendables (I always justify the new tool cost by what I am saving - sort of a circular calculation!! It works for me when it works for the wife.) Then, put a value on your time and you can get pretty close. Of course, the value of your time varies with the availability of your time - which also varies by the time of year - for me, during fishing season I put a pretty high value on my time - during the winter it is a different story - to each his or her own.

Just remember, standing back and looking at your completed work is priceless and it gets even better when others marvel at your labors.
Ray

[Mike Cutler]

Scott. It really comes down to how much you want to save. The sky can literally be the limit. Talked to lumber dealer recently that sold some "special material" to a cabinet maker. The actual cabinetry component was $90,000. This price didn't include the marble tops and rose quartz knobs and pulls. or the hinges and other assorted hardware. He did tell me that the hinges were $600.00 per pair :eek:
You may not save any money when compared to the Big Box stores, but for the same money, or maybe a little more, the quality can really be significantly improved. If you have the tools and the time, and you and SWMBO agree on a design, build your own. they're not that hard.
There are also some really good books by Taunton Press on cabinetry, and basic carcas construction. These are really worth the investment prior to cutting any wood.

[Scott Lemmers]

Scott, that is a really open-ended question. "How much money" you can save depends on so many variables that I don't think you can get into the ballpark with an answer or even a percentage quess - such things as size and configuration of the kitchen, wood, style, finish, details of trim, countertop and the level of quality you are considering. (Not to mention the whims and wishes of the other half.)

I suggest you work up a plan and have it priced out with cabinets you like. Then make up a materials list and price out the cost of the wood, drawer slides, hinges, knobs, swivels, etc., etc. Don't forget to include the cost of new tools - or at least cutters, blades, finishes and other expendables (I always justify the new tool cost by what I am saving - sort of a circular calculation!! It works for me when it works for the wife.) Then, put a value on your time and you can get pretty close. Of course, the value of your time varies with the availability of your time - which also varies by the time of year - for me, during fishing season I put a pretty high value on my time - during the winter it is a different story - to each his or her own.

Just remember, standing back and looking at your completed work is priceless and it gets even better when others marvel at your labors.
Ray
Ray,

Thank you for your answer. I realize there are many variables to consider. I want to build a top quality cabinet
and it seems that everything I want standard in my cabinets are high end up grades in the home stores.
I was hoping somebody out there did the leg work for me and built their own cabinets after pricing them at a home store. I was curious if anybody could guess at a percentage of savings. As you stated above, I am trying to convince my wife to go along with this so I can justify a new table saw.
The things we are willing to do to justify new tools will always baffle me.

[Scott Lemmers]

Mike,

Thank you for the reply. I am not going to the extreme. I am going to build with maple or hickory and use 3/4 ply where I can.
I am going to do a shaker door or maybe a simple raised pannel.
Over all, nothing to dramatic just good and solid.

[Silas Smith]

If you are trying to justify a new table saw, the savings will be significant. You can expect to save two to three times the cost of a powermatic 66. What was it that you were building again?

[Ray Bersch]

I am trying to convince my wife to go along with this so I can justify a new table saw.
Well why didn't you just come out and say that in the first place??? I am SURE you will save almost (*) percent - yep, I am sure of that. Don't the rest of you guys agree?;)

(* insert the number you want)

Anyway, Scott, it is very difficult because there is no baseline for any of us to work from to try to help you. Your quality cabinet may be junk to others. One thing to consider, though, is making the boxes yourself and buying the doors from a door maker - that worked for me when I got started because I could convince the wife that she was getting the look she wanted and I was saving money on the box and the labor. "Look, honey, here is the door, same as in the store." Remember, you may be looking for logic, she is working from emotion - like oil and water, the two do not mix.

Sorry I can't be of more help.
Ray

[Ray Bersch]

Scott,
I had to go to dinner after my last answer to you and I gave some additional thought on how to help - then I read your answer to Mike which added some additional info from you.

