Observations of Naniwa Superstones [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

Gary Viggers

01-06-2012, 4:05 AM

I just finished up a hand tools class at Cerritos College. I had a little experience sharpening, but this class really taught me the difference between "sharp" and "a-mirror-polish-that-will-shave-hairs sharp". Effective sharpening is a combination of using the right stones, proper technique, and knowing when to progress to the next stone.

I did most of my sharpening with Shapton glass stones (1K, 4K, and 8K). I went with these because I purchased a set of LN chisels with A2 blades. After flattening the backs and honing 6 LN chisels, 10 Narex chisels, a couple of O1 Hock plane irons, a few Record plane irons, and a card scraper, my 1000 grit glass stone had a lot more wear than I thought it would (almost twice as much as the 4K and 8K). I think it was due to a combination of the sheer amount of work I did, using the 1000 when a coarser stone would have been a better choice, redoing many tools as part of the learning process, and being a little too proactive in the stone flattening department (DMT duosharp 220 side). I have since bought another 1000 glass stone, mainly because the local Woodcraft gives a discount to Cerritos students, and an even bigger discount to students in the hand tools class. Very cool.

I've got some more Record plane irons, a spokeshave, and my beater Craftsman chisels to flatten and hone. I didn't want to use the Shaptons on these, so I bought some Naniwa Superstones (220, 400, 1K, 5K, and 8K). I bought the 400 to avoid overusing the 1000 (mainly to remove the grinding marks on backs). The 400 was not coarse enough, so I bought a 220. I've used the superstones quite a bit and would like to share some of my experiences/observations and get some feedback. Most of my comments refer to back flattening.

The 220 is not as coarse as I thought it would be. As I previously wrote, I bought it because I was disappointed with the performance of the 400. There were some grinding marks at the tip of my 1-1/4" Craftsman chisel that took forever to remove. Was the chisel that out-of-flat? Perhaps, but the 220 did not have the cutting action I was expecting.

The scratch pattern the 400 produced was just a little bit coarser than my Shapton 1000. The grit grading systems of the Shaptons and Naniwas are definitely different.

The 1000 grit superstone is a very odd stone. Like the 220 & 400 stones, it was finer than the Shapton [and my Norton 1000]. It took more pressure to make it work. A lighter touch would produce the matte finish typical of a 1000, but as I chased the corners and edges, the areas that I had already hit started to get a premature mirror finish. If I reduced the pressure, the shiny areas would go back to the matte finish. I tried taking all areas to the shiny finish. When I went up to the 5K, there was not a big change. If I backed off in pressure, to get a full matte finish, it took too long. If I left it matte/shiny, the 5K evened it out. As long as I hit everything with the 1000, this was the most effective way to use the 1000. Like my Shapton 1000, this stone has the most wear. I think I've read that sometimes these stones get a hump in the center from the stone coming off the base. I think that may be happening also.

The 5000 stone cut well. It liked moderate pressure and slow strokes (long across the stone and short ones). It stayed flat. It could cut a little faster, but I am fairly happy with this one.

Same with the 8000, except it liked a little less pressure and faster strokes. It produces a good mirror finish. I'm pleased with this one.

Now for the questions (if you've gotten this far):

1) Have you guys had similar experiences with the superstones? I'm especially curious about the 1000 and the premature mirror finish I was getting. Is this normal or am I the only one. Do the finer stones work best with a [slightly] heavier hand?

2) Would replacing the 1000 with a Chosera 1000 be worth it? I'm looking for a quicker cutting 1000 with a more even finish.

3) What about a faster cutting coarse stone? Chosera?

4) Are Shapton Pro stones as good for A2 as the glass stones? I still haven't opened my new 1000 and I could get a lot more stone for about the same. Once I got used to the feel of the Shaptons, I had good results with them on my A2 chisels.

I know some of you want to say "Get the Sigma Powers from Stu." I'm considering the three stone package w/the atom 400, but I first want to give Naniwa a fair shake.

Thanks for reading and any feedback would be great.

Chris Griggs

01-06-2012, 7:49 AM

When Stu did his testing, the "fly in the ointment" for the Naniwa SS was that they are slow. I don't know a lot, but a premature polish I believe is a sign that the grit is breaking down into finer and finer particles.

Yes the Chos are fast. Really really fast. I find the Sig a little nicer to use, but I believe the Cho is a bit faster. The Cho 400 is a great fast stone also, as is the Cho 600. I don't own either but I've sharpened a couple blades on the them, and they are very nice to use in addition to being quick. I have a Shapton Pro 120 which I like a lot for really mucked up backs, but I like the Cho 400 better. However, if I were buying a coare stone now I would be inclined to give the new Sig 400 a try, just because a) I like my other Sigs so much and b) Stu, whose advice to me has always been pure gold, had a hand in designing it.

