Stand alone Jointer and planers for shop

[Kevin Crawford]

Hello,
I think I have decided against A J/p Combo for my shop in favor of stand alone units. But as much as I would love to get felder/MM/ect planer and jointer, I still want to keep the budget for the two peices less than 10k. I was thinking about the Hammer A3 41A( their 16" jointer) and the Powermatic 209HH( 20 inch planer w Bryd).
For the jointer, I'd like it to be a 16", and the planer I'd like it to be 20-22" and to have the bryd head in it. I dont think I need to have the byrd in Jointer( it will give me a little extra money for another machine). If I need both sides to be pristine, I'll just flip the board over for a final pass in the planer.
Anyone have either of these machines? Thoughts or experience with them? And I would love to hear some suggestions on other machines to look into.

[Glenn Ancona]

kevin - talk to this guy. It appears things are slow in Michigan if that is not way far
http://www.woodweb.com/exchanges/machinery/posts/453939.html
Machine looks to be in great condition.

good luck in your search - Glenn

[Jeff Duncan]

What are you using currently? Only reason I ask is b/c $10k is a LOT to tie up into 2 classic style woodworking machines:confused: If we know a little more about your situation you may get some different ideas?

I picked up a 20" SCM planer and a 16" EMA jointer for much less than half of what your looking to spend, and that Powermatic isn't even in the same league as the SCM. Not sure about the quality of the Hammer as I haven't ever used one. Both my machines are straight knife, but as they are industrial machines they work very well with minimal tear out. With a Powermatic or similar machine I think the insert head would be a good choice.

good luck,
JeffD

[David Kumm]

+1 on the 900 series JP for a combo. Your budget allows for medium to higher end hobby grade if you buy new and medium to higher end industrial if you go used. The jointer in particular is better sourced used. SCMI 410, Northerfield 16HD or Oliver 166CD have long tables, superior bearings, and will stand up to anything you can drop on it. Fences are much larger and stouter as well. $3-5K is high end for used jointers and light years ahead of the Hammer. Planers are tougher to find used with a byrd head although they show up periodically. A Powermatic 180 retrofitted with a byrd will be in the $3000-4500 range but still way above the newer machines of the same price in build quality. The really heavy old planers were 24" which may be more than you care to deal with but have separate motors for cutterhead and feed rollers and weigh in double at 2500-3000 lbs. I would consider a SCMI 20" with a Tersa head in the 4-6K range. Way better planer and the tersa is a great system. If you do it right you will have enough left over to get a rotary phase converter and open up a whole new world of options. Dave

[Rick Fisher]

I have a 12" Griggio Jointer with Tersa Knives and a General 330-1 20" Planer which is basically the PM you mentioned. The Planer has a helical head.

There have been a few times I wished the jointer was wider, but more often I wished it was longer.. Its about 96" long overall..

The ideal jointer to me would be a used SCM Formula 16" with 102" (approx) tables (as David mentioned)... The problem is that they are 3 phase, but for your budget, you can make that happen. They also take up an impressive amount of space.

In my case, my jointer is far superior to my planer. It becomes an " ugly cousin " relationship. The planer is 20" .. and helical, but its very obvious when using both that its not the same quality machine as the jointer.

Longer term, I would love to find a good used SCM or Felder Planer .. Problem is that even used they are big bucks..

I have started buying and selling used industrial machinery and recently picked up a used Felder Edge Sander .. I plan to spend a few years testing it before selling .. lol I mention the Euro stuff because you mentioned the Hammer.. Once you have a few Euro machines in your shop, you realize that you get what you pay for ..

[David Kumm]

Rick, the Griggio is on par with the SCMI. Great machines as are Kolle if you find one. The advantage of the Oliver, Porter 300CM and some Northfields is the guard swings out of the way allowing for jointing wider boards. The Porter works really well, the Oliver less well. All jointers can be retrofitted with swing away guards. would make your Griggio even better. 96" tables should be minimum. I even added 20" felder table to the outfeed of my Porter making it 115" overall. An Oliver 299 ITCH is a pretty nice planer although you have to learn how to grind the inserts- once or twice in a lifetime. The footprint is as small as a 24" planer gets and a proscale makes it repeatable. Once you get three phase and use the bigger stuff you won't go back. Dave

[Kevin Crawford]

Thanks for the reply's guys,
To elaborate on my situation, I am moving into a larger shop later this year(850sf, not huge but bigger than I have now) and upgrading most of my machines so I can transition from hobbyist to prof. I'd like to start with getting jointer, planer, slider TS, and hopefully sliding shaper, not to mention the Dust Co and ducting and misc hand power tools and such. I can spend about 30k on the transition for tools.
The weight of the machines is an issue. I will have a wood floor(beefed up wood floor but wood floor none the less) so I don't want to put any 2000lb+ machine on it. I'd like to stay under 1700-1800lb and with a box style base instead of a three point base.
I haven't used a machinery moving company before. How much do they usually run to move the machine? For the sake of the question lets assume there moving it within 100miles.
In reference to the phase converter, do they save you any money on power when running your machines or does it just add the flexibility to use three phase machines?

