Knew Concepts saw and Elkhead handle

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I decided that I have been lax in posting about my Knew Concepts fret saw and the installation of the Elkhead handle. In my mind, this would be a trivial exercise. I intended to simply knock out the pint that holds the original handle and slide on the new handle. Nope, that did not work. It may be that I simply lack the guts to simply wack the pin "real good", but, I could not get it out. Well, next, I grabbed a drill and thought that I would simply drill it out. I drilled in a bit, but I, with my limited experience in this kind of thing, stopped short of drilling all the way through.

In the end, I split the old ferrule with a junk chisel and then I literally chiseled the wood away on the handle to get it out. At that point, it was not too difficult for me to knock the pin out.

The new handle went on trivially, and it mounts nicely. It would be trivial to replace (if I wanted to do that).

Can I compare the two handles? Well, did not like the old handle, not that it was the worst thing ever, it just was the normal every day regular cheap wood handle. The Elkhead handle, however, is a masterpiece worthy of my Titanium saw. This thing is one nice looking handle. I will admit that I like pretty things, but, the real joy is in how the handle feels in my hand.

So, I may have been a wee bit crazy to purchase a titanium saw when the aluminum saw was sufficient. If I had to do it again, I would still ponder which I wanted. I am sure I would be happy with either. The handle, however, is in my mind a no brainer. Even if I had a lathe to turn my own handle, I lack the abilities to make the very nice looking (and well engineered) ferrule.

I do believe that the handle was made by our very own Gary Benson; good job Gary!

This is also discussed here: www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?173533-ElkHead-Tools-saw-handle

[Eric Brown]

Andrew, like you I really like mine too. There is an advantage to the heavier handle also. If you make a board with a vee notch that lays off the side of your bench, you can use the saw like a jig saw. The heavier handle is in line with the blade and the momentum helps to keep the stroke smoother. Try it sometime.

Eric

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I am not sure that I understand your setup. Do you lay the board that you cut onto the board with the V or does the V help support the saw?

[Jason Coen]

The open V (bird's mouth) goes underneath the workpiece so the blade can move perpendicular to the wood much like a jigsaw or scrollsaw.

Got my handle installed and am currently working on a blanket chest. LOVE it.

[Eric Brown]

Like Jason said, it is a simple board with a slot in it to support the workpiece. I make them as I need them. You can bore a a hole first and then cut a slot to it from the end, but cutting a vee notch makes sliding the blade in and out easier. I have seen pictures of some mounted on a verticle board to allow different heights and clamping in a vice. My bench is on adjust-a-bench legs so I just raise or lower my bench as I need. One thing I forgot to mention is that it works best if the blade is installed to it cuts on the pull stroke. Another trick I sometimes use is to put the blade in with the teeth towards the frame. Then rotating the blade 45 degrees. I can then cut towards me and see the line better too.

Enjoy. Eric

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

That's how I've cut pearl inlay for guitar - but with those tiny pieces of brittle material, I found a bird's mouth often didn't give enough support - I made a saw kerf with a small joinery saw into a board, and slid the saw blade into that.

Again, the wood just helps support small/fragile pieces, so you don't get the vibration from cutting an unsupported piece, and a complex cuts in tiny pieces can be without having to adjust clamps as you make the turns - you continue to cut in one direction (up/down) and rotate the piece into the work. The workholding sort of becomes like using a simple bench hook or planing stop; the motion of the tool pushes the workpiece into the immovable part of the jig.

Quickest picture for me to find that gives a good visual indication of the concept is this version from Stew Mac: (you too can pay 12 dollars for two pieces of wood glued together!)

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Inlay,_pearl/Tools_and_supplies_for:_Inlay,_pearl_cutting/Pearl_Cutting_Jig.html?tab=Pictures#details

[Mike Brady]

Sounds like you have a lovely saw now, but I have to confess that I winced at the combined price of the saw and the handle. Its your money, so I can't say more, but really shouldn't a saw of that price come with a handle that is appropriate for it's function and aesthetics? If the new handle is what belongs on the tool, then put it on there from the get-go.