Jessica Pierce-LaRose

01-06-2012, 8:08 AM

My impression with the Naniwa Superstone has been just what Chris mentioned - it feels like the grit breaks down a bit, and you start getting a more polished surface, or at least, the stone acts as if it's a bit finer than it was before. Refreshing the surface by lapping helps make the grit act like it was when you started. But this can be a little bit nice on the last stone; the only thing is the 8000 I use really feels like it loads up a bit.

I also get the feel that mine (particularly the 1000) are not quite as attached to the base as they were - perhaps I've been a little too generous wetting them.

I also wouldn't mind something a little harder, they're a little easy to gouge accidently!

Archie England

01-06-2012, 8:23 AM

Great report! What you've experienced in general (the 1k stones really struggle in various ways) equals my experience. Oh, and I'm one of those who bought the Sigma Power stones from Stu. But I also bought a Chosera 1000, too, and I love it (well, better penned as love-hate it; got it by accident when I ordered the Arashiyama 1k, which was out of stock, so replaced with a slightly used Cho 1000).

In search for the 1000 stone that doesn't struggle, I've bought and or borrowed the 1000 stones by Sigma power (not SS II), Arashiyama, Chosera, Norton, and a Bester 1200. Everyone of these stones struggle without prep work at lower stones; however, the Chosera and Sigma and Arashiyama (in that order of speed) will eventually work. The Norton and Bester are much slower in this regard. In terms of speed, the Chosera is the fastest cutting stone but with the worst glazing/loading problem. That's the "hate" part. Once I learned how to clean or break up the loading, the Cho flat out speeds all these other stones. I've bought, borrowed, or been given a Shapton Pro 120 (not a bad stone), a Sigma 120 (black beast that too much so deeply scratches blade backs but is great on bevels), King Deluxe 300 (a fantastic stone), a Chosera 400 (which I've used the longest and, despite it's beat thoroughly by the 300, I still use it for the great finish prep it renders), and a Chosera 600. (Oh, I've got DMTs, India coarse, iWood, and Atoma 400, as well, but I prefer the lower grit waterstones for prepping BLADE BACKS. The Shapton Pro 120 and Chosera 400 functionally work at the same level and speed, unless you continually refresh the 120s surface. I've found that the 300, 400, 600 progression fantastically cleans, flattens, removes scratches, and draws the initial burr for whichever 1k stone I choose. Of my options, the Chosera 1k and Sigma 1k are my go-to stones. After this pre-work, both do a fantastic, QUICK, job. Chosera is fastest on bevel work; the Sigma, on back work. The Sigma cannot be loaded up; it just works through everything!!! Slower by a quite a bit is the Arashiyama, which is a messy pig, but is a little faster than the Bester 1200, which is cleaner but makes no slurry; both are significantly faster than the Norton 1000.

Though I have and can use my DMTs or India stones or Arkansas stones or sandpaper, I get my best results from using waterstones. And since we're talking blade BACKS, there's no roll that most grinders can play here. So, what you've described about the lack of umphh in the SuperStones fits my expectations: they work quite well at the finer grits, but lack the muscle at the lower grits.

Oh, last word on these 1k stones: After sharpening about 50 blades (backs and bevels), there's significant wear on the Chosera 400 (1/8"), the Norton (~1/8"), and the Sigma (1/16"). The Chosera 1000 shows virtually no wear (not kidding) and the Arashiyama showed 2mm out of 25, which is similar to the Bester 1200, but I've not had it as long. After 20 blade backs and bevels on the King 300, it had only two quarter-sized hollows on the only surface I had used. It's tremendously dish resistant and slow wearing; much, much more so that the Chosera 400. My friends who've bought the Sigma 400 and the Gesshin 400 say that these seriously out perform the Chosera 400, as well. Once I wear out my Cho 400, I'll call Stu.

Again, thanks for the observations and report! This is what "our community" needs to make better decisions--if and when they have such a need. Waterstones are not for everyone!

David Weaver

01-06-2012, 9:35 AM

Gary - if you like the shapton 1k stone otherwise, but get frustrated with the wear rate, get a shapton pro 1k stone instead. You'll get the same no-soak use, but the stone is harder, (much) longer wearing, and three times as thick. Even without regard to a discount, the money is much better spent on the pro stone at that grit level.

Just glue it to a piece of quartersawn wood (or anything that you have that's stable) as a base and you'll be able to use all 15mm of it (if you ever do, which may be unlikely).

In terms if maintaining tools, you aren't going to find an artificial stone with a better feel than the superstones, and they cut HCS and A2 just fine when used as all honing stones should be used - either in progression or on small bits of metal (let a grinder or coarse sandpaper (whatever you use) do the bulk of your metal removal work).

