WTB Table Saw NEED ADVISE PLEASE???

[Matt Johnson]

My wife and I just bought a house with a shop so I am starting a small woodworking shop for a new hobby. Other than a few years of woodworking classes in high school, 7 years ago, I am new to woodworking. I bought a 13" Deta planer, Craftsmen router and table and other tools for woodworking. I have a $80 Delta table saw that is good for nothing so I am looking for a much better table saw.
I want a the best table saw I can get for $600.00 or less (the lesser the better but no junk). I have been looking on Amazon.com at a Delta CS 36-680 and the TS350. I am not set on Delta so please make any recommendations you want. $600.00 is the most I will spend being that I am just starting out. I am also interested in the Delta TS350 at $370.00. I plan to make things like hope chest, dressers, curio cabinets and I also want to reface my kitchen cabinets so I want one that works well for that sort of work. I know a cabinet saw would be best but I can't spend that kind of money on one at this time. Any info. on what table saws to buy or NOT buy in my price range would be appreciated. Thanks.

[Corey Hallagan]

Go for the CS 36-680, much better saw than the TS350 which is a direct drive saw. I bought the CS 36-675 ($399) at home depot, same as the 680 only the 680 has cast iron extensions, where as the 675 has the stamped steel extensions. For $399, it is a great saw, but the sale may now be very hard to find in stock, been going on for 6 weeks or so. The Amazon deal has free shipping on the 36 680 and a free mobile stand or other accessory. Either one will be a good table saw for you. If you want the 36-675 and can't find it at home depot, Sears sells it for 499.00 a great saw at that price as well. Again, pass on the TS 350, it is a universal motor and a lesser fence.The 675 and 680 contractors saw both come with the T2 fence which is a very nice fence.

ALso, many many are very happy with the new Craftsman Hybid Saws. There are 3 saws in this class. The lowest priced of the three can be had for less and 500.00 on sale. It is a 1 3/4 horsepower saw and is pretty darn nice. From what I have been told, the fence on the lower priced saw isn't as good as the Delta T2 fence though. Any of those saws would make a good table saw for you. They are made by ORION who is made up of former Delta employees. They also make the Delta Hybid tables saws as well. Good luck on your decision and let us know what you get!!

Almost forgot, you might want to check out the Grizzly line. I know many are fans of their contractors saw. Like Delta contractor saws, they sell a saw under $500.00 with stamped steel extensions and also one with cast iron extensions for just under 600.00. You have to figure in freight though, no free shipping!

Corey

[Ed Blough]

Again, pass on the TS 350, it is a universal motor and a lesser fence.


Corey
Actually the TS350 is an induction motor or so I'm told by Delta.

[Corey Hallagan]

Ed, I stand corrected. The TS 350 is indeed a 1 HP Induction Motor.

Thanks,
Corey

[Mike Holbrook]

I like my General 50-185 contractor saw and it is about at your max dollar figure. This saw won best overal, best value best readers selection in the 2005 Fine Wood working Tool review (against saws like the Delta Contractor, Powermatic 64 and Dewalt DW746) that cost up to twice as much). Other than coming with bad directions it is a great product with much more power than most saws in that price range.

Check it out:
http://www.general.ca/product/inter/50175an.html

[Charlie Plesums]

The cast iron tables do add a lot of value in providing a larger flat reference area and providing mass that dampens any vibration - I would be sure that you consider that "upgrade" in whatever you choose.

The rip fence is far more important than people initially think. There are a couple aluminum ones on the market that perform very well, including the one used on the Ridgid 3612 (which I used for several years) and 3650. I hear the Aluminum fence on the Grizzly contractor saws performs well - much like the good (not aluminum) fence on their cabinet saws.

Although this last suggestion will lead to a religous war I recommend a left tilt, with 36 inches or more to the right of the blade.

[James Carmichael]

Matt

I don't own a TS, but I've sure read a lot about them since starting out a couple years ago with a Craftsman (yeah, I know) which to their credit, Sears took back when I realized it was junk. After that, I went for a bandsaw, jointer, and planer, and a good TS is next on my list (which is far in the future as it's tax time).

The Ridgid TS3650 got a good review from one of the wood mags recently (I can't keep all the names straight) and is under your $600 ceiling.

