What do you sell the most of? Your Woodworking

[Rick Cicciarelli]

Trying to get into the hobby a little bit more and would like to try to make a few bucks on the side if possible. I am just wondering what the general trend is in terms of successful selling. I see other woodworkers selling items locally in shops, but I am curious what actually sells. You see lots of bowls, bottle stoppers, jewelry boxes, rolling pins, honey dippers etc, but I am just curious what folks have the most success actually selling. Just curious.

[Matt Meiser]

I don't, but you might want to review with your insurance agent before deciding to go down that route. There have been numerous posts here in the past about the dramatic difference between a hobby shop and one that does anything for sale.

[Rick Cicciarelli]

What do you mean?

[Jim Rimmer]

There have been many posts about the insurance issue. Apparently making things for sale makes your shop a commercial shop and insurance requirements (read RATES) change significantly.

[Rick Cicciarelli]

There must be a way to move into the process slowly rather than diving right in and calling yourself a business. Does someone who does beading or glass blowing at their kitchen table have to call their house a commercial shop?

[Myk Rian]

I don't normally sell what I make, but have sold a few lighthouses, and mailbox posts.

[Kirk Poore]

Pick your target audience first. I make repro medieval furniture and camp gear, but I have a very narrow market. Figure out who you're trying to sell to, then determine what they like & will buy.

Kirk

[Don Jarvie]

Let friends, co-workers, relatives know you do woodworking and see if anyone needs something. I've made a few cabinets and radiator covers for a co-worker.

I am going to make some cutting boards for the holiday season this year and see if I can sell a few at the Church fair. Not expecting to make anything but I would like to give it a shot.

[Andrew Joiner]

There must be a way to move into the process slowly rather than diving right in and calling yourself a business. Does someone who does beading or glass blowing at their kitchen table have to call their house a commercial shop?

Unfortunately if you sell one item it can change your liability exposure from personal to business. This is the way our countries laws are.

Here's an example. If you give a wood toy to a friend and that toy ever harms someone your homeowners/rental insurance should cover it. You have less liability if you gave the toy away.

Worsted case scenario:
You sell a wood item to a friend. His kid or any kid chokes on a part from it, even after the item is 20 years old, even if the kids abused the item, you are liable.
You say " my friends wouldn't sue me". What happens after the kid is hospitalized is insurance reports get filed. An investigation finds the product was purchased from you. You are then a manufacturer of toys and the lawyers will try to prove you are at fault and must pay the damages. Even if you win the lawsuit your court costs could be astronomical . If you lose a case they can take your house and all your cash/assets. If you have no money they can take a portion of your future income for life! I have a friend who had this happen to her.

Bottom line selling one item exposes you. Insurance to cover a hobby woodworking business's product liability can be added to you homeowners insurance in some states for about $500 a year, if your gross is less than 15K a year. A full on business policy can be 4 times that. Look for art and craft insurance. Shop around. The good news is even if sell your stuff for a year with the product liability and you quit selling, the product liability protects you forever ( as long as the insurance co is still in business).

I'm not an insurance guy or a lawyer. I've had commercial woodshop insurance in the past with product liability. It went from about $200 a year in 1975 to over $4000 a year when I got out of the business.

[Rob Holcomb]

I've made and sold a Toy Chest, several cutting boards and a few bottle stoppers. I don't advertise really. More word of mouth and I only sell some things to cover the cost of the rough cut lumber I buy.

[Brian Kent]

I have no input on the insurance / business side of things. My answer has to do with what has sold the best at church fund-raising auctions:

1. The library chair that converts to a step ladder: $350 to $400.
http://www.amazon.com/Library-Stool-Chair-Woodworking-Project-Paper/dp/tags-on-product/B003P2BTGO

2. Jewelry Boxes: $35 to $175

3. Cutting Boards: $20 to $30

These are silent auctions where the items are displayed and the people have 30 days to bid on a piece of paper nearby.

[Jon McElwain]

I do not sell anything, so I cannot help you there, but I did want to chime in on the insurance topic. I had severe water damage in my shop a while back (oil fired hot water heat line burst in my shop). Water sprayed over the ENTIRE shop for three days while we were on vacation. Insurance repeatedly asked if I ever sold anything to friends, craft fairs, or for any sort of business. Thankfully the answer was no. They replaced everything that was damaged. If I had made any money through the use of my shop, they would have been able to deny the claim.