I would not ditch them for other stones were I in your shoes - if you don't get good results with them and a pleasant experience in use, work on the indian and not the arrow, if you know what I mean.

If any decent stone is causing you trouble in time or use on high carbon steel or A2, it's probably better to solve the problem with the stone you have than to buy another stone and then still have to solve the problem. The superstones are good stones. They may not be grinders, but they do what they're supposed to do very well on everything but high speed steel.

Stuart Tierney

01-06-2012, 10:48 AM

I've said it before, I'm saying it now and I know I'll end up saying it again.

Naniwa Superstones grind slow, but exceedingly fine.

That's it. That's all there really is to it.

They're not 'bad' stones at all. They're not perfect, they're not fast, but one thing they will deliver is beautiful polish and they will also give an excellent edge. So long as you take note of what Dave said "progression or on small bits of metal" you might actually get those edges in a rapid manner.

And yes, I do like them for what they are. Nicely priced, honest, reliable and for the most part, predictable and easy to use sharpening stones.

I do have the #220, #1000, #5000 and #10000. I'll not be getting rid of them any time soon, but they also won't be the last stones I get rid of if that kind of thing comes to pass. If I had to lose them, it would be in the order of #220, #1000, #10000 and finally the #5000.

The #220 is just too gutless. No other way to put it. If I'm dropping down to this grit level, I don't give a north bound rodent's south pointing end what the steel looks like, I just want it (the offending steel!) to be gone. Cleanly is better, polished means my sweat has been wasted.

The #1000 polishes nice, see the #220.

The #10000 does work ok, but it has it's own little quirks and while I can get good results from it, I'm starting to wonder why I keep needing to jump through so many hoops to coax a finishing stone to work properly, every time and for every situation. There are too many "wet it, use it, done!" finishing stones readily available that I just can't be bothered fooling with one that doesn't just work. Razor guys like them though, and kitchen knife folks seem to think they're ok. I admit, it gives a very good edge. I'm just done with 'conditional' stones, those that need more tweaking to work, every time in every situation than my nearly 6 year old son can manage. You might have different needs however, and it might be a dream stone for you. Topping off a 1-4-8K GS line up, I reckon it'll work pretty nicely.

The #5000 I have has as much work as any other stone I have, and it's still quite usable, albeit thin. I'm very familiar with it, and it's a very good reference stone, because it doesn't work fast. It's edge is good enough for most woodworking tasks I think, and there's no better edge* to be had off a 5K stone from anywhere else.

(*'Edge' as in sharp and smooth. A good edge doesn't always need to be both, sharp and/or smooth, and sometimes it can be neither and be great. But that idea is for another time and place.)

I'm going to stop right here because I'm tired, I've been rather unwell for the best part of a week and I've still got some catching up to do.

Just quickly though.

Shapton Pro are just as 'fast' as the GS, perhaps faster, there's more stone to be had and they're actually nicer to use. Stay flatter for the most part too, especially the #1000.

Chosera are just as fast, if not faster than the GS. Much more stone to be had and they're much nicer to use. At the very low grit levels, Not as fast as Shapton. Get faster as you go up the grits, 5k Cho > Shapton 5-6K in nearly every way. Good finish, good edge.

Sigma? Things is dragging out, and I'm still not 100% and I have 1 more email before getting to bed.

Stu.

George Beck

01-06-2012, 10:50 AM

My general sharpening has evolved into using the shapton pro (1000,5000,15,000). However the naniwa Chosera 400 has become my "go to" stone. It cuts fast but does not leave such heavy scratches that more work on the 1000 grit stone is required. I have also recently developed a fondness for the Chosera 1000 ( I call it the Hulk) it cuts fast and leaves a nice finish for the finer stones. The Shaptons are the hardest of these stones and do provide a keener edge. I found no difference on A2 or high carbon. I do not care for the glass stones as they wear too fast. The naniwa superstores are just too soft and too slow. Another great stone is the Naniwa Aotoshi 2K green brick( it is also cheap). This cuts as fast as the 1000 but leaves a nice finish. I use it to touch up a blade that just needs some honing and then on to 5000, 15,000. If I have a really nicked up blade or if I am changing the camber, I use Sigma 120-Chosera 400- Chosera 1000 then to the Shapton 3 stone line up. This saves the enormous wear on the 1000 which I think most experience. I hold the belief that the longer one works on a stone, bad things happen (you are more likely to rock the blade, the stone hollows etc.). Oh, one more thing, the DMT new flattening plate or a good Atoma plate, makes this whole process better. Anyway, this has been my experience.

Paul Saffold

01-06-2012, 12:10 PM

FWIW, Fine Woodworking has a comparison of water stones in the last issue.

Gary Viggers

01-07-2012, 1:20 AM

FWIW, Fine Woodworking has a comparison of water stones in the last issue.

Yes, I read that. There was some good information there, but I thought it fell short in the details.