I don't know if this is any good or not, I know Sunhill machinery gets a lot of good reviews out here, but $695 for a good cabinet saw seems too good to be true:

http://www.sunhillmachinery.com/TableSaws%20CT250T.htm

[Tyler Howell]

Welcome Matt,

A lot of good advise here. I suffered trying to decide and it all finally paid off. Shop and read and research some more. Get what you want.
Glad to have you wading in the creek.

[scott spencer]

Hi Matt - Welcome to the forum AND to this great hobby! As mentioned, the 36-680 is alot more saw than the TS350. It's a full size contractor saw with a standard table the same size as a cabinet saw (27"d x 40"w). The T2 fence is a good steel t-square design fence, and you'll come to love the cast iron wings. A saw like this can last a lifetime and be all you'll need. It also happens to be a great deal on sale through Rockler @ $575 with free mobile base and $50 rebate....there might be more to the deal than that, but that's what I remember.

Also as mentioned, the Sears 22114 home duty cabinet saw goes on sale near $500 often. It has two cast iron wings, an enclosed base (good dust collection), and cabinet mounted trunnions (easy alignment)....plus some other neat features. Last night was "Friends and Family" night, which offered an additional 10% off the price of $599. Sears offers an e-mail internet coupon that's good for another 10%. Sign up for the their free "Craftsman Club" for additional sales and benefits.

IMHO, these are about the best two saws going right now for under $600 right now. Good luck and please keep us posted!

[Corey Hallagan]

Listen to Scott, he knows table saws ! I gladly blame him for the reason I bought the Delta 36-675 saw.

Corey

[scott spencer]

Listen to Scott, he knows table saws ! I gladly blame him for the reason I bought the Delta 36-675 saw. Corey ....still waitin' on that commission check!...

[Corey Hallagan]

Scott the hold up is probably because I still haven't assembled it!! I know, I know. Soon!! I did buy a Dewalt Series 40 combination blade and a Grizzly dial indicator and magnetic base! Getting closer!

Corey

[scott spencer]

snip... I hear the Aluminum fence on the Grizzly contractor saws performs well - Hi Charlie - If the Grizzly fence you mentioned is the one I'm thinking of, I just wanted to clarify that the "Aluma Classic" is a steel Biese type fence much like the SF Classic on many of the 1023 cabinet saw models. The rails are steel and the fence body has aluminum faces over a steel tube instead of UHMW plastic. http://www.grizzly.com/products/item.cfm?itemnumber=H5742

[Matt Johnson]

I could not find the Delta saw on rockler.com. I also looked at the Craftsmen 22114 and I like it alot. The only thing I don't like about it is the smaller rip capacity of 24 left and 25 right. The delta has a 30" to right but then again the 22114 has some better features too. The free mobile base with the delta would be nice as I would want to move it now and then. They both seem like great saws. At nearly the same price it's a hard to make up my mind. I would like to hear more about what you guys think about these two saws. Thanks!

[Matt Johnson]

What saw has the better fence? The fence on my cheap delta table saw moves alot when I use it.

[scott spencer]

What saw has the better fence? The fence on my cheap delta table saw moves alot when I use it. Alot will boil down to what features on the saw are most important to you. Dust collection is better on the 22114, but the 36-680's DC can be improved without much difficulty. The Sears also has a smaller footprint, but IMO the T2 Delta fence is better than the aluminum Sears fence. Although I think the Sears rip capacity can be increased by sliding the rails over to the right a bit further when you mount them. The cabinet trunnions on the Sears should stay aligned better and be easier to align than the Delta trunnions. The serpentine belt on the Sears is a plus over a standard v-belt. The Delta name will probably get higher resale.

.....executive decision time! (If all this is really driving you nuts, see if you can get the 22124 for < $700 and the best of both worlds!) Don't forget....this is fun!

[Larry D. Wagner]

:) Matt

For the dollar figure you mentioned I think the Ridgid TS3650 is as good a buy as is out there. There have been a lot of discussions on the various boards about it. I own one and did a lot of research and touching before I made my decision. This is one great TS.

My .02 worth

Larry :) :) :)

[Matt Johnson]

If I could get the 22124 for $700 I would. Right now it's on sale for $849. I will also check out the Ridgid. This is driving me nuts but I guess it's best to ask questions and look for the best deal. I want a ts that will make me happy for a long long time. Is there any brands I should not consider?