[Larry Edgerton]

I carry a $4m liability policy and have for over twenty years. Mine has gone down every year as I have never had a claim. I now pay about a thousand a year. I would not consider doing business without it, even on a small scale. I have too much to lose, and there are many lawyers out there just looking to ruin someones life.

One thing I made when out of work that may be out of the norm but sold will through a friend that does the circuit was toilet paper holders that stood on the floor. They were very nice pieces and sold in the $150-200 range.

Good luck, and get insurance. It sucks, but it is reality. Everyone in this world is not a nice guy/girl.

Larry

[Larry Whitlow]

I do not sell anything, so I cannot help you there, but I did want to chime in on the insurance topic. I had severe water damage in my shop a while back (oil fired hot water heat line burst in my shop). Water sprayed over the ENTIRE shop for three days while we were on vacation. Insurance repeatedly asked if I ever sold anything to friends, craft fairs, or for any sort of business. Thankfully the answer was no. They replaced everything that was damaged. If I had made any money through the use of my shop, they would have been able to deny the claim.


With certain exceptions, the standard homeowners policy excludes businesses pursuits run out of the home. The main exception being office type activities (telecommuting). In my state (California), I would have to put a "prop 65" warning on anything that I sold out of the shop. Personally, I would like to sell products I make in the shop and do some kitchen rehabs, but there are too many exposures to deal with and I don't want the expense of completed operations or products liability coverage.

[jerry cousins]

years ago i moved from the hobby style woodworking to a business due to insurance reasons. i have a stand alone shop building - do make pieces on commission and have pieces in galleries - and this is california stuff but - i found out that if i was selling pieces i was considered a business & my homeowner's insurance would not cover the cost of the tools if they needed replacement - i had to get a separate business policy. the policy really is just an additional rider on the homeowners - but shop & tools are now part of the mix. another key element was that my shop is not a gallery and there is no customer foot traffic. it was a hard search to find an insurance company that offered this kind of arrangement.
jerry

[Richard Wolf]

I know that I'm going to not look real smart after this.

First thing to remember, your insurance agent is NOT your friend, he/she is not there to protect you and cover your losses. They are there for 2 things and two things only, collect premiums, and deny any claim that they possibly can. I know there are people who are going to say no, not their agent, and they may have one of the very very rare ones that may be out there. Look at Jon's post above, "insurance repeatedly asked him". Why, once is not enough, of course not, because they where hoping he would slip once and say he sold a wood thing to his mother's friend for $4.00 so they could deny his claim.
People on this forum that know me, know that I am extremely moral, ethical and honest, and that is the way I run my business and my life, but you need to be on a level playing ground with lawyers and insurance companies, so arm yourself when dealing with them. My opinion is, your insurance agent is the last person to ask if you need more insurance, what do you think he is going to say?

Second, there are plenty of people that build and make things to sell at craft fairs and shops without liability insurance, I know plenty of them, my wife is a crafter and all of her friends are also. Is it risky, well I don't know, walking out side in a thunder storm is risky, but we all do it. You have to ask your self about risk and reward. The risk is probably very small and the rewards can be very high if it means supplementing your income. If it was me, I would give it a try, sell some things and see where it goes. If it's works for you, look into the insurance thing if it makes you sleep better. Do I have insurance, of course, I run a full time stair business and it becomes part of doing business. And while liability insurance is not cheap, it can be attainable.

Third, what to build. After spending many years in the craft fair enviorment helping my wife, things that sell are things that can be sold cheaply. Small boxes, signs, lawn decorations, cutting boards, etc. It's not for me, not the kind of stuff I want to build, but you can make money. I am also not a big fan of craft fairs, long hours, cheap people that want if for nothing and husbands that tell their wives they can build it for less money, but you can make some fast money.

Remember, every thing I have said is only my arrogant opinion of things, the truth may vary.

I hope this doesn't reflect on how I really feel about insurance companies.