Thanks for the feedback. I've got a few options as far as the coarse to 1000 stones go.

Looking at the Sigma package...great price, but $55 just to ship them? Add a Sigma 400 to the mix and shipping >$60. Yikes.

How do Chosera 5Ks perform? Will I be able to achieve a mirror polish like with my Shapton GS 8K or my Naniwa SS 8K? The 10K Chosera seems like an awesome stone, but it is out of my budget. I've grown accustomed to a mirror back and do not want to settle for anything less than that.

David Weaver

01-07-2012, 8:41 AM

You might be able to talk to stu and find out of there is economy shipping.

Shipping from japan is an oddball thing - if you can get SAL economy under 2 kilos, you can get a pretty decent rate. Each pair of those stones is going to be more than 2 kilos.

After the sub 2-kilo rate the cost to ship things some way other than a method that takes weeks costs a lot of money.

I can only vouch for the SP II 3k, which I use like an aoto (that's esoteric to anyone who doesn't use an aoto, and not worth worrying about what it means) and the 13k. I'm sure that package is a good one, the whole thing, as I'm well pleased with both the SP II and the 13k SP stone. BUT, you're not going to find any 8k stone that polishes like the superstone, and most 5k stones won't at all, and you'll need to do some healthy stropping to get an edge like the 8k stone makes.

For anyone on a shoestring budget, I'd probably go with a pair of:
shapton pro 1000
kitayama 8k

Both from chef knives to go, as shipping will be free and the Japan Woodworker is totally out of the water asking $95 for a stone that most other folks ask $70-$75 for.

But you're not in that situation. You're in the situation where you already have a set of good stones, and buying more isn't going to really improve your woodworking. The only thing that you have that I think is a bad deal (money wise, though performance is fine) is the extra 1k glasstone. If you're going to make any move, I'd return it, and get a shapton pro 1k instead.

Beyond that, what you will need to think about is technique, as you should never really be working that much on a 1k stone for any good 1k stone to be too slow. That's the work of a grinder or a belt grinder or a large sandpaper lap or some such thing if you're using western tools. If you're using entirely japanese, you may want a coarser stone for grinding out nicks, but you should get to the point that you don't have them and that you don't really ever need anything sub 1k.

I hear you on the grinding backs thing, but if lots of work needs to be done at that, then no stone is as good of an idea as norton 3x on one of those cheap granite 9x12 plates that woodcraft has. It'll be rare that you have a tool that isn't damaged severely that flattening the back would go through more than a full sheet of sandpaper at 100 grit. It's just critical that it is adhered down tight with adhesive to prevent dubbing edges, but that is the way to go short of more drasting stuff where you're actually repairing damaged tools.

If you do feel like just buying stones, though, the SP set is, I'm sure, a great set. Just don't throw away your 1k stones that don't need soaking if you don't like to soak stones (nothing to worry about if you have a workshop that permits a permasoak of the stones).

Archie England

01-07-2012, 9:15 AM

How does the Kitayama 8k compare to the Naniwa Snow White stone?

David Weaver

01-07-2012, 9:20 AM

Not sure, I haven't used the Snow White stone.

I can only compare it to the Shapton 15k/Chosera10k/SP 13k type stones, and it's not quite as fine as those with a fresh surface.

it is a bit finer than a king 8k.

I'd say that it is entirely inferior to the Shapton 15k/Chosera10k/SP 13k stones, too. If you didn't have any of those, the kitayama is a very good low priced stone, nice and thick and on a stand. But if you have any of those, it'll stay in your drawer a lot. I believe its qualities (some complexity to the edge due to variable abrasive size, etc) are more appreciated by people who sharpen knives.

There is another budget stone out there that I have the itch to try, but I just don't need it...that being the $75 10,000 grit resin stone (similar manufaturing technique to shapton) that Takeshi Kuroda (JP metalmaster) sells.

(of course, I have no financial affiliation to anyone...just healthy curiosity)

Archie England

01-07-2012, 9:22 AM

How do Chosera 5Ks perform? Will I be able to achieve a mirror polish like with my Shapton GS 8K or my Naniwa SS 8K?

I've grown accustomed to a mirror back and do not want to settle for anything less than that.

I have the Chosera 3000 but not the 5k, and the 3k does a super job of cutting, honing and polishing. It's the perfect stone for prepping to a 5k or 6k to work faster, better, and at the top of its performance ability (IMO).

I use the Sigma power 6000. It's harder than the Chosera 1k and 3k--much so! And it sharpens and hones and creates a fantastic mirror polish--amazingly so! I go straight to the Sigma 13k, which fabulously completes that edge and polish at the 0.5 micron level. Perhaps Orlando will address the added benefits for polish of his Sigma 8k. Another friend bought it, too, and loves the significant improvement in polish.

