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View Full Version : More electrical madness :-/



Dan Hintz
01-03-2012, 11:46 AM
Considering the recent spate of electrical questions, I thought I would add my own little adventure to the mix.

A quirky little problem has cropped up (again). Our house is pushing 40 years old... relatively good bones, but the skin (both inside and outside) needs some serious updating. As time (and energy) permits, I update some small piece here and there, or when something goes wrong. This is one of those latter instances. The previous owner fancied himself a handyman, so needless to say I've spent a lot of time fixing his "repairs". Wiring was definitely not his strong suit, and to be fair, the original builders obviously cut some serious corners.

One circuit in particular has proven particularly vexing. Initially, the bathroom was on the same circuit as the kitchen lights, along with (it appears) at least one socket in the living room. When I first moved in with my wife about 5 years ago, she complained the bathroom light would turn off on its own, and the only solution was to turn it off and let it sit for an hour or so. Could be a heating issue, bad breaker, loose/broken wire, etc. But to my chagrin, I couldn't find the fault. Eventually I brought it up to current code by making it its own 20A circuit, replaced all of the wiring, etc. No more problem.

Move forward to a couple of weeks ago and some furniture rearranging... the TV, DVR, etc. are now plugged into that outlet. Thanks to a loud click with the DVR power, we notice it was going on/off. Now I have to get back in the attic again and try to figure out where the various wires go to and come from. It's cold outside... and I don't like cold. Last time I went up there I found fun things, like two different breakers supplying power to the same circuit (thank God they were at least on the same phase!).

So I replaced the old stab-connector socket with a modern screw type, hoping it was merely a loose wire. No dice... an alarm clock plugged into the socket went out after an hour or so. But here's where it gets wierd.

I turned on the kitchen light and the clock came on. Kitchen light off, alarm clock off. I did this a few more times to make sure it wasn't just me. Realize the wall socket is not a switched circuit and will often work when the light is off, and sometimes won't when the light is on. I can accept a broken wire, a loose connection, etc. but this one bugs the you know what out of me.

I'll likely end up ripping out the wiring to the kitchen lights at this point, possibly even opening up the wall to remove the 14 gauge stuff that's in there for the wall socket, but the whole thing just bugs me. If anyone has some weird theories I haven't considered, I'm all ears.

Mike Henderson
01-03-2012, 1:35 PM
Wow, that's really strange. You have outstanding electrical knowledge and you're on site. I can't even begin to offer any suggestions.

Good luck. Let us know what you find.

Mike

Jerome Stanek
01-03-2012, 1:57 PM
it sounds like a loose neutral some where. Are the outlets or switches using the stab in or are they using the screw. I would use the screw to get a good connection.

Jim Koepke
01-03-2012, 2:23 PM
I turned on the kitchen light and the clock came on. Kitchen light off, alarm clock off.

This sounds like those circuits are sharing a neutral that has become disconnected. I would guess if you turn the kitchen light on and then unplug all of the items that run only when the kitchen light is on, the kitchen light will go off.

I have a neighbor who has told me that I only need to run one neutral for items on different sides of the mains as per code. Yes, it saves a bit of wire or room in the conduit, but it can cause a lot of headaches when something isn't working properly.

So you may have one of those "only needs one neutral wire" for the whole house kind of electricians in your home's history.

Sometimes saving a few bucks can cause a million dollar headache.

jtk

Dan Hintz
01-03-2012, 3:27 PM
I have a neighbor who has told me that I only need to run one neutral for items on different sides of the mains as per code. Yes, it saves a bit of wire or room in the conduit, but it can cause a lot of headaches when something isn't working properly.
A loose neutral was the only thing that came to mind when I saw the instant on/off action of the clock radio with the lights.

There are definitely areas where the house was wired with a shared neutral. In fact, one box I thought the failing socket was tied to (turns out it wasn't) has just such a connection. 3+1 wire comes in, one phase feeds a row of boxes, the second phase shoots elsewhere in the house to feed some more boxes. The irony to it all is the "splitter" box sits rights above the main electrical panel in the basement. They saved themselves about 8' of 2+1 wire, used 4' of 3+1 in its place, and have caused me no end to the headaches.

Looks like I should spend some time mapping out all of the runs to this particular circuit and see if the neutral is truly clean. With all of the insulation, runs changing between the basement, ground floor, and attic, and other junk, it's easy to lose track of what you're looking for.

ray hampton
01-03-2012, 3:35 PM
do this happen at any time of the day or when the washer or similar machine are spinning

Jim Koepke
01-03-2012, 4:31 PM
A loose neutral was the only thing that came to mind when I saw the instant on/off action of the clock radio with the lights.

There are definitely areas where the house was wired with a shared neutral. In fact, one box I thought the failing socket was tied to (turns out it wasn't) has just such a connection. 3+1 wire comes in, one phase feeds a row of boxes, the second phase shoots elsewhere in the house to feed some more boxes. The irony to it all is the "splitter" box sits rights above the main electrical panel in the basement. They saved themselves about 8' of 2+1 wire, used 4' of 3+1 in its place, and have caused me no end to the headaches.