I believe you will find (as I have) that you will not save a lot of money on the cabinets and counter tops alone if you are using the likes of Home Depot or Lowes as your baseline. You simply cannot buy the products they use at the price they can - and besides, you want a higher quality product anyway. Even using a good 3/4 plywood for the basic box is an upgrade (and an overkill) from the particle board or 3/8 inch ply used by box manufactures - and it goes on from there - you want a biefier face frame or thicker door panel - and consider a decent drawer slide for twelve to fifteen bucks compared with the slides used by the box manufactures - they pay a buck a piece and if you wanted to duplicate their slide you will pay six bucks at HD. If you were to compare a good custom cabinet cost, say from a good local cabinet shop, with the cost of doing it yourself, then I believe you will have a substantial savings - you will be getting closer to apples to apples rather than apples to oranges. And your savings will mostly come from the labor, not the material.

But all is not lost - I assume you had intended to install the cabinets yourself anyway and you have the skills for that plus any basic plumbing or electrical. Now that is where you are saving big bucks. In this area of New Jersey labor costs of over $50 per hour for basic carpentry work is the usual - and that is not for really skilled labor. Cabinet installation is still production work and you can tell that if you look closely. It may take you a lot longer to do the job but the results will be better and the cost savings significant - get a price for installation from your home center, it will be in the low thousands - there is your new saw and then some. (But then, you had that before you started this thread, didn't you?) Consider, also, that the cabinets you build will actualy fit - you won't have fillers all over the place, that is one thing that makes up a custom job and that is where you save additional money.

Ok, still no numbers, what can I say?

[Jim Becker]

Scott, I can tell you...substantial savings is possible as long as you have the time to do the work. When I did our major kitchen renovation in 2003, I did all the work myself, excepting the gas line, the soapstone counters and the drywall. (I subbed the latter because I hate doing it and could work while it was being completed over a week...my office is at home when I am not traveling and I made sure I was home all week) A kitchen like I did would have run about $60K in this area for the equivalent from a contractor...we checked with several. We did the whole job for $20 and that included the high-end appliances...they about half the total cost. My cost for cabinet materials was about a grand and a half of that. (Bought the drawer boxes to save time)

http://sawsndust.com/images/kitchen-remodel/kr-tile-2-280.jpg

[Scott Lemmers]

Jim,

That is a beautiful job on your kitchen!!!
The stove looks like it costs $20K alone! Similar to the one I want even though my wife prefers to cook from the microwave.
I appreciate your information and couldn't agree more about doing drywall, that is the one job I will always sub out.
I have about $25K set aside for the project to include counters, flooring and appliances.
Hopefuly I can stay close to the budget.
Thanks again.

[Jim Becker]

Scott, investing in better appliances pays off in both personal enjoyment and in home resale value later should that become necessary. Kitchens are pretty much the one room that you can recoup a lot of your renovation investment and when you have the ability to do the work (competently) yourself, your "profit margin" becomes huge in that respect.

The range in the picture is a DCS all-gas unit with six 17000 BTU burners and an 18000 BTU grill (barbecue type, not a griddle) plus two ovens; one will take a commercial sized pan. I would have preferred dual-fuel, and as is often the case with hindsight, the $1800 extra would have been more than managable. But we are very happy with the all gas product and it really cooks wonderfully...you can get the heat when you need it but, it has a simmer setting on every burner that you can lay a $20 bill on the grate and it will not burn. The dishdrawers are by Fisher-Paykel and are really awesome. Very, very energy efficient and with two in the space of a regular dishwasher, it give a lot of flexiblity. We felt it was a better investment than a standard style in the long run and will be even more valuable when our kids enter the mix within a year. We priced this stuff at a number of places, but were able to get a great price match at Expo (a type of Home Depot operation in many major metropolitan areas) that saved us thousands. The range and dishdrawers were under $8K...delivered. The GE Profile Arctica side-by-side fridge was a "scratch and dent" special locally for a grand off the list price. (The dent was in the side that is totally hidden since it's a cabinet-depth unit. The original buyer refused delivery because of that small 1" long dent that would never be seen. Our gain! ;) )

Really, do you own if you can so you can put the money towards nicer appliances, sink and fixtures, lighting, etc. It's worth it, IMHO. Both Dr. SWMBO and I cook and really enjoy it more now.