[Tim Morton]

southern-tool.com has the powermatic 64 on sale for 649 with free shipping...and it has a 30" right side cut and a nice fence.

[Corey Hallagan]

Matt, I don't think there are any specific table saws or brands that have been mentioned that don't deserve consideration. It is a matter of what is most important for you for a given price, dust collection, fence, table size, foot print etc. Good luck.

Corey

[Matt Johnson]

I have checked out all the saws and they are all very nice. I still like the Delta 36-680 for the price and features and yes, the name. I also like the craftsmen 22124 but it's well over my spending price at this time. I am going to Sears Friday to see if I can get a better deal on it some how or at another sale time. Might as well try, I like the 22124 the best so far. Thanks for all the great advise. If anyone has anymore advise please let me know.

[Mike Holbrook]

Yes, the fence is very important.

One of, if not the favorite fence out there is the Biesmier. General use to make Biesmier, before Delta bought them. There are many "clones" out there that are not as good a fence as the real thing. The General CS has a Canadian made fence just like the ones they use to make under the Beismier name. At least thats the way I heard it. I can testify that the fence on my General CS is very nice.

The weight, size and flatness of the table is also very important. Again I think you will find it very difficult to beat the General table in that price range.

One other issue is the motor. The general has a very good 2 horse motor that will simply outsaw most of the others.

[Jim Andrew]

Couple of weeks ago someone posted a website that had some scratch
and dent tools. One of those was the Powermatic 64, I remember checking
it out. The 64 should be given some consideration, considering it is an
upgrade from the Delta contractors saw, and the fence looks exactly like
a biesemeier. Jim

[Bill Fields]

tough choices Matt--your $600 limit could read $500 or $700--lots of choices there.
Just bought--on a whim--the Hitachi table saw offered at Lowes for $499. Seems to be a good--not great--core machine--stamped wings--decent alum. fence--poor instructions--mobile casters are about a "B" compared to other aftermarket bases that I have.

I'm pretty good at my 12" really OLD Craftsman radial arm saw, so there is going to be a learning curve for me with this saw.

Check the paper for local sale of real cabinet saws like Jet/Delta/General/etc.--good used ones can be had for 1/2 or less than their new cost. IT'S NOT LIKE A CAR THAT YOU WILL TRADE IN A COUPLE OR THREE YEARS--THINK OF IT AS BEING "STUCK" WITH IT--so it ought to be the best you can afford.

Good luck--and never stop learning!

BF

[Charlie Plesums]

What saw has the better fence? The fence on my cheap delta table saw moves alot when I use it.
The several years that I owned a Ridgid 3612 (which has the same fence as the current 3650) the fence was solid enough that I routinely did rips to 1/64 or even 1/128 inch. I might have been able to force it out of alignment, but I didn't want to - I found that with care I could cut a sheet of plywood with a shallow cut (to avoid rip out on the bottom) followed by a through cut in the same kerf - a pretty tough test of the stability of the fence.

The Ridgid also has a gizmo built into the Trunion that makes it easy to align. I only had to do it once (to improve it from very good to excellent), and it held it's alignment, but it was far easier to do than on most contractor saws.

I hear the Ridgid 3650 has a dust collector shroud on the blade under the table. I haven't seen it, but tried to invent something like that - dust collection is an issue on a contractor saw.

Be wary of any saw that claims over 1 1/2 hp. That is the maximum size that you can power from a home circuit and get the UL rating. There are lots of ways to rate the power of motors, so (for example) your 3 hp router really only has a peak rating of 3 hp - but less power than the continuous rating on a 1 1/2 hp table saw.

If the Ridgid was so good why did I switch? I got a $17,000 European combination machine... another story, but I think most would call it a legitimate upgrade from any contractor saw. Since the upgrade was recent, most of the furniture on my web site was made with the Ridgid.

There are lots of good saws in this price range, so I tried to stay vendor neutral in my previous post. I don't think Ridgid is getting enough consideration - I selected that saw and loved it - it served me well.

[Frank Pellow]

First of all welcome to Saw Mill Creek Matt.