[Don Jarvie]

Good points from Richard. See if you can sell a few things before your get insurance. I would image that stopping the liability insurance will be harder since you will have to prove you atopped selling items if you ever have to put in a claim.

[Dave Cav]

Third, what to build. After spending many years in the craft fair enviorment helping my wife, things that sell are things that can be sold cheaply. Small boxes, signs, lawn decorations, cutting boards, etc. It's not for me, not the kind of stuff I want to build, but you can make money. I am also not a big fan of craft fairs, long hours, cheap people that want if for nothing and husbands that tell their wives they can build it for less money, but you can make some fast money.



This was exactly the experience my parents had. After my dad retired as a teacher (including a shop teacher) my parents made and sold a lot of "craft" stuff. This was the late 80s and 90s. Boxes, shelves, dog and cat cut outs, and so on. They were moderately successful; my dad made the stuff and my mom painted them. After a while the whole "craft fair" thing got to be a huge pain and they started working wholesale only. My dad worked with a couple of retailers and shops that sold that sort of thing, and would make a run of five or ten shelves or a couple of dozen cup holders and then would drop them off at the store. If they sold, fine, and he would make some more. If they didn't sell, he would pick them up and try to give them away and find something else that would sell.

I don't know what they did in terms of insurance; I don't ever remember them discussing it, but it's sure something to think about.

[Peter J Lee]

One thing I made when out of work that may be out of the norm but sold will through a friend that does the circuit was toilet paper holders that stood on the floor. They were very nice pieces and sold in the $150-200 range.


Do you have a picture of one? You've piqued my curiosity.

(sorry for the tangent)

[Alan Wright]

Richard, This is and always has been a polite forum, so I'll try and keep it professional, even though I'm frankly a little pissed... I am a hobbyist wood worker and love this forum. I read it every day. My day job is as an insurance agent. I specialize in commerical insurance. I've been in business for 26 years, and have worked with hundreds of insurance professionals.

As an agent, I sell insurance to make a living, so I guess I actaully do care about selling. I have however, never sold someone insurance they did not need.

Newsflash.... the vast majority of insurance professionals really want to do what is right for their clients. When a loss happens, we generally feel bad, and want to help. One of the best feelings we get is getting to really help someone get back on their feet after they've suffered a loss.

The reallity is that money is tight for most people and they are looking to cut back. Even when times are good, most people don't want to spend money on insurance. Many of my clients (not all) look to cut corners on insurance. They want to insure their $200,000 building for $150,000, or they work like crazy to hide receipts or payroll so it does't show up on their insurance bill. People who think of themselves as honest as the day is long, think nothing of getting their auto repair shop to inflate a bill to cover a deductible. After all it's just an insurance company and we all know they are out to screw everbody anyway.

Richard, if you had a bad experience with an insurance company they I'm sorry, but I can assure you, paying claims is what we do and it isn't our mission to screw our customers.

[Pat Barry]

Until I read thru the responses to this posting I would never have considered the need for insurance to cover any hobby work I did that might make a few bucks at a craft sale if I were so inclined. The responses here however show that this country is overrun with lawyers and a public that is willing to sue for just about anything. That's not the way I was brought up or the way I brought up my kids, but I can see that others do things differently. They have no sense of personal accountability and want to blame someone else for whatever happens to them and then sue them for everything they can. Certainly a sad state of affairs. Our country would never had made the progress we did if Edison, Ford, and the like had to worry about things like this. Case in point, the toilet paper roll holder - how is that going to go wrong? I suppose if it were me, I might trip and sit on it and impale myself on it in the middle of the night.. I would think how stupid I was and get to the hospital for attention right away. I can just see someone else smiling at their own misfortune looking for a payday to be had thru legal means in civil court. That to me is a shining example of why we need to be burdened with insurance, because just that sort of thing could happen. This needs to change - They want smalll businesses to grow then they need to protect these businesses from the sue happy lawyers and people of this world.

[Peter J Lee]

Edison and Ford probably aren't who you want to cite.