[Earl Kelly]

Scott, I'm sorry, but you will not save any money doing it yourself. You will buy better appliances, higher grade wood for cabinets and of course your going to have to have a lot of new tools.

But you will have a much nicer product than what you can buy. I hope your wife will go along, you need to make sure she will be happy, 'cause if she ain't happy nobodys happy!

If you don't have much experience with cabinets you might want to buy the drawers and doors and just build the boxes it would make for a faster job. I know several cabinetmakers that do that.

[Bill Neely]

I just got a quote today for maple plywood: 3/4" two good faces, @ ~85.00 per sheet; 1/4" two good faces, MDF core @ ~75.00 per sheet. That's from a local lumberyard and I may be able to do better out of town.

[Lars Thomas]

Scott, to put things in perspective, The materials for the 8' cabinets below (link) was about $675. The quote from HD was $2400. The boxes are 1/2" birch, face frames, drawers and doors are cherry.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=9501

[Jay Knoll]

Scott

Don't overlook the IKEA alternative if you've got a store nearby


http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=11042


I installed this kitchen last year, the cabinets hinges, handles came to $5,000 (including approximately $1,000 in shipping since we didn't have an IKEA nearby. The carcasses are melmaine, all the doors are sollid wood stiles/rails with plywood veener -- european oak. Hinges are Blum.

In addtion to the favorable price, the IKEA line had more box sizes, we were able to do this design but couldn't replicate it with the cabinets available at any of the big box stores. I took our layout into them for compariative pricing, but neither of them could make it work. So part of our decision was influenced by the flexibilty the IKEA products provided.

You'll have to put some sweat equity into assembly, the cabinets come knocked down. I was super careful putting them together but as a result, I had to adjust only one door. The rest were aligned perfectly -- attach hinges to door, hold door up to cabinet, screw in hinge and close the door!

Saving money on the cabinets gave us the chance to put in the granite counter tops, high end range hood etc.

If you want more details, PM me, I'll be glad to tell you more about my experience.

Jay

[Scott Lemmers]

Lars,

The cabinets look great. Your information was extremely helpful and was exactly what I was looking for.
Thank you for your help.

[Scott Lemmers]

Thanks Jay,

I saw your kitchen and loved the back slash. Great looking transformation, hard to believe those are knock down cabinets.
We have an IKEA in Chicago near one of my offices so I may stop in and look around.

[Jim Becker]

We have an IKEA in Chicago near one of my offices so I may stop in and look around.
Yea, even I, who loves to roll my own cabinetry and furniture, will admit that Ikea's offerings in the kitchen department are very compelling. And they get better every year. I could not use them in my particular kitchen situation due to some close tolerances and odd sizing, but would consider them if the situation ever came up again, purely for the time savings. Gutting and rebuilding a kitchen (or any other room for that matter) is major work and time does factor into it when you are doing your own work. Families are somewhat "sensitive" to kitchen unavailability after a bit... ;)

[Charlie Plesums]

My first kitchen cost $800 with refurbished applicances, formica counters (remember that stuff), cheap stainless sink, etc. but all solid plywood cabinets, hardwood from a mill S2S. It took a year to build, using only a RAS. Today's plywood would probably have raised the cost to $1000.

My second kitchen was a little more, with a lot more cabinets, and another year-long project.

Kitchens number 3 and 4, I bought the cabinets and installed them myself. Couldn't face the year of pushing plywood and face frame hardwood through the RAS.

I recently bought a combo machine (size and cost of a small car). Everything is so much faster that any of the kitchens could have been done in weeks, not a year. My wife's comment was that I should have bought the combo decades ago. And she is a CPA.