I researched table saws for over a year before purchasing the one that I did. In the end, I opted for a cabinet saw (General 650), but if had opted for a saw at about your price, it would have been a Ridgid. Since I have a good GCSS (guided circular saw system), I think that would have been a choice that I was happy with. I do like my General very much but it might be more than I really require.

[scott spencer]

Hi Charlie - I'm afraid Matt could find himself in the middle of an arbor problem with the current inventories of 3650's. With so many excellent choices, it'd be a shame to buy a brand new saw that needs an immediate trip to the service center.

[Matt Johnson]

I do like the 3650 but I read alot about the arbor troubles on the rigid website. It does sound like an easy fix but I don't want to buy something I have to fix it right away. other than that the nearest HD is over 80 miles from me and as far as I know that is the only store that sells them. I guess I am still stuck on the 22124. It has all the features I want, however I don't now how well built Craftsman is these days. I also like that Sears is close to home. I can order it there and pick it up there. Not sure if I would have to take it to sears for service or some other place. If I can get a ts I like with out mail order that would be best. I would hate to order a 300+/- lb saw and have to ship it back because something is wrong with it. Service, warranty, and available accsessories and upgrades are also important to me. I would like to here from anyone who has used the 22124 or other craftsman ts like it and also from anyone who has used the delta cs 36 680. If I do chose to order from amazon I have to pick from the delta 680, powmatatic 64 (1791227K) and the Grizzly G04442. Any thoughts on the Grizzly?

[Michael Perata]

Matt

I am going to stand with James and say your first table saw should be a bandsaw. Except for cutting sheets of plywood, not much you can't do on a bandsaw that you can do on a table saw.

[Frank Pellow]

Matt

I am going to stand with James and say your first table saw should be a bandsaw. Except for cutting sheets of plywood, not much you can't do on a bandsaw that you can do on a table saw.
And, for cutting sheets of plywood, you should be using a GCSS (guided circular saw system) rather than a table saw.

[Ed Blough]

Matt

I am going to stand with James and say your first table saw should be a bandsaw. Except for cutting sheets of plywood, not much you can't do on a bandsaw that you can do on a table saw.
I got to ask how do you crosscut boards longer than throat of you band saw?
Let us say you cutting stiles and rails that are 18 inches long how would you cut them on a band saw? How would you get repeatability?

I'm not saying you can't I just don't know how so I'm asking to learn.
Thanks

[Wes Bischel]

Matt,
Another option that could stretch your dollars further is to buy a used saw. I picked up a Delta/Rockwell contractors saw - all cast iron top/extensions and trunnions (early 70's vintage prior to the cost reductions) for $100.
You may be able to find something newer and upgrade the fence etc.

Buying used isn't for everyone, but it does make the budget go farther if you choose wisely.

Good luck,

Wes

[scott spencer]

...snip...(the 22124) has all the features I want, however I don't now how well built Craftsman is these days. I also like that Sears is close to home. Not sure if I would have to take it to sears for service or some other place. If I can get a ts I like with out mail order that would be best. I would hate to order a 300+/- lb saw and have to ship it back because something is wrong with it. Service, warranty, and available accsessories and upgrades are also important to me. I would like to here from anyone who has used the 22124 or other craftsman ts like it and also from anyone who has used the delta cs 36 680. If I do chose to order from amazon I have to pick from the delta 680, powmatatic 64 (1791227K) and the Grizzly G04442. Any thoughts on the Grizzly? Matt - The 22124 is made by Orion International who also makes the Delta 36-717 hybrid. These saws are very similar except that the 22124 has the cab mounted trunnions vs table mounted trunnions....the 22124 has more features and accessories too. IMHO this is the best saw Sears has offered in years. They offer a 2 year in home warranty for $39.99...100% of which is refundable up to 12 months after purchase. A good friend of mine got one Sunday night for $850 on sale minus 10% special sale, minus 10% internet coupon. He even got a $15 coupon for the warranty. (PM me if you want a link to get a $75 gift card.)

Powermatic has a couple of versions of the 64. The PM64a with cast iron wings and Biese clone fence is normally in the $900 range...amazon has it for $769 delivered, but there goes your local service. There's a stripped down version with steel wings and the Microglide fence for ~ $650....still a nice saw.

The Griz is a nice saw too, but is mail order only. There's about 4 versions to choose from. All have a really good fence, 2 are left tilt, 2 right tilt, 2 with cast iron wings....those with cast iron wings also have a 2hp motor that requires either a 30amp 110v circuit or 220v.