[Van Huskey]

@ 850sf with a 16" jointer, 20+ inch planer, slider and large shaper and you haven't even mentioned sanders I would take a serious look at layout. With just what you mentioned along with work benches, storage etc that space is closing in tight in my head. I understand the desire for a wider planer but in that space it seems a J/P like the Felder 900 series would be just the ticket.

[Jerome Hanby]

I just didn't trust moving guys with my shop stuff. I rented a short moving truck with a lift gate for a week and moved all my shop gear myself. In my case I had roll out access on both ends of the move. The folding shop crane form HF was a huge help also.

[David Kumm]

850 sq ft will get used up in a hurry. I would look at the JP combo and add a little Delta DC33 type planer with a byrd head if you need a finish planer or a little 6" jointer for edges. Both can be stored out of the way and minimize the switchover time. If you can rent a JLG drop deck trailer and a pallet jack you can move about anything. Dave

[Larry Edgerton]

Spend more money on the planer than the jointer. Its easier to get by with a marginal jointer than a marginal planer.

There are a ton of SCMI planers on the market used for about 4500. As good as most of us ever need.

Individual pieces are better for me.

Rick, what model is your Griggio? I'm looking at a used one, was just curious.

Larry

[David Kumm]

Have you seen the SCMI jointer on woodweb? Dave

[Larry Edgerton]

Saw that one David, looks to be taken care of but has a straight knife head, and its a bit far away.

There was a Griggio PF330 out east at a good price but no pics and I see it is not on the list any more. Thats why I asked about that particular machine the other day.

I am in no hurry, one will come up that is just right........

Larry

[John A langley]

Kevin. Hope you are buying a shoe horn with that equipment. A 20" planer is an ideal size. I would get it with a tusa head. However, you can get a 15" planer that would save a little room and you could do a panel with only one seam up to 30"' but you would have to glue after you ran your panels. As far as the jointer goes, the wider the better obviously. I hesitate to recommend any brands. But I sent back a 20" Powermatic planer. I don't know if it was just that one, but it was junk. You could also rethink the joiner if you are getting a European style slider. They are great for joining lumber but they won't take a twist out of a board like a joiner will. Just a couple a quick thoughts. Good luck with your endeavors.

[David Kumm]

Kevin, three phase is the way to go IMO. Better motors, fewer problems, more flexibility. You won't save any energy as the RPC consumes some. I believe you can pay for the RPC through machinery savings as single phase machines sell at a premium. I wish my single phase machines were three phase and have never wished for the opposite . Dave

[Jeff Duncan]

Wow, I know this is straying off topic but with a $30k budget and 850 sq. ft. of space, I think I'd use that money to build an addition before upgrading the equipment. I'm a one man, (most of the time), shop with 1700 sq. ft. and it's too tight for me. Your going to run out of space before you start building anything! My last shop was about 850 sq. ft. and I had to move as it wasn't enough space. The biggest machine I had in there was a 24" drum sander! Have you any firsthand experience with sliding table saws? Even the smaller stroke versions eat up a lot of space!

I also have to second the vote for that jointer on Woodweb, there's nothing wrong with a straight knife head and that's about as nice a machine as you'll find short of a Martin. Well generally speaking anyway, I don't know anything about that specific machine, just the SCM jointers in general. Again though, if your going to start looking at bigger equipment you really need to seriously consider your shop size and layout.

good luck,
JeffD

[glenn bradley]

If I need both sides to be pristine, I'll just flip the board over for a final pass in the planer.

This statement makes the large assumption that you will not experience significant tearout from your knifed jointer. If you are working with tearout prone material (and I assume you are or you would not be looking for spiral cutterheads), often tearout is deep enough so that simply flipping the piece over for a light pass will not recover it. The damage is too deep to retain your thickness once the damage is milled out. I work with a lot of figured material and the large supply of "I'll use that for something thinner later on" material I was accumulating lead me to spiral heads on the jointer and planer . . . life, is good. JMHO. ;-)

[Van Huskey]

I keep coming back to the thread because I am curious about the space plan for the size of the shop. You obviously have a plan and I really want to hear about it, it may help me with my plans.