[Brian Ross]

I will start my post by declaring my bias, lol. My wife is an insurance agent. Richards post has a lot of truth to it and I certainly don't take offence to it. I have my own business and carry insurance to protect myself from possible claims even though it is a part time business. My biggest concern from having a home based business would be having customers come to my shop. If one was to slip on a step and injure himself the bodily injury claim would result in an interview of the claimant. The adjusters first question would probably be " why were you at that location ". Undoubtly the claimant would tell the truth and you are in a heap of financial difficulty unless you have a liability policy covering your home based business. If you are having no customers come to your shop and just attending craft shows etc the risk is a whole lot less and life is full of risks.. I will conclude by stating that insurance agents are like woodworkers, generally a good group but all have their bad apples. have a good one.

Brian

[Stephen Cherry]

I'm frankly a little pissed

Richard, if you had a bad experience with an insurance company they I'm sorry, but I can assure you, paying claims is what we do and it isn't our mission to screw our customers.

Alan- before you get more pissed at Richard, who graciously shared his experience, you need to take this a little more seriously. Agents may be the smiling face, but the adjusters are out to screw the poor sap making a claim.

Seen it and experienced it so many times that it's just true. I'm not the only one either.

[Jerome Hanby]

What's the definition of "screw the poor sap"? If the poor sap's are faking information on their insurance claims to get money to which they are not entitled then that is causing my premiums to rise and I say more power to screwing them. A better solution would be to toss them in jail for a few decades but that would require a jury to rule in favor of the "blood sucking" insurance companies... Funny how so many people have that Blaupunkt stolen out of their Dodge Charger and all their friends chuckle under their breath about sticking it to the man.

It would be a much better world if everyone would just claim that to which they were entitled and the adjustors could just sign the forms and head to the next claim. Too bad it's just like wanting better government. If you want a better world or a better government (at least in this country) then we have to be better people.

[Richard Wolf]

Alan, first let me say that unfortunately, the word agent and company become confused in the discussion. My distaste, and I'm sure most people that feel as I do, only get face to face with the agent and our distaste gets misdirected. I've had a life time of listening to insurance companies promising "you are in good hands" until it hits the fan and the side stepping beginning. It is not only liability insurance, but every form, including health insurance which is probably the worst offender of them all. No details are necessary, I'm sure most people on this forum can supply their own. I remember my father's generation taking comfort in the fact that they had health insurance to take care on them when things went bad. Now, I feel that one of the most sickening things about getting hurt or sick is, will my insurance take care on this and most of my experience is, it will be an argument with them about, you didn't get permission in writing, or you went to the wrong doctor, or we don't cover that, etc. etc. And when the dust settles, the $1,000 the doctor charged, they will only cover $80.00 which I must pay the $20 copay. I feel more concern for my Dr. taking the beating than anyone else.

Listen, I'm sure you are a good person, honest, moral and with great intentions. As an individual, I'm sure you honestly like to help people, but nobody will disagree that the insurance industry is one that is always in the spot light when it comes to controversy. So don't be pissed, I am not singling you out. Everyone must walk their own path in life, and it sounds like you can walk your path with your head held high and that's good. I just wanted people to be on their guard when it comes time to talk to the insurance company because I believe that most companies seem like they would rather keep your money until they can no longer justify it. I also feel they want you to be covered from all angles in terms of insurance, but I for one will never really feel comfortable that I have been told the whole truth or that my insurance company is on my side.

[Chris Tsutsui]

Wow thank you so much for that link to the library chair.

A few years ago I found that exact chair sitting next to a dumpster in Laguna Woods. I inspected the chair and it was of top notch craftsmanship and solid wood with wooden plugs and everything. It functioned perfectly as well as both the chair and step ladder.

I couldn't resist but to take it home because I've never seen anything like that.

Now I finally know where it came from.

What's sad is somebody probably spent a lot of time on that chair and to see it thrown away seems a bit of a waste so now it's in my backyard.


I have no input on the insurance / business side of things. My answer has to do with what has sold the best at church fund-raising auctions:

1. The library chair that converts to a step ladder: $350 to $400.
http://www.amazon.com/Library-Stool-Chair-Woodworking-Project-Paper/dp/tags-on-product/B003P2BTGO

2. Jewelry Boxes: $35 to $175

3. Cutting Boards: $20 to $30

These are silent auctions where the items are displayed and the people have 30 days to bid on a piece of paper nearby.