I agree with the used possibilities, but it's not for everyone, and I know I really like the feeling of opening up a brand new machine. Hope this helps.

[Matt Johnson]

I have made up my mind to go with the 22124. It may be more of a saw than I need at this time but I would rather grow into the saw I buy than out of it. I also want local service on something this big. Thanks to all for your advise. It may be a few weeks before I get it but I will let you know how I like it.

[Michael Perata]

I got to ask how do you crosscut boards longer than throat of you band saw?
Let us say you cutting stiles and rails that are 18 inches long how would you cut them on a band saw? How would you get repeatability?

I'm not saying you can't I just don't know how so I'm asking to learn.
Thanks
Ed

I have taken to using a L-N cross cut hand saw and a shooting board for one or two cuts. Much more accurate than any power saw.

It takes too long to pull the MiniMax combo out for one cut, and my CMS is buried.

As for a plywood saw - Festool has a great system out for guided cuts without tearout.

[Ed Blough]

Ed

I have taken to using a L-N cross cut hand saw and a shooting board for one or two cuts. Much more accurate than any power saw.

It takes too long to pull the MiniMax combo out for one cut, and my CMS is buried.

As for a plywood saw - Festool has a great system out for guided cuts without tearout.
Believe it or not I watched a Ukraine craftsman build a bookcase using hardwood, a pencil, hammer, screw driver, some hand planes, tape measure and nail set and a hand saw. He both cross cut and ripped the wood using 2 hand saws. When he was done he had a built in bookshelf on an 8x20foot wall. I don't think many of us could have built it better using all machines. The amazing part is had it built and ready to finish in about a day or so. He didn’t speak much English but I kept offering to cut his wood on my saw and he would just smile and wave me off. He could rip an 8 ft board using his version of shooting board in about 5 minutes ( I actually never timed him I just stood there with my mouth open) and I don’t think you could get the edge much better on a jointer.

[Darren Ford]

Matt,

Sears recently instituted a new policy that I am afraid might affect your ability to get the routine deals on the 22124. Previously, anytime a "Craftsman Club" sale was in effect, Craftsman Club members could get 10% of *any* Craftsman tool. With the last sale, the policy changed, and only the items specifically listed in the flyer are eligible for the discount.

It was routine to hit a 10% sale, 10% craftsman club discount, and then combine the 10% internet coupon and get the saw for $680. I personally managed to hit a 20% off sale, 10% CC sale, and had a coupon and got mine for $609. I've even heard of people getting it for $580. It looks like it might be more difficult to get those killer deals in the future.

Good luck and be sure to watch the sales and ask before you buy and we can try to make sure you have every combination of discount available.

[Matt Johnson]

I did not go with the 22124 due only to the fact that no one at the local sears seemed to know anything about what they are selling and getting the discounts are tricky too. Maybe I gave up on a good saw to soon. To make a long story short I left the store with no confidence in sears or there service and I was alittle ticked off. I got on amazon.com and ordered a Powermatic 1791228K 64 left tilt with a 50" accu-fence. After reading the reviews on this saw I thought it would be as good or better than any in the same price range. I hope I made a good choice. I also like the 50" better than the 30". Should be hard to outgrow. This was the hardest choice I have had to make in a very long time. I really appreciate how nice everyone was about helping me. Thanks!!

[Jim O'Dell]

I did not go with the 22124...(snip)... I got on amazon.com and ordered a Powermatic 1791228K 64 left tilt with a 50" accu-fence. (snip)
This was the hardest choice I have had to make in a very long time. I really appreciate how nice everyone was about helping me. Thanks!!

Matt, Congrats on your new saw. I bet it will work out great for you.
Just wait until you start deciding on a band saw. You ain't seen nuthin' yet!!!!! Jim.

[Corey Hallagan]

Congrats on the new saw Matt! You have to post pics when she arrives!

Corey

[Mark Stutz]

Michael,
I was under the impression from the WW show, that the LN hand saw was still a prototype and not yet ready. Do you have an inside contact? :D

Matt,
Congrats on the saw. Sorry about the "off thread topic" question.

Mark

[scott spencer]

Congrats Matt - I'm sure you'll be happy with that saw for along time!