David Weaver

01-07-2012, 9:25 AM

So...archie...who is going to be the first person to try one of these new big thick coarse and hard Nubatama Bamboo stones? :)

Archie England

01-07-2012, 9:30 AM

(of course, I have no financial affiliation to anyone...just healthy curiosity)

Me, too, David!

I appreciate you're consistent feedback!!!

There's just way too much personal subjectivity in "liking" stones or diamond or sandpaper for any of us to pontificate about "best." I enjoyed some success with scary sharp, but too often rolled the edge b/c the paper moved. Or, scraping off paper left little marks or bumps that messed up the following sheet, etc. Grinders are fast, but I've blued some and way over ground too many tools. Somehow, easy does it hasn't become part of my motor skill set. Tormek is fabulous--but expensive; as are bigger Arkansas stones and Japanese waterstones and knife making belt machines. Gosh, for a few thousand dollars, you too can sharpen tools :rolleyes:.

So, thanks for sharing your insights with us other curious types!!!!

Archie England

01-07-2012, 9:31 AM

I dunno...I'm fighting the urge to try one at the 8/10k range. I've been scouring the knife boards trying to find some recent reviews. What have you heard?

David Weaver

01-07-2012, 10:20 AM

Nothing yet. I just saw them listed and saw the comment that they're ultra hard, wear resistant, but still porous and huge (50mm thick) and fast.

I'm more interested in the 120 grit kinds of stones, but I'll admit I don't really have anything that I'd sharpen on that, except for the very occasional japanese iron or chisel that I drop on the floor or accidentally bang into something.

Almost always have a 4 foot long plane lap with 80 grit AO paper on it - a stone of that grit is not as convenient to use, nor is it as flat. That type of stone probably matters more for a knife sharpener who has a slightly damaged knife.

Do you have the snow white stone? EDIT: I just looked it up, it's a magnesia bond stone. Maybe it feels nice like the rest of naniwa's stones, but it's still probably ambiguous given what you already have.

Have you tried fujibato's 6k cheapie that he sells on ebay? It's also magnesia bond, and I think stu is either carrying it or will be carrying it.

It's also ambiguous given the SP 6k, I'm sure, even if there are minor differences between the two, but for $39 shipped, it's almost a dirty secret given how well it works and how good the feel is. great extra (splash and go only) stone to throw in the kitchen or whatever if there's no reason to have it in the shop.

Archie England

01-07-2012, 10:53 AM

Concerning the Naniwa Snow White....

No, I don't have one.

However, reviewers at CK2G state that it's quite hard (which differs from what others say about the Kitayama) and nearly as good to use and gets nearly the same results as the Chosera 10k, for 1/3 the price. The Snow White is more about honing than cutting (which the Cho 10K, like the Sigma 6 and 10, are all about cutting and honing). According to my friends that regularly use the Sigma 8k, its a bit softer than the Sigma 6, 10, and 13 stones, and the 8k definitely does more polishing. But if the endgame is sharpness, I'm not sure of the ultimate value of polishing shine if the edge is sharp to a lesser degree.

Archie England

01-07-2012, 10:58 AM

David Weaver

01-07-2012, 11:00 AM

But if the endgame is sharpness, I'm not sure of the ultimate value of polishing shine....

if you're going to blast the edge through wood, then none.

Super polish matters for shaving and for knife presentation.

I would imagine despite the 8k snow white being hard, if it's dressed, it will probably cut fast. Slowing down and polishing is a byproduct of the binder being hard and not dressing the surface of the stone regularly. It sounds a lot different than I had expected, and if it's hard, it'll stay flat, and if it's dressed, cut fast. It would probably be a good woodworking stone.

But if you don't need it, $100 is $100, and maybe there's something a little more stimulating out there for $100 (like an old signed kanna with a ledge dai, etc).

David Weaver

01-07-2012, 11:02 AM

One more info byte....

Supposedly the grits on the Nubatama Bamboo Stones (http://www.chefknivestogo.com/nubast.html) differ significantly--in function. Reviewers are drawing final edge burrs well before 1000 (about 400 if memory is correct). And, the only people speaking so far are the knife crowd. So, in other words, their entrance is similar to the Gesshins--lot of videos and a few testimonials of people raving about the latest gizmo. Liking hard stones, however, I am intrigued....

The gesshins look a bit soft in the videos, are they that? Soft is OK, but a soft stone cuts fast and generally will lack versatility. That's OK for a finish stone that's ultra fine, though. Knife guys using those stones in a progression don't mind if the interim stone is soft, but it's problematic with woodworking tools unless you intentionally want it.

Archie England

01-07-2012, 11:25 AM

The gesshins look a bit soft in the videos, are they that? Soft is OK, but a soft stone cuts fast and generally will lack versatility. That's OK for a finish stone that's ultra fine, though. Knife guys using those stones in a progression don't mind if the interim stone is soft, but it's problematic with woodworking tools unless you intentionally want it.

