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View Full Version : Newbie help....specialty planes....buy new or used??



George Farra
01-06-2012, 10:56 AM
Hi Guys

I've sucessfully accumulated used stanley bench planes (#3, 4, 5, & 7) on the bay. I want to expand my use of handtools and an interested in getting a router plane and a plow plane. My brain thinks of these tools as being "refined" tools in that they need a level of accuracy that a bench plane may not need.

For a router plane....an I better off looking for a used stanley 71 or buy it new?

For a plow plane.....find a used Stanley 45 or buy new?

All thougths and inputs would be greatly appreciatted

Thank you

George

Chris Griggs
01-06-2012, 11:04 AM
I took the route of new for my specialty planes. All my bench planes are vintage, but my router, rabbet, and plow (just got the plow which made for very merry Xmas to me!!) are all Veritas and I also have a small LN shoulder plane. At this point I can pretty readily get just about about any bench plane up and running, but for specialty planes I didn't know what to look for or really what would be involved with fettling them. The other thing with speciaily planes is that you need to know enough to know if all the parts are there.

The LV planes I mentioned are sweet and virtually idiot proof (although the skew rabbet has a bit of a learning curve).

All that said, a stanley 71 works quite well, its just not as nice to setup or adjust as the Veritas - same with the stanley 45.

I'm glad I went new for these planes and feel that it was money well spent. I would love some new bench planes too, but for me that has always been more of a want then a need since my vintage bench planes do everything I need them to do, so I prioritized spending the big bucks on the specialty planes.

Prashun Patel
01-06-2012, 11:11 AM
The older 'specialty' planes tend to be pricier than their used vanilla bench plane counterparts IMHO because of rarity - not because of increased utility necessarily.

I humbly submit that b4 a router you look at a shoulder plane. Veritas and LN make very nice ones; you'll be hard pressed to find a quality 'vintage' plane for much cheaper that works much better than these.

In any plane, IMHO the single biggest factor is the blade. Even on vintage planes, I've found they almost always work better by replacing the blade.

With a new LN or Veritas you won't have that issue; their stock blades are great.

Mike Holbrook
01-06-2012, 11:16 AM
Dang I screwed up my post and Chris beat me to the punch. I am of the same opinion as Chris, and he actually saved me the time of having to retype all that info. I have bought many saws, braces, hand drills, screwdriver/drills.....at auction but elected not to buy specialty planes that way. For me there are too many small parts and moving mechanisms on the specialty planes for me to feel comfortable risking paying their premium auction prices.

Chris Griggs
01-06-2012, 11:21 AM
I humbly submit that b4 a router you look at a shoulder plane.

I completely (yet still humbly) disagree with this (sorry Prashaun). Maybe it's becasue I haven't had a shoulder plane as long as I've had a router but I think a router plane is a far more invaluable tool. I guess to some extent it might depend on whether or not you are creating or tweaking joinery. If I were just refining joinery I might find a shoulder plane more useful than a router plane, but I find a router INDISPENSABLE for both creating and fine fitting joinery. I know a lot folks consider a shoulder to be a must have tool, but I tend to group it into the "very nice to have when you need it, but not completely necessary" category. Not saying you shouldn't get one at some point, just saying I think its a good idea to get a router first. Again, that may be because I got by without one for so long, but I've had a router plane for a couple years now. Also, if I didn't have the skew rabbet, I can see myself finding a shoulder plane to be more essential.


And oh yeah, regarding the plow, keep in mind that Rob Lee has hinted that some new add ons for the LV plow will be coming out this year! Could make for one heck of a versatile tool.

Andrew Pitonyak
01-06-2012, 11:29 AM
I have strongly preferred my new LN planes. In general, the blades are better and the adjustments are better. I hear good things about the latest woodriver planes, but have not tired them. They come with a premium blade that I expect to perform well.

Very unhappy with my Premium Stanley shoulder plane, was unable to elicit a response from their warranty department, so based on advice from people here I repaired the broken part myself. I am not likely to buy another.

Note that I do own usable older planes that I purchased on ebay that someone else had "tuned up". They do function, but they do not adjust as well and the blade and chip-breaker do not function as well. I may bite the bullet (so to speak) and upgrade those parts.

One advantage to my LN planes is that the sides are square to the base, which means that I can use them to shoot.... and I did until I purchased a plane designed for the task.