[Larry Edgerton]

This statement makes the large assumption that you will not experience significant tearout from your knifed jointer. If you are working with tearout prone material (and I assume you are or you would not be looking for spiral cutterheads), often tearout is deep enough so that simply flipping the piece over for a light pass will not recover it. The damage is too deep to retain your thickness once the damage is milled out. I work with a lot of figured material and the large supply of "I'll use that for something thinner later on" material I was accumulating lead me to spiral heads on the jointer and planer . . . life, is good. JMHO. ;-)

That depends on what he buys. Some of the stuff he is looking at is available with a Tersa head or equivilant. I have both Tersa and Byrd heads, and the Tersa head does a better job with no tearout. All straight knives are not created equally.

I run my stock through the jointer with the Byrd with the intention of giving that face a pass through the planer. On my planer, depending on the species about the lightest pass I can take without infeed marks is 20 thousandths. Thats a SCM 520, my old Powermatic beast required a bit more cut.

850 feet is pretty small. I have not had time to do my main shop so I have just the essentials crammed in a three car garage, 864 feet. I have a planer, jointer, small slide saw, drill press, shaper, two benches, radial arm saw, and a phase converter in there and it is terrible! I am coming out of a 9000 foot shop, so it is taking some adjustment. If it was not just temporary, I would be planning an addition. That said, I would not compromise on the tool size or quality. Get what will work for you forever, and make it work out. I wish I had bought the euro stuff the first time, would have saved a lot of coin, and time.

Larry

[Kevin Crawford]

Thanks for the interest and...possible concern for my situation.
If I have to buy a J/P combo because of space, I'm not going to loose any sleep over. But if space can allow for it, I like most would prefer separate machines. I'm just a little concerned about the repeatable of even a Felder/MM J/P. I've only used two but both it seemed needed to be checked frequently that the table was level to the blade. If I got one, I'd probably have to check it every time I use it just out of paranoia, thus adding to change over time.

The Rentals were good ideas, both the truck with lift gate and the drop deck trailer, thanks guys. I do intend on taking advantage of the used market for several things. I did take a look at that SCMI jointer. Its pretty, but I'm not quite ready to buy yet and as Larry pointed out, another will come along.

A 15" is another option but I haven't really looked into which would be worth it.

Getting a phase converter might just be worth it so I can take full advantage of the used market. Do you happen to know the range of pricing for Phase converters? I know people that like the PhasePerfect ones. Is phase perfect the one to shoot for or are there other good options?

In reference to building the addition, its not really an option. I know just as well as everyone else here its going to tight but I can work here for very little rent so I'm going to make do for a while until I can move to a bigger place.

I know this is not in the workshop forum but if you want to see what I'm talking about, I will attach the layout I have so far. Any suggestions or criticisms are welcome as always. I haven’t uploaded on this site so it might take me a few attempts.
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[David Kumm]

I have two Phase Perfects and a Kay MA2. I bought the PP used. One was still wrapped and the other had been used. They go new for 3K and used for $1200-2000. I much prefer the PP. Really quiet and the power is balanced. You can get more balanced voltage with the newer RPC as well but not quite as well adjusted as the PP over all amperages. If you are running single phase circuits out of the three phase panel- most panels allow that- you need to be aware that since all three legs are manufactured the PP must be on to run L1 and L2. I use the PP as primary with a double throw switch to the panel so I can divert to utility power on L1 and L2 to run a couple of space heaters without leaving the PP on. It is easy to upgrade at a later date. I still have the Kay hooked up as a backup but have not had the PP fail. The second is in my Storage building to run machines I can't keep in the shop. They weigh less than 100# so are portable. I keep mine above some cabinets and out of the way. Dave

[Rod Sheridan]

. I'm just a little concerned about the repeatable of even a Felder/MM J/P. I've only used two but both it seemed needed to be checked frequently that the table was level to the blade. If I got one, I'd probably have to check it every time I use it just out of paranoia, thus adding to change over time.





Hi Kevin, I've spoken to many owners of Felder J/P machines, and have owned a Hammer J/P for 3 years, without any table adjustments required.

I don't know of anyone who checks the machines after converting, and they stay in calibration. MiniMax owners report similar experiences.

You must have had an odd occurence with the Felder j/p................Rod.