A friend bought the 4k and 8k Gesshins and loaned them to me (actually gave me the 4k later) to try out. The 4k is an awesome stone, producing a superior sharp edge that nearly equals the endgrain cutting ability of my Sigma power 6k--nearly--the Sig6k is better. The Gesshin is hard, similar to the Sigma 1k hard stone. The Bester 1200, Sigma 1k hard, and Gesshin 4k all have a velvety grab. Whereas the Sigma soon transforms to a silky slide where I can push or pull a bevel easily, the Bester and Gesshin maintain their velvet grab; so, it's just a little softer stone. Amazingly, it produces no slurry--only swarf. You can gouge it; but it's very dish resistant and hasn't shown any wear signs of using up quickly. I've done about 20 knives on it and the Bester 1200--for knives, that's a fantastic combo. For blade bevels, it's excellent. For blade backs, I'd rather have the Sigma 1k (hands down the fastest of my stones on the backs) or the Chosera 1k for bevels (hands down the fastest bevel cutting stone but it must be pampered due to glazing and loading. Between the Sigma and the Chosera, the Chosera is harder and faster until it loads up--have I mentioned that it loads up and has to be pampered!!! As the original owner said, the Gesshin 4k is no fun to use; but, I do affirm that it's an excellent stone at that difficult 3-4k range. And, it does a great job of prepping for the Sigma 6000.

The Gesshin 8000 is just like the 4000 in terms of firm but not as hard as the Chosera 3000 or the Sigmas 6000 or 13000. And, it took me about four blades to get the Gesshin 8000 to out perform the Sigma 6000. My point of comparison was a nasty piece of SYP endgrain. Going from the Sigma 6k to the 8k showed no benefit from the 8k stone. I saw no better polish nor sharpness. I used the Cho 3k versus the Gesshin 4, to prep different blades (all O1, two vintage; two new Veritas). Only once did the Gesshin 8k show better polish and cutting improvement over my 6k stone. Again, the Gesshin 8k is devoid of slurry; is dish resistant, showed no signs of quick wear, and continued the grabbiness of its little brother. Firm, but not as hard as the Chosera. Now that I have both the Chosera 3k and the Gesshin 4k, my definite preference is the Chosera (which, btw, is cheaper--NEVER FIGURED TO SAY THAT ABOUT A CHOSERA). There's little noticeable difference in sharpness, polish, or endgrain cutting performance--and the Chosera (though still plagued by loading) makes enough slurry to really be a fun stone to use. I'm having limited success in repairing minor edge failure with the Cho 3k and the Gesshin 4k since buggered edges will groove either stone. But, hey, that's what I've got my low grit stones for!

David Weaver

01-07-2012, 11:37 AM

I like the chosera 3k stone, the one I have is hard as a bullet compared to a lot of other stones I've seen in that range.

You never know who a company is aiming at with different stones, but I generally figure that if they have a stone that's soft, they think someone will be using it as a final step.

I haven't had any loading issues with the chosera 3k yet, but having used shaptons for eons, I probably already have adjusted how I work to avoid loading. Shorter strokes, lighter longer strokes to remove the load with a little additional water. It illustrates the importance of familiarity with a given stone. Barring a HUGE difference in quality, the incumbent always looks best for the first few days.

Gary Viggers

01-07-2012, 12:09 PM

David Weaver

01-07-2012, 12:33 PM

i like the cho 400. I splash it and go. If it needs another splash, I splash it again. If it gets loaded, I dress the surface quickly.

I think for the 1000 stone, the cho is not my first choice (unless it turns out it works OK splash and go) because it apparently works a lot better if it's soaked, but doesn't tolerate continuous soaking (i.e., you always need to remember to put it in the water when you get in the shop, and then get it out before it's in it for too long). I'd prefer the shapton 1k pro as a no-soak stone, and probably if I wanted a soak stone that reportedly doesn't mind being left in water, something like the sigma 1k.

My shop can be mid 40s in temp in the winter, though, down to 40, so I don't use soak stones regularly - i hate repeatedly reaching into a bin of 45 degree water.

The knife guys I've seen talking about the cho 10k (which they love) have been a little bit less impressed by the 5k. I'm sure it's a good stone, but it doesn't garner the same wow factor talk.

Stuart Tierney

01-07-2012, 1:45 PM

Just quickly, it's past my bedtime.

The Naniwa 8K white is nice. Cho 10K with the rhetoric wound down to an 8. ;)

(I've had one for about 3 months, finally cracked it open tonight for a quick fang.)

