Veritas Twin Screw Vise VS Moxon

[Mike Holbrook]

I was reading about the Twin Screw Veritas in the catalogue last night and found a picture of one on a fellow SMC members bench in another post. It got me thinking about putting one of these on one end of the Split-Top Roubo I have been planing. I was going to make a Moxon removable, but it looks like the Veritas vice has some interesting additional features. Both screws being able to move together in tandem is an attractive feature that should at least have some speed benefits. The larger version even has the 24" capacity I was interested in. Mounted on the end of the bench and extended it would add at least another foot to my bench length and clamping capacity, but only when needed. With dogs in the face jaws it would function as a huge tail vise. Apparently there is a spring-loaded lock pin which allows the chain to be disengaged for controlled jaw skewing...

I think I could still build a bench on bench or simpler support table to work up higher for things like dovetails, just as was my plan for a Moxon. My main concern is the width of this vise. I'm not sure if it would be necessary to make my bench wider than I want for it to fit. Since my plan is for a Split-Top it will be more than 24" wide anyway though.

I was hoping to get some comments from those who may have had the opportunity to use this type vise.

[Jim Neeley]

Mike,

I have a Veritas TS mounted on the end of my 3'x7'x3.25" bench, set up for 24" capacity.

FWIW, I also have the LN chain drive vise on the face of my bench, set up for 24" capacity.

Both are awesome vises, each with features setting it apart from the other.

Yes, the Veritas permits skewing the vise (up to about 1 turn). If you envision extreme skewing, consider an Emmert vise (or a copy). More on this, if you wish.

The biggest plus (and minus) of the Veritas for me is that the rear screw "nut" on the vise mounts to the jaw, rather than the bench. That is, you mount the rear jaw to the bench and then the front jaw to the rear jaw. This permitted me to install 8" deep jaws on there, giving me nearly 6" of clamping capacity. It also limits the benchtop clamping force to the strength which the vise is attached to the bench. I used 5 each 1/2"x6" bench bolts http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=31147&cat=1,41637 any it is rock-solid. It would likely be solid with less but I wasn't taking any chances. <g>

The biggest plus (and minus) of the L-N vise is that it mounts to the underside of the bench using lag screws. Thus, when using dogs, there is no force on the rear jaw - benchtop connection. In exchange, (short of inserting shimming blocks) your between-jaws clamping depth is limited by the thickness of your bench.

Just my $0.02... YMMV.

Feel free to PM me or post additional questions here.

Jim

[ian maybury]

I've been looking at vises Mike in the context of an upcoming Roubo build. The big differences between the Veritas and the Moxon that I'm conscious of are (a) the extra height and flexibility of location (and configuration) of the Moxon, (b) the coupling of the screws and the possibility of using dogs with the Veritas, and (c) the Moxon isn't going to be much use to clamp a part that's deep front to back. Both will presumably skew/clamp over a moderate taper.

I'm about to fit a Veritas twin screw on the LH face of my bench Jim, and have been digging around in this question of the differences between it and the Lie Nielsen - I got to see the LN in the flesh only a couple of weeks ago. Apart from the flexibility you mention the Veritas giving on jaw depth, the other difference I guess is that the long engagement of the nut(s) on the LN screws means that it can't skew like the Veritas - which also means that the moving jaw should be less inclined to sag at wide openings such as when using dogs in it.

How much of an issue do you think is sagging/lifting likely to be on the Veritas, and how effective is the support block under the bench top they propose as a means of preventing this happening while leaving it free to skew in the horizontal?

It'd in one way be a pity to lose this skewing ability (but by no means a show stopper), but I have a couple of extra nuts for the Veritas (they can be bought as spares, and only cost a few $) which could easily be doubled up with the existing items mounted in the back jaw (either flange to flange, or with washers as spacers and longer bolts if needed) to reduce sag or lifting - much like the way the LN uses a long nut/threaded sleeve, presumably for the same purpose.

Can you see any downsides to this from your experience, or is the stock deal OK?

ian

[James Hamilton]

It sure is a sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet vise. But pricey!

[Eric Brown]

Perhaps the biggest difference between these two types of vises is the final heigth. A bench mounted vice is bench high.
The Moxon is mounted higher on top of the bench, which allows better control when doing dovetails and such.
Another way to achieve this is with an Adjust-a-Bench set of legs. Now all your vises and benchtop can be at optimal heigth.

Eric

[Scott T Smith]

Guys, have you checked out the Hovarter vise? Chris Schwartz had a write up about it on his blog a while back and it looks like the best quick release vise available.

http://www.hovartercustomvise.com/?page_id=109

When I build my Roubo, I think that this will be the vise that I use for it.

Scott

[Mike Holbrook]

The Hovarter looks very interesting, a quick release 24" twin screw that can skew & is easy to install, what's not to like! I checked out the web site and the reviews. All the reviews seem to be back in 2010 before anyone had one. I don't find any true tests or evaluations of production models which makes me a little shy.

In regard to a Moxon having a height advantage I'm not sure why that is the case. The only reason I see the Moxon having that advantage has to do with it being mounted on the top of the table. It seems to me that a bench on bench or table clamped in the same position on the bench would provide the same support at that height. The only issue being the clamping jaws being a little lower, which only seems to me to be an issue with a very short work piece. If the work piece is that short it probably does not need a double screw anyway.