[Andrew Joiner]

My day job is as an insurance agent. I specialize in commerical insurance. I've been in business for 26 years, and have worked with hundreds of insurance professionals.

As an agent, I sell insurance to make a living, so I guess I actaully do care about selling. I have however, never sold someone insurance they did not need.







Alan,
1- Would a hobbyist be covered for a loss if he's sold his work even once?
2- What is the cost range to add commercial coverage including product liability for someone who sells there work?

Thanks in advance.

This is a good thread.
I see insurance and the legal/liability issue as a reality of living in this country. Like many things in life it pays to learn about the risks and reality of my choices in advance. I like to get all the information I can before I pay for anything. Especially something I can't see (like insurance).

[Pat Barry]

Maybe you could expound on why Peter because I think they illustrate my point exactly.

[Alan Wright]

Richard and Stephen, I read your responses. Stephen, you might want to go and reread Richard's original post. I'm not sure how you can read that and find any evidence of 'gracious sharing of experience' but ... OK.

[Alan Wright]

Richard,

Thank you for your reply. It looks like you and I disagree on this issue. I guess I could work a little more to try and get you to take a more rational view of the insurance industry, but I doubt I would have any success, and I really don't have the energy. You see the world the way you see it and you're entitled. Thankfully, I'm not your insurance agent, so I don't have to deal with you.

Since this is a woodworker forum, I suspect the rest of the folks want to get back to more interesting issues... like woodworking.


Andrew: to answer your specific questions... your first question is a little broad, so it's tough to answer. However, selling one item doesn't necessarily make you a business. However, if it happened that the one item you sold caused an injury (what are the odds) you homeowners policy could decline liability coverage because they might consider it a commercial transaction. If you are going to do do some woodworking (and sell it) as a supplement to you day job, you may be able to get your homeowners policy to put a rider on your policy. It could be as little as $100.

As to your second question, there are a lot of variables. However, in my territory (central NY), a one man woodworking operation can get a $300,000 liability policy for about $250. That's about where it starts and as the business gets bigger, the insurance needs grow as well, so the premiums go up.

Hope this helps

Alan
]

[Stephen Cherry]

Richard and Stephen, I read your responses. Stephen, you might want to go and reread Richard's original post. I'm not sure how you can read that and find any evidence of 'gracious sharing of experience' but ... OK.

Alan- you may want to take a little time yourself and read through Richards posts. If you allow yourself, you'll see that he has shared lots of his experience and perspective on things, particularly woodworking. I can say that he has given this group much more than he has taken away.

Try, ... You can do it, if you try.

[Stephen Cherry]

What's the definition of "screw the poor sap"? .


Well, one particular instance that I am familiar is when an old lady tboned me while I was driving down the road in my Toyota Land Cruiser (minding my own business). A Land cruiser is not a 87 yugo, and I wanted a proper repair. Toyota said in written documents that the clearcoat could not be blended, which means a proper repair does not blend the clearcoat. The insurance adjuster, while he thought I was not listening, attempted to comspire with the bodyshop to perform an improper repair. (fortunatlly, I deal with a good bodyshop, and he wouldn't do it)

I was not looking for dimunition of value (or whatever it's called) on my relatively expensive car, I just wanted it to be properly fixed, and they didn't want to do it. It was not until after I hired an atty, who refered to adjusters with some colorful language, that they got themselves together. The old lady hit my car. It was her fault. They wanted to screw me until I got an attorney. Didn't want the Blaupunkt.

This is just one story, there are more.

[Andrew Joiner]

Andrew: to answer your specific questions... your first question is a little broad, so it's tough to answer. However, selling one item doesn't necessarily make you a business. However, if it happened that the one item you sold caused an injury (what are the odds) you homeowners policy could decline liability coverage because they might consider it a commercial transaction. If you are going to do do some woodworking (and sell it) as a supplement to you day job, you may be able to get your homeowners policy to put a rider on your policy. It could be as little as $100.

As to your second question, there are a lot of variables. However, in my territory (central NY), a one man woodworking operation can get a $300,000 liability policy for about $250. That's about where it starts and as the business gets bigger, the insurance needs grow as well, so the premiums go up.