The shipping issue, there's not much that can be done. Of the listed cost, I take a 5% hit in my own pocket because I refuse to charge more than it says on the 'stamp', but the folks who process the money still want their cut out of that money. If I could get it cheaper, I would. It's also why as much as I'd like to offer free shipping at some point in time, I can't. Some things I wouldn't make enough off them to cover the shipping.

(Every time I've checked to get some Norton stones shipped here for testing, that's a real shocker.)

Also know that the whole 'set' weighs over 8lbs, packed ready to go in three boxes, all in a particular order to prevent them being damaged and to meet that cheaper shipping cost.

It actually upsets me a little when folks tell me the shipping is too expensive. I go to extra-ordinary lengths to minimise it as much as possible. I carefully price things so that even after shipping, the price is at least competitive with pricing elsewhere in the world.

Some of the things I sell, if you all knew how much I actually make after it's all said and done, you'd call me insane. I know it's stupid, but I'd rather charge an honest price than even draw a hint of price gouging even if it's only known to me.

Can't do much about it yet. Scared when I can do something about it, because I'd also feel indebted to everyone else who's paid a higher price.

I do what I can, I can't afford to be too worried about things I can't do anything more about.

The Chosera 5K is a great stone, but I've never gotten a polish off it. It's an 'eraser' as in erases steel in preparation for the next stone. The 5K SS polishes fantastically, but you need to give it a good starting point. The Sigma 6K polishes well, but will also drag up a 'not quite good enough' edge too because it's so dish resistant. In the 5-6K range, Cho 5K to work an edge for futher, Sig 6K to finish most of the time, or to do the same as the Chosera a little slower. Nothing else, unless I need to find something out.

Chosera 400, Got one of them too. Great stone, retired mine 3 stones ago. Only problem is the King #300 can take it to school (and is more adjustable), The King #400L is even better and the Sigma #400 can take the Kings outside and beat them senseless. The GS #500 is the only stone I've used that is actually faster (maybe 5-10%, maybe) than the Sig #400, but the GS dishes more, clogs faster and there's only 5mm of it vs. 25mm of Sigma (and they're the same price, all said and done). Of these 4 stones, only the Chosera is a soaker, the King, Sigma and GS are no soak.

(Don't ask how the Sigma was engineered. I did, no dice, but there's some funny things going on in that stone. I know they're using a non-standard abrasive at the very least.)

The only #400 stone I want to try but have not is the Gesshin, but I think it's working in a different way for a different end result.

I've also been made aware of the Nubatama stuff, and what I've seen so far, I'm not that impressed. There's a back story there as well, and leaving that out, I'm still not that impressed.

(No, they've not done anything against me. Yet.)

Stu.

Gary Viggers

01-07-2012, 2:13 PM

It actually upsets me a little when folks tell me the shipping is too expensive. I go to extra-ordinary lengths to minimise it as much as possible. I carefully price things so that even after shipping, the price is at least competitive with pricing elsewhere in the world.

Some of the things I sell, if you all knew how much I actually make after it's all said and done, you'd call me insane. I know it's stupid, but I'd rather charge an honest price than even draw a hint of price gouging even if it's only known to me.

Can't do much about it yet. Scared when I can do something about it, because I'd also feel indebted to everyone else who's paid a higher price.

I do what I can, I can't afford to be too worried about things I can't do anything more about.

Yeah, that's why I wrote the price is great. I understand that the shipping is out of your hands; I'd rather see the extra $$ go into your pocket than the mailman.

Jack Curtis

01-07-2012, 2:19 PM

...The shipping issue, there's not much that can be done....

I think there are a couple of ways this can be addressed:

1) the seller is/was in the US military, and s/he ships with cheapo rates, subsidized by the US

2) the seller sells enough to justify container shipping, or joins up with others to make up that container, but then there are time and agent-on-this-end costs

3) it can be a minor improvement for the seller to arrange shipping through a third party

4) the buyer can be patient and understanding

To this day I don't understand how the Tomonori's (330-mate) of Japan can include shipping and undercut prices, not precisely. I always receive their stuff within two weeks via EML. They run a mine, I think, and are very well connected with a few blacksmiths; but still, unless they're container shipping or getting volume discounts from EML...

I have the same problems with costs when purchasing from the UK, so I confine my purchases to things I can't get here, like tiny boxwood spokeshaves that weigh nothing. I don't even look at ebay items from Australia any more, given they seem to charge $25+ for shipping a chisel.

So, it's not a big deal for me to wait a couple of weeks or months, but I'm sort of accustomed to this, even though I hate it as much as anyone. After all, you're essentially paying for an additional stone; but I think it worth it to get the item quality and tech support that Stu provides.

Jason Coen

01-07-2012, 2:46 PM

So, thanks for sharing your insights with us other curious types!!!!

Absolutely!

David, Archie, Stu, Orlando, and Joel (and I know I'm leaving someone out) - y'all have been a fantastic resource. Many, many thanks!