[Jim Neeley]

There's an interesting story Lee Marshall told me about his Knew Concepts saws.. Lee developes saws for the jewelry-making business and was approached about making one for woodworkers.. all based on functionality, as were the jewelry saws.. so he made some up and they started catching on. It was all word of mouth; the only place I knew of to buy them at the time I bought mine was from Lee. It was at that time I suggested he talk with some of the premium suppliers (Lee Valley, Craftsman Studio, Highland, etc.) about handling his saws.

He decided to get a booth at a WW show a few months ago to promote his saws and they were a big hit. While he was there someone who had purchased one of his saws later returned with some Elkhead products and recommended he either talk with Elkhead about going together or start offering them himself. It's only been fairly recently that the coco handles have been available.

I wouldn't be surprised to see them offered as a combo at some time by one or the other or a third party but you have to understand that many of these businesses (such as KC) are one-man shops and loving being a metalworker doesn't mean you want to be a woodworker... or vice versa. <g>

Just my $0.03 (inflation, you know?)

Jim in Alaska

[Eric Brown]

Jim, I was one of those people at the WW show. Except it actually happened at the 2010 show in Cincy. Derek Cohen had originally talked Lee into making the saws with the 45 degree feature. Lee thought he would try it in titanium. Brought a bunch to the WW show to, well, show. I ordered mine then and there, but I really didn't like the plain handle. When I asked Lee about it, he said he didn't want to spend his time making handles and also wanted to keep the price down. I went over to the Elk Head booth and asked them. Well I wasn't the first to ask, and they said they would evaluate the possibility. Well almost a year went by and I got an e-mail from them saying they had some and would bring them to the 2011 show, again in Cincy. I went and immediately bought the smaller handle (I have small hands). Expensive, yes. Worth it, yes. Absolutely necessary, no. Lee's aluminum saw would work well for most. But I like to think I am helping Lee's retirement fund and the economy at the same time.
Now consider what the titanum saws will be worth when Lee does retire. What are the odds of someone else making the saws in the future? Personally I think it's a sound investment. (Unless the world ends in December!) I consider the Elk Head handle to just be a premium option. (Lee worked with Elk Head to ensure it worked.) We live in good times.

Enjoy. Eric

[Derek Cohen]

Gary makes a beautiful handle for the fretsaw. Out of interest, would someone let me know the length of his handle?

The story with handles is that Lee liked the colour red. Red stands for creativity. Even before the 45 degree angled version, I started Lee on the path to making the saws with woodworkers in mind. He really did not expect the handle's looks to be important. It took persuading just to stop with the red paint! :)

The fretsaw really came into its own with the ability to saw at a 45 degree angle.

One must think of this as a $95 saw. For that amount it is reasonably priced. The titanium version is nice to have but not essential, and that is what pushes the price into the range where one starts to expect a fancy handle. The saw has not changed - only the material. Expensive material.

I have a bunch of these saws in my shop, some prototypes and a couple of current production versions. Here is a re-handled prototype ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/Knew%20Concepts/KC1.jpg

I am looking forward to Lee coming for a visit in November. That will be fun!

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Brady]

I completely agree with you Derek. The rehandled saw looks great. That's just my point. Why should you have to pay that much for a tool and then feel the need to replace part of it immediately? You make the argument that his margins don't allow a nicer handle. Hard to believe at those price points. I think he is using an off-the-shelf inexpensive handle instead of making a proper one. Just trying to give some construction criticism. Going back under my rock now.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

The included handle seems pretty standard for this type of saw and has been in use for years.

Many people seem to use the standard handle with no problems, at least I have never noticed anyone (besides myself) complaining about the handles on this type of saw in general.... No, that is not entirely true, I think that Rob Cosman indicated that upgrading the handle was useful, which is why his has a special handle (see http://www.robcosman.com/tools_fret.php). I have not had an opportunity to try Rob's saw (I really should find one and try it).

As someone who does have trouble with the usual handle, it was a functional upgrade for me... and it did not hurt that the handle sure was pretty. If I had the tools required for turning, I might have just made one myself, but I don't own the tools and it would then take me trial and error to find something that I liked. I also like that if I have need, I can purchase another handle and easily take it off and replace it without damaging the existing handle (not that I expect to do so, but, if I did different types of work, I might do exactly this).