When I went looking for a miter box, I could not find a good miter box that I liked new. I found it troublesome to find a nice used one, so I settled for the professional model sold by Lee Valley. My only complaint is that I would have preferred a backsaw, but I must admit that it seemed to work well. If I had found a full featured used one with all the pieces and parts I would have purchased it used.

I guess that my biggest problem with used is that I need to fully understand what I am purchasing so that I know if all the pieces are there and it will work as expected. If I purchase a LN, I can be certain that it will be good quality.

Prashun Patel
01-06-2012, 11:41 AM
Oooh, Chris, you've really given me food for thought. I had not previously considered a router plane a likely addition to my set. I do tend to cut tenons and rabbets and dados with other tools, but my shoulder plane has been invaluable. I'll reconsider...Which one do you own?
- p

Jerome Hanby
01-06-2012, 11:59 AM
I can't speak about a plow plane, I haven't been thinking about one, but I've been thinking about a router plane. I bought the miniature from LV and it is cute and if it is any indication, their full size one has to be impressive. But I've seen one in a fellow 'creekers post that was just beautiful. Think this (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?166955-I-like-tools-especially-those-made-by-the-user./page6) will get to the post (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?166955-I-like-tools-especially-those-made-by-the-user./page6)

Chris Griggs
01-06-2012, 12:08 PM
Oooh, Chris, you've really given me food for thought. I had not previously considered a router plane a likely addition to my set. I do tend to cut tenons and rabbets and dados with other tools, but my shoulder plane has been invaluable. I'll reconsider...Which one do you own?
- p

First let me warn you, I have a bit of a fetish with my router plane - I don't think everyone feels as passionate about router plane as I do. I have the large LV. It is possibly my favorite tool I own. It was the first premium plane I got and probably the last I would ever be without. Before I had a plow or a rabbet, the router often filled in (though not always ideally) for them, which is one reasons I love it so much. It allowed me to get a lot done in an under equipt shop. Even though I now have a more complete setup, the router is still one of those tools I constantly find uses for. I use mine to create joinery (mainly dados), but if nothing else it's a heck of a useful tweaking/fitting tool. It's a great way to fit/adjust tenons, half laps, dados, grooves, hinge mortises, and lord know what else. I use my router plane for so many things that in my shop a shoulder plane is used almost (but not quite) exclusively for, well, end grain shoulders on tenons and rabbets.

Come on Prashaun, give in to temptation... You know you want to:D

Jack Curtis
01-06-2012, 12:34 PM
I think Stanley planes are best left to the collectors, in all cases.

George Farra
01-06-2012, 1:01 PM
Guys,

Thank you very much for all the responses. My gut told me to go the new plane route for exactly the reasons noted above. To add some color, I do have the LV medium shoulder plane but I dont enjoy it that much. I started thinking about a router plane to create joinery....dados mostly. I currently use a chisel to plow out the bulk and the shoulder plane to clean the bottom. On anything wider than 1/2" I can seem to get a flat bottom side to side and equal depth along the length....so I figured a router plane would be better as it references off the face of the work and depth is set by the cutter. That got me thinking about the plow plane....why not just cut dado's with that?

Now that I've read your replies I realize that a router plane can be used for almost anything a shoulder plane can do so I think I'm going to start there and see if I need a plow plane later on.

Thanks again!!

George

Jack Curtis
01-06-2012, 1:08 PM
...Now that I've read your replies I realize that a router plane can be used for almost anything a shoulder plane can do so I think I'm going to start there and see if I need a plow plane later on.

Probably a true statement; but the router plane requires constant blade depth adjustment.

Andrae Covington
01-06-2012, 1:26 PM
Hi Guys

I've sucessfully accumulated used stanley bench planes (#3, 4, 5, & 7) on the bay. I want to expand my use of handtools and an interested in getting a router plane and a plow plane. My brain thinks of these tools as being "refined" tools in that they need a level of accuracy that a bench plane may not need.

For a router plane....an I better off looking for a used stanley 71 or buy it new?

For a plow plane.....find a used Stanley 45 or buy new?

All thougths and inputs would be greatly appreciatted

Thank you

George

I have a modern router plane (LV) and vintage plow (Marples M44) and rabbet/filletster (Millers Falls #85). In short, I think you're better off buying new if that's affordable for you.