The 10K Chosera seems like an awesome stone

Oh my, is it ever. That was a Christmas present (to myself!) that I picked up from Joel. Maybe one of my favorite woodworking purchases of all time. I like the finish marginally better than what I previously was seeing off a 16k GS, but (and more importantly to me), the stone is actually a joy to use. I don't have the talent to put the experience into words, but every time I sharpen/hone and finally get to the Cho 10k it feels like I've won some reward. It's one of those tools that makes me smile every single time I get to use it.

I've been so impressed with it that I'm thinking of adding either a Cho 5k or a Sigma Ceramic 6k and ditching the 4k and 8k Shapton GS's. The 1k GS is within a few sharpenings of becoming a Shapton 1k Glassplate, and so I'll be adding a new 1k stone pretty soon, also. I just hope the next couple of stones make me as happy as the Cho 10k has. I'm hopeful such is the case.

Archie England

01-07-2012, 2:46 PM

If I don't get the Sigmas, I think I will get a Cho 400 and a Cho 1000 and keep using my SS 5000 and SS 8000. What do you think about that? If I'm not going to get a great polish with the Cho 5000 there is no reason for me to get a Cho 400, 1000, 3000, 5000 setup. If someone has a good reason why this would be better, please share.

Like David and Stu, I like the Cho 400, have it, and use it nearly every session. However, the King Deluxe 300 beats it in every category! Because I own both, I use both. PM me if you want to buy one used. But, if you haven't bought yet, I'd highly recommend the Sigma 400 from Stu or the Gesshin 400 from JKI. The Sigma 400 is a little harder but not as fast cutting as the Gesshin, which thus dishes and/or wears down a bit faster; both have better muscle to attack serious blade back issues and to get it done faster. CK2G will include shipping on the Cho 400; JKI will not on the Gesshin, which is already $7 higher. Stu's 400, shipped should be less than the Gesshin but a little higher than the Cho 400.

I use both the Cho 400 and 600 prior to whatever 1000 stone I choose. The Cho 600 does a superior job of prepping a blade bevel and BACK for a 1000 stone. My Cho 600 quickly draws a significant burr! Once that happens, I'm onto the 1000 stone, which works very efficiently. Case in point, I wanted to touch up a blade that had some edge failure and having my Sigma Power 1000 hard perma-soaking, I grabbed it and put the blade on it, knowing the getting out the 600 would have made things go faster. Boy, was that a drag; the 1k stone took forever (it felt like) to finish up the repairs. I treat my waterstones like a manual transmission, shifting down whenever I feel the muscle of a stone struggle with the current task. Extra stones, is the cost; faster sharpening (less time) is the reward.

Archie England

01-07-2012, 2:59 PM

Oh my, is it [Chosera 10000] ever. That was a Christmas present (to myself!) that I picked up from Joel. Maybe one of my favorite woodworking purchases of all time. I like the finish marginally better than what I previously was seeing off a 16k GS, but (and more importantly to me), the stone is actually a joy to use. I don't have the talent to put the experience into words, but every time I sharpen/hone and finally get to the Cho 10k it feels like I've won some reward. It's one of those tools that makes me smile every single time I get to use it.

I've been so impressed with it that I'm thinking of adding either a Cho 5k or a Sigma Ceramic 6k and ditching the 4k and 8k Shapton GS's. The 1k GS is within a few sharpenings of becoming a Shapton 1k Glassplate, and so I'll be adding a new 1k stone pretty soon, also. I just hope the next couple of stones make me as happy as the Cho 10k has. I'm hopeful such is the case.

I really do but really don't want to hear that!!!! LALALALALALA.....

Congratulations on a what appears to be a fantastic, fun stone to use! I applaud your bravery to acquire such a "treasure." May I recommend the Chosera 3k as the step prior to the Sigma 6k prior to the Cho 10k. I struggle with the desire to add more Choseras--because they have the feel and slurry that I like!! It's totally a personal bias issue. But I've not used a stone that beats the Sigma 6k--in sharpness and polish as a total package, when parring endgrain is the test. I've managed to nearly equal the Sigma 6k with the lowly Suehiro Rika 5k, which is most enjoyable stone slurry I've ever used. But the Sigma is so much faster and doesn't struggle like the SR5k does. I can go directly from a 1k to the 6k and with time get great results. Adding the 3k, the 6k gets fabulous results way!!!!!!!!!!!!! faster!!!!!! So, I highly recommend the Sigma 6k as the best prep prior to your Cho 10k.

Hearing your testimony about the "fun" experience is exactly what I needed to hear.

Thanks for that report! Now go enjoy some more fun. For me, waterstones make me all the more likely to sharpen my tools--long before they get really dull. Boy, is this not a 180 for me.

Have fun.
Archie