I will admit that I like pretty, which is why I had my Bad Axe saw tricked out to look pretty. Would not bother for a tool that will certainly be highly abused and therefore end up with many blemishes anyway (such as with my sledge hammer).

[Jim Neeley]

Andrew,

Rob's design is a wooden handle with hockey stick tape wrapped around it. First, the tape is designed to give a good grip and Rob takes it one step farther by adding the twist many hockey players like.

You can see a video the tape being applied by going to http://www.robcosman.com/tools_hockey_tape.php and then clicking on the YouTube link.

I own one of his saws and, while the frame rigidity doesn't compare with the Knew Concepts, the grip is great! For those owning the Knew Concepts saw and not wanting to pay to upgrade to a cocobolo handle, give it a try.

Jim

[Jack Curtis]

...First, the tape is designed to give a good grip and Rob takes it one step farther by adding the twist many hockey players like....

Also, tennis racquet tape works great for tool handle wrapping.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I'd be tempted to use the same cork tape I use on my bicycle bars.

The first thing that comes to mind when I see the Cosman tape wrap is I would use any color beside white - my experience with similar things is the white starts looking pretty gross in short time.

[Jason Coen]

The first thing that comes to mind when I see the Cosman tape wrap is I would use any color beside white - my experience with similar things is the white starts looking pretty gross in short time.

I thought in these parts we referred to that effect as "patina". :D

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Out of interest, would someone let me know the length of his handle?
From the end of the handle to the start of the ferrule is about 3 3/4". From the end of the handle to the end of the ferrule is about 4 3/8"

[Derek Cohen]

From the end of the handle to the start of the ferrule is about 3 3/4". From the end of the handle to the end of the ferrule is about 4 3/8"

Thanks Andrew.

I think that Gary and I have gone about the handle design differently, although they look similar (although mine does not compare in execution to the Elkhead). Gary, if you are reading it would be great to hear from you.

My handle is 5 1/2" to the ferule and 6" in total length. This is significantly longer than Gary's. My intent was to replicate the feel of a Japanese pull saw (since the fretsaw cuts on the pull), which requires a longer handle, along with the looks of a Western Gent Saw. Compared to the original Knew Concepts saw - whose handle is 4 1/4" long, plus another 3/8" for the ferule - the longer handle offers a lighter, more balanced fee with more control.

I have two models. The first is the Holocaust Version (after the Bomb) ....

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/Knew%20Concepts/NewHandle2.jpg

Just kidding - playing around with Paint.Net

Here is a re-handled production titanium version - Padauk handle ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/Knew%20Concepts/NewHandle1.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Sure is pretty

[Gary Benson]

Guys,
Thanks for the compliments and the useful discussion. Derek, we actually have 2 sizes of handles based on our medium and large screwdriver handles. The medium is just under 4 inches (wood only), and the large is just under 4 1/2 (wood only). The ferrule is about 5/8, so the large is just over 5 inches, but likely fatter than yours. Lee felt the longer handle would be preferred (similar to your logic) in that jewelers use these saws vertically and use the longer handle as a plumb reference. We let all of our customers at WIA try both handle sizes, and the decisions seemed to be about 50/50. I think that hand size is a factor, but many people seemed to like the feel of having the medium handle nestle in the palm of their hand like a butt or small paring chisel.
I would suggest that the shape and size of the wood is largely a personal preference, but we spent some time designing the brass fitting. It was designed to securely lock to the frame. Both the fit and set screws provide a rock solid feel to the handle. Lee was concerned about the additional weight, so we shortened the internal tang, but most users seem to like the weight in that it provides a sense of stability (maybe dampens vibration too?). The lightness of the frame really shines in that it makes turning the saw effortless, and there is no tendency for the weight of the frame to influence the direction of the cut. For those of you who would like their own handle design, we are willing to sell the ferrule alone. All you would have to do is make a 1/2 inch square mortise, chuck the blank on some square key or bar stock, then turn to your desired shape and size. We use the rubber toughened CA glue to hold the handle on the ferrule, then standard installation rules would apply.
Gary

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I was very impressed with the ferrule... Your work on that paid off.