Until recently I was a computer type who moved occasionally with the job. The only downside of having the combo years ago is the thought of a couple furniture moving guys trying to get the 2200 pound machine into the moving van.

[David Fried]

I think I spent about 7,000 ten years ago. I couldn't get the doors I wanted, a simple shakerish panel and had to accept what they could make. As far as I can tell all the joinery is done with a router (or could be).

When I recently had to disassemble some of it to put in a dishwasher I learned that if you can't see it, it isn't there! The cabinets with doors have a plywood back. The units with drawers don't have a back. Or a bottom!

If you do it yourself you can get the doors you want and you'll know how they are made.

[Greg Heppeard]

You can figure that a custom cabinet shop could charge you approx $190/ft for base cabinets and 150/ft for uppers. This is a base price and drawer banks in the lowers is an increase, as are raised panel doors, lazy susans, etc. Remember that this is an unfinished and uninstalled price.

[larry merlau]

in my opinion its what you get after your done that counts more than the dollars. i am in the process of doing the same thing you are asking i have gotten all the materials and am over half way done on them for a complete kitchen that threw one of the box stores were 6500, as of this time all materials and some tool costs added in, i am at 1900 labor isnt included. also to agree with the others,these will fit in the (croooked) house they are headed for. and they will be better than the others in quality. my vote is to go for it and do as they suggest get your no.s but you cant compete against there volume buying of the materails.. but they cant compare to your pride in doing it yourself :cool:

[Russ Massery]

I'm on my second kitchen, (were in the planing stages now)the first was my first real woodworking project a freind offer to help if I bought materials. That was fifteen years ago. I went the local home center for ideas and layout help. After it was complete I figured I saved over $3500 compared the quote I got from the home center for the same layout. Also would been forced to use filler peices because the stock cabinets didn't come in the sizes I neeed. We were able the custom sizes that I need which would have added the cost per foot and added a lot of time to the order.(3-4 weeks). I'm glad I build them myself.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

You can save a ton building them on your own and have much better cabinets. I make mine out of 3/4" ply instead of the industry standard of 1/2" particle board. I can tell you the materials list I have for our cabinets is about half what anyone else will charge us.

[Brad Hammond]

scott........... lett'r rip tater chip!!!!!!!!!! go for it! i just got done building my parents a set of cabinets and this was the largest project i'd taken on to day.
around here (north alabama) the prices were running pretty much in line with the prior response. 200/ft for base 160/ft for uppers. and that's with 1/2" birch ply. i figure i built about 10k worth of cabinets and vanities for around $2500. i think u'll save quite abit of money if u go for it.

the only real problem that i had was with design. the sky's the limit and there's a whole lot of sky to choose from. once i finally decided on a style that seemed to flow with the rest of the house the choices were narrowed down and i could see through all the clutter.
also, when i started out i knew story sticks were a tool to use for layout, but NEVER knew they could be so handy!! u can lay the whole wall out in one whack and continually refer back to the thing if u forget what ure trying to do by the time u get back to the saw, like i do. hehe

remember........... it's just a bunch of boxes! ;)

cya
brad

[Steve Bagi]

Jim,

Just curious, where did you buy your drawers and what kind of hardware (slides/hinges) did you use?

[Jim Becker]

Steve, I made arrangements via a friend who is a cabinetmaker to get the drawer boxes from an outfit in the Lancaster area. They don't sell to end-users, unfortunately. I did get them knocked down and unfinished to save shipping cost...assembled them and clear coated with WB lacquer in about one day. The slides I used for the small drawers are Blum center mounted concealed units and the big drawers use Blum full-extension, heavy duty slides. Hinges are Deltana brushed nickle coated brass.

[Scott Lemmers]

I just wanted to send out a thank you to those who have responded!
I appreciate all of the information you have passed along. It was exactly what I was hoping for when posting the message.
This is truely a useful forum.

Thank you!!