[Paul Johnstone]

I got the Jet version of the 20" planer with carbide insert head about 2 years ago. Not sure the differences between the Jet and the Powermatic, but I love the Jet. Definitely go 20". You have the budget for it.. I think people are overstating the space concern. When looking at your layout, the difference between a 20" planer and something smaller is negligible. I like how you laid everything out. Good luck with your new business.

[Kevin Crawford]

I have two Phase Perfects and a Kay MA2. I bought the PP used. One was still wrapped and the other had been used. They go new for 3K and used for $1200-2000. I much prefer the PP. Really quiet and the power is balanced. You can get more balanced voltage with the newer RPC as well but not quite as well adjusted as the PP over all amperages. If you are running single phase circuits out of the three phase panel- most panels allow that- you need to be aware that since all three legs are manufactured the PP must be on to run L1 and L2. I use the PP as primary with a double throw switch to the panel so I can divert to utility power on L1 and L2 to run a couple of space heaters without leaving the PP on. It is easy to upgrade at a later date. I still have the Kay hooked up as a backup but have not had the PP fail. The second is in my Storage building to run machines I can't keep in the shop. They weigh less than 100# so are portable. I keep mine above some cabinets and out of the way. Dave

Thanks Dave,
Having not used a PC before, how many machines can be fed threw it. Is it just a situation were you can run 3ph to each machine but they can only be run one at a time?


Thanks for clearing that Rob, It is good to hear.

[Larry Edgerton]

I have a large RPC that will start 50 Hp, and I can run everthing in the shop at the same time, but......

I am looking to change to a Phase Perfect setup when I get my new shop going. RPC's make a annoying noise and should not be idled too long, and are generally a pain for those reasons. I like quiet so maybe its just me, but I am looking at using a Phase Perfect for all and keeping the RPC around in case I ever get a wide belt. This would solve both of my annoyances, the noise and switching the RPC on and off.

Larry

[David Kumm]

Kevin, I hope you get my PM. There seem to be some problems with people recieving them. Dave

[Kevin Crawford]

Dave, now that you asked me about it, I just saw the email you sent, good info thank you. If I can find a PP or a RPC used around me then I'll get that but I see very few of them around me. I might have to bite the bullet and buy a new PP

Larry, Ya I'm not sure I could deal with a constant buzzing sound either

Thanks Paul for your input. I know I don't want to go smaller than a 20". I will make it work.

[Brian Weick]

Have you considered a VFD? I run ALL my machinery off VFDs (independently) a little pricey but far less than a PP to run your entire shop, the VFD options are incredible and so is the protection for the motor and the drive....

Phase perfect......$6-8000 will run 30hp-40hp, this is basically a VFD, with no variables....you have to decide weather it's worth all that money. I have 5 YASKAWA VFD drives and spent just under $2500 for NOS . The other side to that coin is re-sale. People that don't have 3ph power will steer clear of these machines because of all that is involved with the conversion and don't really want to spend the money to do so. I will tell you this, when they see a jointer, planer, table saw, shaper, lathes..etc..etc..etc with a digital control pad, with soft start, dynamic breaking, ramping etc,etc,etc,...and they can run it from 220 single phase power.... You kind of get their attention....

Just something to consider,

Hey we all have our own, and I respect that but thought I should give you my thoughts about your situation.


3ph power is the way to go. Just a side note you could get yourself some nice American Arn for a lot less and IMO , the cadilac of WW machinery, Oliver........$10,000 for 2 pieces of equipment is a little extreme. There is a Fay & Egan 560 lightning 24" planer for sale write now for $1800.00 in very good condition , a 16" Oliver jointer for $2500.00 - these machines were built to last and were built with quality in mind, not to mention they have so much character over what's coming here from overseas....now if your mechanically inclined you can restore the entire machinery back to the day it was new -if you so desire. I'm doing this with my Moak 32" band saw write now-she's a beautiful saw , or going to be....but this is something I enjoy, hobbie of mine....

My Oliver 88D concentric/w slider was $2200.00 , if you were available to buy this new today....$13,458.00 it is an incredible Saw bench- the draw back is the walls are not made from gauged steel plating, it's all solid cast iron-1/2" thick , so you have some weight to deal with these.....2225# but IMO there is no comparison...

I look at value VS quality and this by far is one he'll of a bang for your buck....


Just my 2 cents....

B,

[Jamie Buxton]

You haven't said what you expect to build in this shop. But if you're going to be building big things (like a kitchen's worth of cabinets) or a lot of things (like a short run of tables or chairs for a restaurant) you need floor space for assembly. Or if you're going to be spray-finishing stuff, you need floor space for that. Filling the entire shop with machines may not leave you enough room to actually make money in the shop.