The LV router plane is great and I don't regret buying it. A router plane seems like a pretty simple tool at first, but the little bells and whistles of the LV really make it a pleasure to use, like the screw height adjustment and locking depth stop.

The Marples M44 plow is the same as the Record #44 which is similar to the Stanley #50, a mid-size plow plane. I've never used the larger #45. The main complaint I have about my vintage plow is that the depth stop doesn't hold its position very well. Perhaps other vintage plow designs are better in that regard. The LV plow has a screw adjustment for the blade, which is a nice feature.

You didn't mention a rabbet plane but it's another specialty plane in the same category. The Millers Falls #85 is a copy of the Stanley #78. Other copies include the Sargent #79 and the Record #78. The fatal flaw in all of them is that the fence is only held by one post, and it wobbles. In 1959, Record acquired Woden Tools and introduced the Record #778 (formerly the Woden W78) which uses two posts for the fence. These were made until just a few years ago, but they're somewhat rare on this side of the pond and can be fairly expensive. Anant makes a copy of this two-post design they call the No. A 78, but the brand is not exactly renown for quality. (Anant also makes a single-post version they call the No. A 078 [note the leading zero] because confusion is a great marketing tool.)

Jim Koepke
01-06-2012, 1:32 PM
My accumulation of tools may be a bit contrarian. Only a few of my planes were purchased new. Yes, those are of better quality and sometimes better in function of my old rehabilitated planes.

With bench planes one of the often commented on features between old and new is the backlash of the blade depth adjuster. This is something that bothers many people. I just hum a tune while spinning the adjuster nut.

A complete Stanley 45 can be purchased for less than a new plow plane and at present may be more versatile.

Here is a post about the Stanley 45:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?116419-Planes-and-a-Few-Things-to-Look-For&p=1176704#post1176704

I haven't used any of the new plow planes, but it would not surprise me to find they are easier to set up than one of the older plow/multi-planes.

Currently I own a half dozen Stanley 45/55 planes. Sometimes they are all set up for different functions while working on a project.

I am not sure if the modern plows can be set up for matching boards, tongue and groove cutting. The beading and fluting cutters are often used on my planes. My 45/55 have also been used for making molding shapes to replicate pieces on old furniture.

When Lee Valley had a special price on some new router plane blades I bought a few and they are much better than my old blades.

The Veritas router plane looks to be a well made plane with modern updates to make it easier to use than the older router planes.

If it were up to me to buy one or the other new, it would likely be the router plane. Having said that, it really depends on you needs in the shop. If you are making a lot of rabbets and grooves for drawer bottoms or panel work, a plow is an essential tools. If you are making a lot of stopped dados, then a router plane may be more advantageous.

If you buy new, there isn't a worry about the plane having all of its parts along with all the other worries about price and condition.

If you are going to buy used, then you need to do your homework and know what parts are next to impossible to find if it isn't on the plane(s) you are buying.

If my condition was having more money than time, my choice would likely not have been to buy used and rehabilitate old tools. Though there is a lot of pleasure to be found in fixing up old tools.

jtk

Jessica Pierce-LaRose
01-06-2012, 3:54 PM
For me, I'd buy most specialty planes new, simply because every time I look, I find things in either terrible condition, or at a price point where the difference between new and used is small enough it seems worth it to pay the premium. Part of that is because I don't tend to purchase much from eBay, and for whatever reason, they seem to be asking a lot for the specialty planes at the places I'd get old tools locally, (lije the guy who wanted $100 for a repainted Stanley router plane with a worn down iron and brazed sole that was nowhere near coplanar anymore) and everytime Josh at Hyperkitten has something I want, I've missed it. I also haven't looked real hard though. I have a little scrap of paper in my wallet when I go rust hunting, that lists how much I can buy some tools for new, and I make the mental calculation when I see stuff.

That said, if the price is right, and the parts are there and the thing is in decent condition or I think I can make it into decent condition, sure, I'd go for it. A wooden plough, in particular, would be something I'd love to have, if I can find one with a couple of irons, or at least a single size I could use.

The only one I wouldn't buy used would be a shoulder plane - partly because they always seem to be pricey, but partly because it's one of those tools where precision is helpful, and I've seen some really out of square, and I doubt my ability to square the sole to the sides. That said, I don't have my own, and nine times out of ten when I could use one, I get the work done no problem with chisels.