[daniel lane]

It doesn't answer your question, Mike, but for others and to introduce a different thought process to the discussion, I just ordered Moxon hardware from Benchcrafted so I could build a stand-alone Moxon vise for my current (benchless*) workshop. I bought it because I figured when I finally build the Roubo that I'm planning, I can either keep the Moxon separate or integrate it into the end of the bench - I intend to build 24" wide. Since the large metal woodworking vise I bought a year ago won't mount on my bench**, I'm stuck with a hunk of metal in a box (I'm sure there's a statute of limitations on LV returns) and no vise. This will be my compromise.


daniel


* No woodworking benches in the whole workshop. No workholding capability. No dogs, no face vise, no end vise, nothing. Makes me cry, which in turn causes my chisels to rust. LOML is trying to convince me to make a trip to LA for the kids to visit an aquarium and so I can buy lumber to build a Roubo, so it isn't all bad, I just need the money for lumber and the time to build a Roubo.

** Okay, okay, okay! I have benches, but not real benches. Remember, no work-holding capability. I have a couple of flat 24x96 "benches" I bought a Costco a few years ago that are perfect for my mini lathe and for non-woodworking stuff, and I have a 24x60 outfeed table that I built that is a good height for woodworking...but again, no work-holding. I usually use a 12" hand-screw clamp that is in turn clamped to the outfeed table to hold anything vertical, but that's obviously limiting for any real work.

[Mike Holbrook]

Daniel, I was also looking at the Benchcrafted hardware for a Moxon vise, even called to make sure they were in stock. Then I discovered the jaw capacity of the vise using that hardware is about 2 1/4". I would like to be able to put drawers and other larger objects in my twin screw vise. This and some other realizations got me started thinking about the limitations of a mobile vise and some advantages of a fixed vise. Mobile sounds great until one actually has to make room, assemble and disassemble the devise a few times...

So I decided to weigh some other options.

[daniel lane]

Mike, you bring up a good point about jaw capacity - I decided I was willing to accept that for now and had kinda let that slip out of my mind when looking at integrating it as an end vise. Given that, I'll probably build something into the bench and keep the Moxon separate. Still, you aren't going to make me regret my purchase! ;)


daniel

[michael osadchuk]

I've had the LV twin screw vise on an end of my 31.5" bench for a decade. I got 7.75" throat width capacity with 2" outer jaws (not that I've ever used that much width but at that width, no sag or lift in the front jaws. Because my 3.25" thick benchtop is mounted on 7" high wood pillars resting on a salvaged angle iron framed machinist bench, I made the height of the jaws particularly large: there is 4.75" from the top of the jaws to the two 3/8" diameter steel dowel pins just above the screws. rear jaws are mounted to bench/wood pillars with two rows of 4 bolts that are 3/8" diameter. I know the skew capacity is there but I don't think I've ever used it.

If you get the LV twin screw, my experience is that the recommended 2 degrees of taper on the lower inside face of the front jaw - so that the top of jaws close first - is twice the amount needed.

I'm happy with it.

good luck

michael

[Mike Holbrook]

Daniel, sorry did not want to make you question your purchase. Like I said I almost bought it too. It was the demo of the Hovarter that stopped me cold. The part where he pulls the outside jaw out 12.5" by hand, shoves a drawer in and pushes the jaws together on the drawer tightening them with a partial turn of the handle. I was liking the Veritas Chain drive twin screw too, then found out about Lee-Nielsen's chain drive. I know the issues with the two chain drives as they are both pretty well tested out now.

I'm sure the Hovarter has its issues too. I am just not finding out what those may be as I can't seem to find a review by independent testers.The thing I am most concerned about on the Hovarter is the installation. There is a video by an independent who installed it for a financial consideration. It looks like there are some close construction tolerances for the Hovarter. I don't like the fact that there is no phone number to call regarding questions on the Hovarter. I am curious about what looks like a very short gear track which apparently tightens on one or both rods vs screws that the vise jaws travel on. Apparently the hand screw is for tightening the jaws and has little or nothing to do with moving the jaws. I am not so sure if I Like the idea of having to place the jaws by hand. In the demo it is shown as a quick adjustment feature like on quick release vise jaws. The difference is most vises do travel on their screws, via turning their screw handles.

I am passing on the last day of free shipping for the Veritas vise in favor of studying a little more on the LN vise and the Hovarter. Certainly my indecision will cost me money. Whether or not it will provide me any benefits or not remains to be seen.

[Mike Allen1010]

I've had a LV TS mounted as a face vice for several years - a couple thoughts to consider from my perspective: 1) I think the TS is a better fit as a face rather than as a tail vice. As a face vice the vertical racking/ sagging is not really an issue for me as I rarely use the FV with dogs. As a FV, the primary benefits of the TS are the between screws vertical clamping ability for working end grain, cutting genome and dovetails - also good capacity for holding long stock for edge joining.

If you're planning a bench 6 ' long or less, you might want to look hard @ the LN TS because the single handle is less in the way than the double handles on the LV TS. if you're bench is longer I think this is less of an issue. My current bench is 5' long and I find the the double handles frequently in the way.

I'm using large quick release for the tail vice on the Ruobo I'm currently building: the large surface area of the vice that allows you to bolt the vice directly to the underside of the bench is easier to install and less prone to sagging.