Looks like I should spend some time mapping out all of the runs to this particular circuit and see if the neutral is truly clean. With all of the insulation, runs changing between the basement, ground floor, and attic, and other junk, it's easy to lose track of what you're looking for.

It sounds like in the long run you might be better off with a do over on the wiring.

jtk

Chris Rosenberger
01-03-2012, 7:05 PM
Are they breaking the neutral with the switch instead of the hot? I have seen some weird stuff done with wiring of 3 way switch circuits & switched neutrals over the years.

I agree with Jim, it might be best to run all new.

Lee Schierer
01-03-2012, 7:31 PM
I'd bet on a loose wire, probably in the kitchen switch box. Check the wire nuts by removing them, retwist the wires and put on new wire nuts. Amateur electricians are usually too cheap to buy the proper assortment or ill informed on what size wire nuts to use and often use the wrong ones or try to connect too many wires with one. I've found similar problems in the wiring in my daughters house, where they also left virtually no slack in the wires to allow the outlet to be pulled out of the box.

John Coloccia
01-03-2012, 7:49 PM
I did shared neutrals where I had to for box fill concerns, but they're on ganged breakers, as is required by the latest NEC (though it wasn't required at the time).

It's stuff like this that makes me call in the pros, Dan. It stinks of something heating up and disconnecting, or some appliance somewhere periodically kicking on (maybe your well pump if you have one....who knows) and mucking things up. Either way it not a good situation.

Dan Hintz
01-03-2012, 8:37 PM
It's stuff like this that makes me call in the pros, Dan. It stinks of something heating up and disconnecting, or some appliance somewhere periodically kicking on (maybe your well pump if you have one....who knows) and mucking things up. Either way it not a good situation.
Heating is the more likely scenario, if given only the two. When the socket isn't working, it's completely dead... when it was working that night, the switch had definite control over it. No well pump.

I'll let you guys know what I find when it warms up a bit and I can get back into the attic without putting on a parka... hopefully this weekend.

Ed Griner
01-04-2012, 6:19 AM
Sometimes in remodeling, devices(lights/receptacles) incorrectly get wired in series,I have found in three way/four way switch applications,the white neutral got integrated with the travelers. Both of the above will cause some of the problems you have described.Just a couple suggestions/Good Luck

Dan Hintz
01-04-2012, 6:37 AM
Sometimes in remodeling, devices(lights/receptacles) incorrectly get wired in series,I have found in three way/four way switch applications,the white neutral got integrated with the travelers. Both of the above will cause some of the problems you have described.Just a couple suggestions/Good Luck
I'd agree if the action was consistent. Sometimes the socket is affected by the switch, sometimes not (some moments it will work regardless of the kitchen light switch position, so it can't be wired in series).

Scott T Smith
01-04-2012, 5:54 PM
Dan, if it were me I think that I would start at the load center and track the circuit outward, checking each connection. One thing in particular that I would look for is to see if anything is wired where the polarity is reversed enroute.

As an example, if the hot for the outlet that the radio is on is wired to the neutral output from the kitchen light, there is a possibility that it could cause the situation that you're experiencing. Sometimes in new construction the wires get painted over in the boxes, making it difficult for the original installer to see the wire colors.

The other thing that I would look for is loose wires anywhere in the circuit, and any three way light switches.

Good luck on your troubleshooting - definitely a head scratcher.

Scott

Brian Elfert
01-04-2012, 9:17 PM
It sounds like this house needs a total rewire like another poster already suggested.

I looked at a number of different houses before I decided on a tear down and a whole new house. One house I kinda liked with a huge lot had ungrounded wiring. I really wanted a house where I was not going to spend either all my time, or all my money fixing up.

Jim Matthews
01-05-2012, 8:45 AM
Is there anything mechanical in close proximity to an affected outlet?

Washer/dryer/dishwasher have rotating parts that can shake the "bones of the house" as they work.
If you have a damp area, this combined with corrosion would certainly make for an intermittent connection.

Have you found damp insulation or fill near any of the dodgy outlets?

I'm with you on the "fix the last owner's repairs" gripe list.
They try to save ten bucks and that cost you a hundred...

Dan Hintz
01-05-2012, 10:47 AM
Nope on any of the above... washer, dryer, and HVAC are all downstairs in the basement on concrete. The biggest motor in the affected area would be the fridge compressor... I bet I shake the house more walking around than that motor (I could stand to lose a few pounds).

It's supposed to be in the low 50's on Saturday, so hopefully I can get into the attic and check things out.

Phil Thien
01-05-2012, 10:27 PM
Initially, the bathroom was on the same circuit as the kitchen lights, along with (it appears) at least one socket in the living room. When I first moved in with my wife about 5 years ago, she complained the bathroom light would turn off on its own, and the only solution was to turn it off and let it sit for an hour or so.

Reminds me of the old woman who drove her husband to the doctor. When the doctor was done with the exam, he called the woman into the office and said, "your husband told me something that is a little concerning. He said when he goes to the bathroom in the middle of the night, he lifts the toilet seat and the light in the room goes on. What do you make of that?"

"Oh good Lord," the woman said, "he's peeing in the refrigerator again."