Hope this helps

Alan
]

Alan, Don't you mean a homeowners policy would decline? Why would they pay if they don't have to?



New York is way cheaper than Oregon. My agent wants $500 a year to just add product liability . That's if I don't exceed $15K gross sales a year.

[Craig McCormick]

Thirty two years ago when I was going to start my home repair business I took a good friend out to dinner to pick his entrepreneurial brain. The best advice he gave me was not to get any business type license until someone asked for it. I did the same with insurance. Worked for me and made it much easier to get my business off the ground. I'm still in business.

AZCRAIG

[Jim Finn]

I make and sell small items of wood. I make them in my home workshop and sell them at festivals and street fairs here in West Texas. I have a business license.( no cost but have to collect sales tax) I stopped making toys just this year. My Liability Insurance for toys was $800 a year for minimum coverage. Toys do sell well, and it is fun to sell them to kids. Mostly I make intarsia items, wall hung stars and crosses, and cedar boxes ,with inlayed images, now. The boxes sell very well @ $15 each. Your price will vary depending on where you live I guess. Cost of living and wages are low here so... I have just started making desk top name plates and various signs. I do not know how well they will sell but I have had folks ask about them in the past.218837218838218839

[Matt Gumaer]

As a solo woodworker, on the insurance side of things, you probably need to think about two general things: 1) liability to others; and 2) reimbursement for your own property loss. So, you could be liable to a somebody else basically if your product hurts them or if they fall down your stairs, trip over your craft show display, etc. For your own loss, loss to your shop equipment may not be covered under your homeowners policy if its business equipment and I suppose the worse case could be that your house isn't covered for loss arising from your business (fire starts in shop and spreads to the rest of the house).

Whether you 'like' insurance agents or companies, you owe to yourself to see what your existing coverage will cover and what additional coverage is available to cover the 'new risks' associated with going into business. Only then can you make an informed decision about whether your willing to accept the risks of woodworking as a business and pay the cost to mitigate that risk through insurance.

Sure, insurance agents are sales people (some good and some bad) but good ones know what they're selling and will provide you needed information about what risks your assuming by starting a business and what the cost may be to insure against them.

Matt

[Mike Christopher]

Another thing to consider is setting up a limited liability company. This way, if you are sued, and your insurance is inadequate, they can only go after the assets of the company, not your personal assets like savings, house, etc. Sad that this is the way it is, but that is how our society is.

I have a friend who rents a house out, and he did this just in case anyone decides to sue him related to that rental property. He said it was quite easy and cheap to set it up.

[Richard Wolf]

I just think there is something missing here. The original poster, Rick, wants to make some wood projects, how many "bowls" can he turn before he has enough. He has a house full, has give more away then he has friends, but still wants to turn. All he is trying to do is get rid of some of his stuff while being able to replace the material cost. He is not in the wood business. Other hobbyist do this all the time. I know many guys building radio control airplanes that sell them all the time, are they liable if the plane crashes into something? How about the kid that mows your lawn for $25. Do you think he has insurance? Don't you think that there must be something called "Hobby income" that would be covered under your normal Umbrella Policy that many of us have anyway.
http://www.kiplinger.com/columns/ask/archive/why-you-need-an-umbrella-policy.html

See, the problem is, it is not normal for anyone to set up a small business with accountants, lawyers, insurance, advertising and all the other expenses, and then see if the product is saleable. Most small business ventures start out the same way, some one is good at what they do, some else says, "you should sell that". They start selling them and the demand grows. The birth of a business. So it is amazing that when a question is asked about, what kind of projects can I make that will sell, the majority of the responses, including mine, turns into a ridiculous discussion about insurance agents, companies and law suites.

Let me just throw this into the mix and get a few more people pissed off at me. If you are looking to sell wood products to people, including doing craft fairs, you are most likely not living in a multi million dollar home with large assets. Most lawyers would not accept a liability case against you because their payoff would be too small. Most lawyer are vultures with a limited amount of time and will only accept cases with the big payoff.

Now I'll hear from all the lawyers who are walking the righteous path and protecting all the helpless people that need their protection.